Anyone else disappointed with the AMD 3D-Vcache reveal?

[Vayra86]

Not last October either, I been looking for over a year. I dont think I recall saying this is just AMD either.

Sure, you've also had Brexit piling on? The point I'm trying to make here is that the current situation is not a norm. The market is the market, its not working differently, we're just in a situation that is unprecedented. A year is absolutely nothing in a relative sense to what economies do.

 

[birdie]

Some thoughts/speculations about Ryzen 3D:

• Looks like AMD never actually considered it and it was meant to be a stop-gap just in case
• AMD didn't know what to expect from ADL, so this CPU was a contingency plan to restore leadership no matter the cost
• Yes, the 3D version is faster in certain games, but they are a very specific workload, i.e. a ton of code, a lot of shuffling of textures around - it's far from certain that the Ryzen 3D will be faster in "normal" applications
• Considering the disclosed decrease in operating frequencies, looks like the additional 64MB 3D cache is quite a power hog
• This is quite a new tech, so probably yields are not where AMD what them to be, i.e. the margins on this CPU have turned out to be quite slim
• Lastly Zen 4/Ryzen 7000 comes soon enough, so maybe investing in a whole dead end lineup of CPUs is not financially justified

I'm not disappointed at all to be honest. I want AMD to invest their resources in Zen 4/Ryzen 7000.

 

[Bomby569]

I'm not disappointed at all to be honest. I want AMD to invest their resources in Zen 4/Ryzen 7000.

Oh come on, if you can make 5800X3D you can make a 5600X3D without any more work, it would be a good tool against ADL and can't see why that would take any resources for anything else. And it would be a best selling chip. This is giving Intel a break.

 

[EzioAs]

Oh come on, if you can make 5800X3D you can make a 5600X3D without any more work, it would be a good tool against ADL and can't see why that would take any resources for anything else. And it would be a best selling chip. This is giving Intel a break.

AMD most certainly has crunched the numbers (their Zen 4 performance vs their current CPUs/ADL, projection of sales, etc) and made the financially wise decision to shift resources into Zen 4. If they're not worried about how much ADL will retake some market share, they won't be releasing much more Zen 3D CPUs, if any.

 

[Bomby569]

AMD most certainly has crunched the numbers (their Zen 4 performance vs their current CPUs/ADL, projection of sales, etc) and made the financially wise decision to shift resources into Zen 4. If they're not worried about how much ADL will retake some market share, they won't be releasing much more Zen 3D CPUs, if any.

what is the "resource shifting" in releasing a 5600X3D when you already developed a 5800X3D?

You should always be worried when you lose a customer to the competition, if you aren't you are a poor manager.

 

[londiste]

Some thoughts/speculations about Ryzen 3D:

• Yes, the 3D version is faster in certain games, but they are a very specific workload, i.e. a ton of code, a lot of shuffling of textures around - it's far from certain that the Ryzen 3D will be faster in "normal" applications
• This is quite a new tech, so probably yields are not where AMD what them to be, i.e. the margins on this CPU have turned out to be quite slim

- As would be expected, memory intensive games benefit. Watch Dogs Legion as a specific example comes to mind. It has also responded quite well to faster memory - maybe even more from additional bandwidth and less from reduced latency.
- Yields are not really the issue here. CCD is the same 5800X as it has always been, DRAM yields quite well and the die is small. Packaging, testing and all that will add some additional costs to production.

what is the "resource shifting" in releasing a 5600X3D when you already developed a 5800X3D?

Adding 3D Cache is additional cost. There is good reason to assume it does not make sense for lower SKU like 5600X. Especially when 5600X continues to be overpriced and Alder Lake is going to bring competition (apparently from the reviews popping up quite a strong competition for less money).

 

[Bomby569]

Adding 3D Cache is additional cost. There is good reason to assume it does not make sense for lower SKU like 5600X. Especially when 5600X continues to be overpriced and Alder Lake is going to bring competition (apparently from the reviews popping up quite a strong competition for less money).

No shit is additional cost, it's also additional value. The biggest seller is the 3600/5600, making just the 5800X3D is just flexing so intel can't have the flag, it will bring no benefits.
The part of AMD overpricing products i hope it's because they can, because if they can't lower it on account of costs they are screwed. Releasing the 5600 and bringing price down that would be a smart move to fight alder lake now.

 

[freeagent]

I listed my 5900X twice locally.. good thing I didn’t take the lowball offers lol. I am a little disappointed, but that’s ok.

 

[Wirko]

Some thoughts/speculations about Ryzen 3D:

• Looks like AMD never actually considered it and it was meant to be a stop-gap just in case
• AMD didn't know what to expect from ADL, so this CPU was a contingency plan to restore leadership no matter the cost
• Yes, the 3D version is faster in certain games, but they are a very specific workload, i.e. a ton of code, a lot of shuffling of textures around - it's far from certain that the Ryzen 3D will be faster in "normal" applications
• Considering the disclosed decrease in operating frequencies, looks like the additional 64MB 3D cache is quite a power hog
• This is quite a new tech, so probably yields are not where AMD what them to be, i.e. the margins on this CPU have turned out to be quite slim
• Lastly Zen 4/Ryzen 7000 comes soon enough, so maybe investing in a whole dead end lineup of CPUs is not financially justified

I'm not disappointed at all to be honest. I want AMD to invest their resources in Zen 4/Ryzen 7000.

Can't agree on the first point - the Zen 3 CCD was designed from the start to allow cache expansion, this can't be done as an afterthought (and AMD confirmed it - I think Anand mentioned it).

The 5800X3D is probably also a test vehicle for TSMC, AMD and potential users of the same technology in the HPC and server world. TSMC is hard at work improving yields, this is their first mass deployment of their cow (chip-on-wafer) as far as I'm aware. The users can experiment and learn how to make best use of the giant cache so when TR and Epyc are available, they will know if they need it or not. And AMD, if nothing else, has to master the binning process, more complex than before. I imagine binning is done by AMD, and selected chips are sent back to TSMC, who then thins them down and mounts the cache and spacers on top.

 

[londiste]

No shit is additional cost, it's also additional value. The biggest seller is the 3600/5600, making just the 5800X3D is just flexing so intel can't have the flag, it will bring no benefits.

5800X3D is a flex. That is the benefit
5600X is priced to just under $€£300. The primary threat to 5600X today is imminent 12400F which is likely to end up at the same ~$€£190 price point as its predecessor. 5600X3D against that seems to be a tall order. Sure, we would like it and at competitive price, but it makes no sense for AMD financially.

 

[R0H1T]

The biggest seller is the 3600/5600, making just the 5800X3D is just flexing so intel can't have the flag, it will bring no benefits.

You really think it will be priced anywhere close to 3600

 

[Bomby569]

Sure, we would like it and at competitive price, but it makes no sense for AMD financially.

Since the 10400 Intel has been realeasing mid range cpu's that can compete and even outbeat the amd ones and are cheaper. If AMD can make the most amazing CPU's but can't bring the price down, then they are f***

 

[cst1992]

If you took the ambitious leaks at face value then I could see why it would be a surprise. Nothing has changed with chiplet Zen 3 except for the addition of cache, and this refresh doesn't get that much time on the market. Bottom line is, 2022 has always belonged to AM5 if AMD intends to stay on track.

Rocket Lake was also in the same boat timeline-wise, but OEM's needed new stuff, so they had to release a [relatively] full i5/i7/i9 lineup as a stopgap. But otherwise, same deal.

The -200MHz boost clock deficit feels like AMD is trying to present the 5800X3D only as a technology demonstrator only.

My concern is more over what the -200MHz means. Is the L3 that power-hungry that it digs into the CCD power? Are they trying to limit the 5800X's performance on purpose (not likely, Zen 3 doesn't scale much on freq in games)? Or does the 3D cache + thermal spacer over the core area cause a thermals problem over the 5800X's already poor thermals (so far L3 seems to run relatively cool on my 5900X since HWInfo added sensors)? That might be really telling about how AM5 behaves thermally.

I never intended to go for a 5800x since it's expensive and a power hog. The 5600x, by comparison, is very power-efficient and performs no worse in games that only use 6 cores.

 

[GerKNG]

which will rival the i9 12900K.

in what universe?

 

[INSTG8R]

Just that I would have considered a 5600 version

 

[Bomby569]

in what universe?

there's some numbers only for 1080p

The Ryzen 7 5800X3D is designed to be the ‘World’s Fastest Gaming Processor’ (when compared to the 5900X and 12900K).
In terms of those performance metrics, AMD is quoting:

• From 1.0x to 1.4x at 1080p High vs Ryzen 9 5900X + RTX3080 (15% average)
• From 0.98x to 1.2x at 1080p High vs Core i9-12900K (DDR5) + RTX3080

AMD CPUs in 2022: Zen 4 in Second Half, Ryzen 7 5800X3D with V-Cache by Spring

www.anandtech.com

 

[Deleted member 24505]

there's some numbers only for 1080p

The Ryzen 7 5800X3D is designed to be the ‘World’s Fastest Gaming Processor’ (when compared to the 5900X and 12900K).
In terms of those performance metrics, AMD is quoting:

• From 1.0x to 1.4x at 1080p High vs Ryzen 9 5900X + RTX3080 (15% average)
• From 0.98x to 1.2x at 1080p High vs Core i9-12900K (DDR5) + RTX3080

AMD CPUs in 2022: Zen 4 in Second Half, Ryzen 7 5800X3D with V-Cache by Spring

www.anandtech.com

Until there are real tests, it is nothing more than speculation.

 

[Deleted member 202104]

I can't be disappointed or excited about the performance because all we have at this point is AMD's marketing numbers.

I'm disappointed that it's only the 5800x3d, though. First, the 5800x was a CPU I couldn't get rid of fast enough, and second, I was hoping for a full lineup so that I could pick up a used 3950x/5950x at a discount from upgraders.

 

[529th]

Great! Can't wait for better gaming performance with drop in chip! I'll have a direct comparison with my 5800X. I just hope the IF will be stronger with this one and allow for higher 1:1 speeds

 

[Deleted member 24505]

I can't be disappointed or excited about the performance because all we have at this point is AMD's marketing numbers.

I'm disappointed that it's only the 5800x3d, though. First, the 5800x was a CPU I couldn't get rid of fast enough, and second, I was hoping for a full lineup so that I could pick up a used 3950x/5950x at a discount from upgraders.

Why did you dump the 5800x? if you don't mind me asking.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Some thoughts/speculations about Ryzen 3D:

• Looks like AMD never actually considered it and it was meant to be a stop-gap just in case
• AMD didn't know what to expect from ADL, so this CPU was a contingency plan to restore leadership no matter the cost
• Yes, the 3D version is faster in certain games, but they are a very specific workload, i.e. a ton of code, a lot of shuffling of textures around - it's far from certain that the Ryzen 3D will be faster in "normal" applications
• Considering the disclosed decrease in operating frequencies, looks like the additional 64MB 3D cache is quite a power hog
• This is quite a new tech, so probably yields are not where AMD what them to be, i.e. the margins on this CPU have turned out to be quite slim
• Lastly Zen 4/Ryzen 7000 comes soon enough, so maybe investing in a whole dead end lineup of CPUs is not financially justified

I'm not disappointed at all to be honest. I want AMD to invest their resources in Zen 4/Ryzen 7000.

Microsoft did a bunch of cloud / high-performance-compute tests with the Milan-X CPUs (aka: the V-cache server chip).

Azure HBv3 virtual machines for HPC, now up to 80 percent faster with AMD Milan-X CPUs | Microsoft Azure Blog

We are announcing that a private preview is now live for Azure HBv3 virtual machines enhanced by AMD EPYC 3rd Gen processors with 3D v-cache, codenamed “Milan-X”. These processors significantly improve the performance, scaling efficiency, and cost-effectiveness of a variety of memory...

azure.microsoft.com

The improvements were anywhere from 0% to 78% faster. The 0% improvement benchmarks were not in the above graphic, they were mentioned in the article though.

Performance & Scalability of HBv3 VMs with Milan-X CPUs | Microsoft Community Hub

Article contributed by Amirreza Rastegari, Jon Shelley, Jithin Jose, Evan Burness, and Aman Verma A Preview program for Azure HBv3 VMs enhanced with...

techcommunity.microsoft.com

In particular, the NAMD benchmarks showed basically no improvement at all from the VCache.

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It should be noted that "VCache" is another die added on-top of the CPU-cores. Its a chip-on-a-chiplet design. As far as yields go, that's a huge advantage. Props to TSMC for making cheap and effective "die-glue" technologies.

 

[Deleted member 202104]

Why did you dump the 5800x? if you don't mind me asking.

I sold it because the 5800x is what everyone thinks Intel CPUs are. Stock out of the box it's pushed to the absolute max. Total stock would thermal throttle (90c) on a Noctua NH-D15 on CB23. It could be tamed by reducing PPT, EDC, and TDC, but what's the point of spending $450 on a CPU that you have to essentially tweak down to make functional? Performance was fine, and for someone who wants to take the time working with PBO2 and CO it's pretty tweakable, but I really don't have the patience or time for that.

 

[outpt]

How can I be disappointed? Just bought a 5950x after selling off 2 cpus. I’ve lost all patience with gaming = gpus. Going to play with blender and other such stuff for a while.

 

[freeagent]

Going to play with blender and other such stuff for a while.

That's pretty much why I bought a 5900X. Couldn't buy a GPU, had cash to spare at the time.. why not? I had a heck of a lot of fun with it. A bunch of awesome guys here guided me on my AM4 journey. Heck I could drop my 5600X in and be about 75% as content

But it doesn't boost to 5GHz+ like this one does so... But my 5600X rips in the FCLK dept.. I may pick up one of these 5800X3D chips in an FCLK gamble

 

[Flyordie]

These two statements contradicts themselves.

If AMD is prioritizing AM5/Zen 4 over AM4 (which from a corporate standpoint, they probably are doing so), then it totally makes sense to shift resources, production and consumer focus on a newer platform (where consumers will have to spend more) instead of letting people spend less upgrading one single thing. Plus, if their slides are anything to go by, AMD probably doesn't feel the need to put so much pressure over Intel in such little time because the single Ryzen 7 5800X3D is probably enough to take back the gaming performance crown .

Maybe they are just testing the water with the 5800X3D? If it does well, maybe they'll do a 5950X3D? AM4 isn't a dead platform yet given the price of DDR5 and the price bumps on the AM5 platform due to it being new. Especially if they are retaining it on the 7nm process. Isn't AM5 stuff supposed to move to a newer node?