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anyone have experience with "Kinguin"? seems a bit TOO cheap to be legal to me.

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#76
Everything else you hear is morons who are clueless and engage in ignorant fearmongering.
i think its a bit ignorant (presumptuous)of You(respectfully) to assume if a user has a bad experience and tells other possible buyers ,they then are morons, or fear mongering. Sometimes people just report the facts to others(not saying there are NO bad apples , but certainly I wouldnt go to the other end of the spectrum as You have). Personally i cant say anything bad about this specific site, BUT i know for a fact others here can legitimately(i.e. based on Factual personal experience & not rumor), and I trust that they are not all fear mongering. Maybe You should try to put the same faith You do in shady key reselling sites, to the users who patronize them(unless you work for this site ofc ,in which case it would explain your "one sidedness"). :rolleyes:
 
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Jon Wade

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#77
it's definitely not "illegal" I've never heard someone get arrested for it.
Also you can openly buy a game from the Canada steam shop where its 15% cheaper, and send it to a friend in the USA.
or you can buy the game, and decide to sell it to whoever will buy it. They are region free regions, just cheaper.
So technically they dont have regional restrictions to begin with.

Also tons of codes come form bundles and such, so called leftovers. People are free to sell the products they bought and own.

The ignorant fearmongering is people who think that kinguin is a shop selling "stolen" keys.

As for the revoke thing Qubit mentioned, like I said kinguin will refund you even if your code gets revoked years down the line.

Edit: @jboy, as I said by igorant fearmongering I am refering to poeple who do not even understand what kinguin is, ie, a platform. They assume its some shady shop stealing keys all over the net and selling them to people.
and I am not one sided at all, nor work for anyone. I'm just giving my opinion base don my experience and understanding.

The fact that selling out of region is illegal is not "ignorant fearmongering." Almost all the keys there are at the very best case, being sold from a cheaper region to a more expensive one.
 
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#78
it's definitely not "illegal" I've never heard someone get arrested for it.
I think that's why the word "shady" gets used a lot in conjunction with key reselling sites. As you pointed out people don't tend to get arrested for circumventing tax charges/laws at least not for such small amounts as were speaking about. However, it certainly doesn't help a store look legitimate when they operate in the so called gray zone. For example I wouldn't trust kingwin over steam not even over green man gaming or humble bundle. Because they don't resell keys , which by nature has a certain "shady" vibe to it. To be fair it's not the site in particular it's the business. For example, a company that sells porn may seem slimy and perverted, but if you were to remove the porn it would just be a retailer. My point is if you play in the mud your hands are going to get dirty. What the store ends up offering in the end is just the medium in which to sell the keys aka, facilitation(as you said like Ebay), and the Guarantee that said keys wont be voided, or someway taken from you after purchase (since you are buying it from private sellers and not the site itself), and there are people who are willing to risk buying a key and trusting a site to back that purchase , and there are people who arent willing to trust the site. Personally, i have been burned by Other sites like them, so i avoid all resellers, but thats my choice, and my right, if your cool with ptting your faith in them to honor the transaction, then you'll save a few bucks on a game (as long as your faith wasnt misplaced OFC).
 
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Jon Wade

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#79
Absolutely. At the end of the day those places you mentioned are actual shops selling at their own responsibilities and guarantees. Which you pay extra for.
Kinguin and other "grey markets" are just like ebay. its the average joe selling his stuff. the vast majority is totally fine. on a very rare occasion you'll get a crook, but the site will protect and support you in those cases.
That is my experience. up to you whether you want to buy from a source you feel comfortable with or pay 40-50% less form those.
But to say that it is a shop run by some kind of theft mob and spread that around shows a total lack of understanding.

I think that's why the word "shady" gets used a lot in conjunction with key reselling sites. As you pointed out people don't tend to get arrested for circumventing tax charges/laws at least not for such a small amounts as were speaking about. However, it certainly doesn't help a store look legitimate when they operate in the so called gray zone. For example I wouldn't trust kingwin over steam not even over green man gaming or humble bundle. Because they don't resell keys , which by nature has a certain "shady" vibe to it. To be fair it's not the site in particular it's the business. For example, a company that sells porn may seem slimy and perverted, but if you were to remove the porn it would just be a retailer. My point is if you play in the mud your hands are going to get dirty
 

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#80
The ignorant fearmongering is people who think that kinguin is a shop selling "stolen" keys.
They did. Ubisoft and EA both revoked massive blocks of keys that were purchased with stolen credit cards a while back.

And really, that's beside the point. Who makes games? Developers. Does buying gray market get any money into the hands of the developers? Not likely. There is no "used" in the digital market. Gray market is as bad as piracy as far as the health of the market is concerned.

Gray market never reveals its sources but the above links strongly suggest most of their keys come from laundering dirty money.
 
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Jon Wade

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#81
Some devs sell on kinguin actually. Others do have profit sharing schemes with them. But those are outliers.
Devs might not make money from the resale, but they make it from the initial sale. And that beats torrenting it if nothing else.
I am just playing devils advocate here. I'm not saying grey markets are the best thing, nor do i think they're all bad. if they exist at all, they must be balancing something out.
Wholesalers buy at much lower cost and resell with profit. Not much different.

And referring to your EA example, They, Kinguin, didnt sell those keys. Thats th epoint I am trying to make. Someone sold them on that site.
And they got nothing out of it, other than FBI attention.
They cant cash out for 30 days after the sale, and all their personal information are on file with kinguin.

They did. Ubisoft and EA both revoked massive blocks of keys that were purchased with stolen credit cards a while back.

And really, that's beside the point. Who makes games? Developers. Does buying gray market get any money into the hands of the developers? Not likely. There is no "used" in the digital market. Gray market is as bad as piracy as far as the health of the market is concerned.
 
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#82
it's definitely not "illegal" I've never heard someone get arrested for it.
How many people get arrested for piracy vs the actual crime rate of it?

You know the point I'm getting at. You don't have to be arrested for something for it to be illegal. Fact is it is a violation of the EULA they signed, and thus illegal. There is no debate there, at least for MS keys.
 

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#83
They did. Ubisoft and EA both revoked massive blocks of keys that were purchased with stolen credit cards a while back.

And really, that's beside the point. Who makes games? Developers. Does buying gray market get any money into the hands of the developers? Not likely. There is no "used" in the digital market. Gray market is as bad as piracy as far as the health of the market is concerned.

Gray market never reveals its sources but the above links strongly suggest most of their keys come from laundering dirty money.
I mean to be fair finding a good fence is hard. If you know one drop me a PM.
 
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#84
Personally, I think region restrictions should be illegal, so I'd have no moral problem buying a cheaper so-called "out of region" key.
I agree, but the threads title does not ask if this is moral, only "legal."
 

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#85
It is not illegal though. I've never heard of that being a crime.
Besides that, There are no regional restrictions, the games are region free.
If I live in Canada where my games are priced at $30. I buy a bunch of them and post them on kinguin for $35. The European bought it from me cause it cost $40 in Europe.
What exactly have I done that is illegal there?

Steam allows you to trade games, it happens daily by the millions.
Someone in canada will trade you a steam gift for your CSGO skins (which you buy with cash)
it is completely legit to do that.

I agree, but the threads title does not ask if this is moral, only "legal."
 
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#86
Most of the keys are Steam, right?
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/
F. Steam Authorized Resellers

You may purchase a Subscription through an authorized reseller of Valve. The "Product Key" accompanying such purchase will be used to activate your Subscription. If you purchase a Subscription from an authorized reseller of Valve, you agree to direct all questions regarding the Product Key to that reseller.
Unauthorized resellers (Kinguin, G2A, etc.) violate Steam's Subscriber Agreement. That's a contract which can be enforced by a court of law.

Gray market is legal because, as far as I'm aware, it does not break laws (copyright, theft of property, etc.).
 

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#87
Which part says this about unauthorized resellers in the SSA? I didnt see it.
Also, you are allowed to trade steam gifts. it is totally legit to do that. Millions of people do it on a daily basis in steam itself.
The word trade is used, but it is in fact a sale. I am buying this game with CSGO keys or skins which I have purchased with money, those are marketable items with cash value.
Steam doesnt mind that resale cause they get a cut of the transaction heh, but steam is kinguin in this scenario.


Most of the keys are Steam, right?
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Unauthorized resellers (Kinguin, G2A, etc.) violate Steam's Subscriber Agreement. That's a contract which can be enforced by a court of law.

Gray market is legal because, as far as I'm aware, it does not break laws (copyright, theft of property, etc.).
 

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#88
It's through omission. Valve is under no obligation to honor any key obtained through unauthorized means.

There's a section of the SSA expressly for trading. Specifically, you can only trade within the Steam platform itself. Valve will not honor any trades made outside of Steam. If money is involved, it has to go through the market where fees and taxes are collected.
 
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#89
I'm almost certain that somewhere in the websites user agreement ,it says that the buyer is obligated to know their own countries laws on the purchase of resold keys ,and that no responsibility is accepted on behalf of the site for any transgression made during an illegal transaction. I'm sure that it is very much like amazon, except on Amazon if an item you're trying to purchase is illegal in your particular country or region you are physically unable to make the purchase and that's exactly what kingwin does not do,because if they did the whole Lure of the site would be lost(i.e cheap keys). Which means they facilitate illegal purchases in essence
 
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Jon Wade

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#90
Maybe thats how you saw it through omission, but laws are clearly written.
Right, thats exactly it. Valve wants you to resell within steam so they can get a cut on both sides, but you are reselling none the less.
And of course valve frowns upon you reselling outside of its boundaries. Cause their platform doesnt profit.
But this related to their own business, not in the realm of law.

And they can easily stop it but they dont. Checkout Opskins.com making millions out of resale of steam items. nobody bats an eye.

Pretty sure Valve will not let you trade money in a trade. It's always digital item for digital item. If money is involved, it has to go through the market where fees and taxes are collected.
Skins ARE money. they are marketable. you can even put them on steam market or elsewhere like on opskins and get cash money out of them. Just like you buy them for money. What is the difference?

And no it is not enforceable in a court of law, or else half the steam users would be in court, because they are the ones selling on G2A and kinguin. The best that can happen is your steam account being locked, which has never ever happened for a resale.

It's through omission. Valve is under no obligation to honor any key obtained through unauthorized means.

There's a section of the SSA expressly for trading. Specifically, you can only trade within the Steam platform itself. Valve will not honor any trades made outside of Steam. It's a market Valve controls completely.

Pretty sure Valve will not let you trade money in a trade. It's always digital item for digital item. If money is involved, it has to go through the market where fees and taxes are collected.
 
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#91
no mate there isnt. if it were they would lock all the regions. it would take them 5min to do so. EU, NA among others are left region free. It means the games can be redeemed anywhere in the world.

I get games from a friedn in Canada on Steam itself and he trades them to me for sometimes $10 - $15 cheaper than in the EU, cause they are cheaper there. I do that within steam itself. in a trade window.
All the regions are region free and trade among them is allowed.
Kinguin is also offering region free games. you cannot buy a cheap indian steam game even if you do you wont be able to redeem it on steam. It doesnt work this way. Not since early 2014 anyway.


I'm almost certain that somewhere in the websites user agreement ,it says that the buyer is obligated to know their own countries laws on the purchase of resold keys ,and that no responsibility is accepted on behalf of the site for any transgression made during an illegal transaction.
 
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#92
Click on anything at opskins.com and it says you need Steam installed. I assume they take a cut off the top of Valve's and the publisher's cut. In other words, they're an unnecessary middleman.

no mate there isnt. if it were they would lock all the regions. it would take them 5min to do so. EU, NA among others are left region free. It means the games can be redeemed anywhere in the world.
Because keys purchased in EU and NA tend to be the most expensive in the world. If someone buys it in the USA and gifts it to someone in India, they made more off the US purchase than had it sold in India.


As demonstrated, many big publishers have revoked massive blocks of keys for various reasons. Those are not keys that were purchased through authorized resellers or Valve directly. Generally, they don't revoke keys because they fear the public backlash for doing so.
 

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#93
Well you need Steam installed for steam games too.
not sure I got your point.

Yeah and those are the same keys sold on kinguin and elsewhere. They are region free ones.
Again not sure I get your point.

You cant sell a game you bought in india to someone in the USA, they wont be able to redeem it. Therefore they wont get paid for it.


There are still often large disparities in price between NA keys.
Like Canada and USA for example. Both region free both NA, but price difference.

Click on anything at opskins.com and it says you need Steam installed. I assume they take a cut off the top of Valve's and the publisher's cut. In other words, they're an unnecessary middleman.


Because keys purchased in EU and NA tend to be the most expensive in the world. If someone buys it in the USA and gifts it to someone in India, they made more off the US purchase than had it sold in India.
 

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#94
You can trade without Steam installed but you require a Steam account and agreement with the SSA before you can trade, no matter the medium.

Not sure what you're point is either. I merely confirmed that what SSA says is true: even sites that work outside of Steam still require agreement with SSA. It is Valve's ecosystem. Valve keeps a ironfist on SSA trades. It's game trades which are left up to the discretion of individual publishers where policy is more lax which, in turn, allows gray market sites to exist.
 
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#95
I have almost 400 games on Steam alone not including the other platforms and I'd say at least 75% were bought on G2play. I've had one "bad" key for ME3 out of all of them.
 

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#96
Well i got 6447 games on steam, and about 200 were purchased in my own steam country shop :)
the rest is trades, kinguin and others.
In fact I've started with $50 in 2012. And I never paid a single dollar out of pocket since.
Every game I own is profit on trades.
I am absolute pro in steam games trading, and I know Steam, SSA, Kinguin, and trading inside out.

I have almost 400 games on Steam alone not including the other platforms and I'd say at least 75% were bought on G2play. I've had one "bad" key for ME3 out of all of them.