• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Apple Introduces 27-inch iMac with Retina 5K Display

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
But they're saving tons of cash by buying <$500 machines instead of >$1000 machines. You have to encounter a lot of problems across a lot of machines for Apple to catch up.
<500 dollar machines are slow and clunky. Do they have SSDs? Are they light? Is their battery life >11 hours? Are drivers available for something other than Windows 8.1? There are a lot of "ifs" when it comes to PCs and that list of ifs is practically nonexistent with Macs. The simple fact is that you're not going to get build quality of a Mac out of a <500 USD laptop. Productivity costs money too and if the machine is slow, that's lost time. My father works at a windows shop and while it might be the incomptency of management, but even their new Windows machines are crap and never work right from the employee's point of view. Clearly that's not the case across the board, but I can say it absolute certainty that out of the box, a 500 USD PC laptop will never equate to a 1100 USD Air. You won't even see a modern i5 in a laptop with an SSD until you hit at least 700 USD and even still most of them are refurbished. All in all, it's more realistic you'll be paying ~800-900 USD for the same thing, which is a a smaller difference than half the price.

I'm not going to have this discussion with you if you pull numbers out of nowhere or compare a cheap PC with a HDD to an Air with PCI-E SSD. Compare apples to apples and you won't have a PC worth 500 USD when you putting it up against a modern Air.

I also think you missed the part where I said educational institutions also get a discount from Apple so it's not even like it's expensive as you think it is. 950-1000 is realistic for us and a 200 USD gap is worth the quality Apple provides for their hardware and software.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Core i5, doubt it because their only purpose in life is to turn on and connect to a mainframe, very, no because they're ITX desktops that never move unless they behave badly, and they all have Windows 7 Professional and I'm sure HP provides drivers for Windows 8 and 8.1.

"Ifs" are a good thing because they're tailor-made for the client. The one-size-fits-all mentality of Apple disgusts me.
 
Last edited:

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
The one-size-fits-all mentality of Apple disgusts me.
Our employees move around a lot and can work from home. Laptops are required. Also for my institution not everything is done on a main server.

What disgusts me is that you complain about how apple makes one size fit all but can't seem to make a half decent argument about how its bad other than the fact that your biased against and are are disgusted by it, but I've seen that to work in our case so it's clearly your own bias.

We're clearly not going to see eye to eye on this as your bias and unfounded loathing seems to be the only thing you care about.

You should really stop talking like everyone has the same exact needs as you.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Apple doesn't make a computer for me, they never have, and they most likely never will. I don't fit in Apple's "all" category. Then there's people with Mac's asking me to fix them and my response is, "nope, sorry, only Apple can do that for you."

Edit: Apple doesn't even sell a computer that can hold three hard drives, nevermind six, anymore.
 
Last edited:

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
Apple doesn't make a computer for me, they never have, and they most likely never will; hence, I don't fit in Apple's "all" category.
Once again, the explanation of this is sketchy at best. I think you're like my co-worker and just doesn't like the interface and as a result you let that spill over into everything else about Apple.

I understand you don't like Apple, a lot of people are that way, but I would make sure your bashing it for the right reasons and in all seriousness, for me it's just the price tag that makes it really any different and the UI is all that is impacts in terms of usability from any other computer.

I prefer Linux, but I can do my job in Windows, OS X, or Linux just as well. So I can accept you saying you don't like the GUI, the price tag, or the compatibility with Windows software, but in so many instances, an Apple product will work just as well as a PC (from a usage perspective). When I hear something like your quote I included above, I hear "I do something because I've always done something," which leads me to think its really the GUI and OS you don't like when the product in reality can do so much a PC can do and the reality of it is that you just don't want to use it to do whatever you have to do.

I don't say this to start an argument, but I really don't understand what about Apple products you dislike so much because you haven't said anything concrete as to why other than "I hate one size fits all". That's not an answer, that's being stubborn.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
My graphics card is bigger than the Mac Mini so all that leaves is the Mac Pro which has FirePro cards and a $3000 price tag. I'm expecting to spend about 2/3s that price in a year, getting a single card that's at least as fast as those two combined, having no less than two hard drives and a solid state disk, an optical drive, a ATSC/NTSC TV tuner, and a sound card for driving 5.1 speakers (must support stereo surround) in addition to being capable of driving headphones.

Edit: Doesn't even look like it could drive my second monitor and that...would suck.
 

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
My graphics card is bigger than the Mac Mini so all that leaves is the Mac Pro which has FirePro cards and a $3000 price tag. I'm expecting to spend about 2/3s that price in a year, getting a single card that's at least as fast as those two combined, having no less than two hard drives and a solid state disk, an optical drive, a ATSC/NTSC TV tuner, and a sound card for driving 5.1 speakers (must support stereo surround) in addition to being capable of driving headphones.
Then really, you should be saying: Apple is one size fits all except for gamers. I've always acknowledged that to be the case, but when it comes to audio, Apple as an OS is light years ahead of Windows. Apple doesn't just let you play audio in just about any surround configuration you want, it lets you stream the same audio to multiple devices and with different combinations of streams on devices all at once. Windows support for stream and device mixing is piss poor. Also it's not unrealistic to say you could get a USB 3.0 ATSC tuner.

I could tell OS X to play one stream to audio device A and B, stream two to B C, stream three to A, B, and C, and 3 more streams on each device. On top of that a microphone input might be routed direct to the output of another device. Try doing that in Windows without any extra software. I know PulseAudio can do stuff like that, but you need to really know what you're doing to get it to work.

I completely understand the video card bit though. I would never buy a Mac to play video games, but audio mixing would be a huge reason to have a Mac IMHO, not for the hardware but for the OS.

Edit: Doesn't even look like it could drive my second monitor and that...would suck.
New Mac Minis have two mDP, it can drive 2 non-Apple displays no problem. Even the old ones could do two displays, one HDMI, on mDP, so as long as you're not using VGA on an older Mac Mini, you'd be fine.

Also the newest Mac Mini have two mDP plus HDMI and an option for Intel Iris. The CPUs can display 3 devices including the HD 4400 and up, I don't know if the Mini itself can though.
 
Last edited:

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Then really, you should be saying: Apple is one size fits all except for gamers. I've always acknowledged that to be the case, but when it comes to audio, Apple as an OS is light years ahead of Windows. Apple doesn't just let you play audio in just about any surround configuration you want, it lets you stream the same audio to multiple devices and with different combinations of streams on devices all at once. Windows support for stream and device mixing is piss poor. Also it's not unrealistic to say you could get a USB 3.0 ATSC tuner.
Then why does Mac Pro only have stereo 3.5mm plugs? They're basically admitting "we suck at audio, buy an external USB DAC." It, out of the box, can't even do stereo except via HDMI which implies a lot of huge external costs starting with a receiver to separate the audio from the video or a specialized monitor that does it for you. Since you seem to care about this streaming audio stuff, what am I going to stream it to? Why would I stream it to anything? Why wouldn't I just pull whatever song I want off my server and play it on any device, at any time, at my whim?

I need both and it is illegal to sell NTSC without ATSC.

I could tell OS X to play one stream to audio device A and B, stream two to B C, stream three to A, B, and C, and 3 more streams on each device. On top of that a microphone input might be routed direct to the output of another device. Try doing that in Windows without any extra software. I know PulseAudio can do stuff like that, but you need to really know what you're doing to get it to work.
As I thought, not useful to me. I could elaborate why but that is off topic. The fact my $400 speakers would be dormant in the name of that is insulting (directed at Apple).

I completely understand the video card bit though. I would never buy a Mac to play video games, but audio mixing would be a huge reason to have a Mac IMHO, not for the hardware but for the OS.
I like Audacity, thank you very much.

New Mac Minis have two mDP, it can drive 2 non-Apple displays no problem. Even the old ones could do two displays, one HDMI, on mDP, so as long as you're not using VGA on an older Mac Mini, you'd be fine.
Guess what? I need VGA. My KVM is DVI+VGA and I work on a lot of computers that are exclusively VGA (I know, this region is way behind the times).

Also the newest Mac Mini have two mDP plus HDMI and an option for Intel Iris. The CPUs can display 3 devices including the HD 4400 and up, I don't know if the Mini itself can though.
My current graphics card can do that with a lot more gusto behind it.


Edit: But whatever, this conversation has dragged on long enough.
 
Last edited:

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
Then why does Mac Pro only have stereo 3.5mm plugs? They're basically admitting "we suck at audio, buy an external USB DAC." It, out of the box, can't even do stereo except via HDMI which implies a lot of huge external costs starting with a receiver to separate the audio from the video or a specialized monitor that does it for you. Since you seem to care about this streaming audio stuff, what am I going to stream it to? Why would I stream it to anything? Why wouldn't I just pull whatever song I want off my server and play it on any device, at any time, at my whim?
They're saying integrated audio sucks, buy a DAC. I'm also saying what it can do. Also Apple works fine fine sending audio over HDMI, I don't see where you get evidence to the contrary.

I need both and it is illegal to sell NTSC without ATSC.
I never said it wasn't. I say ATSC as it's the newer standard. I assume an ATSC tuner supports NTSC.

As I thought, not useful to me. I could elaborate why but that is off topic. The fact my $400 speakers would be dormant in the name of that is insulting (directed at Apple).
I don't care if it's useful to you once again, the world doesn't resolve around you, Ford. It's useful for other people and it does let you drive speakers and headphones at the same time as you suggested, so it's not useless.
I like Audacity, thank you very much.
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/mac
Smart ass...

Guess what? I need VGA. My KVM is DVI+VGA and I work on a lot of computers that are exclusively VGA (I know, this region is way behind the times).
Then get a mDP to VGA adapter and stop complaining.
My current graphics card can do that with a lot more gusto behind it.
So can mine, that's not the point. You don't buy a Mac Mini for graphics power.

Can you give a response without making it attack? It's like you're taking this personally when you shouldn't...
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
*snip*

I never said it wasn't. I say ATSC as it's the newer standard. I assume an ATSC tuner supports NTSC.
Negative. ATSC + NTSC is referred to as a combo tuner. The two standards are in no way compatible with each other other than taking a signal and spitting out a channel.

*more snippage*

Then get a mDP to VGA adapter and stop complaining.
Or not get a Mac.
 
Last edited:

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
Negative. ATSC + NTSC is referred to as a combo tuner. The two standards are in no way compatible with each other other than taking a signal and spitting out a channel.
...but as you said, it's not legal to have one and not the other and ATSC is the newer standard that succeeded NTSC. Are you trying to create a circular argument about nothing?
*more snippage*
Or not get a Mac.
So that's what your argument boils down to. Lovely.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
What? Do you want more "smart ass" rebuttals? I thought I made myself clear:
-No room for at least 3 internal storage devices = deal breaker.
-No ability to drive 5.1 analog speakers = deal breaker.
-No capability to handle ATSC/NTSC over coaxial cable = deal breaker.
-No VGA support = deal breaker.
-No graphics card suitable for gaming = deal breaker.

Sure, you can argue most of that stuff can be external, plugged into the computer via Thunderbolt ports but not only are you then talking a price tag easily in excess of $5 grand, you're also talking about one hell of a mess on my desk that should be neatly contained in a case. The entire idea of it is ridiculous. Apple sells appliances, not personal computers.

...but as you said, it's not legal to have one and not the other and ATSC is the newer standard that succeeded NTSC. Are you trying to create a circular argument about nothing?
It is illegal to sell a NTSC tuner post-2009. The only way you can get a NTSC tuner is to buy a combo tuner which has ATSC + NTSC. I can't put it any more plainly than that.

Edit: Straight from the mouth of the lion:
FCC said:
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/kdb/forms/FTSSearchResultPage.cfm?id=27026&switch=P

The current schedule for DTV Tuner implementation is contained in Section 15.117(i), as amended by FCC Second Report and Order on Requirements for Digital Television Receiving Capability - released November 8, 2005 (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-190A1.pdf).

The rule requires that new television broadcast receivers shipped in interstate commerce or imported into the United States, must include DTV Tuners by the following dates:

By July 1, 2005, 100% of television receivers with screen sizes 36” and above and 50% of receivers with screen sizes 25” to 36” must include ATSC Tuners

By March 1, 2006, 100% of television receivers with screen sizes 25” to 36” must include ATSC Tuners.

By March 1, 2007, 100% of television receivers with screen sizes less than 25" and 100% of other video devices that receive television signals (e.g., VCRs, DVRs, and DVD recorders) must include ATSC Tuners.

The rules do not separate dates for manufacturing vs. shipped in interstate commerce, or imported into the United States. There is no FCC requirement to eliminate NTSC Tuners from televisions that include ATSC Tuners.
* There's a caveat that all TVs must include BOTH types of TV tuners. Devices like computer and DVR tuners only require ATSC. Case in point, my DishNetwork DVR has dual ATSC tuners, no NTSC.
 
Last edited:

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
-No ability to drive 5.1 analog speakers = deal breaker.
-No capability to handle ATSC/NTSC over coaxial cable = deal breaker.
-No VGA support = deal breaker.
Those aren't true... and USB adapters won't make it cost 5 grand. You make a point with internal storage and the graphics card, but the rest is nonsense and I've said it before, you don't buy a Mac for gaming. It's as simple as that but most people aren't play games, certainly not at work. The point is you have some very specific requirements that 99% of people won't have. Apple cares more about what the general public and businesses want, not what you want. Also, 3 drives is almost an argument for a NAS imho, but that's a different subject.

In all seriousness, it's not realistic to think Apple is thinking to themselves, "How do we make a cheap Mac Mini that suits all of Ford's needs." Seriously man, be realistic. Your demands aren't normal and Apple isn't going to cater to such a small group of people. There is no money in it, but that doesn't make Apple products bad...

It is illegal to sell a NTSC tuner post-2009. The only way you can get a NTSC tuner is to buy a combo tuner which has ATSC + NTSC. I can't put it any more plainly than that.
What the hell are you trying to say, Ford? I've been agreeing with you on this.
 
Last edited:

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
The only external USB sound card I found that was half way decent was made by Creative and Creative doesn't do stereo surround (which I why I abandoned them years ago). Tuner is a very limited selection and in my five minutes of Googling, I didn't find anything acceptable. Everything I clicked on and available to buy now was made for Windows. Mini DisplayPort to VGA costs about $20 and there's no saying if it will work with the KVM or not.

SSD = OS and fast access games
HDD1 = general applications and temp to reduce wear
HDD2 = Origin + Steam + GOG

Apple only moves 5 million Macs/year. Even Acer can beat Apple in that metric. Apple is Henry Ford of today: you can have any color you like so long as it is black. There's 54 million people like me that can never buy a Mac because it doesn't do anything useful to us and at a much steeper price at that.
 
Last edited:

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
The only external USB sound card I found that was half way decent was made by Creative and Creative doesn't do stereo surround (which I why I abandoned them years ago).
...but they do exist and you could get one.
Tuner is a very limited selection and in my five minutes of Googling, I didn't find anything acceptable.
Hmmmm. I see what you mean. Most of it's for over-the-air programming and not scrambled signals like what Comcast has. I see nothing capable of descrambling which is a PITA however I have seen some really nice boxes for recording HD video directly off inputs, but not what you want. :(
Mini DisplayPort to VGA costs about $20 and there's no saying if it will work with the KVM or not.
I think it would. We have a Mini at work in our rack and the adapter works fine with our VGA+USB KVM switch.
SSD = OS and fast access games
HDD1 = general applications
HDD2 = Origin + Steam + GOG
Our Mac Mini at work has two 500GB 2.5" drives in it, so an SSD + 1TB drive isn't unrealistic.
Apple only moves 5 million Macs/year. Even Lenovo can beat Apple in that metric. Apple is Henry Ford of today: you can have any color you like so long as it is black. There's 54 million people like me that can never buy a Mac because it doesn't do anything useful to us and at a much steeper price at that.
Lenovo is also the leader in all laptop sales now. If they just surpassed Apple recently, that is more of a sign of how well Apple is doing, not how bad.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
...but they do exist and you could get one.
And be unsatisfied. Receiver would be the only acceptable solution and finding one with stereo surround wouldn't be easy nor cheap.

Hmmmm. I see what you mean. Most of it's for over-the-air programming and not scrambled signals like what Comcast has. I see nothing capable of descrambling which is a PITA however I have seen some really nice boxes for recording HD video directly off inputs, but not what you want. :(
I only need OTA.

Our Mac Mini at work has two 500GB 2.5" drives in it, so an SSD + 1TB drive isn't unrealistic.
HDD2 already has over 1.5 TB used. Moving the contents of HDD1 to SSD would make the SSD too expensive.

Lenovo is also the leader in all laptop sales now. If they just surpassed Apple recently, that is more of a sign of how well Apple is doing, not how bad.
Apple is 1 of 1; Lenovo is 1 of many. And I changed it to Acer. Apple is only close to Lenovo in the USA. Globally, Apple is less than Acer.
 

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
Apple is 1 of 1; Lenovo is 1 of many. And I changed it to Acer. Apple is only close to Lenovo in the USA. Globally, Apple is less than Acer.
Where are you getting those numbers? I searched and found nothing concrete.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Last edited:

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
PC stats (I was looking at Q1 2014, these are newer): http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2869019
Mac stats: http://www.nextpowerup.com/news/14641/mac-sales-reach-high-during-fiscal-q4.html

Apple (5.52 million) is more on par with Asus (5.77 million) than Acer (6.83 million) looking at the most recent data available.
5 million of all ~32 million sales are Apple if you combine them. That's ~15% which is not too bad.

All I'm trying to say is that the Mac Mini doesn't cater to you, but it does cater to a lot of other people's needs for a reasonable price.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Worldwide PC sales, all manufacturers: 79.39 million
Worldwide Apple sales: 5.52 million
Total: 84.91 million
Apple percentage: 6.5%

Small fish in a big pond.

I'm saying no Mac product caters to me (probably never will) and Apple's prices are not reasonable. Just in the example with me, its too easy to dismiss all of the external peripherals that rapidly add to the cost of ownership. Apple makes primitive computers for people's primitive needs and nothing more. If all I needed from a computer is to play music, word process once in a while, browse the internet, and check email, Mac, *nix, Android, and Windows would all work for me. But I'm a "power user" which rules out Mac entirely...
 
Last edited:

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
11,875 (3.68/day)
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Apollo
Processor Intel Core i9 9880H
Memory 64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage 1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s) Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Power Supply 96w Power Adapter
Mouse Logitech G602
Software MacOS 10.15.6
Worldwide PC sales, all manufacturers: 79.39 million
Worldwide Apple sales: 5.52 million
Total: 84.91 million
Apple percentage: 6.5%

Small fish in a big pond.

I'm saying no Mac product caters to me (probably never will) and Apple's prices are not reasonable. Just in the example with me, its too easy to dismiss all of the external peripherals that rapidly add to the cost of ownership. Apple makes primitive computers for people's primitive needs and nothing more. If all I needed from a computer is to play music, word process once in a while, browse the internet, and check email, Mac, *nix, Android, and Windows would all work for me. But I'm a "power user" which rules out Mac entirely...
And US-wide estimated sales for Q3-2014 is 14.6%. As you said, Apple products aren't cheap so it only makes sense that more wealthy nations would buy Apple more. I'm a power user too, I don't buy a Mac for the same reason. HOWEVER, I do have a Macbook Air given to me by work. Having used it, there is nothing wrong with it and it's more capable than I would have thought otherwise.

The point is, Apple is not a bad product because it doens't cater to your specific needs at a cheap price, and your needs are very specific. I think that's an unrealistic expectation since to meet your own goals, you would probably build a tower anyways, right? So no pre-made tower would actually be very beneficial to you in the first place. My point is for most people, Apple products are fine, and that you and I are not most people.

Also 500 USD for a mini isn't too bad if you want OS X and you won't be gaming. Also for a form factor like that at 300 USD you'll probably end up getting a J1900 Celeron instead of an i5. So I think the price here is reasonable. I do think iMacs and the Mac Pro are ludicrously expensive but Apple's laptop prices have been slowly inching down over time.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
I haven't seen figures from Apple on US Mac sales, only global. Make no mistake that the uptick in Mac sales stemmed from three things: 1) decline in iPad sales, 2) China sales went up by almost 50%, and 3) Windows 8 still sucks.

So no pre-made tower would actually be very beneficial to you in the first place.
That's the beauty of IBM-PC compatible; you can make it work. If I bought a computer off the shelf, all I'd need to do is make sure it has enough 3.5" internal bays and PCI/PCI Express slots and I could transfer my cards/drives over. It's ironic the reason why IBM set out to bring industry leaders together to make a standard for everyone as a response to Apple still rings true today. It nearly killed Apple, then Microsoft threw Apple a bone by investing in it, and Steve Jobs came back to make Apple sell its appliances in markets where interchangable parts really don't work (portable devices; but it is coming if Google has its way).

Also 500 USD for a mini isn't too bad if you want OS X and you won't be gaming. Also for a form factor like that at 300 USD you'll probably end up getting a J1900 Celeron instead of an i5. So I think the price here is reasonable. I do think iMacs and the Mac Pro are ludicrously expensive but Apple's laptop prices have been slowly inching down over time.
Not many people want Mac OS X but they for sure don't want Windows 8.1. You'll also be getting a system that most likely can't be upgraded nor repaired.

I really don't know why you like (rather, pushing) the Mac Mini so much. It's basically just an ITX motherboard with its components soldered in.
Motherboard $90: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157526
802.11ac $30: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833106190
Processor $140: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116945
RAM $40: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239312
HDD $50: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2W01AZ5317
Case $50: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163242
PSU $50: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256097

That comes to $450 and that processor is desktop versus mobile which translates to about twice as fast. Add in an OS and it is a bit more than the cheapest Mac Mini but completely serviceable with room for expansion (throw in three more drives, another stick of RAM, and a half-height PCI Express card). It also has a quality internal power supply as opposed to a cheap external power supply. And I didn't cut any corners in the above selections. I went with quality parts from reputable manufacturers.

The cost difference can be made up via not buying Apple keyboards, mice, and monitors. If I had to buy 100 systems for basic computer use, I'd go with what I spec'd above over Mac Mini because long-term operating costs will be lower.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
38 (0.01/day)
System Name MainRig
Processor i5 3570K @3.8
Motherboard Asrock Z77E-ITX
Cooling Coolermaster
Memory 2x4GB Kingston HyperX 1600Mhz
Video Card(s) Gigabyte 780 Ghz Edition 3GB
Storage Crucial 240GB mSATA | Crucial 480 GB | Seagate 1TB SSHD
Display(s) 3x LG 22" @ Custom Mount
Case Lian Li Q08b
Power Supply Antec HCG 620w
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard TT Meka
Software Debian Jessie | Win 7 Ultimate
Not many people want Mac OS X but they for sure don't want Windows 8.1. You'll also be getting a system that most likely can't be upgraded nor repaired.

I really don't know why you like (rather, pushing) the Mac Mini so much. It's basically just an ITX motherboard with its components soldered in.
Motherboard $90: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157526
802.11ac $30: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833106190
Processor $140: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116945
RAM $40: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239312
HDD $50: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2W01AZ5317
Case $50: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163242
PSU $50: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256097

That comes to $450 and that processor is desktop versus mobile which translates to about twice as fast. Add in an OS and it is a bit more than the cheapest Mac Mini but completely serviceable with room for expansion (throw in three more drives, another stick of RAM, and a half-height PCI Express card). It also has a quality internal power supply as opposed to a cheap external power supply. And I didn't cut any corners in the above selections. I went with quality parts from reputable manufacturers.

The cost difference can be made up via not buying Apple keyboards, mice, and monitors. If I had to buy 100 systems for basic computer use, I'd go with what I spec'd above over Mac Mini because long-term operating costs will be lower.
God i've been reading your posts all along and is getting more obvious that you don't know what you are talking about.

That ITX system you built it's not exactly the same. It's bigger. Also the PSU in the mac mini is internal.
Besides the fact that you should add the price of the OS.

Don't get me wrong. I have a custom built PC. It's cheaper if you want to add some fancy graphic card and hard drives, but by no means the things you want to do with it can't be done on a mac, one way or another.
>B-but muh gaymen rig!!1
Not everybody wants a ricer gaming rig and not everybody uses their machines mostly for gaming. Deal with it.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.90/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Mac Minis use laptop components, not desktop. If you want to make a 1:1 competitive product with Mac Mini, you have to be an OEM and manufacture (or special order) all of your parts. If you want to scour the internet for an OEM machine that attempts to compete directly with Mac Mini, be my guest. I'm not because I would never even consider purchasing such a machine in the first place.

You are correct on the Mac Mini having an internal power supply. I saw the picture of the back of it with the standard positive/neutral plug and assumed there was a brick between it and the outlet. The website plainly states there isn't. Still, the power supply I gave is more than four times the output of the 85w unit in the Mac Mini and likely far more efficient at that. What I have selected is clearly overkill depending on whether or not a discreet graphics card is installed and what is placed in the 2.5" bays. One could save some money there by downgrading it to ~100-150w.

Edit: This $20 PSU is probably on par with the Mac Mini considering the gap between laptop and desktop power requirements: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817154024

Correction: most people DO game (what is Solitaire?) but most computers do not require a discreet video card. This is a point Aquinus keeps stressing and I keep ignoring because it is stating the obvious. I gave numerous reason why Apple does not make a product for me. I have not and will not make claims that me implies everyone. That's stuffing words in my mouth that simply do not exist (I thought I made that abundantly clear in post #70).
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
1,465 (0.32/day)
Processor RyZen R9 3950X
Motherboard ASRock X570 Taichi
Cooling Coolermaster Master Liquid ML240L RGB
Memory 64GB DDR4 3200 (4x16GB)
Video Card(s) GTX 970
Storage Samsung 1TB SSD
Display(s) Asus VE276Q, VE278Q and VK278Q triple 27” 1920x1080
Case Zulman MS800
Audio Device(s) On Board
Power Supply Seasonic 650W
Software Windows 10 64bit
IT department doesn't seem too bright unless she exclusively programs for iOS/Mac OS X. They wasted a ton of money and they're giving her poor tools to work with compared to what she likely came from (Visual Studio).

Most businesses around here are going from XP to Windows 7. I only know of one that is going from Windows 7 to Windows 8.1 and they do a ton of CAD work.
I don't see any of this as being particularly relevant and I don't know or even care if it is true or not.

The point is if changes are made like this then the individual employees have to go along with it or find employment elsewhere. It wasn't a particularly difficult change to adapt to for the individual employees or at least it wasn't in this case. I haven't heard of even one hold out or complaint due to said change and I believe that their was a BYOD policy prior to the move and most if not all devs that took advantage of it were bringing in Macs anyway.

Its similar to how some people may use Mac's at home but must use Windows at work. Either way the individuals should be able to adapt and do their job at work. I won't speculate as to the quality of the tools necessary to do the job without having very specific information about the development environment and additional requirements.

My point still stands and its a very simple one. Not everyone has a choice as to what hardware and software they use in their work environment.
 
Top