1. Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Athlon64 X2 vs Opteron Dual-Core?

Discussion in 'Overclocking & Cooling' started by Dizman7, Jan 22, 2006.

  1. Dizman7 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    67 (0.02/day)
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Was looking at getting an Athlon64 X2 3800 or 4400 (if price drops, heard it is suppose too soon) because for I use my computer for dual cores would benefit me. Well now I've been reading about the Opteron 165 dual-core and how it's way better than the X2 and can overclock to close to FX60 speeds?! :twitch:

    So I was wondering if anyone knew anything bout the Opterons and how true this may be?
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  2. Gzero New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    718 (0.16/day)
    Thanks Received:
    52
    Location:
    Scotland
    U might be better off just being pateint for a little while longer, because AMD are trying to raise the prices of the opterons and bring down the prices for the x2. Not to mention they have the new socket cpus on the way.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  3. Dizman7 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    67 (0.02/day)
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Well I would be patience but I've heard the AM2's aren't till march, I don't want to spend a lot on how much those things will cost, I broke my X800pro on New Year's weekend and haven't been able to play PC games for almost a month now cause I still have an AGP slot!

    And that kind of sucks, cause from what I've been reading the Opterons a better than the X2's and have been selling better, so if they raised Opt and lowered X2's I would get an X2 cause I'm on a budget but I really want an Opt from what I've been reading the are great, very stable and super easy to overclock and over clock higher than the 4400+ can.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  4. breakfromyou

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2005
    Messages:
    299 (0.07/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3
    Location:
    virginia, usa
    the opterons overclock better, with less voltage. they're just higher quality chips, and usually pretty cheap.

    i can do 2.8 GHz on my 4400+. i keep it at 2.6 all the time. but an X2 that overclocks well would be about the same as a decent opteron...
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  5. Gzero New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    718 (0.16/day)
    Thanks Received:
    52
    Location:
    Scotland
    Oh and having a peak at your system specs you'd need to upgrade your motherboard as it only supports 754 pins, while opterons and x2's require a 939 board. Sorry if i'm pointing out the obvious. Just making sure your aware of that. :)
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  6. ZenZimZaliben

    ZenZimZaliben

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,002 (0.68/day)
    Thanks Received:
    765
    Opterons are awesome. My 165 does 2.8Ghz with no problem, thats 1Ghz Overclock. You will need a good mobo that can do a HTT/FSB of at least 300 because the opteron 165 only has a x9 multiplier.

    With 2mb of Cache and running at 2.8Ghz Im smoking FX-60's. Course the FX-60 does have unlocked multi's and can hit 3.0Ghz+, but it does cost $1000+ vs. $320 for the 165.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  7. gR3iF

    gR3iF New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,806 (0.41/day)
    Thanks Received:
    35
    Location:
    Hamburg
    they are pretty much the same
    i would recommend the x2 they are optimized for gaming in there microcode and opterons are optimized for multitasking but its your choice
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  8. breakfromyou

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2005
    Messages:
    299 (0.07/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3
    Location:
    virginia, usa
    there is no difference between the opteron and the X2. same processor, but the opterons are just made tougher. able to handle alot from the factory. the reason why they overclock so well.

    DFI motherboards clock high. opty + dfi = nice.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  9. EnglishLion

    EnglishLion New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    461 (0.11/day)
    Thanks Received:
    45
    Location:
    Peterborough, UK
    I know it's not dual core so not especially relevent but I've just pushed my 146 opteron to 3.0Ghz from it's stock 2.0Ghz. A pretty good OC, if the dual cores OC as well as that then that'd be great.

    Of course if gaming is your need then this is all futile unless you can afford a big boy graphics card! If you can't well then the CPU won't make much difference.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  10. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    15,979 (3.99/day)
    Thanks Received:
    10,020
    Location:
    Beaumont, Alberta
    running 2.9ghz under water on my 4400+...but then again 2 opteron 170's i got in at the same time had the serial # before, and the serial number after, same week/stepping codes, so i knew the 4400+ would do well.

    Same cpu physically under the IHS, although Opterons tend to overlccok a bit farther than X2's do. As always tho, like my cpu, there are exceptions to every rule.
    Now this guy..he might be on to something...
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  11. breakfromyou

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2005
    Messages:
    299 (0.07/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3
    Location:
    virginia, usa
    they're the same thing. just different names because the opterons are made to be tougher processors. made to work hard 24/7.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  12. Alec§taar New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    4,677 (1.18/day)
    Thanks Received:
    94
    Location:
    Someone who's going to find NewTekie1 and teach hi
    Could you explain this more, or cite the source you had for this information? The reason I ask is fairly simple: I understand the Opteron, afaik, is a server-oriented CPU, correct, and that the X2 Athlon64 series is for workstations (i.e. - home/work desktop rigs).

    How so, if you can explain that statement for myself, of the "how/why" the Opteron is better suited for "multitasking", when dual core type CPU's of all kinds do well here?

    E.G.-> Is the server-class opteron somehow microcode/hardcoded to take over multi-user use patterns, vs. single-user use patterns (kind of how UltraScSi disks differ from SATA1/2 ones in benchmark tests).

    See, the reason I ask is this/simple:

    If a system is HyperThreaded, Dual Core, or TRUE "SMP" (dual, or more, socketed mobos) then, the OS process-scheduler tends to take over as far as sending threads from multithreaded code to various CPU's (real or H/T emulated)... & it, as part of the OS, REALLY does the controlling of this (as long as the app itself does not have SetProcessAffinity type API calls (used with single threaded apps to make them run on a specific CPU) or SetThreadAffinityMask (what multithreaded apps would use when specifically optimizing them to run on a certain CPU) inside of itself, & thus, controlling where its threads run, by itself - not stressing or depending on the OS Process Scheduler to do it for its code threads)...

    There is no real variation @ the OS level is why as far as multiple CPU bearing systems of any type (all seen the same via abstraction @ the HAL no doubt), so what are you aware of (or a URL seconding your statement) where I can read up on that more?

    Thanks!

    APK
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2006
    10 Year Member at TPU
  13. Dippyskoodlez

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,161 (1.20/day)
    Thanks Received:
    295
    Location:
    Kansas City, KS

    a basic opteron Vs athlon when you compare what is advertised, will be IDENTICAL. they are the same cpu. Speed, optimization, etc.

    However, simple logic says the opterons will be "binned" a higher quality than the average Athlon 64, because its the server CPU. They rely on stability. Server problems = lost money. Lost money = new server CPU brand... and that means intel.

    Otherwise, theres no difference. Just a different "class" it recieves. WHich also explains the common overclocking results being better than the average Athlon 64.

    This is the same wether its dual or single core.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  14. Alec§taar New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    4,677 (1.18/day)
    Thanks Received:
    94
    Location:
    Someone who's going to find NewTekie1 and teach hi
    WELL, not quite - as I went to do some reading about this to try to answer my questions for myself (I realize folks do sleep & that the lagtime in reply might be longer than I expected).

    Yes, that is mentioned repeatedly but in diff. terms when I search "Opteron vs. X2" on GOOGLE & other search motors online.

    Apparently, the gist of what I got (from a single-user perspective) is that Opterons, new ones with Dual Core setup, overclock higher typically, because they are from a "higher-grade" of silicon than X2 units are.

    STILL - I wonder what exactly it is that makes Opterons "better for servers" in their internal to CPU codebase...? That was my main question! I know how, for instance, UltraScSi firmware on drives & the drivers are better for multiuser file I/O request scenarios, vs. SATA 1/2 & why... & am wondering if this is the SAME thing on the CPU types from AMD also - hence, my question to others here on that note: Can they provide me a technical readout of this, preferably from AMD? If not, I can see "following the trend" reading what is out on the forums boards etc. (many of the guys here are doubtless network engineers & have exposure to this, if not "EE" types as well).

    Right again, that 2nd's what I have been reading about them on my own today, pretty much, which is good, but still... my bolded area questions above reimain.

    :)

    * Thanks for feedback - AMD man again now (it's been 7++ years or so since I had my last AMD, a K6-III @ 450mhz circa 1998-1999 iirc)...

    (That's after doing "the Intel thing" (which are good as well imo) for many years on SMP rigs (Dual 233mmx Pentium I's, Dual 1ghz Pentium III's, & last round a H/T Intel P4 @ 3.2ghz each cpu))...

    So far, as far as my "return to AMD"?

    Well, I really truly like what I have seen from my latest machine, which is an AMD Athlon 64 x2 4800+!

    (See my profile if you need more detail on the system setup I use + peripheral equipment inside of it - it's pretty decent, & probably the BEST system I have ever setup & finally, one with a caching RAID controller again (have not had one of these since the ISA/VLB 486 days in fact)).

    APK

    P.S.=> I can say 1 thing I have noted too, about the Pentium 4 I still keep around as a SQLServer 2005/IIS 6.x rig for ASP.NET/VB.NET coding, vs. this AMD I run now - gaming wise, there is NO comparison (the AMD rocks the P4's world, but diff. class of CPU's entirely too, diff. gens) - The P4 H/T cpu @ 3.2ghz has a NVidia based BFG 6800 GT OC vidcard & the AMD Athlon 64 DualCore cpu @ 2.4ghz (2.6+ via 10% overclock) has an NVidia based BFG 7900 GTX OC vidcard - in games?

    No contest... the AMD absolutely SMOKES the Pentium 4 I have here... big diff. overall gaming, this is certain, & was worth the cash outlay there (even though this new system was purchased to be a development workstation while my orig/other box is now the server for that type of setup)... I gained in gaming hugely! apk
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2006
    10 Year Member at TPU
  15. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    15,979 (3.99/day)
    Thanks Received:
    10,020
    Location:
    Beaumont, Alberta
    AMD test cpu's to see how many watts of power are consumed, then program the TDP. The less wattage consumed, the lower the TDP. Typically, the higher the TDP, the more likely a cpu is going to be an opteron.They then lid them, and any that fail the new test get binned down to X2's, AFAIK.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  16. Alec§taar New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    4,677 (1.18/day)
    Thanks Received:
    94
    Location:
    Someone who's going to find NewTekie1 and teach hi
    Cool, thanks gents - now I have more "complete" info. on the diff.'s between AMD cpu types on the "high-end" (Opteron vs. Athlon 64 x2 types).

    Seems also that Opterons need to use ECC memory (server-class error-correcting stuff, though more 'stable' & accurate, it is slower iirc).... they seem to be server-oriented, & perhaps THIS is also another reason "why" they are classed as such, per my bolded question above.

    :)

    * Yes, I did a bit of reading on this one, it "piqued my curiousity" some, & that's fairly rare nowadays, hardware's no longer my specialty in this field anymore & hasn't been in a decade now almost really (having moved to other areas of this field to pursue for study & livelyhood mainly is why).

    APK

    P.S.=> Still, when I go to buy, once every 3-5 years (when I note most of your "power-doubling/Moore's Law" REALLY seems to take effect? Then, I read like mad, or try to, & THEN go & buy... & it's threads like these that help me do so... thanks! apk
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  17. EnglishLion

    EnglishLion New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    461 (0.11/day)
    Thanks Received:
    45
    Location:
    Peterborough, UK
    As I understand it, only the 940 socket opterons need ECC memory. Certainly my 939 socket 146 doesn't, it's running on overclocked OCZ PC3200 non ECC memory @ 1T with no issues at all. I think they broke out of servers and therefore the server limitations when they jumped across to 939
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  18. Alec§taar New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    4,677 (1.18/day)
    Thanks Received:
    94
    Location:
    Someone who's going to find NewTekie1 and teach hi
    There are socket 939 opterons? This is news to me... thanks, provided you're accurate & you probably are!

    ("NEW" to the AMD world again, it's been 7-8 years since I last had one is why (circa 1999 iirc, an AMD K6-III @ 450mhz - great CPU imo) & went with a decent rig this round imo @ least)

    So, after YEARS on Intel (& mostly intel over the last 15 years to be honest)?

    WELL... I am learning more & more here on these forums!

    (Often daily about them in fact!)

    Is that opteron of yours Dualcore?

    APK
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2006
    10 Year Member at TPU
  19. Kcptech New Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    4 (0.00/day)
    Thanks Received:
    0
    The First Dual Cores from AMD were the Opteron 800 series. The 800 series can be used in groups of 4 Physical CPUs at one. Eventually, AMD introduced the 200 and 100 series as the 800 series was quite expensive; running about $2500 US at the time for a 2.2 GHz. The 200 series is used in single or pairs. The 100 series of the Opteron is a Single Physical CPU only and uses the Toledo core and has a Pin count of 939. The Opteron 100 series has twin memory controllers that allow the CPU to address Fast Page or ECC.
    The first Athlon64 Dual Cores was actually the Opteron 160 to 180 with Toledo core. However, to reduce the performance of the Athlon64x2 Toledo’s (4400+ & 4800+) two of the three HyperTransports were burnt. This move was much cheaper at the time than waiting for their New FAB line that uses the Manchester dual core (4200+, 4600+, and eventually 3800+). The sales revenue loss of the Toledo Opterons was out weighed by the jump to beat Intel.

    As to the question of which is better Athlon64x2 or Opteron64x2 160 to 180 series, Opteron is. The 64x2 was removed from the Opteron dual –core labeling as all Opterons produced now are Dual-Core and 64 Bit.

    What makes the Opteron Better? It has three ( 3 ) HyperTransports. The HyperTransports are independent Buses that communicate with the mobo’s I/O controller. On the 200 and 800 series, these HyperTransports allow the Physical CPUs to communicate with one another.
    The I/O Bandwidth of an Athlon64x2 is the same as a Vanilla Athlon64, 8.4GB/sec. Because all Athlon64, 64x2, and FXs only have 1 HyperTransport. So, when you want your system to handle lots of traffic like SLI or CrossFire Cards, and games/apps that utilize more than one core; the Opteron is the way to go. Since it has 3 pipes, its nominal bandwidth on the I/O bus exceeds 24 GB/sec. Ideal for dual 7900 GTXs that tend to consume more than 16 GB/sec full out on nForce16 controllers.

    The Opteron 160 to 180 series are a bit more money, but they are tougher, and offer more pipes, come with impressive heat pipe cooling, and replacement warranties are handled directly through AMD.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  20. OneCool

    OneCool

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,033 (0.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    172
    Location:
    Look behind you!!
    Do you have a link so I can read about these pipe/HT differences?
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  21. ataraxia New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Messages:
    75 (0.02/day)
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    indiana
    OPTY165 or 170!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!you cant go wrong with either.
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  22. Alec§taar New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    4,677 (1.18/day)
    Thanks Received:
    94
    Location:
    Someone who's going to find NewTekie1 and teach hi
    Thanks man, excellent and THOROUGH reply - all a body needs to understand really imo so far, about AMD current higher-end CPU offerings, and their forebears/ancestors as well, without a doubt!

    :)

    Read it, end-to-end, and now? It makes my "tech documents" area I keep on disk here to help me commit things to memory, or @ least to know WHERE to get quick reference to them when I cannot get online for them (rare, but happens).

    * Thank you very much!

    APK
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  23. Kcptech New Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    4 (0.00/day)
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Thank you.

    AMD themselves should have the information about Hypertransports on their consumer and commercial class CPUs. Off-sights may offer even more in-depth information on where Hypertransport started and why.

    http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_8796_8804,00.html

    http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/DevelopWithAMD/0,,30_2252_2353,00.html

    This link here is for Specs on the AM2 as well as the origianl Athlon64x2 below.

    http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_9485_13041^13043,00.html
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  24. Alec§taar New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    4,677 (1.18/day)
    Thanks Received:
    94
    Location:
    Someone who's going to find NewTekie1 and teach hi
    Thanks again, man...

    Good solid links are always appreciated here... good reads, very informative, filling in the gaps for me!

    :)

    * This site's forums' will turn me into an "AMD expert" in no time imo...

    APK
     
    10 Year Member at TPU
  25. Dippyskoodlez

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,161 (1.20/day)
    Thanks Received:
    295
    Location:
    Kansas City, KS
    There is no difference. Benchmarks will be the same.. ;) Opteron is just the "server line" I believe they are available with better warrantys... but the only real difference is label and ability to run ni a multiprocessor enviroment.

    I/O, Sata, etc will depend more on chipset. Raw CPU performance will be identical, because they are identical cores.

    If you see a dual core opteron Vs a64 X2, check the chipset. If using the same motherboard, they should be the same.

    Opteron =high grade A64 with a different label. Which isn't bad. a single design is very fast, effecient for AMD to produce, and scales like crazy. What more could one want? :)
     
    10 Year Member at TPU

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guest)