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Buying & Selling MMo accounts

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TLDR Warning... ctrl f "meat" twice to get to the subject matter

I'm posting here on a long standing account. I do realize this post may cause some controversy but it's for the point of conversation.

I've been playing mmo's since Ultima Online 1st year. UO taught me the tricks of buying and selling desirable items. Easy, buy low sell high. Pay attention to the trends of valuable items.

I've been in several mmo's since, my love for money/gold/credits etc was replaced with a love for pvp. Problem is I'm aging as we all do and I don't have the time I used to and mmo's are trading time for profit to gain profit. Problem is I don't have enough time.

So long story short, after a year of trying to get enough competitive gear, for the first time I purchased someone elses account. Buying and selling of virtual items in an mmo isn't new to me. I used to buy ultima accounts, strip the possessions on the account, sell the houses and then ebay the accounts. This is the first time I've actually paid for someone else's intellectual property.

I felt guilty. I've never sold a personal account of my own. This was the first purchase of this type. Most mmo's don't consider time invested someones personal property they would claim it's their property. My interpretation is it was someone elses property, intellectually owned by their company. The time invested by the other owner was substantial personal property.

Moving on... The cost for this persons next level of pvp gear would be no doubt substantial. I'm sure this guy just figured enough is enough, "I'm not spending more of my time"

Regardless, I was close to doing the same. The time sink felt like it was too much. I've had the pleasure of being a top ranked pvper, there's nothing like it. That said stepping into someone elses shoes still feels wrong and I decided I didn't wanna be that other guys toon.

Meat...
When I decided to buy an account I got an offer on the current account I owned. I was hoping to upgrade when I went to buy the better account. $179.00 us cash was offered on my lesser account. I never sold my lesser account.

When I went to sell the better account back to the MMo account seller I asked what they'd give. The offer was $178. Ok, I know it's like a pawn shop, they gotta make money. But They offered me less on the better account I bought than the lesser (my account) I offered to sell originally.

When I say better, I mean significantly better. The bought account had at least 8x as much time invested. When I asked why there was such a small difference they said they based the account based on "pvp points" & character level.

PVP points = *points earned and ready to spend for pvp items* These points can be obtained from pve but are only available for pvp gear purchases. They can't be traded and can't be sold. They're character specific.

So this company completely disregarded anything that was purchased with "pvp points" currently owned.

So my thought was

"What in the world is this company who does this for a living thinking?"

They didn't take into consideration items that cost pvp points owned by a character via gear, only pvp points available to spend. So if this person never spent the points on gear and just accumulated it, the account is somehow worth exponentially more than one where the player wasn't simply just saving points. This is not to mention other items in game which can be bought by in game currency that they completely ignored.

This got me thinking, if this company who is a top player in the mmo account trading & selling business can be so ignorant, maybe I ought to jump into the game of selling accounts.. I'm not giving names but I did my research on the company and it's very well rated company considering the type of business they conduct. I'm going to be unemployed 1st quarter of 2011 due to health care reform putting my company out of business. Is it time to move to mexico and open up shop?

I know, Trading is against most eula's. I know this is a tech forum mostly but I thought I'd throw this out for conversation. If a mod finds the topic to be too controversial, lock or delete.
 
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Well, you have to think that selling MMO account in the first place goes against most EULA's as you stated. Of course, account sellers most likely aren't going to be "legit" either, regardless of how popular they are. You could always try going the Craigslist route which will take longer to sell, but you a much better chance of getting better money.

*I don't mind the topic as long as nothing illegal is discussed, links relating to the topic shouldn't be posted either. Keep things civil please, thanks.
 
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I've never sold to strangers or through websites, imo its impossible to be compensated fairly for the amount of money and time you've spent on an account. The best way to get rid of an account is to sell it for what you think is a decent but not ridiculous price to someone you know personally or through the game.
 
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Forum Stalin stalk incoming :...

Wouldn't this be better in the site's General Nonsense brother forum?; since by the author's own words, it's for the purpose of controversy/discussion, and not necessarily gaming support or news.
 
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It's easy to get ripped off if you are not dealing in CASH.

Paypal will reverse funds without question, credit card processing can overly easily be reversed and a lot of people are hesitant to send money orders these days to people they don't know or small businesses.

That being said I made thousands selling items and accounts in UO.

Also IMO it's a bad job, I did it because I played a lot on various servers with large guilds that would do a lot of spawns and such so I had a lot of money, "easyuo" was working and around so I scripted a lot of it on numerous computers 10-12 hours a day and just sat there and watched it. Also against the rules, but being I was there to respond to a GM I never got an account banned.

There were a few companies that got busted for child labor laws and tax evasion doing this, so something else to kinda watch out for if you try to actually make some money off of it.

Lastly in some countries I can't remember I found a small list of laws previously but selling such things are illegal. In the USA if someone buys it from you and then reverses the payment there is nothing you can even do in a court room because it's virtual property that doesn't legally belong to you in the first place, again read the EULA it's their property.

*Insert it's "technically" illegal in the USA to sell these things as well because you are selling property that doesn't belong to you *fraud*, although I cannot recall a case ever being made of and and highly doubt there ever would be*

So all in all, make some side cash for playing a game you already play, I say go ahead just don't expect every transaction to go over well.

WARNING- Playing games to make money off of them can really ruin the game play for you and make you hate the game.
 

1Kurgan1

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I really don't get why it isn't allowed. Well I do, but after putting in a lot of time and deciding you are done, you should be allowed to sell. I personally would never buy one, I will only enjoy characters that I have made. I actually just transfered my character on WoW, I could have easily remade him on the new server as he wasn't max level, but I originally made him in Jan 05, we have history, got a lot of good memories, and some new stand in wouldn't do.
 
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I really don't get why it isn't allowed.

I would venture so the company can keep control and so they don't have to deal with CS issues when people get ripped off, that costs them money and causes a headache for them so if they say it's against the rules and people break them they can say too bad and hang up.

Sometimes keeping things simple is well worth it. :toast:
 

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The reason that it isn't allowed is that when you purchase a game, you are purchasing the right to play it. Nothing more.
By selling virtual items you are making a profit from someone else's IP without an agreement from them to do so.
It's the same as creating something based on another well selling item and profiting from it without the trademark or copyright holders consent. Like making your own audio mix of a popular artist and selling the CDs.
 

1Kurgan1

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The reason that it isn't allowed is that when you purchase a game, you are purchasing the right to play it. Nothing more.
By selling virtual items you are making a profit from someone else's IP without an agreement from them to do so.
It's the same as creating something based on another well selling item and profiting from it without the trademark or copyright holders consent. Like making your own audio mix of a popular artist and selling the CDs.

Thats not really the same. People remix music all the time, some ask for consent, others change it or cut it up and sell it for profit legally. And whats illegal is not changing it enough, but this your selling something they made, you invested a lot of time into, and whoever buys it still has to pay the creators a monthly subscription fee.
 
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Thats not really the same. People remix music all the time, some ask for consent, others change it or cut it up and sell it for profit legally. And whats illegal is not changing it enough, but this your selling something they made, you invested a lot of time into, and whoever buys it still has to pay the creators a monthly subscription fee.

I am a DJ and a Producer.

I can remix all I want, I can play what I own, in a club or at a party.

I cannot however sell it without specific written permission, that goes for remixes as well, you need to get permission from the recording company who holds the rights in order to do so. Trust me people get sued over this often. Also that means if I make a mix and burn it *you can only burn a complete mixed single track mix as a demo and legally you also have to list the artists and tracks used and you cannot even so much as charge a penny for your time to burn the disc, this is a work around for DJ's especially for podcasters...

Warning, these laws are also being looked over currently which will make podcasts something you will have to pay for most likely.
 
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Ok, I went on a rant. I did want to see what a discussioin about peoples impressions about buying and selling mmo accounts would result in but what sparked the post was..

The professional account buyers offered money based on the pvp points they saw, not the pvp points spent on gear. I figure the gear on the bought account was about 4.2 million pvp points. They made an offer on 55k pvp points.

This professional account trading company made a ridiculous offer, I probably bought the account tooo cheap.

Regardless, part of my reason for the post was to admit guilt. The problem is that logically I know I paid real money for something someone else got real money for. I paid over 4x the offer from a company who obviously doesn't know squat about what they're selling.

Part of the post was hoping to get feedback on the general subject, the majority reason for the post at the time I posted was to get a response to the ridiculous offer this accredited company made on the offer.

In the back of my mind, knowing I'm going to be unemployed soon I did consider this business as income but logically it will not happen. Still I was hoping to stir the kettle and one person mentioned there may be a more appropriate forum. I kinda agree, mmo gamers are definitely not this forums majority. If a mod choses to move this, I definitely won't be offended. Otherwise, more feedback is great. :)
 
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I've sold MMO accounts before on ebay. I've sold two of my three guild wars accounts. Its a good way to get some sort of compensation for all the time spent and in some cases monthly fees.

Mind you I haven't sold an account since maybe 5 years ago or so. I just don't have the time to invest in MMO games like I did.
 

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I am a DJ and a Producer.

I can remix all I want, I can play what I own, in a club or at a party.

I cannot however sell it without specific written permission, that goes for remixes as well, you need to get permission from the recording company who holds the rights in order to do so. Trust me people get sued over this often. Also that means if I make a mix and burn it *you can only burn a complete mixed single track mix as a demo and legally you also have to list the artists and tracks used and you cannot even so much as charge a penny for your time to burn the disc, this is a work around for DJ's especially for podcasters...

Warning, these laws are also being looked over currently which will make podcasts something you will have to pay for most likely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJPdVVOmbz4

Thats really all that has to be said. Chopped up bit of songs, mixed together in a string of other chopped parts from other songs and parts of their own to fill gaps. I don't know a ton about making music, or playing it, but I assume by remix you mean just take a song and make it sound different, but I don't think it's the same to cut out bits and change them. With art, which I do know, you can take something and use it, as long as you change it 50% or more. So it will be considered yours, but you didn't originally make it. Like that famous Obama painting, that guy "stole" that image, and made that, then got sued as they said it wasn't changed more than 50%, I'm not sure what the final outcome was, but I'm betting music is the exact same, and cutting a part out and putting it in a song of your own is a large change.

So I still hold my stand point on, it's a completely different thing there than selling an MMO account of which you took the time to make, and which someone else will still have to pay monetary value for to play. You aren't selling items, your selling your time invested, which is a lot if it's worth anything, heck I been playing my WoW account for 6 years and I could maybe get $300 for it, hell, I wouldn't even think about accepting that for it as thats a slap in the face and it's worth much more than that to me. People selling accounts are taking a massive cut for their time invested, but should be allowed to do so.
 
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People only buy accounts because they are lazy and the reason its agaist the rules on most MMO's is because buying accounts gives people an unfair advantage, It also upsets a lot of ingame things.

Sorry but if i catch people on world of warcraft buying or selling accounts they will be reported.
 
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I really don't get why it isn't allowed. Well I do, but after putting in a lot of time and deciding you are done, you should be allowed to sell.

Because while you pay for a subscription, to play on the account...it isn’t actually yours to sell it’s the property of EA, Mythic, NC, Activistion/Blizzard Etc…

That’s what it says basically in nearly every TOS

I’ve sold 2 accts (won’t name em) to a Chinese company who paid me via paypal within 30 minutes. I bring that up because I know one was banned lol (not when i sold it but when they logged in once and then tried to log in again).
 

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i used to sell accounts also on ebay, but since thats not allowed anymore i dont trust any forum/site anymore.
Too much scamming going around...
 
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I sold my warhammer account for like $300 on an online MMO account selling site ...

I dont see why we cant and after spending so much time playing a game I will take money for it if I can get it.
 
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People only buy accounts because they are lazy and the reason its agaist the rules on most MMO's is because buying accounts gives people an unfair advantage, It also upsets a lot of ingame things.

Sorry but if i catch people on world of warcraft buying or selling accounts they will be reported.

that doesn't even make any sense. if someone else got them legitimately who cares who uses it? you don't know who is behind the keyboard.

i think it's kind of petty and childish to "report" someone for that.

what about when a software developer releases a dlc that unlocks the in-game content for anyone who buys it?
 
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People selling accounts are taking a massive cut for their time invested, but should be allowed to do so.

I couldn't agree with you more honestly... I am just sharing what the laws actually say.

EA actually created a system to sell your account through them for a small fee for Ultima Online at least. You have to arrange the sale but you can do the transfer through them, basically to make sure the person selling it can't just steal it back.
 
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I couldn't agree with you more honestly... I am just sharing what the laws actually say.

EA actually created a system to sell your account through them for a small fee for Ultima Online at least. You have to arrange the sale but you can do the transfer through them, basically to make sure the person selling it can't just steal it back.

I remember that, was a nice option. I believe they got a cut of the change for the service too.

When I used to buy and sell UO accounts it wasn't illegal if memory serves me correctly. I think towards the end it was but UO let a 3rd party program become legal. "uoassist"

I think ebay finally got tired of dealing with problems with mmo transactions so they stopped allowing the sale of them.

I remember in SWG people bypassing ebays rules for Star wars accounts buy advertising the sale of the disc that just happens to come with some high level character as a freebie. I believe ebay found a way to squelch that problem too.

To the poster who said he'd report bought accounts, I understand his feelings. Someone got something they didn't spend their time on when he did. It's why buying money/gold in the games is illegal because people are getting something they didn't earn through normal game. It raises the cost of goods and affects those who are earning the money legitimately.

In my situation, I was ready to quit due to not being able to get gear. The account owner was ready to quit, so from a money standpoint the mmo wins buy losing one account and retaining another. It's why they don't restrict credit card info to the original owner because lets face it... If they wanted to stop account trading, not allowing credit cards other than the original owners name would accomplish this.
 
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To the poster who said he'd report bought accounts, I understand his feelings. Someone got something they didn't spend their time on when he did. It's why buying money/gold in the games is illegal because people are getting something they didn't earn through normal game. It raises the cost of goods and affects those who are earning the money legitimately.

if it were a hack or exploit i'd agree - but when someone has to do the legwork either way i simply can't see the sense in it.

as long as scripting/hacking/etc wasn't used in getting the cash or the character where it is, what's the issue?

I would tell him look at it this way: for just some work and time you can get something somebody else paid a lot of money for... there ya go, always a silver lining...
 
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if it were a hack or exploit i'd agree - but when someone has to do the legwork either way i simply can't see the sense in it.

As long as scripting/hacking/etc wasn't used in getting the cash or the character where it is, what's the issue?

I would tell him look at it this way: For just some work and time you can get something somebody else paid a lot of money for... There ya go, always a silver lining...

+1
 

Kreij

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I completely disagree that people who buy accounts are lazy.
There are many people who play these games for enjoyment, but work long hours and know they will never be able to attain the highest levels so they can enjoy the high level content.
They have the money, they don't have the time. It's their money to spend on any kind of entertainment they choose.

I have no problem with real dollar sales of MMO accounts or items, but I do understand many of the reasons why almost all MMO companies try to prevent it. It places them in gray area under the law that could make them liable for all kinds of nonsense.

That being said, who wants to buy my World of Starcraft account for a million dollars? :laugh:
 
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The Laws in some areas around the world don't allow some players to gain benifits from some things the games offer and this is also why its illegal to buy sell or trade accounts. This is why i said ill report people in wow at least.

The rules are there to stop theft or people being ripped of to.

I know what its like wanting something to, you think the thought of buying gold hasen't crossed my mind? But did i buy it in the end? Nope because i stick to rules.
 
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The Laws in some areas around the world don't allow some players to gain benifits from some things the games offer and this is also why its illegal to buy sell or trade accounts. This is why i said ill report people in wow at least.

The rules are there to stop theft or people being ripped of to.

I know what its like wanting something to, you think the thought of buying gold hasen't crossed my mind? But did i buy it in the end? Nope because i stick to rules.

so if you find $10 floating around on the street you will take it straight to the police station and report it? :wtf:
 
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