Confused... (RAM related)

[Aenra]

This will probably sound stupid.. may well be. But i'm really confused.

When we say quad-channel RAM, what exactly do we mean by it?

I will cut the long story (and the how i got me so confused) short and just relate the relevant part, it being that at some point i started seeing all these posts, youtube vids, etc wherein dual/quad channel was being equated with the number of sticks in a given set.

1) Except we've had matched four-sets way before we've had "quad channel" mobos
2) Except sets such as this one (http://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-3333c16q-32gvk) are mentioned as 'Dual Channel' by the manufacturer, despite coming in four sticks

Help me, lol

 

[Ebo]

The short version is: Its comming down to your chipset and CPU what they support.

X99 does suppport quadchannel and i cant remember if X79 also do.

All under does only support dualchannel, just execpt LGA 1366 which support tri-channel.

Under normal use you wont feel any difference, just under heavy video editing or music.

 

[Aenra]

Thanks for replying @Ebo
Am aware of the chipset variations/compatibilities, what i'm trying to understand is what quad channel specifies, as i'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the number of sticks per set and never mind what i've recently been reading.

Would that be accurate? Because if so (ergo it's unrelated to the number of modules), i'd really like to know what makes it different.

 

[Ebo]

As far as I remember, it means, that when chipset,CPU and ram support quadchannel, all of them can handle 4 cycles of information at the same time without loosing preformance.

I can have 8 ram sticks on my MB, but its still "only" quadchannel.

 

[NdMk2o1o]

Thanks for replying @Ebo
Am aware of the chipset variations/compatibilities, what i'm trying to understand is what quad channel specifies, as i'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the number of sticks per set and never mind what i've recently been reading.

Would that be accurate? Because if so (ergo it's unrelated to the number of modules), i'd really like to know what makes it different.

You need derivatives of 2 sticks of RAM for dual channel, derivatives of 3 for tri-channel and derivatives of 4 for quad channel RAM

Basically dual channel can access both sticks at the same time effectively doubling the available bandwidth (compared to single channel), the same can be said with tri-channel accessing 3 banks and tripling the bandwidth or quad accessing 4 and quadrupling it etc and so on and so forth..

The dual-, triple-, and quad-channel architectures work by increasing the number of data wires available in the memory bus, doubling, tripling or quadrupling the available bandwidth, respectively.

It is very important to notice that this performance increase is achieved only on the memory subsystem; doubling the theoretical memory performance does not translate into a computer that is twice as fast. Only a small percentage of this memory performance increase will be reflected on the overall system performance.

Source

 

[Aenra]

Much obliged @Ebo

Glad we clarified the modules number issue.. thought i was losing it for a minute

edit: was about to ask something, but @NdMk2o1o already answered.

Thank you so much guys!!

 

[basco]

and then there is dual and single sided ram.

 

[Aenra]

and then there is dual and single sided ram.

You want me to ask, don't you
You sadist..

So what is the difference between single and dual sided RAM, lol?

(and seriously, thanks again guys, much obliged.. you wouldn't believe [or maybe you would?] what kind of ""info"" is out there.. am talking about million views channels posting things like 4 sticks = quad channel..)

 

[eidairaman1]

Quad channeling was a technique to multiply effective bandwidth or data tranfer rate of ram by four times over single channel and 2x over dual channel. Day to day you won't notice any difference. All you do on a platform that supports it is put in a quad channel kit or 2 exact matching pairs of ram on a platform that supports it, otherwise you at most will only get dual channel. There is nothing special on the ram modules to make them quad channel.

 

[Aenra]

There is nothing special on the ram modules to make them quad channel.

As always, my thanks for taking the time to respond; though i admit you got me confused now/again. Absolutely no difference within the modules themselves? Really? :s

I tend to favor G.Skill lately, you go to their site, you will notice exact same models, same number of modules, listed separately; one under the 'dual channel' categorization, one under the 'quad'. Also, sticking to said same models, one can notice a slight difference in their timings. 'Quad' classified sets will be about 1-2 CaS upwards of their 'dual' counterparts and more expensive. Come to think of it, i've seen this on newegg too, last i was there looking. Same differences, both in pricing and timings.

You're saying this is just a marketing gimmick?

 

[sneekypeet]

You're saying this is just a marketing gimmick?

Not really. For instance, when buying dual, tri, or quad channel kits, you are buying kits that have been binned to work in tandem. This means less issues. In other words, you could go and buy a pair of dual channel kits to run quad channel, and while it is likely that they will run fine together, there is no guarantee. Buying a quad channel kit out of the box, you are guaranteed that all sticks will work correctly together.

 

[Aenra]

So unless either of you two are contradicting NdMk's post just above, what you're implying is that bandwidth multiplies automatically per each additional module installed?
(assuming that is the mobo is dual/tri/quad capable?)

edit: because matched sets we've had for a very long time, long before motherboards of an equivalent potential.

post edit (lol): am not being a spastic.. am trying to understand if i was a victim, or if there was any real merrit in my returning my previous modules (which i mistakenly took for 'quad' as it turns out) and getting the ones currently in my sig.

 

[sneekypeet]

I am not contradicting anything, I was addressing your "marketing" comment.

@Aenra we need more information on your edit. It seems that your system specs show that you are currently running a quad channel kit on a quad channel motherboard. What did you return? If you are on about the ones linked in the OP, it may come down to secondary and tertiary timings to give you the best performance out of that X99 motherboard.

Also found this, which would have helped us to help you too: http://www.gskill.us/forum/showthread.php?t=14204

 

[NdMk2o1o]

Dual tri or quad channel is dependant on the CPU memory controller and what it supports, not the memory sticks themselves, as mentioned you can buy sticks that ensure they Wii work together as using different sets or sticks sometimes have compatibility issues though it's rare if they are the same speed and timings etc

 

[Aenra]

@sneekypeet probably phrased it poorly.. the ones in my sig are the new ones. The previous ones (which i returned) were those listed in my first post here. What sprang the confusion and the OP is that as you can see, G.Skill themselves classify my old ones as 'dual' channel, despite being a set of four matched modules
I still don't understand why, but anyway, their business, not mine.

As to my post in G.Skill's forum, suffice it to say that this is the state of mind that results from being both clueless and expectant. Poor combination any time of the day.

Have done so much reading since, am still shocked i actually managed to OC my cpu on my own without burning anything, lol
And since you mentioned it, well.. after i did my homework, i noticed that unlike Corsair, G.Skill makes some modules x99-specific..friendly..whatever.., except my old RAMs were not one of them. Couple that with their listing them as dual, thought the hell with it, you only do this once every 4,5 years, do it right and send them back, get what you were after in the first place and start over.

Could i have made the old ones work too? With what i now know about X99s, B-Es and OCing, sure. This is more of a theoretical argument than anything; i just like to learn new things.

@NdMk2o1o thank you man, i get it now, lol

(only downside of learning is that you feel like an idiot all too often)

 

[eidairaman1]

@sneekypeet probably phrased it poorly.. the ones in my sig are the new ones. The previous ones (which i returned) were those listed in my first post here. What sprang the confusion and the OP is that as you can see, G.Skill themselves classify my old ones as 'dual' channel, despite being a set of four matched modules

As to my post in G.Skill's forum, suffice it to say that this is the state of mind that results from being both clueless and expectant. Poor combination any time of the day.

Have done so much reading since, am still shocked i actually managed to OC my cpu on my own without burning anything, lol
And since you mentioned it, well.. after i did my homework, i noticed that unlike Corsair, G.Skill makes some modules x99-specific..friendly..whatever.., except my old RAMs were not one of them. Couple that with their listing them as dual, thought the hell with it, you only do this once every 4,5 years, do it right and send them back, get what you were after in the first place and start over.

Could i have made the old ones work too? With what i now know about X99s, B-Es and OCing, sure. This is more of a theoretical argument than anything; i just like to learn new things.

@NdMk2o1o thank you man, i get it now, lol

(only downside of learning is that you feel like an idiot all too often)

A quad channel kit can be built by using 2 dual channel kits- if all of the values are the same, aka capacity, timings, voltage, frequency

 

[Aenra]

yeah, i can see how that makes sense considering all the above, thanks

 

[basco]

http://hwbot.org/newsflash/2125_the...kill_tridentx_8gb_ddr3_2933_memory_kit_review


description from largon:

Single and double sided DIMMs can't be differentiated from each other by the count or placement of the chips. The type and internal structure of the chip is the only thing that matter.

Single sided dimm
1. is a 64bit wide group of chips by definition
2. has 1 rank (1 rank is the 64bit group mentioned earlier)
3. can have chips on both sides of the stick
4. easier for the memory controller (theoretically overclocks higher than double sided)
5. no rank interleave -> slight performance loss
6. rank is always "open" -> slightly less latency
7. has no "maximum" capacity
8. capacity depends on density of the DRAM chip (32x8 -> 512Mbit/IC, 64x8 -> 1Gbit/IC, 128x8 -> 2Gbit/IC, and on and on...)

Double sided dimm
1. is a 128bit wide group of chips = 2 ranks
2. can have chips just on 1 side of the dimm (if the chips used are built in 16 arrays = 16x16 -> 256Mbit/IC, )
3. is more stressing for the memory controller (OCs less)
4. can do 2-rank / 4-rank interleave when 2 / 4 sticks are installed -> perf increase

 

[Aenra]

Thanks @basco, was actually reading that just a while ago
Having finished with cpu frequency and cache (tentative on the cache, depending on RAM performance, am hoping to up it further), I am about to start tinkering with the RAM timings.

And as always when clueless, you get more and more and more shit to deal with..
But this is totally out of topic and as I'm --sure-- i'll need help on that, let's leave it for my next thread

As to this topic, you guys are right. Went to a buddy of mine and ripped off his modules, lol, plugged them in mine's. Even though his are qualified as 'dual' by the manufacturer, CPUz sees them as 'quad' on my pc. So you all know best!
What I cannot understand is why their actual manufacturer differentiates them.. am still confused on that one..

Have a look at this; and you tell me why:
http://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-3400c16q-32gtz (the bud's ram)
http://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-3400c16q-32gtzsw (mine)

(sw stands for silver white, just the color. As you can see, they are i-den-ti-cal. Except they list one as dual and one as quad, despite both having 4 8Gb modules. That make any sense?)

 

[NdMk2o1o]

Thanks @basco, was actually reading that just a while ago
Having finished with cpu frequency and cache (tentative on the cache, depending on RAM performance, am hoping to up it further), I am about to start tinkering with the RAM timings.

And as always when clueless, you get more and more and more shit to deal with..
But this is totally out of topic and as I'm --sure-- i'll need help on that, let's leave it for my next thread

As to this topic, you guys are right. Went to a buddy of mine and ripped off his modules, lol, plugged them in mine's. Even though his are qualified as 'dual' by the manufacturer, CPUz sees them as 'quad' on my pc. So you all know best!
What I cannot understand is why their actual manufacturer differentiates them.. am still confused on that one..

Have a look at this; and you tell me why:
http://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-3400c16q-32gtz (the bud's ram)
http://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-3400c16q-32gtzsw (mine)

(sw stands for silver white, just the color. As you can see, they are i-den-ti-cal. Except they list one as dual and one as quad, despite both having 4 8Gb modules. That make any sense?)

As has been mentioned a couple of times, if you buy a set they are guaranteed to work together in dual tri or quad channel, buying 2 kits of double doesn't guarantee they will work together in quad channel even though they probably will 99% of the time, I honestly wouldn't spend too much time thinking about it beyond what you've already learnt

 

[Aenra]

Hint taken. We can all happily conclude i was a moron and the first kit was good enough, lol

(there, i said it..)

edit: and thank you all for your patience. Can often appear as a stubborn c*&t, i know, but it's just my way of thinking. Sometimes, phrasing is just as important as the fact stated, it occasionally needs be expressed in a way in line with my own for me to be certain i 'get it'. No, lol, they haven't locked me up yet ^^