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Console Porting is killing PC Gaming PQ.

Have Games Stagnated, and who would you blame?

  • Weak Spec Consoles (Age Old Hardware)

    Votes: 26 21.3%
  • Lazy Game Developers (Cheap Console Ports)

    Votes: 53 43.4%
  • Both AMD & NVIDIA (Messed up Drivers)

    Votes: 2 1.6%
  • All of the Above

    Votes: 22 18.0%
  • None of the Above

    Votes: 19 15.6%

  • Total voters
    122
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The PS4 will NOT use a 7970-equivalent GPU. It's more likely to be something to the tune of a 7770. I also highly doubt they will use an AMD CPU. It's more likely that they will go for something like a Power7-based PowerPC CPU (so developers embrace the system better due to its similar design to other consoles) and a 7770 level GPU--maybe pushing for 7800-series level performance. The big limiting factors are cost, power consumption and heat. You cant shove a massive power hungry GPU into the equivalent of a Micro-ITX case with minimal airflow, and have it run properly. They would basically end up taking a $300-400 GPU and undervolting and underclocking it to the performance level of a $100 GPU anyway, just to get it to run without catching on fire or requiring multiple power connectors.

As for the Xbox 720 (Codename Durango), it's rumored to use a PowerPC-based CPU with a similar design to Bulldozer almost, running high numbers of threads through Core's with shared resources. Last I heard they were having some real bad issues with yield, so who knows how it's going these days. Once again, 6950 is pushing it, more than likely if they go for a 6xxx series-based solution, a 6770 or 6850, or a Southern Islands-based solution, a 7770 or 7750.

The Wii U's a piece of crap.
I highly doubt Sony will play 2nd fiddle and will reach again partly in spec. I can't see them dipping any lower than a 7870 and most likely we'll get a cut rate 7970~7950.

And how is the Wii U crap? For its price its neat hardware. Tablet controller with hardware that probably sips power and having 2GB of shared ram (compared to Xbox 360 512mb of shared and PS3 256/256 dedicated).
 
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I highly doubt Sony will play 2nd fiddle and will reach again partly in spec. I can't see them dipping any lower than a 7870 and most likely we'll get a cut rate 7970~7950.
Sony's only real hardware problems were a lot greater than having a slightly lower end GPU. The RSX was a nightmare to program for, Sony's development kits were shit for the first 2-4 years it was out, their distribution of RAM was absurd, and their hardware forced the price of their console through the roof. Sony has already stated they will not release another Console that costs nearly as much as the PS3 did. Microsoft sold the 360 at a massive loss for several years, and their parts aside from the GPU were largely cheaper than Sony in every way (very noticable considering it has something like 2-3x the failure rate).

Now obviously with the cost of Blu-Ray coming down that cuts a huge amount off cost, but it's more than likely Sony will go for a more normal CPU to provide a better environment for multi-platform games, and will use a mid-level GPU to keep costs down and heat\power usage down as well. A 7970 does none of those things. It's more likely they honestly will go with a 6xxx series based GPU to the tune of a 6850 since they could buy them in bulk for cheap, and they are well balanced GPU's. Why on Earth would they get a 7970 or 7950 which has tons of unnecessary and costly GPGPU resources on it for a Gaming Console? It just doesn't make sense financially or even logically.

And how is the Wii U crap? For its price its neat hardware. Tablet controller with hardware that probably sips power and having 2GB of shared ram (compared to Xbox 360 512mb of shared and PS3 256/256 dedicated).
Most of the "launch" titles won't be out until early next year, it is just a 360 CPU with a better GPU and more memory (but RAM is dirt cheap these days anyway), the Tablet controllers can only be used one at a time at launch (and I doubt 2 will ever be useable), there is 0 information available about the online platform Nintendo is building but I assume it's going to be crap just like the Wii's was, it has minimal internal storage, it cannot play Blu-Ray movies or DVD's, you need to use 2 controllers to have a microphone used in most games where you would use it (the "Pro" controller has no microphone port, but the Tablet does), the tablet controller has a really low quality non-multi touch display, the tablet controllers cost $100+ to repair or replace, and a number of other things but most of the things that annoy me are in that list.
 
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I blame "none of the above" and I'm not the only one apparently. :D
 

MatTheCat

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I highly doubt Sony will play 2nd fiddle and will reach again partly in spec. I can't see them dipping any lower than a 7870 and most likely we'll get a cut rate 7970~7950.
Is there any actual facts being discussed in this thread or is it all just wishful thinking and/or what people would like to be believe? Because I personally, can't see Microsoft dipping any lower than dual 7990's and releasing the xbox720° console with 360° degree visibility helmets. All this for sub €300! I can't wait!
 
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I'd say its not just the PQ that is getting killed. Games are getting dumbed down, just look at Civ V and XCOM, so silly compared to Civ IV and the original XCOM. (Not as obvious in XCOM as in Civ V though).

Oh and to bring something to the discussion of console gaming vs. pc gaming I give you League of Legends :)

 
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Sony's only real hardware problems were a lot greater than having a slightly lower end GPU. The RSX was a nightmare to program for, Sony's development kits were shit for the first 2-4 years it was out, their distribution of RAM was absurd, and their hardware forced the price of their console through the roof. Sony has already stated they will not release another Console that costs nearly as much as the PS3 did. Microsoft sold the 360 at a massive loss for several years, and their parts aside from the GPU were largely cheaper than Sony in every way (very noticable considering it has something like 2-3x the failure rate).

Now obviously with the cost of Blu-Ray coming down that cuts a huge amount off cost, but it's more than likely Sony will go for a more normal CPU to provide a better environment for multi-platform games, and will use a mid-level GPU to keep costs down and heat\power usage down as well. A 7970 does none of those things. It's more likely they honestly will go with a 6xxx series based GPU to the tune of a 6850 since they could buy them in bulk for cheap, and they are well balanced GPU's. Why on Earth would they get a 7970 or 7950 which has tons of unnecessary and costly GPGPU resources on it for a Gaming Console? It just doesn't make sense financially or even logically.



Most of the "launch" titles won't be out until early next year, it is just a 360 CPU with a better GPU and more memory (but RAM is dirt cheap these days anyway), the Tablet controllers can only be used one at a time at launch (and I doubt 2 will ever be useable), there is 0 information available about the online platform Nintendo is building but I assume it's going to be crap just like the Wii's was, it has minimal internal storage, it cannot play Blu-Ray movies or DVD's, you need to use 2 controllers to have a microphone used in most games where you would use it (the "Pro" controller has no microphone port, but the Tablet does), the tablet controller has a really low quality non-multi touch display, the tablet controllers cost $100+ to repair or replace, and a number of other things but most of the things that annoy me are in that list.
no friend codes. online is free. Nintendo is giving publishers freedom to implement their own online solutions instead of following a TCR like Microsoft.

it comes with 32GB of flash memory but you can add any external hard drive you want. the PS3 optical drive reads at 9mb/s but the Wii U reads at 22mb/s so you don't need to install games.
 
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no friend codes. online is free. Nintendo is giving publishers freedom to implement their own online solutions instead of following a TCR like Microsoft.

it comes with 32GB of flash memory but you can add any external hard drive you want. the PS3 optical drive reads at 9mb/s but the Wii U reads at 22mb/s so you don't need to install games.
Don't bother Bee. :toast:
 
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Is there any actual facts being discussed in this thread or is it all just wishful thinking and/or what people would like to be believe? Because I personally, can't see Microsoft dipping any lower than dual 7990's and releasing the xbox720° console with 360° degree visibility helmets. All this for sub €300! I can't wait!
None of the stuff I'm talking about is 'wishful' thinking you sarcastic ass.
 

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I wouldn't blame drivers, even though you get a few perfomance boosts by a small percentage, the current bleeding edge hardware is more than enough to deal with the most intensive games.
The issue with game devs is that an ENORMOUS amount of their income comes from console games. Like the example above of the amount of players for MW3 on steam compared to XBL, the difference is millions. Those people probably paid $50+ for MW3 on the 360, and the steam users likely paid a little less. Do the maths, if i was a game dev, i wouldnt bother making games for pc to make 30,000+ people happy, I'd rather sap the money from the console players. The AAA titles are all released for consoles because that's what sells.
The issue with the actual console hardware is it's +-7 years old and counting, and those 7 year old machines can run those AAA titles with ease because of the optimisation. The same cant be said for a PC that's 7 years old. Unfortunately when playing those games with what appears to be excellent graphical fidelity, manufacturers dont see the point in advancing hardware to skyhigh limits when they can create a 360 so cheaply to run what the huge population wants.
It's all down to money, what saves it, and what makes it. Not everyone can afford mid to high end gaming rigs to run games when they come out at maximum settings, like crysis, as it costs in excess of a thousand for something brutally awesome, when they can pay a couple of hundred for a generic device that has become so popular. I know every household in my town more than likely has a 360, theyre so cheap.
It's hard to make serious money like that of League of Legends or World of Warcraft on PC. But for consoles, you have yourself a franchise, and consumers throw their money at you incessantly.
 
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None of the stuff I'm talking about is 'wishful' thinking you sarcastic ass.
Then prove it with reputable links!
 
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no friend codes. online is free. Nintendo is giving publishers freedom to implement their own online solutions instead of following a TCR like Microsoft.

it comes with 32GB of flash memory but you can add any external hard drive you want. the PS3 optical drive reads at 9mb/s but the Wii U reads at 22mb/s so you don't need to install games.
http://www.heavy.com/games/game-previews/2012/09/wii-u-top-10-facts-you-need-to-know/

#8

And I know you can add external hard drives, but that's an additional purchase driving up the overall cost of the system. As for Flash Memory there is a 32GB version and 8GB version of the system, the 32GB package is pretty much sold out already, and since Nintendo has artificially limited the amount of systems sold since the SNES to drive up demand, it will probably be a while before any are available at retail price. The Optical Drive in the PS3 is crappy by todays standards, but installing games should have never really been a necessity. While having high capacity Blu-Ray discs was nice, only have a 9MB/s drive was crap when even the 360 managed 15MB/s.

Nintendo has yet to actually show the online portion of the Wii U, and I doubt you'll see it until a few days before the system launches. The whole Online thing is something Nintendo just cannot seem to get working.

None of the stuff I'm talking about is 'wishful' thinking you sarcastic ass.
It's entirely wishful thinking because you have no actual sources to back up your claims.
 
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Then prove it with reputable links!
Meant to say rumors.

Most insiders pushing out info about the Nintendo Wii U was true.

We'll see in the coming year when Sony finally announces its Orb spec list. But again I highly doubt they'll go with a 7660. Lowest I can see them going at is a personal 7870.

While having high capacity Blu-Ray discs was nice, only have a 9MB/s drive was crap when even the 360 managed 15MB/s.
Show me a BR player at the time that had a faster read time than the PS3 for around the same price.

Sony could have gone with DVD route that MS took but look who is hurting who in the console development right now.
And no it wasn't a "necessity" to have a mandatory install for PS3, that one you can truly say was on developers who did not want to figure a way around it.
 

MatTheCat

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Meant to say rumors.

Most insiders pushing out info about the Nintendo Wii U was true.

We'll see in the coming year when Sony finally announces its Orb spec list. But again I highly doubt they'll go with a 7660. Lowest I can see them going at is a personal 7870.
Yeah...done a google and there seems to be lots of rumours:

http://www.dnaindia.com/scitech/review_microsoft-xbox-720-what-we-know-so-far_1727600

In the above article the author states:

2* AMD 8 Core Bulldozer CPU's
2* AMD's latest 7000 series GPU
Games on Bluray.

Erm...and how much is this console going to cost?

P.S. My favourite 'rumour' is mouse and keyboard compatibility. BS of course, as they would be putting the vast majority of armchair/gamepad gamers at a huge disadvantage in much of thier online gaming.
 
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Yeah...done a google and there seems to be lots of rumours:

http://www.dnaindia.com/scitech/review_microsoft-xbox-720-what-we-know-so-far_1727600

In the above article the author states:

2* AMD 8 Core Bulldozer CPU's
2* AMD's latest 7000 series GPU
Games on Bluray.

Erm...and how much is this console going to cost?

P.S. My favourite 'rumour' is mouse and keyboard compatibility. BS of course, as they would be putting the vast majority of armchair/gamepad gamers at a huge disadvantage in much of thier online gaming.
400-600 dollars probably.

The PS3 already has keyboard and mouse support, logitech was the biggest pusher of KB/Mouse for the PS3 when it launched.

CSGO supports KB/Mouse, BF3 used too till patch and you can even use a workaround however to use a KB/Mouse, UT3 has KB/Mouse support, etc etc.

Its just a handful of games but Sony has given that option to developers IF they want to implement it.
 
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Lazy game devs.

I will put up with some issues in PC gaming, as long as they patch it. I will buy DLC, as long as its good.


I won't buy the trash like Atari, Ubisoft, and a few other companies put out, just due to their underhanded BS business practices. I don't hate a lot, but when a company or person makes it onto that list they are there for a long, long, long time.
 
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400-600 dollars probably.

The PS3 already has keyboard and mouse support, logitech was the biggest pusher of KB/Mouse for the PS3 when it launched.

CSGO supports KB/Mouse, BF3 used too till patch and you can even use a workaround however to use a KB/Mouse, UT3 has KB/Mouse support, etc etc.

Its just a handful of games but Sony has given that option to developers IF they want to implement it.
The article he posted is flat out bull shit. If that article were taken seriously you'd be expecting dual FX-8150's with Crossfired 7970's. For a PC that would cost upwards of $1000, there's no way you're going to make a $400 console with anything close to that. I don't think they will stray from PowerPC.

Sony has flat out said they will not sell their next console at such a high price point, probably closer to what the 360 was at launch. I'd be amazed if any console clears $500 this time around, and would at the same time say any console that does break that is going to be the worst selling one. Sony is not doing so well in really any of its divisions, and probably wants to bridge the gap between their "hardcore" system and the "casual" Wii to try and get their software sales combined with the Wii's hardware sales. Microsoft is in a similar boat,

There are working KB\Mouse setups for every consoles that you can buy if you so choose, but they are really expensive and if you want a KB\Mouse just get the PC version which should logically be better in every way.

Lazy game devs.

I will put up with some issues in PC gaming, as long as they patch it. I will buy DLC, as long as its good.


I won't buy the trash like Atari, Ubisoft, and a few other companies put out, just due to their underhanded BS business practices. I don't hate a lot, but when a company or person makes it onto that list they are there for a long, long, long time.
So because the Publishers have shitty business practices the developers are to blame? :confused:
 
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1- you're a consumer. You are not a hardware giant buying parts in bulk.

2- Sony has Stated they're dropping cell and nvidia picking up all AMD for the PS4

3- we're talking about native keyboard/mouse support for the ps3
 

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There are working KB\Mouse setups for every consoles that you can buy if you so choose, but they are really expensive and if you want a KB\Mouse just get the PC version which should logically be better in every way.
Perhaps they are...but if the keyboard/mouse combo in games works as well as it does on the PC, then those (the majority) gaming on gamepads are going to get pwned online....

....Would a console maker really risk alienating the majority of thier customers to please a few?
 
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Perhaps they are...but if the keyboard/mouse combo in games works as well as it does on the PC, then those (the majority) gaming on gamepads are going to get pwned online....

....Would a console maker really risk alienating the majority of thier customers to please a few?
Of course they won't. They're exploiting the ignorance of the console gaming peasants, why would they then alienate a sizable proportion of those with just gamepads and cater to the select few who are trying to mimic the superior PC gaming race by using a kb/mouse combo for their proletariat excuse of a gaming contraption?
 
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Perhaps they are...but if the keyboard/mouse combo in games works as well as it does on the PC, then those (the majority) gaming on gamepads are going to get pwned online....

....Would a console maker really risk alienating the majority of thier customers to please a few?
Didn't we already go over this?

The PS3 already supports Keyboard and Mouse. Now its up to the developer if they want to put kb/mouse support in their games, than its up to the owner of their PS3 if they want to use it or not if the game supports it.
 
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I think it's a combination of a few factors.

DirectX, Microsoft, And the lack of a unified cross platform hardware standard.

DirectX is a limiting factor because it's only available on 2 of the platforms, Added into that Microsoft actively endorses DirectX with publishers. This means that Open GL doesn't get used for a large proportion of the games industry when Open GL is probably the least restrictive API in terms of platform.

Had Microsoft allowed openGL to function on an xbox then we would see games on more platforms with less cost in development. We would potentially see, Xbox, PS3(open cl), Windows, OSX, and linux. With the harder programming been for the PS3. However since Xbox doesn't allow for the use of open GL we see a game been developed in DX9, then ported to Open CL and then again to DX10-11.

The lack of a unified hardware standard means bare metal programming is also unusable, as we saw with dos gaming.

The biggest overall problem comes from the manufacturers and the software limitations they put on there machines. Had DX been available on PS3 it would have been utilised but M$ would never allow that. Had Open GL been available on Xbox then the trend would have swung to open GL. And without the ability or permission to allow a 3rd api to be used as a bridge between both platforms then developers are always going to have to maintain the higher cost of development.

PC as a development tool gets stuck in the middle, Most games are designed for console simply because consoles have stricter limitations. You can't expect a game to run badly on a console and then force the consumer to upgrade as happens in the PC market. If you get it wrong it will always be wrong. Likewise games developed on just 1 platform tend to be stronger overall. There is always the odd exceptional title that will defy this but overall a stand alone title on 1 platform will make the absolute most of the platform.


As for console porting killing PC IQ, I think your mistaken, As games are ported up to pc, Not down to console. This is why you see a lot of games appear with DX9-10 standards rather than the DX11 PC standard. Added into that PC's own standards mean that games ported up will make every optimisation for the console look as cut down as they actually are. Wireframes, and textures often show the worst of this, as a higher resolution and the reduction in the distance between user and screen always show off the worst in a game. Wireframes make the perfect example of how hard a Port up can be, since for the most part you have to completely redraw the framework, and this up-scaling is not just on the objects in you view all the time, everything has to be redrawn, Objects, buildings, terrain details, even stupid stuff like explosion debris. The workload is pretty huge.


One of the solutions to the problems at the lower end of the market is using Java, as the program can run on a lot of platforms. Added to that because it is in essence a virtual machine there is no need to create different versions of a game to run on multiple platforms. The Java program is specific to the operating system and hardware, but the function, coding and execution of a program within a Java application is always identical.
 
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MatTheCat

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Didn't we already go over this?

The PS3 already supports Keyboard and Mouse. Now its up to the developer if they want to put kb/mouse support in their games, than its up to the owner of their PS3 if they want to use it or not if the game supports it.
Oh!?

and what games actually support the keyboard and mouse combination?
 

eidairaman1

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Oh!?

and what games actually support the keyboard and mouse combination?
wouldnt be surprised if its the same games you find on PC which are FPS/TPS based lmao, probably emulates GP input but without the deadzone that a Stick has
 
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PS3:
  • Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
  • DUST 514
  • Unreal Tournament 3
That's a LOT. :laugh:

Then there's Xim.
 
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400-600 dollars probably.

The PS3 already has keyboard and mouse support, logitech was the biggest pusher of KB/Mouse for the PS3 when it launched.

CSGO supports KB/Mouse, BF3 used too till patch and you can even use a workaround however to use a KB/Mouse, UT3 has KB/Mouse support, etc etc.

Its just a handful of games but Sony has given that option to developers IF they want to implement it.
Oh!?

and what games actually support the keyboard and mouse combination?
:rolleyes: /golfclap at actually reading other peoples post

PS3:
  • Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
  • DUST 514
  • Unreal Tournament 3
That's a LOT. :laugh:

Then there's Xim.
Once again its up to the developers as Sony does allow it :rolleyes: