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Do you believe the new navi cards will be released with stable drivers?

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Nvidia: bugs numbered and description is precise and narrowed down to specifics.

Or so it seems, like I wrote above Detroit Become Human doesn't just crash for me, it crashes the entire system (probably just the driver but I have to restart the PC anyway). And all games stutter when using GPU hardware scheduling. None of those things are written in there, so it's not precises at all.
 
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Really... what stands out to me in the above lists is a difference in documentation and administration more than anything.
Nvidia: bugs numbered and description is precise and narrowed down to specifics.
AMD: "bad stuff may happen while doing XYZ". And that includes standard activity like a simple alt tab (?!?!?!)...
While doing stuff to put it in amds terms

Well, you know what they say - it's hard to pinpoint a bug, when you have a colony... :D
They need an exterminator

Or so it seems, like I wrote above Detroit Become Human doesn't just crash for me, it crashes the entire system (probably just the driver but I have to restart the PC anyway). And all games stutter when using GPU hardware scheduling. None of those things are written in there, so it's not precises at all.
Must be your ryzen Im getting better gpu utilization,higher fps and no stutter with hags
 

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Really... what stands out to me in the above lists is a difference in documentation and administration more than anything.
Nvidia: bugs numbered and description is precise and narrowed down to specifics.
AMD: "bad stuff may happen while doing XYZ". And that includes standard activity like a simple alt tab (?!?!?!)...
AMD has it all internally in JIRA but JIRA doesn't output a plain English interpretation of tickets; ergo, AMD's list is the result of a manager or engineer looking through the list and summarizing some of the highlights. It is never exhaustive; issues are fixed that are never listed and not all known issues are listed as well, just more prolific ones that they intend to fix.
 
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Since this is acknowledged in the drivers release notes, it would indicate AMD thinks it's a driver issue.
Well, if they would ACK that this is a hardware issue, guess what it would happen. Refunds of millions of dollars.
I tend to believe this is not a hardware bug, since the same cards are working fine on Linux and Mac OS, BUT those OSes are much more simple in terms of GPU usages so the scenario far less random to trigger the issues that people see.
In any case, I think there should be a law which states that if more than 5-10% of the products are bad, then the manufacturer should be forbidden to sell it and get back to the drawing board.
 
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Well, if they would ACK that this is a hardware issue, guess what it would happen. Refunds of millions of dollars.
I tend to believe this is not a hardware bug, since the same cards are working fine on Linux and Mac OS, BUT those OSes are much more simple in terms of GPU usages so the scenario far less random to trigger the issues that people see.
In any case, I think there should be a law which states that if more than 5-10% of the products are bad, then the manufacturer should be forbidden to sell it and get back to the drawing board.
Yeah this would be a massive recall
 
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people are bringing up consoles, i don't think this has much to do with them. since the systems run their own os and companies are developing games for those consoles and testing them, its much easier to fix issues because the hardware is static (doesn't change). in a pc, all of the components are different and interchangeable, the os, and the 3d api's (dx12, vulcan). your running background software of varying quality that could affect the drivers running the cards.
A very key difference, but the difference in a controlled software environment is much more important than the hardware config. A PC user runs all kinds of applications in the background, including a web browser, which does a lot of requests to the graphics driver all the time. A graphics driver needs to be able to handle all kinds of "misbehavior" from these tasks without affecting stability. Graphics developers experiences how much such "misbehavior" the drivers can handle, and there is a large difference between AMD and Nvidia in this regard, which ultimately is what end users experiences as more stable drivers, although hard to prove scientifically.

An occasional glitch is one thing, but struggling with crashes for years is not acceptable. Last time I checked we live in year 2020, this is no longer the late 90s when we were lucky to have a game night with less than three crashes…

i don't think companies will release a driver if they know it is not stable, this goes for nvidia as well.
New Tech will always have issues, that is the nature of new tech.
Such decisions are usually done by non-technical people, and they have to answer to their superiors if they postpone a launch.

It all comes down to how seriously they take the problem.
It's a very good chance that their driver team understands this well, while project managers dismiss it as a minor issue. I know they've had some shakeups in their team, but after years of the same problems, some of their competent engineers needs to see the pattern. But this doesn't mean they can convince their superiors to make a driver overhaul the top priority. (but it should be)

Well, you know what they say - it's hard to pinpoint a bug, when you have a colony... :D
They need an exterminator
Yeah, but when you have a recurring bug problem for years, do you fight the symptoms, or do you fight the cause?
 

bug

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They were all sent by board partners.
I was hoping I could rule out cherry-picking...

Well, if they would ACK that this is a hardware issue, guess what it would happen. Refunds of millions of dollars.
I tend to believe this is not a hardware bug, since the same cards are working fine on Linux and Mac OS, BUT those OSes are much more simple in terms of GPU usages so the scenario far less random to trigger the issues that people see.

I don't know about macOS, but Linux is not simpler at all. Nvidia, for example, uses the exact same driver with a thin wrapper on top. A lot of games run on Linux, without a problem. Of course, Linux does not have DX, it's all translated to OpenGL (or Vulkan).
But it would be interesting to look at AMD on Linux, AMD has the Catalyst as well as the fully open source driver.

In any case, I think there should be a law which states that if more than 5-10% of the products are bad, then the manufacturer should be forbidden to sell it and get back to the drawing board.
How do you define "bad" wrt such a complex product? Is the driver part of the product?
It's a nice idea, if impractical.
 
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I was hoping I could rule out cherry-picking...
Wait, how can they be cherry-picking if they also can't identify the source of the issue nor reliably recreate it in their testing? That is quite clearly a case where one option logically precludes the other.
 

bug

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Wait, how can they be cherry-picking if they also can't identify the source of the issue nor reliably recreate it in their testing? That is quite clearly a case where one option logically precludes the other.
That's how logical implication works: buy the cards yourself -> no cherry-picking. The reverse is not necessarily true.
Frankly, I don't suspect cherry-picking, I was looking for some info that would allow me to rule it out.
 
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Really... what stands out to me in the above lists is a difference in documentation and administration more than anything.
Nvidia: bugs numbered and description is precise and narrowed down to specifics.
AMD: "bad stuff may happen while doing XYZ". And that includes standard activity like a simple alt tab (?!?!?!)...
True , but remember ,the point Was that no chip is made and released without fault's.
It's not possible or done.

The new Navi and Ampere cards Will have issues.
 
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That's how logical implication works: buy the cards yourself -> no cherry-picking. The reverse is not necessarily true.
Frankly, I don't suspect cherry-picking, I was looking for some info that would allow me to rule it out.
And I would argue that the seeming inability to reliably replicate the errors in testing itself rules out cherry-picking - how do you cherry-pick something if you don't know which factors to select for?
 
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stability in a standard testing suite
...but isn't the entire issue here that a standard testing suite doesn't reproduce these issues? Cherry-picking samples from results in a testing suite that doesn't reproduce the issues in question is essentially the same as a random selection of samples, at least in terms of statistical probability of them then having the issues in question when put into the testers' systems. Your statement assumes a correlation between the general stability of a single GPU in standardized testing and the elusive black-screen issue, which nobody has so far been able to establish, including AMD's own testing labs.
 
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...but isn't the entire issue here that a standard testing suite doesn't reproduce these issues? Cherry-picking samples from results in a testing suite that doesn't reproduce the issues in question is essentially the same as a random selection of samples, at least in terms of statistical probability of them then having the issues in question when put into the testers' systems.
if you know a given card works on a given driver with a given application then you could cherry pick if you wanted to.
we'll never know what is going on tho.
 

bug

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And I would argue that the seeming inability to reliably replicate the errors in testing itself rules out cherry-picking - how do you cherry-pick something if you don't know which factors to select for?
It's not that hard. Reviewers have their setups out in the open (both hardware and software), just make sure it works fine on a similar setup.

I mean, like posted above, if AMD knew this was a hardware thing and didn't want to deal with returns, they would intentionally leave this as not reproducible and try to shift attention to the drivers. Which would include cherry-picking of parts sent from review.
I don't think AMD does this (in general, I don't like it when people paint companies as evil, I don't want to do the same), but since AMD does not give us a root cause, we cannot rule this out entirely, no matter how improbable it is.
NB There are a million other possible causes for this, this one is just a sample of what my mind can come up with.

True , but remember ,the point Was that no chip is made and released without fault's.
It's not possible or done.

The new Navi and Ampere cards Will have issues.
You do realize talking about release problems almost a year after launch only paints you desperately grasping at straws, don't you?
 
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You do realize talking about release problems almost a year after launch only paints you desperately grasping at straws, don't you?
no.
 
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It's not that hard. Reviewers have their setups out in the open (both hardware and software), just make sure it works fine on a similar setup.
Haven't there been reports of AMD struggling to reproduce this even in test systems configured identically to users experiencing the issue?
I mean, like posted above, if AMD knew this was a hardware thing and didn't want to deal with returns, they would intentionally leave this as not reproducible and try to shift attention to the drivers. Which would include cherry-picking of parts sent from review.
I don't think AMD does this (in general, I don't like it when people paint companies as evil, I don't want to do the same), but since AMD does not give us a root cause, we cannot rule this out entirely, no matter how improbable it is.
NB There are a million other possible causes for this, this one is just a sample of what my mind can come up with.
Doesn't the wording
Some users may still experience black screen or system hang issues during extended periods of gameplay. AMD will continue to monitor and investigate reports of these issues closely.
strongly imply that they have yet to positively identify the source of these black screens? Some seem to have been due to Enhanced Sync, as that is singled out as its own point, but this point clearly states that this is as of yet unknown and under investigation. I agree that this could theoretically be an attempt at hiding a known hardware bug, though that seems unlikely to me - a hardware bug typically means a hardware design bug and not hardware manufacturing, which should then be near universally reproducible even if it requires multiple other variables to be in place. It's still really bad that AMD hasn't fixed this yet; I'm just hoping they are pouring some of that currently abundant Ryzen money into RTG and go on a hiring spree for their driver development team.
if you know a given card works on a given driver with a given application then you could cherry pick if you wanted to.
we'll never know what is going on tho.
Again: the seemingly random and difficult-to-reproduce nature of the black screen issue contradicts statements like that. If an issue isn't reproducible, that means precisely that you can't know if a given card that you have tested and found working in a given system with a given driver running a given application will perform the same in a different system with the same variables being controlled for. If that was the case, reproducing the issue would be as simple as assembling a system identical to the people experiencing the issue. That clearly isn't the case.
 
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Haven't there been reports of AMD struggling to reproduce this even in test systems configured identically to users experiencing the issue?

Doesn't the wording

strongly imply that they have yet to positively identify the source of these black screens? Some seem to have been due to Enhanced Sync, as that is singled out as its own point, but this point clearly states that this is as of yet unknown and under investigation. I agree that this could theoretically be an attempt at hiding a known hardware bug, though that seems unlikely to me - a hardware bug typically means a hardware design bug and not hardware manufacturing, which should then be near universally reproducible even if it requires multiple other variables to be in place. It's still really bad that AMD hasn't fixed this yet; I'm just hoping they are pouring some of that currently abundant Ryzen money into RTG and go on a hiring spree for their driver development team.

Again: the seemingly random and difficult-to-reproduce nature of the black screen issue contradicts statements like that. If an issue isn't reproducible, that means precisely that you can't know if a given card that you have tested and found working in a given system with a given driver running a given application will perform the same in a different system with the same variables being controlled for. If that was the case, reproducing the issue would be as simple as assembling a system identical to the people experiencing the issue. That clearly isn't the case.
Yes but you arent interpreting "reproducing" correctly.
AMD cant reproduce them on their own samples not your sample.
 
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It just dawned on me...

this is the actual legacy of Raja! He gave each card a random trick just for giggles
 
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Yes but you arent interpreting "reproducing" correctly.
AMD cant reproduce them on their own samples not your sample.
I never said they could or couldn't reproduce it on users' cards, though availability of cards that have had issues for testing is of course a tricky proposition. Nonetheless, in the year these cards have been on the market it really shouldn't be difficult for AMD to get their hands on a decent selection of these - some of them are bound to have been RMA'ed, and for others it shouldn't be more difficult than to track down users with severe issues and ask if they would send in their cards for testing if they were first provided with a replacement. Even barring this, AMD should really have access to sufficient numbers of cards for testing that some with issues would show up even in an entirely random selection of testing cards off production lines. Of course, if the errors require (for example) both specific silicon characteristics AND a highly specific system setup, that would be near impossible to reproduce.

Besides that though, we were specifically talking about the possibility of AMD cherry-picking review samples here, not about the error in general (at least at the point when you jumped into the discussion between me and @bug). So while this logical reversal is applicable in most cases, it isn't a valid argument against the (seeming) lack of reproducibility of these errors making cherry-picking impossible.
 
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Agnostic? Maybe, but probably not. In the middle.

How the hell has Navi anything with God? Its hot, but not Fury hot. AMD is closer to Hell.
 
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All this talk of reproducing bugs is funny. If it'was just a matter of having the card and the drivers installed, even AMD would have solved the issues a long time ago.

These issues, when they exist and they aren't user error, probably come from interactions between existing garbage in the registers, old driver rests, bad windows updates, bad VC++ redistributable installs, DirectX, ActiveX, etc. Good luck with finding the good combination in a relatively clean test environment.

The "easisest" way to debug this would be that people with these types of issues give remote access to AMD engineers so that they can do the debugging on the culprit computer. I imagine that the biggest trouble for AMD is not to fix the bugs, but to actually reproduce them on test environments. And I still maintain that if people would do that, we would discover that more than 95% of the time it's user error or some other random system issue that has nothing to do with the drivers themselves.
 
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It's not that hard. Reviewers have their setups out in the open (both hardware and software), just make sure it works fine on a similar setup.

I mean, like posted above, if AMD knew this was a hardware thing and didn't want to deal with returns, they would intentionally leave this as not reproducible and try to shift attention to the drivers. Which would include cherry-picking of parts sent from review.
I don't think AMD does this (in general, I don't like it when people paint companies as evil, I don't want to do the same), but since AMD does not give us a root cause, we cannot rule this out entirely, no matter how improbable it is.
NB There are a million other possible causes for this, this one is just a sample of what my mind can come up with.


You do realize talking about release problems almost a year after launch only paints you desperately grasping at straws, don't you?
Your reading comprehension skills are grasping at straws pal.

Your here talking about Navi 10 a year old part.

I'm talking about every chip the big three ever made.

All having faults.

Every time.

All the time.

I split it for ease of reading.


So what I am saying is this thread is bollox.


Name a chip release with no issues from the big three it doesn't happen, forget perception.

I didn't grade issues like some.

So all in I'm saying this thread needs closing , no one ever brought out a GPU without issues.


The fact that some are worse is unimportant at this juncture.
 
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