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Dual channel memory

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it seems modern laptops and maybe ready made desktop machines come with a single stick of memory installed..

so if you want 16 gb of ram buy an 8 gb machine and add the second 8 gb stick yourself.. dual channel does improve performance..

its supposed to make a ram upgrade easier and cheaper when ran costs were higher.. but the thinking is behind the times now ram is cheaper..

trog
 
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And your point here is?

Just keep in mind that many laptops today has the RAM soldered down and no slot to add a second stick.
 
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And your point here is?

Just keep in mind that many laptops today has the RAM soldered down and no slot to add a second stick.
even the ones that do have dual slots now come with only one slot filled.. my point should be obvious.. do most people know this.. no they dont.. now a few more might..

trog
 
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even the ones that do have dual slots now come with only one slot filled.. my point should be obvious.. do most people know this.. no they dont.. now a few more might..

trog

BTW, some only come with ONE memory slot. So your assertion, is not always true.
 
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so if you want 16 gb of ram buy an 8 gb machine and add the second 8 gb stick yourself.. dual channel does improve performance..

its supposed to make a ram upgrade easier and cheaper when ran costs were higher.. but the thinking is behind the times now ram is cheaper..
Sorry trog, but your thinking and logic do not hold water. What is NOT very obvious to many is dual channel does NOT provide the performance gains the marketing weenies first boasted it would. The hyped up marketing claims suggested dual channel could provide "double" the RAM performance. And on paper, "in theory", under certain specific scenarios, it could. But in "real world" usage, it quickly became obvious dual channel provided only marginal performance gains over single channel - at best!

More RAM is what provides the most gains, not the fact it is running in dual channel.
but the thinking is behind the times now ram is cheaper..
Ummm, no. Sorry but this is just wrong - and with the tariffs and trade wars (along with supplies of raw materials), is not likely to improve in the foreseeable future. With just a little bit of homework with Bing Google, it is easy to see RAM prices have been on a slow but steady uphill climb for 3 years now. So it is you who are being the times :(. And that makes your advice illogical. As a tiny bit of homework shows, RAM prices are not expected to go down any time soon, and in fact, are likely to climb. So the better advice is to build or buy a computer with as much (or better yet, more) RAM as you will ever need right from the start.

There's another logical reason for buying all your RAM at the beginning - compatibility. This is especially true if you want it to run in dual channel mode. Ideally - for the best chances of compatibility - you want identical sticks for dual channel. That is, same brand and model number. If you decide to add RAM in 2 or 3 years, finding matching RAM may be a real challenge and/or expensive, if even possible at all.

For sure, if building, buying or upgrading, shoot for dual (or triple - depending on motherboard) channel capability. But remember, it is really more RAM that gives you the most bang for your money. That is, I will take 16GB in single mode any day over 8GB in dual-channel (or 12GB in triple).
 
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i have just been watching a few recent gaming laptop reviews.. they do prove with side by side gaming frame rate examples in dual and single channel configurations that there can be a significant performance difference..

one guy says be prepared to buy more memory.. google is your friend bill try using it.. :)

admittedly the reviews were about the latest gaming laptops.. not cheapo low performance ones..

trog
 
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Ummm, no. Sorry but this is just wrong - and with the tariffs and trade wars (along with supplies of raw materials), is not likely to improve in the foreseeable future. With just a little bit of homework with Bing Google, it is easy to see RAM prices have been on a slow but steady uphill climb for 3 years now.
Poppycock! Why does your chart show prices only from the beginning of 2016 to the beginning of 2018??? This is the history, from PCPartPicker, for that same RAM over the last two years (wish I could go back 3 years), including the crypto inflation:



Is RAM as low as it was in early 2016? No, not quite, but that was historically low, and terriffs have nothing to do with it. And if you bought that laptop around the beginning of 2018, adding the extra 8 GB (example) would have cost $200! (okay, I'm just guessing. but it seems like I recall numbers in that area) My daughter has a Dell with 2 populated slots, so in order to upgrade to 16 GB, we have to replace both, but that can now be had for under $70!

So, @trog100 is right; Now is a good time to upgrade your RAM. (regardless of any dual channel benefits)
 
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I have to agree with Bill on this one, I recall reading a review two or three years ago showing minimal gains in dual channel for most tasks and gaming. It proved dual channel was better but not by margins people would lose sleep on.
 
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try this video if still in doubt.. whats changed is the modern tendency to ship machines with just one slot filled.. what used to be 2 x 8 is now 1 x 16..


trog
 
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Seems my own homework was lacking! :oops: Sorry about that. Nevertheless I stand by everything else I said. More RAM trumps faster RAM.

I would also point out, since RAM prices are cheaper (for now), it would still be better to buy all the RAM you think you might need now, instead of buying less then hoping to find compatible RAM to add more later - for the reasons I said above.
 
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Why is this such a hot item? Nothing is new here and for the vast majority and casual use single channel is quite fine.

The price of RAM actually doesnt play a huge role in this: for most its simply too much hassle and for those who value the added performance, they know how to get it... right?

Also, timing..
 
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it seems modern laptops and maybe ready made desktop machines come with a single stick of memory installed..

so if you want 16 gb of ram buy an 8 gb machine and add the second 8 gb stick yourself.. dual channel does improve performance..

its supposed to make a ram upgrade easier and cheaper when ran costs were higher.. but the thinking is behind the times now ram is cheaper..

trog
1. Buying a machine w/ 1 stick and then adding a 2nd can only be described as a "mistake". You have no guarantee that they will work and the manufacturer has no legal requirement to reimburse you if they don't (some will for customer relations purposes). Only pairs of RAM are factory tested and shipped in the same package are guaranteed.

2. If you want a laptop with dual sticks, order one that way. There is an advantage to dual channel. While naive users might assume associating the words dual channel and double data rate with RAM = twice or double (as marketing departments no doubt intended), I have never seen tests / claims of more than 5% ... I'll take it. As far as most people not knowing that... I would say that while the soccer Mom buying lil Johnny a PC for $399 at Walmart for his graduation doesn't know that, I would say that telling those who frequent this forum is "preaching to the choir".

The laptop models below are more limited in options than most Clevo models ... the 1st one comes with 2 x 8 GB and no options.


More often you will have options ... going from a single stick to twin sticks will cost ya about $10:


16GB DDR4 2666MHz (1 x 16GB)
16GB Dual Channel DDR4 2666MHz (2x 8GB) +$10.00
32GB Dual Channel DDR4 2666MHz Memory (2 x 16GB) +$120.00
64GB Dual Channel DDR4 SDRAM at 2666MHz - 2 X 32GB +$400
 
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Why is this such a hot item? Nothing is new here and for the vast majority and casual use single channel is quite fine.

The price of RAM actually doesnt play a huge role in this: for most its simply too much hassle and for those who value the added performance, they know how to get it... right?

Also, timing..
who said it was a hot item.. i just thought it was an item of interest.. dual channel has been the "norm" for me for as long as i can remember.. high end gaming laptops being shipped with just a single stick struck me as interesting.. it also seem the dual channel option isnt offered in many cases.. in fact its not that easy to find out what you are getting..

also in a forum where folks go to extremes just to get the odd extra frame per second i find the lack of interest a bit strange.. but there aint note as strange as folk.. he he

it was a dell G5 and G7 i was looking into.. the 2018 and 2019 models come shipped with just a single stick.. 8 or 16.. knowing what i know now.. the best option would be to buy 8 and add another 8.. that would save money and give dual channel ram..

i actually just bought a used dell G5.. it has 2 x 8 but it didnt come that way.. the previous owner added the second 8.. he also added a 120 hrz ips screen..

I also bought a refurb alienware 17 R5 but sent that back because i didnt like it much..

trog
 
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who said it was a hot item.. i just thought it was an item of interest..

also in a forum where folks go to extremes just to get the odd extra frame per second i find the lack of interest a bit strange.. but there aint note as strange as folk.. he he
Hot item might be coincidental and just my view on it. Check out that link I posted, the article is from today as well... Its like this is a topic of the day or something :)

As for going to extremes, you're right. But I reckon those who go to extremes know all about this; it's not new that manufacturers do this. And those who don't go to extremes... don't need it. You're right its interesting to find them in high end laptops as well as single channel; but is it really a secret that you get ripped off in that segment?

This RAM business is one of the reasons I prefer a barebone with my own setup inside. Bought a BTO (Clevo barebone) laptop some years back and it still goes strong, plus you don't pay for any marketing BS, just the parts you pick + chassis. All my other experiences with laptops with half-decent GPUs inside were horrible - throttling, molten AC power jack, too loud under load, and performance overall is abysmal for the price...
 
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Hot item might be coincidental and just my view on it. Check out that link I posted, the article is from today as well... Its like this is a topic of the day or something :)

As for going to extremes, you're right. But I reckon those who go to extremes know all about this; it's not new that manufacturers do this. And those who don't go to extremes... don't need it. You're right its interesting to find them in high end laptops as well as single channel; but is it really a secret that you get ripped off in that segment?

This RAM business is one of the reasons I prefer a barebone with my own setup inside. Bought a BTO (Clevo barebone) laptop some years back and it still goes strong, plus you don't pay for any marketing BS, just the parts you pick + chassis. All my other experiences with laptops with half-decent GPUs inside were horrible - throttling, molten AC power jack, too loud under load, and performance overall is abysmal for the price...
its connected with the high price of ram.. or it was.. the idea was to make an upgrade cheaper.. just add another stick as opposed to having to replace both original sticks..

now ram is cheaper it only has a negative side.. single channel ram.. folks who buy 16 aint gonna want 32 so will be left with lesser performing single channel... most wont even know..

i only know because of my recent laptop buying spree.. i am just passing on what i recently found out..

trog
 
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In a laptop the bottleneck will not be a single stick of 16GB/8GB RAM (unless your exceeding RAM usage which is not what the topic is about) it will likely be the weak low clocked CPU that can't boost to it's supposed high boost state for more than a second at a time before throttling back down again due to power, the cooling solution... usually inadequate and contribute to the previous point and then there's the GPU, it will either be too weak being a mobile variant or again the cooling isn't adequate to enable it to hit and sustain peak performance. Of course that's assuming there's an SSD in said laptop as most 2.5" HDD's unless you go for higher end are pretty poor so HDD is more of an afterthought IMO though I would be looking at the things I mntioned before worrying about running dual or single channel RAM imo anyway, not fact.
 
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In a laptop the bottleneck will not be a single stick of 16GB/8GB RAM (unless your exceeding RAM usage which is not what the topic is about) it will likely be the weak low clocked CPU that can't boost to it's supposed high boost state for more than a second at a time before throttling back down again due to power, the cooling solution... usually inadequate and contribute to the previous point and then there's the GPU, it will either be too weak being a mobile variant or again the cooling isn't adequate to enable it to hit and sustain peak performance. Of course that's assuming there's an SSD in said laptop as most 2.5" HDD's unless you go for higher end are pretty poor so HDD is more of an afterthought IMO though I would be looking at the things I mntioned before worrying about running dual or single channel RAM imo anyway, not fact.
try watching the posted videos.. then try again.. he he

identical gaming laptops one with single channel memory and one with dual channels memory.. one performs better than the other.. fact.. nuff said..

another one here..


trog
 
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try watching the posted videos.. then try again.. he he

identical gaming laptops one with single channel memory and one with dual channels memory.. one performs better than the other.. fact.. nuff said..

trog
I'm not disputing that fact hehe
I'm saying you need to be worried about more things than single channel RAM in a laptop hehe
There are benefits of dual channel RAM Vs single and it can represent a good improvement especially in a gaming scenario, but the fact is, if you have a single channel RAM laptop then it is not a gaming laptop and that will be the least of your worries before you overcome the other issues related to gaming on a laptop hehe
So no, not "nuff said" I didn't say there wasn't improvements to be made, just you need to take into consideration the whole laptop platform as a whole before focusing on single/dual channel RAM hehe :rolleyes:
 
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I have a quad memory board with 8 slots total 64GB can I put dual channel ram into it with 8 sticks 64GB total?
 

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even the ones that do have dual slots now come with only one slot filled.. my point should be obvious.. do most people know this.. no they dont.. now a few more might..

trog
Ok, here is the thing, for 90% of people the difference will go unnoticed. Yes, dual-channel does improve performance. In some cases it improves it greatly, gaming on low for instance. But people don't play games on low, and even less people play games at all.

Dual-channel used to make a much bigger difference with slower RAM, like the DDR and DDR2 days. It was an "easy" way to double the bandwidth of RAM. But look at the bandwidth modern DDR4 provides compared to DDR/DDR2. A DDR2-800 stick provides 3.2GB/s of bandwidth in single channel. A DDR4-2400 stick in single channel gives 9.6GB/s, not just double the bandwidth but actually triple.

This is why dual-channel has become unnecessary for most modern computers. And the reality is it is cheaper to put in 1x8GB than 2x4GB. It is cheaper to manufacture one stick vs two, there are less raw resources need for a single stick.

But, at the end of the day, is it a big deal that manufacturers are only putting in one stick even when there are two or more memory slots available? Not one bit, you're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. And, in fact, most people would benefit far more from the manufacturer putting in an SSD instead of the slow hard drives they still like to use than they would by dual-channel RAM.
 
Joined
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System Name money pit..
Processor Intel 8700K at 4900 mhz.. 1.24 volt core
Motherboard Asus rog Strix Z370-F Gaming
Cooling Dark Rock TF air cooler.. Stock vga air coolers with case side fans to help cooling..
Memory 32 gb corsair vengeance 3200
Video Card(s) Palit Gaming Pro OC 2080TI
Storage 128 Transend boot drive.. 1T Sandisk.. 1T Transend.. 1T 970 evo nvme m 2..
Display(s) 27" Asus PG279Q ROG Swift 165Hrz Nvidia G-Sync, IPS.. 2560x1440..
Case Gigabyte mid-tower.. cheap and nothing special..
Audio Device(s) onboard sounds with stereo amp..
Power Supply EVGA 850 watt..
Mouse Logitech G700s
Keyboard Logitech K270
Software Win 10 pro..
Benchmark Scores Firestike 29500.. timepsy 14000..
i am simply passing on information that i am sure most people are not aware of..

i am not trying to make a big deal of anything..

all the negative (pretty normal for tpu) comment causes me to post too many replies.. a mistake on my part but that is part of my character..

to me dual channel is a must in any kind of performance machine.. i would not configure a machine with single channel.. i am a bit surprised that some manufactures have chosen to go this way..

i am also about to swap the snail paced 1TB spinning disk in my recently acquired Dell G5 for a nice 1TB ssd.. another outdated contraption that has no place in a modern gaming laptop..

trog
 
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Apr 12, 2013
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RAM prices are not expected to go down any time soon, and in fact, are likely to climb.
No that's probably true only for the US & that too short to medium term? Elsewhere, they have slid quite a bit & will continue to do so till the end of this year. To compensate for a potential loss of sales in the US, other markets might see an even steeper decline in price.

to me dual channel is a must in any kind of performance machine.. i would not configure a machine with single channel.. i am a bit surprised that some manufactures have chosen to go this way..
Considering a lot of laptops have soldered RAM these days, in fact I'm slightly for it. So long as there is an additional slot & preferably clear information about the laptop being single or dual channel.
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
6,934 (1.41/day)
System Name money pit..
Processor Intel 8700K at 4900 mhz.. 1.24 volt core
Motherboard Asus rog Strix Z370-F Gaming
Cooling Dark Rock TF air cooler.. Stock vga air coolers with case side fans to help cooling..
Memory 32 gb corsair vengeance 3200
Video Card(s) Palit Gaming Pro OC 2080TI
Storage 128 Transend boot drive.. 1T Sandisk.. 1T Transend.. 1T 970 evo nvme m 2..
Display(s) 27" Asus PG279Q ROG Swift 165Hrz Nvidia G-Sync, IPS.. 2560x1440..
Case Gigabyte mid-tower.. cheap and nothing special..
Audio Device(s) onboard sounds with stereo amp..
Power Supply EVGA 850 watt..
Mouse Logitech G700s
Keyboard Logitech K270
Software Win 10 pro..
Benchmark Scores Firestike 29500.. timepsy 14000..
for what it worth i am also against the who can make the thinner laptop race.. thin for the sake of being thin is f-cking stuped.. :)

i have also just acquired a refurb dell precision 6800 now that is an impressive machine.. i didnt buy it to play games on but the quadro card is just close enough to make me want to play games on a laptop.. sometimes.. he he

i bought the refurb 6800 because of its dell ultra sharp ips screen for viewing pre-recorded video while away in my trailer/caravan.. it seemed a cheap way of getting a very good wide viewing angle screen.. i might sell it and settle for the 15 inch G5 but then again i might keep both of them.. :)

the 17 inch 6800 screen is just a little too good..

trog
 
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Long Island
In a laptop the bottleneck will not be a single stick of 16GB/8GB RAM (unless your exceeding RAM usage which is not what the topic is about) it will likely be the weak low clocked CPU that can't boost to it's supposed high boost state for more than a second at a time before throttling back down again due to power, the cooling solution... usually inadequate and contribute to the previous point and then there's the GPU, it will either be too weak being a mobile variant or again the cooling isn't adequate to enable it to hit and sustain peak performance. Of course that's assuming there's an SSD in said laptop as most 2.5" HDD's unless you go for higher end are pretty poor so HDD is more of an afterthought IMO though I would be looking at the things I mntioned before worrying about running dual or single channel RAM imo anyway, not fact.
If ya buying ya laptop at BestBuy on sale for $5990, this will likely be the case. But like the desktop, building what you need is going to best serve your needs. You could opt for a mail order gaming laptop and pay a price premium ... or you can just have the laptop custom build you your specifications for less money.

Pick your screen, pick your CPU, pick your GPU, pick your RAM ... pick desktop components if ya like:


9th Gen Intel® Core™ i5-9600K Processor (3.70GHz Base / 4.60GHz Max), 6 Core, 9MB Smart Cache
9th Generation Intel® Core™ i7-9700K Processor (12M Cache, up to 4.90 GHz) +$150.00
9th Generation Intel® Core™ i9-9900K Processor (16M Cache, up to 5.00 GHz) +$250.00

17.3" Full HD 1444 Hz Wide View Angle 72% NTSC Matte with G-Sync Technology
17.3"4k QFHD (3840x2860) 99.5% of Adobe RGB color Matte with G-Sync Technology +$250.00

Include Screen Calibration
No dead Pixel Warranty

NVIDIA® GeForce™ RTX™ 2060 GPU with 6GB GDDR6
NVIDIA® GeForce™ RTX™ 2070 GPU with 8GB GDDR6 +$250.00
NVIDIA® GeForce™ RTX™ 2080 GPU with 8GB GDDR6 +$700.00

8GB DDR4 2400 MHZ (PC4 19200) (1 x 8GB) -$40.00
16GB DDR4 2400 MHZ (PC4 19200) (1 x 16GB)
16GB Dual Channel DDR4 2400MHz (PC4 19200) (2x 8GB) +$10.00
16GB DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3000 (PC4 24000) - 1 X 16GB +$50.00
32GB Dual Channel DDR4 2400 MHZ (PC4 19200) (2 x 16GB) +$125.00
32GB Dual Channel DDR4DDR4 3000 (PC4 24000) - 2 X 16GB +$225.00
64GB Dual Channel DDR4 2400 MHZ (PC4 19200) (4 x 16GB) +$375.00
64GB Dual Channel DDR4 3000 MHZ(PC4 24000) - 4 X 16GB +$675.00

Any Windows OS or No OS

TIM Options , Thermal grizzly, IC Diamond on CPU / GPU

RAID Options

1st Slot M.2 Options
WD® Blue™ M.2 250GB SSD SATA 6Gb/s (OS DRIVE)
WD® Blue™ M.2 500GB SSD SATA 6Gb/s+$50.00
Samsung® 860 EVO™ M.2 250GB SSD - (OS DRIVE)+$25.00
Samsung® 860 EVO™ M.2 500GB SSD - (OS DRIVE)+$75.00
250GB SAMSUNG® 970 EVO™ M.2 PCIe NVMe V-NAND SSD (OS DRIVE)+$55.00
WD® Blue™ M.2 1TB SSD SATA 6Gb/s (OS DRIVE)+$120.00
WD® Blue™ M.2 2TB SSD SATA 6Gb/s (OS DRIVE)+$360.00
Samsung® 860 EVO™ M.2 1TB SSD - (OS DRIVE)+$155.00
Samsung® 860 EVO™ M.2 2TB SSD - (OS DRIVE)+$405.00
WD® Black™ 250GB Performance M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD (OS DRIVE)+$40.00
WD® Black™ 500GB Performance M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD (OS DRIVE)+$100.00
WD® Black™ 1TB Performance M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD (OS DRIVE)+$240.00
500GB SAMSUNG® 970 EVO™ M.2 PCIe NVMe V-NAND SSD (OS DRIVE)+$115.00
1TB SAMSUNG® 970 EVO™ M.2 PCIe NVMe V-NAND SSD (OS DRIVE)+$270.00
2TB SAMSUNG® 970 EVO™ M.2 PCIe NVMe V-NAND SSD (OS DRIVE)+$570.00
512GB SAMSUNG® 970 PRO™ M.2 PCIe NVMe V-NAND SSD (OS DRIVE)+$160.00
1TB SAMSUNG® 970 PRO™ M.2 PCIe NVMe V-NAND SSD (OS DRIVE)+$385.00

2nd Slot M.2 Option (pretty much same as above)

Primary HD Options

1 TB 7200 RPM SATA 6Gb/s Hard Drive
None - No Primary Hard Drive/SSD (NOTE: Only available if M.2 SSD Selected)-$50.00
Seagate® FireCuda™ Gaming SSHD 1TB SATA 6.0Gb/s+$15.00
Seagate® FireCuda™ Gaming SSHD 2TB SATA 6.0Gb/s+$60.00
250GB Samsung® 860 EVO Series SATA 6Gbps SSD+$15.00
500GB Samsung® 860 EVO Series SATA 6Gbps SSD+$55.00
SAMSUNG® 860 EVO™ 1TB SATA III 3-D Vertical SSD+$155.00
SAMSUNG® 860 PRO™ 1TB SATA III 3-D Vertical SSD+$320.00
SAMSUNG® 860 EVO™ 2TB SATA III 3-D Vertical SSD+$360.00
SAMSUNG® 860 PRO™ 2TB SATA III 3-D Vertical SSD+$555.00
SAMSUNG® 860 EVO™ 4TB SATA III 3-D Vertical SSD+$800.00
SAMSUNG® 860 PRO™ 4TB SATA III 3-D Vertical SSD+$1115.00

2nd HD Option (pretty much same as above)

Wireless / Blue tooth options

Warranty Options

With the mobile PUs / GPus, most Clevo distributors preconfigure CPU / GPU / Sceen "base builds" (i7-9750H / i7-8750H .... 1660 thru 2080 ) and you add the options from there. But what is important today is that CPU and GPU performance differs little from their non mobile counterparts.

3D mark IceStorm Benchmark scores

2080 Desktop 43,6117 / 2080 Mobile 43,9340
2070 Desktop 42,4385 / 2070 Mobile 46,3865
2060 Desktop 42,4149 / 2060 Mobile 39,1093

3D mark CPU Scores

8700k 11,701 / 8750H 10,295
9600k 10,974 / 9750 H 10,642

Yes, agree that the typical buyer who picks out a PC in Best Buy doesn't know this kinda stuff. But I'd be surpised if 1 in 20 of TPUs reguars do not. One thing i do not understand why most techies will build their own custom desktop, why that don't entertain buying custom made laptops when one is needed. For me a lappie is a necessity for jobsite and on the road work ... most don't have this requirement. But after working hours, (live in a 200 year old dairy barn w/ office in the hayloft) I will often sit at my desk and fire up a game for a while ... but after dinner or after I get buttsore from sitting in the office chair all day, going downstairs and streaming a movie or continuing the game in a Lazy-Boy is a better option ... and I lose very little on the change.

It's not like it costs more to do so. The Clevo distributors are not permitted to **advertise** pricing below a set bottom price, they will negotiate with you ... and those discounts can be substantial.

And yes, I can overclock and run Furmark / RoG Real Bench w/o issue.
 
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