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OFFICIAL Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim (Discussion)

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I must have been out of the loop but I have not heard of CPU rendered shadows and the detrimental affects along with ugliness it has in ages.

Probably due to Skyrim using Gamebryo engine again which was release a long time ago when I would hear more about CPU rendered shadows causing significant performance issues.
 

crazyeyesreaper

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again

Morrowind = Net Immerse released 2002-2003 using Direct X 8.1

Net Immerse is bought out and renamed gamebryo gets Direct X 9.0 overall

Oblivion = Gamebyro released 2006 Direct X 9 but sticks to mostly Shader Model 2.0 which runs worse then Shader 3.0 on same hardware,

Fallout 3 = Gamebryo again released 2008 using Direct X9.0c some more shader 3.0 effects are used but still mostly Shader 2.0 Based

Fallout New Vegas = Gamebryo again same as above cut and dry no changes,

Skyrim = Gamebryo tweaked to allow a few shader changes on there old code, more Shader Model 3.0 Oriented, shadowing is tweaked but heres the kicker

across all the above games, shadows are cpu based, but what youll notice is shadowing they added in oblivion was removed in fallout 3 and New Vegas to an extent, because it self shadowing for instance never really functioned properly in Oblivion, after having fixed the rendering and improving it youll notice self shadowing made a come back but mostly youll notice that

Self Shadowing
Shadows on Trees
Shadows on Land

are usually disabled by default why? because it hits the cpu like a shit ton of bricks, there are some gpu aspects to shadows, but most of Skyrims shadows look like there straight out of 2000-2003 games,

even old school Rome Total War released in 2003 with 10k soldiers on screen offered better shadowing then skyrim in some regards. as well as many other games,

Gamebryo engine used by Skyrim and all of bethesda's titles dosent even properly support smooth shadows in general without filters and extras, unlike 90% of the rest of the market which does,

Gamebryo is also limited by shadow resolution over an area

example say you have 4096 shadow maps and shadow distance 8000 well as we all know setting shadow distance to 4000 improves clarity of shadows, this is because the game essentially just applies shadows like a giant texture map, 4096 shadow map gets scaled across distance, thus looks like shit, think of it as blowing up a 512x512 texture map to 2048x2048 youll notice it gets blurry edges get pixelated well same idea. In general Bethesda kinda just halfassed shadowing, in general hell Skyrim dosent even support Ambient Occlusion properly which almost all games use now to improve shadows, you have to force it via Nvidia drivers, AMD users cant even access that lol. The game engines age is apparent most of its source code is from a time when DX 8.1 was relevent. Direct X 8.1 was relevent from 2001-2003 for the most part where it was replaced in earnest by Direct X 9 game was already well into development obviously so changes were impossible but you can see how this is going when Direct X 9.0c hit well it hit stride fast, was pretty much cut copy paste from console to PC simplifying the process. This ment Bethesda just let the game engine sit with no real reason to improve anything, after all the cash cow aka consoles didnt need any improvements. ;)

Thus why we see such old methods of game design still readily visible in bethesda's games.
 

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As long as they dont place the same file. If they do, whichever one you placed last will over right the other. They will still work fine together.



I could be completely wrong in your case, but I haven't heard of any other person out there playing at 1080p crashing on default settings, hell I was running 10k distances shadows with some 8192 res for them without LAA + some texture packs and I was completely fine, till I entered a city.

i get the crashes on default settings with no mods. mods just make it crash faster.


the further into the game you get, the more often it crashes.
 
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with 3000 cheese wheels bouncing down a mountain ( had to copy the videos on youtube lol) game doesn't go below 30 fps. ( 20 thousand + cheeses rolling down a mountain would be epic)
Perfect for the Avalanche Mod :), imagine running down a slope trying to avoid those damn snow that is about to plough your face XD

Also anyone tried the SMAA? (modification of FXAA, functions like MLAA i think)

Strange, i my case, removing the 4GB patch and updating it to 1.1 removes most of my crash related problems (and i have several mods installed including terrain and water textures), mostly the fast travel crash is resolved.

Shadows are also not updated in realtime afaik, in Oblivion you can stare at the tree shadow and you will notice that it slightly moves over time depending on the sun's position, seems to be static in Skyrim and updates abruptly
 
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i dont know why they decided to screw around with the new engine... I thought they did good with new vegas, they should have kept it at that.

Until the new consoles come out any hardware updates are pointless anyways... the only thing modern hardware seems to do is overcome crappy code.
 
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again

Morrowind = Net Immerse released 2002-2003 using Direct X 8.1

Net Immerse is bought out and renamed gamebryo gets Direct X 9.0 overall

Oblivion = Gamebyro released 2006 Direct X 9 but sticks to mostly Shader Model 2.0 which runs worse then Shader 3.0 on same hardware,

Fallout 3 = Gamebryo again released 2008 using Direct X9.0c some more shader 3.0 effects are used but still mostly Shader 2.0 Based

Fallout New Vegas = Gamebryo again same as above cut and dry no changes,

Skyrim = Gamebryo tweaked to allow a few shader changes on there old code, more Shader Model 3.0 Oriented, shadowing is tweaked but heres the kicker

across all the above games, shadows are cpu based, but what youll notice is shadowing they added in oblivion was removed in fallout 3 and New Vegas to an extent, because it self shadowing for instance never really functioned properly in Oblivion, after having fixed the rendering and improving it youll notice self shadowing made a come back but mostly youll notice that

Self Shadowing
Shadows on Trees
Shadows on Land

are usually disabled by default why? because it hits the cpu like a shit ton of bricks, there are some gpu aspects to shadows, but most of Skyrims shadows look like there straight out of 2000-2003 games,

even old school Rome Total War released in 2003 with 10k soldiers on screen offered better shadowing then skyrim in some regards. as well as many other games,

Gamebryo engine used by Skyrim and all of bethesda's titles dosent even properly support smooth shadows in general without filters and extras, unlike 90% of the rest of the market which does,

Gamebryo is also limited by shadow resolution over an area

example say you have 4096 shadow maps and shadow distance 8000 well as we all know setting shadow distance to 4000 improves clarity of shadows, this is because the game essentially just applies shadows like a giant texture map, 4096 shadow map gets scaled across distance, thus looks like shit, think of it as blowing up a 512x512 texture map to 2048x2048 youll notice it gets blurry edges get pixelated well same idea. In general Bethesda kinda just halfassed shadowing, in general hell Skyrim dosent even support Ambient Occlusion properly which almost all games use now to improve shadows, you have to force it via Nvidia drivers, AMD users cant even access that lol. The game engines age is apparent most of its source code is from a time when DX 8.1 was relevent. Direct X 8.1 was relevent from 2001-2003 for the most part where it was replaced in earnest by Direct X 9 game was already well into development obviously so changes were impossible but you can see how this is going when Direct X 9.0c hit well it hit stride fast, was pretty much cut copy paste from console to PC simplifying the process. This ment Bethesda just let the game engine sit with no real reason to improve anything, after all the cash cow aka consoles didnt need any improvements. ;)

Thus why we see such old methods of game design still readily visible in bethesda's games.

So what you're saying is..Skyrim is the Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 of Role-Playing Games? No real engine changes, just improved gameplay. (Well, CoD doesnt have improved gameplay, so I guess Bethesday has that going for them)
 

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pretty much yes,

you have to remember Skyrim with default high settings can still be run on ancient gpus like the 8800GTX lol its just shadowing thats really kinda kicked cpus in the balls,

but yea, pretty much the same as call of duty just gameplay improves over time. oh and theres mods.... and a construction kit to convert the game however you want, those are bonuses, but they still fail because while Call Of Duty is the King of recycle at least there game engine is still highly optimized and even thought its based on the 1999 Quake 3 engine at LEAST shadows arent run on the CPU lmao :roll:
 
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So what is the max supported ishadowmap and why does it never make a dif. in before and after pics?
 

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up to 4096 up to 8192 up to 16384

4096 up to 8192 fairly big difference in most shadows but with high shadow distance self shadows still look like shit

8192 pushed to 16384 bigger difference on self shadows but has a pretty big cpu hit does allow for 8000 shadow distance to not suck tho. if Shadows werent CPU driven this setting would be what I would recommend

so essentially

4096 = minimum

8192 = best trade off performance / improvement

16384 = good improvement heavy cpu toll, loading takes a good while. i do believe it can be pushed even higher but performance will suffer so bad and load times will be so terrible it wont matter.

Drag the Slider back and forth, 16384 further improves shadowing, but its still not the same as just plain softshadows run off the GPU which just works far better, but pay close attention on the armor shadow on the wall and the shadowing on the roots in the center, youll notice still blocky even at 8192 16384 removes most of that blockiness but i couldnt really get the game playable, at those settings,

http://international.download.nvidi...eak-Guide-ShadowmapResolution-Comparison.html
 
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up to 4096 up to 8192 up to 16384

4096 up to 8192 fairly big difference in most shadows but with high shadow distance self shadows still look like shit

8192 pushed to 16384 bigger difference on self shadows but has a pretty big cpu hit does allow for 8000 shadow distance to not suck tho. if Shadows werent CPU driven this setting would be what I would recommend

so essentially

4096 = minium

8192 = best trade off performance / improvement

16384 = good improvement heavy cpu toll, loading takes a good while. i do believe it can be pushed even higher but performance will suffer so bad and load times will be so terrible it wont matter.

Well this would explain why when I was testing shadow sizes on the phenom 720 that bombed down to 1-2 fps :laugh:

Thought I had run out of v-memory but did think it was odd as I run super high res shadows on games like stalker.


*edit* Regarding that preview, needs shadowblur D: hate seeing pixel edges in my shadows.
 

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shadowblur helps but dosent fix dynamic shadows like those cast by torches etc nor will it fix the jaggies on the roots etc, it also dosent fully remove blockiness, because shadowblur is just essentially a MLAA / FXAA type blur filter on shadow edges

think gaussian blur in photoshop, it dosent do a whole lot in skyrim tho its helpful but dosent fix it, and again it cant fix the ugly ass self shadows, again mostly because Bethesda dosent utilize softshadows like everyone else lol. hell if they used soft shadows and on gpu, there would be no issues, and if the game was running newer gamebryo you would have better multi threading performance and DX11 multi threaded rendering, lol so many of the issues with this game engine HAVE BEEN FIXED, bethesda is just really lax about paying for the updated engine.
 
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ishadowmap only effected my frame rate on the 470 indoors, when it was too far out of vram it dived to 6 FPS. Take out the memory limit and no setting hurts my frame rate, but it doesn't look different either, from 4096 to 131072 it looked the same.
 

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makesure to check the skyrim.ini and preferences ini, with the 1.2 patch they moved some settings to various locations,
 
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It was always like that. No visible difference, but indoor performance hit at 8096 and up. Outdoors I could set it at 16k on the 470.
 
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;)
 

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Strange, i my case, removing the 4GB patch and updating it to 1.1 removes most of my crash related problems (and i have several mods installed including terrain and water textures), mostly the fast travel crash is resolved.

1.1 and LAA is the way to go if you are running an AMD setup.

So what you're saying is..Skyrim is the Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 of Role-Playing Games? No real engine changes, just improved gameplay. (Well, CoD doesnt have improved gameplay, so I guess Bethesday has that going for them)

Call of Duty is known for no engine upgrades and no gameplay upgrades, just map upgrades. So no Skyrim isn't that, I hated Oblivion, loving the world and better gameplay in this game, just the engine is dated. But you pointed out the gameplay part in the end, which is a massive thing to consider, so they are vastly different.
 
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1.1 and LAA is the way to go if you are running an AMD setup.
So i guess my i3 2100 is exempted? Its more stable now tbh.
 
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Thx Crazyeyes, I really enjoyed reading about this...

I must say it feels REALLY akward... I don't know if I'm the only to feel like this, but hey, I'm gonna try my luck and see it there are other human beings out here who think Skyrim is Beautifully "bittersweet" ...

Doesn't it feel akward, when you stop to consider that game? Comparing it with Oblivion, there are so many improvments... When you first discover the graphics and the artwork in Skyrim, you've got to admit there's been some real nice work done there... And when you consider the richness and the amount of content in-game and the crazy potential for modding, you've got to be thinking "Man this game feels like it's got some serious potential"...

And then, when you stop to consider how all that Great stuff has been mixed with (let's call it like it is) Crap... it just feels akward...

This game made me feel like there's finally a game that has been released that feels like the games that got me into gaming when I was a teenager (a bit like Baldur's gate 1 and 2...)

And I find it weird, that here in 2011 that game doesn't support that much GPU rendering or dx11 features... I know these things take time for game studios... but to me, it just feels wrong to put THAT much effort into art design, game content, voice acting (and much more) without optimizing the game which truly, (for PC gamers at least) is the "cherry on the sunday"...

Being able to play The Witcher 2 with it's stunning graphics and "eye-candy" at 60 frames per second all the time, using Crossfire has been a very satisfying experience... I just hope that I can (and that we can) do the same with this game at some point in time...

Do you guys believe a mod could possibly fix this "CPU bottleneck" issue ???
 

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1.1 and LAA is the way to go if you are running an AMD setup.


.....

is there any one of the 11.11x updates that will run better with this combo for Crossfire?
 
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is there any one of the 11.11x updates that will run better with this combo for Crossfire?

Crossfire enabled or not you won't see much of a difference in frames as you already have a really good single card. You should already be limited to the performance that the game is able to optimize so until Bethesda decides to release a performance patch I recommend forgetting about crossfire for now since you are running the game with a 6950.
 
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Do you guys believe a mod could possibly fix this "CPU bottleneck" issue ???
It could involved more than just the Creation Kit's capability, more like modfying on how the game engine works, maybe even deeper on what the Script extender could do (Oblivion/Fallout script extender).

Going back to actual gameplay...

anyone found the corpse of a giant mudcrab? perhaps quest related or kinda like dlc? i remember sumthin similar in fallout 3 hehe
 

crazyeyesreaper

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its possible for skyrim to be fixed by modders,

but look how long it took for morrowind to get dynamic shadows

game released 2003 didnt get stable dynamic shadows till 2010 / 2011 took modders 7-8 years to reverse engineer write the code test it and get it stable,

Oblivion got a Graphics extender same as morrowind,

in fact Oblivion with Graphics extender looks pretty much just as good or better then default skyrim, only thing that sucks in Oblivion is the body and head models are still terrible,

Oblivion Graphics Extender Screenshots

so as you can see with mods and a graphics extender that only took 4-5 years for modders to code, Oblivion gets overhauled to look as good as skyrim and supports SSAO / tone mapping etc, as well and at this point SSAO support is better in Oblivion with mods then it is in Skyrim with mods, then again patch stability etc helps alot. but eitherway it kinda proves the point Skyrim really isnt THAT special its the same just better character meshes / heads, and better gameplay, otherwise nothings really changed.






ssao off vs on
 
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Good times with OGE hehe, it even has godrays in it, its the only OGE i installed if i rmemeber correctly, since AO can already be enabled on nvidia's display panel.
 

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yes but AMD users cant get AO on any of these games, only with Graphics Extenders can AMD gpus get AO to work, ;) keep that it mind
 
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