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Evolution in Texas Classrooms

Discussion in 'General Nonsense' started by magibeg, Jan 22, 2009.

  1. magibeg

    magibeg

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  2. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    So long as there is fundies, there shall be attempts to inject faith into public schools. It's their way of procreating.
     
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  3. newconroer

    newconroer

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    There's a very valid absolute that people overlook when debating this issue.

    Non-creationists like to use the excuse that Intelligent Design somehow infringes upon their rights.

    The first ammendment states "Freedom OF religion" NOT "Freedom FROM religion."

    Too often that is mis-construed and it spirals out of control.

    Despite the fact that the excuse against evolution of "It's just a theory" is a bit passe and redundant these days, it's still one hundred percent valid. Just because it seems the most logical, does not make it right, nor gives it sufficient grounds to be forced upon children or society as a whole.

    The first step is get rid of the board of education, and let all educational matters be handled at a state level. The second step, is to teach both the THEORY of macro-evolution, and Intelligent Design, along side one another, but not in efforts to allow students to 'debate' it IN the class-room, rather in hopes they debate it in their own free time. The third step is to make sure children are not learning either of the above mentioned sides of the topic until a certain age, say thirteen, maybe even sixteen, when they are more mature, and able to have a better grasp on it.

    One of the problems with macro-evolution(dis-regarding it's utter lack of concrete evidence), is that it's origin stops at some approximate point in time after the creation of the Earth, whether that be the Big Bang, M-Theory or Intelligent Design. Where as Creationism, can tie directly into Intelligent Design if one wishes, but the two can be considered mutually exclusive for some people. I.e. Non Christians might reject the Christian God, but still believe in a creationism.

    Since the late 70s, when the first theorum on general relativity was released, there have been more and more theorums to follow, and scientists begin to understand that there is a causal agent that can exist outside of our space time. Whether this entity is the Christian God, is going to be a lot more difficult to determine, probably impossible. But the evidence helps to simply laugh in the face of the Big Bang, and it also starts to push M-theory/Superstring back into the closet where it belongs.

    It's hard to tell kids 'ya you came from apes' and the kid goes 'well where did the apes come from?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
  4. HolyCow02

    HolyCow02 New Member

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    Might as well let them debate it in the classroom. It's a controlled environment. You start letting this stuff be done outside of a controlled environment... and there will be havoc.
     
  5. Thermopylae_480

    Thermopylae_480

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    You can take philosophy and social sceince classes that discuss religion, let biology have its evolution. Your parents and preist/minister/ect. are perfectly capable of educating you in the appropriate religious manner; often those people have no idea, or gross misconceptions, about evolutionary theory.
     
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  6. Thermopylae_480

    Thermopylae_480

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    Evolution doesn't need to be the poster child for what is wrong with our education system, there are much more dire failings.
     
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  7. HolyCow02

    HolyCow02 New Member

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    yea like kids learning how to talk... and by talk I mean TO people, face to face, and writing papers with proper words, not AIM speak.
     
  8. magibeg

    magibeg

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    The theory of evolution is actually just a description of the facts of speciation. Intelligent Design actually has no evidence for it and thus it isn't a science. You could teach it in another class but not a science class. The problem with not teaching them until they're older is that evolutionary theory is the cornerstone of biology.

    I'm not sure what you mean by stops and some approximate time or lack of concrete evidence (there is a massive amount of information, just ask me what you're looking for). Evolutionary theory only deals with the change of living things over time. It has nothing to do with the big bang or m-theory. What people accept or reject has nothing to due with science as science is only concerned with facts, evidence, and testing.

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'casual agent'. I'm also not sure where the big bang theory ties in with evolution either as they are both completely seperated areas of study with nothing in common. Also m-theory and superstring theory are not fully accepted by the scientific community yet.
     
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  9. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    There's one, gapping, enromous, nearly unfathable hole in intelligent-design: it implies there is *something* controlling practically everything. Until that *something* is explicitly defined, it can't be taught as science. There is no way to escape that the *something* is religious in nature. As such, it conflicts with the objectives of public education: get these young minds ready for the business world. What good is this *something* going to do in making a next generation fighter aircraft? What good is it going to do in making neural network processors/aritifical brains? What good is it going to do in terms of creating wealth at all (except for churches that bankroll insecurity)? Intelligent design in schools would be the beginning of the end of all the progress the USA brought to the world over the past century (and beyond).

    If you really want to teach your children intelligent design, by all means do it but not with taxpayer money. Do it on your own time, with your own money, most likely in religious establishments. It is counter-productive in moving this country forward technologically.


    Oh, and need proof that evolution works? Look at a mutated frog.


    It's hardly controlled. Teachers aren't monitored for injecting their own ideas into their teachings. That's really not a problem in the teens but it is a problem in grade school. Children are so impressionable at those ages.


    A great deal of ignorance, I say. You explain to them how it works as simply as possible and they "reject your reality and substitute their own." It's a waste of time to attempt to change their mind (rather, educate them).
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
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  10. Steevo

    Steevo

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    True. Most of the eastern US school cirriculum is based more on social engineering the best mediocre workers that go with the flow than the best and brightest students.


    http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/141666/detail/


    Poor quality, but still happening today.



    Evolution is still in limbo, but has a massive amount of evidence, however I still believe we were put here by a being with a plan. After researcing both sides of the issue, I find no compelling reason to believe we are the children of chance and statistics. Science has not shown where they are doing more thn interpreting the data they are looking for, and ignoring the irrelvant or anything that does't match up with what they want. It might be right, but for now there are still to many unanswered questions, and great marvels to be chance.


    The same goes for the loony people who want to spew their crap religion in a school, it has no place there at all. Get it out of the schools and goverments. Who is to decide what form of religion would be taught at a school? There are too many, and many promote violence and ignorance.
     
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  11. Castiel

    Castiel

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    Its Texas, center of the Bible Belt, what do you think is going to happen. Just hope the Red Necks don't get involved.
     
  12. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    Tru dat. The harder they look, the more convinced they are that they are wrong. They forumulate another theory and repeat the process over and over. This has been going on since Einstein's "theory of everything."


    Rather off-topic though, I agree.
     
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  13. newconroer

    newconroer

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    Yes, you can take those courses, and yes such matters should be left to parents/family; however teaching of Intelligent Design is not necessarily Christian based. People think aliens created us and left us to populate. Technically intelligent design, though, not something I would avocate in that sense.

    Then again, maybe science courses should never touch on the subject, and leave it to a later tier of education, say astronomy and astro-physics; because general relativity isn't something a teenager is going to easily grasp.


    And no, students are there to learn, not debate. If they want to debate they can join a debate team, or goto college and sit around 'expressing' themselves, with the bill going to their parents.

    Causal agent. Do you not know the definition of each word? You should have gotten it from the context alone.
    Big bang theory does NOT tie in with evolution as you say, which is what I said, and is the reason that evolution leaves a gaping hole, as people aren't really content with : "Ok here's a bunch of 'facts' to tell you you come from some blob in a swamp, but where that blob really came from, we can't quite say'

    No, M-theory/superstring/superbrane is not accepted, and ultimatley, if one studies it enough, will eventually conclude that it too revolves around the need for a causal agent.
     
  14. Solaris17

    Solaris17 Creator Solaris Utility DVD

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    Thank you. If students wish to learn about creatonism go to your church or a public library or take a class and learn about it. Their should be absolutely NO reason why they would teach creationism in a public school unless it was a specilized course and certainly not in any type of science class...because as the title suggests the things you should be learning in it should be the polor opposite of any thing found in religion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
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  15. thoughtdisorder

    thoughtdisorder New Member

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    Agreed. Let's not cut the children out of the loop. Children are smart, teach them both and let them make up their own minds. They have the rest of their lives to conform to what society deems acceptable. :pimp:
     
  16. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    Understand the scope of the issue and our very small perspective of it. Evolution has clearly been on-going for at least hundreds of millions of years on Earth yet, we only understand reasonably well a several thousand-year window of the problem. Long-term evolution can only be partially constructed from the few fossil remains we dig up. We need thousands of years of more evidence (or a long term lab experiment that proves the theory in its entirety) to consider the theory as law.

    Put it this way: it's like trying to paint the entire world by looking through a straw. Considering the theory (derived from observations on an island) has stood for this long is phenomenal. Just as how the theory of gravity by Newton was replaced by the more detailed papers of Einstein describing the cause of gravity (warp of the space-time continuum), Darwin's theories of evolution are likely to be replaced by something that explain the mechanics of why evolution happens.


    Belief in aliens has very little distinguishing it from belief in religion. They both revolve around the topic of what religion calls "faith." Faith is like oil while science is like water; they don't mix. What the board is trying to do is use an emulsification process (in this case, loose wording in Texas state law) to make them mix.



    The "Cambrian Explosion" can be explained by favorable atmosphere which accommodates more rapid reproduction. For instance, if you make the climate a little more humid which inevitably causes charge differentials in water particles leading to lightning in addition to making the climate warmer, those specific conditions lead to a boom in reproduction of most species. This fact is still demonstrated today by the day-to-day and seasonal behaviors of a lot of species that are still on land (which are directly effected by climate). Realize that 85% of evolution occurred in the water--most of which we have little fossil record of due to greater sedimentation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
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  17. Steevo

    Steevo

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    Life has still never been created, in perfectly controlled lab conditions. If it were, what would the scientist represent, the creator? Whatever is provided can be spun either way by using the "standard deviation" and if the person performing the experement is also the same who sets the standard deviation, how do we know if the deviation is not a result in itself, just being overlooked and discarded as it doesn't fit in the data set that has been predfined?


    I could for example add vinegar to baking soda, and proclaim that there are millions of little invisable people makign the reaction go, and that standard deviation is what everyone else experiances. I know that is absurd, but the idea remains what is standard deviation. As far as evolution is concerned, cancer is evolution of cells. Why does evolution not also include other deviations of cell and DNA, currently any change is considered "damage". So assuming that every change is damage, evolution would result in damage.

    Then as far as evolution, assumption is made that the DNA has changed to make the different species. What if the DNA was created, and the animals were created with that DNA and the ability to adapt to climate changes. Looking at life, the idea that it improves without interaction is to deny that everything else tends to move to breakdown and chaos. So why are we special? In general our eyesight is getting worse as a species, our lifespan is at the limit of genetics, why do we age, why do we die, DNA doesn't wear out. Why would we evolve special cells to destroy any further "evolution" of DNA and cells?


    Trying to explain the idea of evolution in the face of questions such as these is to deny that evolution is infalliable, and the correct answer, and thus the absolute truth. So accepting that Evolution holds some truths, and correct ideas, ironing out the problems without spin, and standard deviation will result in a better idea.



    Asking questions and fully comprehending not only what, but why makes us different than animals. As well it allows us to make better decisions.


    So how we got here is still unanswered, there are theories, and ideas, some information with spin put on from both sides. But the evidence for me is still pointing to creation, and design. Not chance and statistic.




    So teach, we are here, here are the aspects of the human body, there are many different ideas about the beginning of life, here are the base ideas of each. You may continue reading and researching about it on your own.
     
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  18. JC316

    JC316 Knows what makes you tick

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    Evolution is an interesting theory, but my problem is how they teach it as proven fact, when it's most certainly not. They are quick to bash creationism and intelligent design based on no proof, yet come up with sketchy results that "prove" Darwin.

    I was taught at home using the Abecca course. They taught biology using creationism and guess what? It's the same thing as evolution.

    My view? Teach about the science of the earth and the human body today, not how it was so many years ago. Give both options as to where it all came from, but take both with a grain of salt.
     
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  19. magibeg

    magibeg

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    What is everyones obsession with the creation of life when evolution comes into play. The creation of life is more into abiogenesis not evolution. Evolutionary theory only deals with self replicating organisms. There is no creator in evolution.

    Any change is not considered damage and thats not the primary way that evolution works, especially when it comes to mammels for example. You are a transitional form of your parents as your genetics are slightly different than both your mother and your father. Your DNA is unique and when you 'breed' with another human the child will be a combination of the mothers and fathers dna. Evolution is not always damage otherwise you're a damaged version of your parents.

    There is a number of false arguments in here that need correcting. There is no evidence to point that DNA was just created for each animal as then it wouldn't make sense that multiple different animals would contain similar genetics through common ancestors. I'm not sure where you get the idea from that everything tends to move towards breakdown and choas but thats a completely different area of science there as well. We're not anymore special than other animals. Our eyesight getting worse as a species is actually evolution in process as bad eyesight no longer makes a great difference when there is no predators and corrective lenses available. Our genetic information does infact break down over time as we age but thats a much more complex process than i wish to get into right now. I'm not sure what cells you're talking about that destroy evolution within the dna and cells.

    Actually everything you have stated so far has been thoroughly explained by science and can be solved with a few searches on google. If need be i can show you some videos on youtube that may explain things better.

    It's a good thing we evolved those big brains so we can answer those questions.

    How we got here has nothing to do with evolution for starters as evolution doesn't deal with the creation of life. Thats a different area of study, even so abiogenesis is NOT chance and statistic.

    Evolution once again is not about the beginning of life but describes how it changes once life started. Only in creationism/intelligent design do they merge the 2 together. There are larger questions that need to be asked regarding the number of extinct species when talk comes about intelligent design. Dinosaurs for example provide a massive problem for those theories.
     
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  20. Polaris573

    Polaris573 Senior Moderator

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    Evolution- A change in allele frequency over time.

    Where is the problem?

    You're going to have to back up that statement if you think allele frequencies do not change and that these changes do not accumulate over time. If you have evidence of that then you've made the greatest scientific discovery of the last 200 years.
     
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  21. magibeg

    magibeg

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    What proof would you consider acceptable. Evolution being a theory simply describes certain facts such as speciation. Only intelligent design and creationism have no proof behind them. Furthermore they have mountains of evidence against such processes taking place.

    I'm not sure how creationism and evolution would have anything in common so i have to question what you were being taught. Especially because creationism deals with creation and evolution deals with the change of organisms over time.
     
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  22. RevengE

    RevengE

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    I really don't understand why teching evolution in the classroom is so wrong? You can be tought about God yet no one has ever see him/her/whatever god is. At least with Science you have facts and theorys, Religion is a theory imo. Texas is a hardcore republican state if your A homosexual,or hate guns, or talk bad about George W Bush your the devil, if you think outside the box it's even worse. I have nothing against religion and I hope there is a greater power I really do because if there is not really what's the point in living? On another note I do hate religious extreamists..example if you have sex before marriage you WILL go to hell! Ok? Have you ever seen or been there yourself? No well how do you know that than? This book tells me. My point is people are extreamly narrow minded. Let people believe what they want. I think evolution should be tought in schools it's a way to show kids to THINK!
    Now in days everyone is a zombie controlled by the media.
     
  23. thoughtdisorder

    thoughtdisorder New Member

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    I hear what you're saying, but I would like to present these:

    Fossils

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  24. Steevo

    Steevo

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    Dinosaurs only provide problems to the freaks who think science and creation can't get along, and that the earth is only 6 thousand years old. I am not one. Once you set a planet in motion, giving to the fact that you are all powerfull and what to create something in your sand box, do you prevent nature from taking its course? For me, I didn't, the sun dried out the castle, it fell over. To be had fun with another day. If one day I created a masterpiece of design that was capable of fixing itself, why would I destroy it? What if it rejected me, and asked to be left alone? Allowing this idea, and if I left it alone untill the rude little shits destroyed themselves to the point they couldn't fix it would show I had the right to define good and bad, right and wrong, etc.... woudl answer why they shouldn't reject me. However untill that time comes, allow them their form of fun, evil, destruction, mayhem.

    This is hwat I believe is happening, perhaps we had a creator, we turned on him, and he let us alone to see what we could do. Almost like when a fater lets his son ride a bike, and the son refuses to listen to basic instruction.
     
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  25. DanTheBanjoman SeƱor Moderator

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    I believe this thread will evolve into another flamewar, as all these threads do. Feel free to prove me wrong.
     
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