• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

First Windows 11 Patch Tuesday Makes Ryzen L3 Cache Latency Worse, AMD Puts Out Fix Dates

Ziggy1971

New Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2021
Messages
2 (0.00/day)
Microsoft Windows Operating System is designed and built FOR hardware (motherboards, CPUs, RAM, GPUs, etc.)

Since the OS clearly doesn't work on that hardware I only have a simple question... what the hell is Microsoft trying to create?
The code they are trying to put together seems to have been mislabeled somewhere as it's not even close to what people expect.
Anyone with an IQ that even registers on the scale can tell this isn't working.

Intel sat on their hands for years and did nothing but put out 14nm+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ revisions and even they eventually moved to another node, albeit they didn't like the rules of the naming scheme or couldn't match it, so they change the rules/names.

Maybe, one day, Microsoft will catch on and put out a revision that sort of works, wait, we already have Windows 10. Not awesome but it at least works for the vast majority of people most of the time.

Microsoft Windows 11+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ here we come, er, eventually.

But hey, Intel's Alder Lake seems smooth as butter and puts AMDs offerings to shame. Wait, AMD can't reliably run the same benchmarks on the same OS.
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
2,648 (0.56/day)
Location
Greece
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 5600@80W
Motherboard MSI B550 Tomahawk
Cooling ZALMAN CNPS9X OPTIMA
Memory 2*8GB PATRIOT PVS416G400C9K@3733MT_C16
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 6750 XT Pulse 12GB
Storage Sandisk SSD 128GB, Kingston A2000 NVMe 1TB, Samsung F1 1TB, WD Black 10TB
Display(s) AOC 27G2U/BK IPS 144Hz
Case SHARKOON M25-W 7.1 BLACK
Audio Device(s) Realtek 7.1 onboard
Power Supply Seasonic Core GC 500W
Mouse Sharkoon SHARK Force Black
Keyboard Trust GXT280
Software Win 7 Ultimate 64bit/Win 10 pro 64bit/Manjaro Linux
After that mess, I think that the only way of a fair comparison for the upcoming AL reviews would be to post the AMD CPUs results both on win10 and win11 to compare with AL on win11. That would totally backfire for MS. But that needs some balls to be done...
 

bug

Joined
May 22, 2015
Messages
13,157 (4.07/day)
Processor Intel i5-12600k
Motherboard Asus H670 TUF
Cooling Arctic Freezer 34
Memory 2x16GB DDR4 3600 G.Skill Ripjaws V
Video Card(s) EVGA GTX 1060 SC
Storage 500GB Samsung 970 EVO, 500GB Samsung 850 EVO, 1TB Crucial MX300 and 2TB Crucial MX500
Display(s) Dell U3219Q + HP ZR24w
Case Raijintek Thetis
Audio Device(s) Audioquest Dragonfly Red :D
Power Supply Seasonic 620W M12
Mouse Logitech G502 Proteus Core
Keyboard G.Skill KM780R
Software Arch Linux + Win10
I'm still trying to understand how the OS controls cache latency.
I mean, obviously something's going on, since the patch is all but ready, but I just don't understand what happened.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
20,709 (3.41/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Ryzen R9 7950X
Motherboard GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s) XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage 2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches
Software Windows 11 Enterprise (legit), Gentoo Linux x64
I'm still trying to understand how the OS controls cache latency.
I mean, obviously something's going on, since the patch is all but ready, but I just don't understand what happened.
I have a hard time with this too.

Is it like, rapidly thread switching triggering constant l3 updates on Ryzen? Or what? What could even cause this?

It's either super incompetent, or super suspicious, that's for sure.
 
Last edited:

Ziggy1971

New Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2021
Messages
2 (0.00/day)
After that mess, I think that the only way of a fair comparison for the upcoming AL reviews would be to post the AMD CPUs results both on win10 and win11 to compare with AL on win11. That would totally backfire for MS. But that needs some balls to be done...
Sorry, but I think any and all leaks, rumors, reviews etc. are completely pointless and invalid until people can reliably run fair tests for all parties.
 

emigrant

New Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
1 (0.00/day)
So on my side (6th October) Windows 11 :
l3 cach.png


13th October Windows 11:
cachemem-13-10.png


And just for compare Window 10 (about June 2021):
cachemem-bitlocker-06-2021.png
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
204 (0.16/day)
System Name Home
Processor 5950x
Motherboard Asrock Taichi x370
Cooling Thermalright True Spirit 140
Memory Patriot 32gb DDR4 3200mhz
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 6700 10gb
Storage Too many to count
Display(s) U2518D+u2417h
Case Chieftec
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply seasonic prime 1000W
Mouse Razer Viper
Keyboard Logitech
Software Windows 10
I'm gonna make some wild assumptions here that Windows 10 got to easy to hack along with the latest exploits and Microsoft decided they need to make Windows 11 so only them and few others could continue to have access.
It's even free to upgrade from windows 10, so the deal here is convince the user at any cost to upgrade so to stop other people/nations to snoop around, except for them of course.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
20,709 (3.41/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Ryzen R9 7950X
Motherboard GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s) XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage 2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches
Software Windows 11 Enterprise (legit), Gentoo Linux x64
I'm gonna make some wild assumptions here that Windows 10 got to easy to hack along with the latest exploits and Microsoft decided they need to make Windows 11 so only them and few others could continue to have access.
It's even free to upgrade from windows 10, so the deal here is convince the user at any cost to upgrade so to stop other people/nations to snoop around, except for them of course.
That... literally has nothing to do with this?
 
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
1,979 (1.30/day)
System Name DadsBadAss
Processor I7 13700k w/ HEATKILLER IV PRO Copper Nickel
Motherboard MSI Z790 Tomahawk Wifi DDR4
Cooling BarrowCH Boxfish 200mm-HWLabs SR2 420/GTX&GTS 360-BP Dual D5 MOD TOP- 2x Koolance PMP 450S
Memory 4x8gb HyperX Predator RGB DDR4 4000
Video Card(s) Asrock 6800xt PG D w/ Byski A-AR6900XT-X
Storage WD SN850x 1TB NVME M.2/Adata XPG SX8200 PRO 1TB NVMe M.2
Display(s) Acer XG270HU
Case ThermalTake X71 w/5 Noctua NF-A14 2000 IP67 PWM/3 Noctua NF-F12 2000 IP67 PWM/3 CorsairML120 Pro RGB
Audio Device(s) Klipsch Promedia 2.1
Power Supply Seasonic Focus PX-850 w/CableMod PRO ModMesh RT-Series Black/Blue
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Black Aluminun Mechanical Clicky Thing With Blue LEDs, hows that for a name?!
Software Win11pro
Alright boys, Were going to build this thingamabob for AderLake!
Whoopsiedaisy! We broke that whatchamacallit for AMD!
Aw shucks, they shouldn't need that right?
Well heck, we'll have to think on it for a couple of months so we fix it jusst right!
 
Joined
Nov 24, 2018
Messages
2,090 (1.07/day)
Location
south wales uk
System Name 1.FortySe7en VR rig 2. intel teliscope rig 3.MSI GP72MVR Leopard Pro .
Processor 1.3900x @stock 2. i7 7700k @5. 3. i7 7700hq
Motherboard 1.aorus x570 ultra 2. z270 Maximus IX Hero
Cooling 1.Hard tube loop, cpu and gpu 2. Hard loop cpu and gpu
Memory 1.Gskill neo @3600 32gb 2.hyperxfury 32gb @3000 3. 16gb hyperx @2400
Video Card(s) 1.GIGABYTE RTX 3080 GAMING OC WaterForce WB 2. Aorus RTX2080 3. 1060 3gb. Arc 770LE 16 gb
Storage 1 M.2 500gb , 2 3tb HDs 2. 256gb ssd, 3tbHD 3. 256 m.2. 1tb ssd
Display(s) 1.LG 50" UHD , oculus rift S.2 MSI Optix MAG342C UWHD. SONY bravia 1080p, . 3.17" 120 hz display
Case 1. Thermaltake P5 2. Thermaltake P3
Audio Device(s) 1 Onboard 2 Onboard 3 Onboard
Power Supply 1.seasonic gx 850w 2. seasonic gx 750w
Mouse 1 ROG Gladius 2 Corsair m65 pro
Keyboard 1. ROG Strix Flare 2. Corsair F75 RBG 3. steelseries RBG
VR HMD rift and rift S and Quest 2.
Software 1. win10 pro 2. win10 pro 3, win10 home
Benchmark Scores 1.7821 cb20 ,cb15 3442 1c 204 cpu-z 1c 539 12c 8847 2. 1106 cb 3.cb 970
we all know MS has to get it wrong many times before they get it right its par the course, i mean how long have we win 10 ? and only the last year or so its been performing 99% as it should now MS wants us suckers to go through it again with 11. i have 2 riggs that will run 11 on there terms but no thanks MS id like them to stick it where the sun dont shine for a few more years :) .
 

viandyka

New Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2019
Messages
2 (0.00/day)
Microsoft and BUGS,, windows 10 is never completed then make new OS

missed the windows 7 smooth OS ever made, clean and fast
 

bug

Joined
May 22, 2015
Messages
13,157 (4.07/day)
Processor Intel i5-12600k
Motherboard Asus H670 TUF
Cooling Arctic Freezer 34
Memory 2x16GB DDR4 3600 G.Skill Ripjaws V
Video Card(s) EVGA GTX 1060 SC
Storage 500GB Samsung 970 EVO, 500GB Samsung 850 EVO, 1TB Crucial MX300 and 2TB Crucial MX500
Display(s) Dell U3219Q + HP ZR24w
Case Raijintek Thetis
Audio Device(s) Audioquest Dragonfly Red :D
Power Supply Seasonic 620W M12
Mouse Logitech G502 Proteus Core
Keyboard G.Skill KM780R
Software Arch Linux + Win10
I have a hard time with this too.

Is it like, rapidly thread switching triggering constant l3 updates on Ryzen? Or what? What could even cause this?

It's either super incompetent, or super suspicious, that's for sure.
That would only cause cache thrashing (which will impact performance), but it wouldn't change latency. Latency is supposed to be a physical trait of the chip... :confused:
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
25,559 (6.52/day)
Windows update break things again and even worse.....surprised ?
For once, this is not the fault of Windows update screwing things up.

As I understand it, this is a change that was made to the thread and execution schedules within the Windows 11 Kernel that were supposed to increase performance and efficiency across the board for all CPU types, but for Ryzen CPU's, and the unique way the CCX handles instructions and code allocations in combination with the way the CPU complex buffers data in&out of the L3 cache, the changes introduced a scheduling mis-match in the prediction branches which then have to be flushed, reallocated and then the fetch functions have to be recalculated without any prediction functions. This is causing delays in instruction processing for data being cached in L3. This does not happen for data stored in L1 or L2 cache.

This problem is also limited to certain types of instructions which is why the performance degradation only seems to exhibit itself in certain scenario's on Ryzen based CPU's. In programs that do not trigger the problem, performance is unaffected and is either indentical to that which would happen in Windows 10, or is improved upon as originally intended.

So this is a complex problem neither microsoft, nor AMD saw coming. The confidence in fixing the problem is high, so it would seem to be only a matter of time and not very long.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
2,515 (1.34/day)
Location
UK, Leicester
System Name Main PC
Processor 13700k
Motherboard Asrock Z690 Steel Legend D4 - Bios 13.02
Cooling Noctua NH-D15S
Memory 32 Gig 3200CL14
Video Card(s) 3080 RTX FE 10G
Storage 1TB 980 PRO (OS, games), 2TB SN850X (games), 2TB DC P4600 (work), 2x 3TB WD Red, 2x 4TB WD Red
Display(s) LG 27GL850
Case Fractal Define R4
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar D2X
Power Supply Antec HCG 750 Gold
Software Windows 10 21H2 LTSC
I think reviewers shouldn't be compelled to do anything, if they are it means its not an independent review, the intel processors I would like to see tested on Windows 10 as that's currently the mainstream OS used by the majority of desktop users.

So the question is, do intel tell reviewers what OS and what patches they have installed before testing? and if yes how is that acceptable?
 

FireFox

The Power Of Intel
Joined
Feb 19, 2014
Messages
7,507 (2.03/day)
Location
Germany
Processor Intel i7 10700K
Motherboard Asus ROG Maximus XII Hero
Cooling 2x Black Ice Nemesis GTX 480 - 1x Black Ice Nemesis GTX 420 - D5 VPP655P - 13x Corsair LL120 - LL140
Memory 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z RGB 3600Hz
Video Card(s) EVGA GEFORCE RTX 3080 XC3 Ultra
Storage Samsung 970 EVO PLUS 500GB/1TB - WD Blue SN550 1TB - 2 X WD Blue 1TB - 3 X WD Black 1TB
Display(s) Asus ROG PG278QR 2560x1440 144Hz (Overclocked 165Hz )/ Samsung
Case Corsair Obsidian 1000D
Audio Device(s) I prefer Gaming-Headset
Power Supply Enermax MaxTytan 1250W 80+ Titanium
Mouse Logitech G502 spectrum
Keyboard Virtuis Advanced Gaming Keyboard ( Batboard )
Software Windows 10 Enterprise/Windows 10 Pro/Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores My PC runs FiFA
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Messages
2,671 (1.09/day)
Latency is supposed to be a physical trait of the chip... :confused:
No. A physical trait would be time needed for an individual transistor to switch a circuit. The rest is a byproduct.

What we see here is an way higher abstraction of what happens at silicon level. Crude example/oversimplification - cache may be 'busy' dealing with some other 'transaction', hence it will look like it's slow, i.e. latency is raised.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
25,559 (6.52/day)
I'm gonna make some wild assumptions here that Windows 10 got to easy to hack along with the latest exploits and Microsoft decided they need to make Windows 11 so only them and few others could continue to have access.
It's even free to upgrade from windows 10, so the deal here is convince the user at any cost to upgrade so to stop other people/nations to snoop around, except for them of course.
Nonsense. This was a profit motivated attempt at a power grab, plain & simple. The microsoft store is what microsoft wants to turn into a similar money maker of the Apple store and Google Play. That's it, money and control. I have been testing Windows 11 extensively and have found no vulnerabilities once the OS is PROPERLY configured.
 

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
58,413 (8.21/day)
Location
Oystralia
System Name Rainbow Sparkles (Power efficient, <350W gaming load)
Processor Ryzen R7 5800x3D (Undervolted, 4.45GHz all core)
Motherboard Asus x570-F (BIOS Modded)
Cooling Alphacool Apex UV - Alphacool Eisblock XPX Aurora + EK Quantum ARGB 3090 w/ active backplate
Memory 2x32GB DDR4 3600 Corsair Vengeance RGB @3866 C18-22-22-22-42 TRFC704 (1.4V Hynix MJR - SoC 1.15V)
Video Card(s) Galax RTX 3090 SG 24GB: Underclocked to 1700Mhz 0.750v (375W down to 250W))
Storage 2TB WD SN850 NVME + 1TB Sasmsung 970 Pro NVME + 1TB Intel 6000P NVME USB 3.2
Display(s) Phillips 32 32M1N5800A (4k144), LG 32" (4K60) | Gigabyte G32QC (2k165) | Phillips 328m6fjrmb (2K144)
Case Fractal Design R6
Audio Device(s) Logitech G560 | Corsair Void pro RGB |Blue Yeti mic
Power Supply Fractal Ion+ 2 860W (Platinum) (This thing is God-tier. Silent and TINY)
Mouse Logitech G Pro wireless + Steelseries Prisma XL
Keyboard Razer Huntsman TE ( Sexy white keycaps)
VR HMD Oculus Rift S + Quest 2
Software Windows 11 pro x64 (Yes, it's genuinely a good OS) OpenRGB - ditch the branded bloatware!
Benchmark Scores Nyooom.
I'm still trying to understand how the OS controls cache latency.
I mean, obviously something's going on, since the patch is all but ready, but I just don't understand what happened.
My guess is security fixes and tweaks for them, like the fixes for specter and meltdown but affecting the wrong CPUs.


The core preference stuff, i can absolutely just see that as a normal situation with a driver coming right after launch. THAT seems innocent enough.
 

Roberto.

New Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2021
Messages
1 (0.00/day)
‎AMD A9-9420 RADEON R5, 5 CORE PROCESSING 2C+3G 3.00 GHz this type of processor will receive a patch... Thank you..‎
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Oct 13, 2021
Messages
1 (0.00/day)
Location
Египет
Processor Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard Asrock b450m steel legend
Cooling Noctua u12s redux
Memory Adata gammix d10 3200 cl16 ___ 16GB
Video Card(s) Palit stormx gtx 1050 ti
Storage XPG GAMMIX S11 Pro 256g + seagate hdd 2TB
Case Couger mx330-g
Power Supply Couger vtc 500w
Software Windows 11 pro (dev)
I have told Microsoft about this problem 6 months ago with no reply
and the problem fixed now in the win11 dev channel
Screenshot 2021-10-13 131819.png
Screenshot 2021-10-13 124153.png
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
35 (0.03/day)
It does seem odd, how Intel works with Microsoft to optimise Windows for AlderLake's topology, and as a side effect performance on AMD processors which was fine under Windows 10, has dropped.

A lot of review sites will have decided to run the benches already for their reviews, getting the Windows 11 based values they will use done first for products already on the market. AMD absolutely needs their PR to engage with these sites and ensure they use the patched version of Windows 11, even if it means re-running the benches. Or at least use the Windows 10 results for AMD CPUs if they don't have time.

Many sites run the benches once and use them for a long time afterwards, so this is pretty critical for AMD.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
25,559 (6.52/day)
It does seem odd, how Intel works with Microsoft to optimise Windows for AlderLake's topology, and as a side effect performance on AMD processors which was fine under Windows 10, has dropped.
Those two things are not related. Kernel level drivers are created for CPUs just like any other piece of hardware and the code is compiled for each as needed for the capability of each CPU family. These problems are very specific to the way Windows interacts with Ryzen CPU's. It is not related to anything Intel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bug
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
957 (0.44/day)
Processor AMD Ryzen 9 5950X
Motherboard Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Hero WiFi
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer II 420
Memory 32Gb G-Skill Trident Z Neo @3806MHz C14
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX2070
Storage Seagate FireCuda 530 1TB
Display(s) Samsung G9 49" Curved Ultrawide
Case Cooler Master Cosmos
Audio Device(s) O2 USB Headphone AMP
Power Supply Corsair HX850i
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Cherry MX
Software Windows 11
So anyone wanna bet that all Alder Lake benchmarks (that compare to a Ryzen CPU) are done on the release version, or build 258 of Windows 11???

Wintel is back.
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
943 (0.47/day)
Do we even know alder lake performing at optimum with windows 11 yet?
The theory that, microsoft can be bribed by intel to favour them is just ridicilous and beyond rational thinking.
What is possible is that AMD have always been historically slow mover in patches and security. It is safe to say embedded into their dna.
 
Top