Full immersion systems

Frank_100 · May 30, 2023

When will someone start designing motherboards, graphics cards and cases for full immersion?

The CPU, SSD, and Graphics Card all run hot on stock systems.

Building such a system is impractical due to the signal and power routing.

Is anybody doing anything in this area?

maxfly · May 30, 2023

Nope. The closest you'll get is a custom loop.
20 years ago there was a PC submerged in mineral oil (fishtank)but that was short lived for obvious reasons.

Bill_Bright · May 30, 2023

Frank_100 said:
The CPU, SSD, and Graphics Card all run hot on stock systems.

That's a blanket statement and like all blanket statements, is wrong (and yes, I understand the contradiction and irony of that statement).

It is not true that "all" CPUs, SSDs and graphics cards run "hot" on stock systems (whatever "stock system" is supposed to mean). In fact, in a properly configured and maintained case, with components running at the manufacturer's default settings, and the computer operating in a "comfortable" (e.g. "normal" - for humans - room temperature) environment, it is safe to say "all" CPUs, SSDs and graphics cards (that are NOT faulty) do NOT run "hot".

Might they on "some" poorly designed systems? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems where the user dinks with the clocks and voltages when they don't know what they are doing? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems operating in ambient environments inadequately controlled by the user? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems where the user fails to do regular preventive maintenance (like cleaning filters and the interior of heat-trapping dust)? Yes.

Frank_100 said:
When will someone start designing motherboards, graphics cards and cases for full immersion?

When there is a high enough demand for such products to make designing, manufacturing, and distributing them for sale becomes economically feasible (read: profitable) - which most likely will never be.

Why?

Because...

Frank_100 said:
Building such a system is impractical due to the signal and power routing.

Among many other reasons.

Don't forget, even if you build an immersed system in a 100 gallon fish tank, if the ambient (room) temperature gets too high, eventually the coolant liquid will get to hot to adequately cool the heat sensitive components (without some sort of expensive - to buy/build and operate - refrigeration system). And then the problem will be compounded by the fact that same coolant will take nearly forever to cool back down to safe levels - instead of nearly instantly (relatively speaking) with today's conventional cooling solutions.

Bottom line - been there, done that, not worth it... ...well, not me personally but others have and I try to learn from the mistakes of others. So I have no interest or intention of re-inventing the wheel, or the Edsel, or a better cigarette pack holder. And I doubt any commercial builder does either.

Frank_100 · May 30, 2023

Bill_Bright said:
That's a blanket statement and like all blanket statements, is wrong (and yes, I understand the contradiction and irony of that statement).

It is not true that "all" CPUs, SSDs and graphics cards run "hot" on stock systems (whatever "stock system" is supposed to mean). In fact, in a properly configured and maintained case, with components running at the manufacturer's default settings, and the computer operating in a "comfortable" (e.g. "normal" - for humans - room temperature) environment, it is safe to say "all" CPUs, SSDs and graphics cards (that are NOT faulty) do NOT run "hot".

Might they on "some" poorly designed systems? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems where the user dinks with the clocks and voltages when they don't know what they are doing? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems operating in ambient environments inadequately controlled by the user? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems where the user fails to do regular preventive maintenance (like cleaning filters and the interior of heat-trapping dust)? Yes.

When there is a high enough demand for such products to make designing, manufacturing, and distributing them for sale becomes economically feasible (read: profitable) - which most likely will never be.

Why?

Because...

Among many other reasons.

Don't forget, even if you build an immersed system in a 100 gallon fish tank, if the ambient (room) temperature gets too high, eventually the coolant liquid will get to hot to adequately cool the heat sensitive components (without some sort of expensive - to buy/build and operate - refrigeration system). And then the problem will be compounded by the fact that same coolant will take nearly forever to cool back down to safe levels - instead of nearly instantly (relatively speaking) with today's conventional cooling solutions.

Bottom line - been there, done that, not worth it... ...well, not me personally but others have and I try to learn from the mistakes of others. So I have no interest or intention of re-inventing the wheel, or the Edsel, or a better cigarette pack holder. And I doubt any commercial builder does either.

That is a blanket statement.

But you understand.

SSD PCIe 5.0 run hot and need large coolers relative to PCIe 3.0 SSD's.

Excluding Xeon and AMD 7900 (not 7900X or 7900X3D) processors, any processor you want runs hot. I can't speak for Celeron or Apple M2, but I don't expect to ever use one.
I doubt that under heavy use, the current line of processors from AMD or Intel last much beyond the 3 year warranty.

So by stock system I mean a system that an enthusiast would build for under 4 grand.

A refrigeration system for the coolant is a given the same way a reservoir is a given for a custom loop.

Thanks for the feedback.
I'm just trying to start a conversation on this subject.

I may even try to build such a system
...but it would be a lot of work.

Toothless · May 30, 2023

maxfly said:
Nope. The closest you'll get is a custom loop.
20 years ago there was a PC submerged in mineral oil (fishtank)but that was short lived for obvious reasons.

They still make those, y'know.

Frank_100 · May 31, 2023

Toothless said:
They still make those, y'know.

There was, maybe still is, the CoolBitts system.

I can do better for $2450.

Taking Immersion in Gaming One Step Further: Full PC Immersion with the CoolBitts ICEbox

www.anandtech.com

Toothless · May 31, 2023

Frank_100 said:
There was, maybe still is, the CoolBitts system.

I can do better for $2450.

Taking Immersion in Gaming One Step Further: Full PC Immersion with the CoolBitts ICEbox

www.anandtech.com

Do it.

Fangio1951 · May 31, 2023

This =

2 Gallons submerged mineral oil PC

STE Oil is a leading provider in white mineral oil, both food grade and tech grade.

store.steoil.com

Good luck if you go ahead with it.

eidairaman1 · May 31, 2023

I remember a Magazine Article, might of been Maximum PC that someone did oil cooling in early to mid 2000s.

[Case Gallery] - Oil PC (pool cooled)

To view this case mod, go here. Specs: E8400@3870XFX 780i mobo4GB Kingston 85002 x Asus EN8800GT3 x WD2500AAKS in Raid 0ASUS DRW- 20B1LT27" Soniq LCDSilverstone Strider ST60F 600W Mods: The cooling system has been an evolution from pumping oil through an air cooled radiator to...

www.techpowerup.com

joemama · May 31, 2023

Just throw your pc in a fish tank and fill it with mineral oil

AMF · May 31, 2023

Frank_100 said:
That is a blanket statement.

But you understand.

SSD PCIe 5.0 run hot and need large coolers relative to PCIe 3.0 SSD's.

Excluding Xeon and AMD 7900 (not 7900X or 7900X3D) processors, any processor you want runs hot. I can't speak for Celeron or Apple M2, but I don't expect to ever use one.
I doubt that under heavy use, the current line of processors from AMD or Intel last much beyond the 3 year warranty.

So by stock system I mean a system that an enthusiast would build for under 4 grand.

A refrigeration system for the coolant is a given the same way a reservoir is a given for a custom loop.

Thanks for the feedback.
I'm just trying to start a conversation on this subject.

I may even try to build such a system
...but it would be a lot of work.

has any1 ever tried 91% isopropyl alcohol in a pressurized closed loop?

AusWolf · May 31, 2023

Bill_Bright said:
That's a blanket statement and like all blanket statements, is wrong (and yes, I understand the contradiction and irony of that statement).

It is not true that "all" CPUs, SSDs and graphics cards run "hot" on stock systems (whatever "stock system" is supposed to mean). In fact, in a properly configured and maintained case, with components running at the manufacturer's default settings, and the computer operating in a "comfortable" (e.g. "normal" - for humans - room temperature) environment, it is safe to say "all" CPUs, SSDs and graphics cards (that are NOT faulty) do NOT run "hot".

Might they on "some" poorly designed systems? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems where the user dinks with the clocks and voltages when they don't know what they are doing? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems operating in ambient environments inadequately controlled by the user? Yes.

Might they on "some" systems where the user fails to do regular preventive maintenance (like cleaning filters and the interior of heat-trapping dust)? Yes.

When there is a high enough demand for such products to make designing, manufacturing, and distributing them for sale becomes economically feasible (read: profitable) - which most likely will never be.

Why?

Because...

Among many other reasons.

Don't forget, even if you build an immersed system in a 100 gallon fish tank, if the ambient (room) temperature gets too high, eventually the coolant liquid will get to hot to adequately cool the heat sensitive components (without some sort of expensive - to buy/build and operate - refrigeration system). And then the problem will be compounded by the fact that same coolant will take nearly forever to cool back down to safe levels - instead of nearly instantly (relatively speaking) with today's conventional cooling solutions.

Bottom line - been there, done that, not worth it... ...well, not me personally but others have and I try to learn from the mistakes of others. So I have no interest or intention of re-inventing the wheel, or the Edsel, or a better cigarette pack holder. And I doubt any commercial builder does either.

The problem with blanket statements is that I hate them all equally.

On a more serious note to OP, not all systems run hot by default. Just buy a non-K Intel or non-X AMD CPU, RAM with a heatsink, an SSD that doesn't overheat, and a GPU that isn't the cheapest in its subcategory, and you're sorted.

Paying for the best performance in every segment (or underdesigning your cooling) comes with increased heat. It's just the nature of things.

Selaya · May 31, 2023

you guys are totally missing the point, full immersion is already being run on (relatively) large-scale, but not in the ass-backwards ways you guys are proposing

rather, non-conductive phase change liquid/gases are used w/ boiling points somewhere around 50 degrees centigrade; which allows for very efficient temperature control of said immersion system around that temperature)
basically, a supersized heatpipe where your hardware's inside it

AusWolf · May 31, 2023

All my PCs are full immersion systems. They are fully immersed in room temperature air. :cool:

Bill_Bright · May 31, 2023

Frank_100 said:
So by stock system I mean a system that an enthusiast would build for under 4 grand.

Ummm, that is not the definition of a stock system.

If an "enthusiast" builds it (regardless of price), it is a "custom" system, not stock. Why? Because the enthusiast hand-picks the components from a variety of manufacturers to put in that computer. For example, an ASUS/Intel motherboard and EVGA/AMD graphics card, Samsung SSD and Corsair RAM, Fractal Design case and Seasonic PSU, Logitech mouse and Hyper-X keyboard, Noctua cooler and ViewSonic monitor.

A good example of a "stock" system would be 1 of the million identical models of "off-the-shelf" HP PCs from Best Buy or Walmart comprised of HP made (or re-branded) components.

*****

If you want to talk about immersion cooling, how about Microsoft's highly successful, bottom of the Scottish Sea data center?

A Computer Guy · May 31, 2023

Fangio1951 said:
This =

View attachment 298422

2 Gallons submerged mineral oil PC

STE Oil is a leading provider in white mineral oil, both food grade and tech grade.

store.steoil.com

Good luck if you go ahead with it.

I remember reading about this some years ago.
Some major problems with the oil approach regarding typical consumer hardware.

debris in the mineral oil over time
- as things like stickers and their glue decompose
- particles from ornaments
- dust
plastics and wire sheathing become brittle over time
wicking of the oil up the wires
of course if you need to do an upgrade or troubleshooting the problems with un-submerging

AusWolf · May 31, 2023

A Computer Guy said:
I remember reading about this some years ago.
Some major problems with the oil approach regarding typical consumer hardware.

debris in the mineral oil over time

as things like stickers and their glue decompose

particles from ornaments

dust

plastics and wire sheathing become brittle over time

wicking of the oil up the wires

of course if you need to do an upgrade or troubleshooting the problems with un-submerging

This... not to mention, the fluid stores the heat from the PC components, but only up to a certain capacity. You need to get rid of the heat, that is, exchange it with the environment. You need to move the liquid around, and create more surface area with the room the PC is in, then boom! traditional liquid cooling is born again.

Frank_100 · May 31, 2023

joemama said:
Just throw your pc in a fish tank and fill it with mineral oil

The fish tank and mineral oil makes for easier cable management.

Mineral oil is cheap and does not evaporate quickly.

...but Fish tanks are heavy.

The mineral oil is sticky.

Putting the power supply in the tank just adds excess heat.

3M makes much better coolants, but you need a closed loop.

What I'm brain storming is a closed loop.

Imagine an matx or itx board in a tank just big enough to hold the board with the graphics card mounted parallel.

You could probably get away with removing the fans from the graphic card.

The tank would be closed on top with cables sealed into the lid to prevent leaks.

The rest of the system could be like any other custom loop.
(radiator, reservoir, pump, tubes)

A Computer Guy · May 31, 2023

Frank_100 said:
The fish tank and mineral oil makes for easier cable management.

Mineral oil is cheap and does not evaporate quickly.

...but Fish tanks are heavy.

The mineral oil is sticky.

Putting the power supply in the tank just adds excess heat.

3M makes much better coolants, but you need a closed loop.

What I'm brain storming is a closed loop.

Imagine an matx or itx board in a tank just big enough to hold the board with the graphics card mounted parallel.

You could probably get away with removing the fans from the graphic card.

The tank would be closed on top with cables sealed into the lid to prevent leaks.

The rest of the system could be like any other custom loop.

Just some thoughts
- You still need flow within the tank to carry away hot fluid at a faster rate than convection.
- The fluid will likely wick though the cables eventually.

claes · May 31, 2023

Why submerge a computer whose components are already liquid cooled?

P4-630 · May 31, 2023

claes said:
Why submerge a computer whose components are already liquid cooled?

Double trouble..

TheoneandonlyMrK · May 31, 2023

You realise their are low power options, I tried F1 2023 on the SteamDeck@ 1680x1050@60 at 12 watts, easily playable, or I could toast my own head to do similar also.@4k, horses courses.

AusWolf · Jun 1, 2023

TheoneandonlyMrK said:
You realise their are low power options, I tried F1 2023 on the SteamDeck@ 1680x1050@60 at 12 watts, easily playable, or I could toast my own head to do similar also.@4k, horses courses.

I've mentioned it before, probably others have too. We're being ignored, it seems (maybe on purpose?).

thesmokingman · Jun 1, 2023

Frank_100 said:
Is anybody doing anything in this area?

Cray. Fluorinert is not cheap like over 1K per gallon.

Frank_100 · Jun 1, 2023

thesmokingman said:
Cray. Fluorinert is not cheap like over 1K per gallon.

That is one of the reasons for wanting a closed loop.

FC-40 would be the ideal but I'd need to find a re-seller.

System Name	DadsBadAss
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Full immersion systems

Frank_100

maxfly

Bill_Bright

Frank_100

Toothless

Tech, Games, and TPU!

Frank_100

Taking Immersion in Gaming One Step Further: Full PC Immersion with the CoolBitts ICEbox

Toothless

Tech, Games, and TPU!

Taking Immersion in Gaming One Step Further: Full PC Immersion with the CoolBitts ICEbox

Fangio1951

2 Gallons submerged mineral oil PC

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman

[Case Gallery] - Oil PC (pool cooled)

joemama

AMF

AusWolf

Selaya

AusWolf

Bill_Bright

A Computer Guy

2 Gallons submerged mineral oil PC

AusWolf

Frank_100

A Computer Guy

claes

P4-630

TheoneandonlyMrK

AusWolf

thesmokingman

Frank_100

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Software	integrated into the chassis
Benchmark Scores	9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

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Processor	AMD 5900x
Motherboard	Asus x570 Strix-E
Cooling	Hardware Labs
Memory	G.Skill 4000c17 2x16gb
Video Card(s)	RTX 3090
Storage	Sabrent
Display(s)	Samsung G9
Case	Phanteks 719
Audio Device(s)	Fiio K5 Pro
Power Supply	EVGA 1000 P2
Mouse	Logitech G600
Keyboard	Corsair K95