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Game Content, The Good, Bad and Ugly.

Frick

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It IS that bad. The character moves like on rails and you can only vary your view a few degrees, plus I think if you stop "pushing" the mouse, the camera goes back to a certain position, so it feels like fighting to regain some control. It's garbage. And the worst thing is that there is absolutely no reason to do it that way. Like I said I hope it doesn't happen more or too often, because I'll through the digital download out the window and never look back.
You're talking about the intro. You never have control over those. Tbh i dont really see the difference between this and a normal cutscene. Its just a different way of doing it.
 
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You're talking about the intro. You never have control over those. Tbh i dont really see the difference between this and a normal cutscene. Its just a different way of doing it.
I'm not talking about the 1-2 mins long video. Intro as in introductory scenes. I'm talking about up until you have to take the elevator in the boss' office. I've already stated that cutscenes are horrible and kill immersion anyway, so I don't see your point. However this is much worse than a normal cutscene. First of all, you can skip a cutscene if it's as useless as those 20 mins, this travesti used in HR, you can't skip it.

And even if you want to watch it (since there's no other option to get to know the story) in a cutscene you can at least relax, get your hands off the kb and watch it, maybe even while drinking or eating something in the process. In the travesti method of HR, you are supposed to do something? No? Then why do they give me some control at all? Will I have to hit a button from time to time like in other games? (horrible thing too)

Also why are things happening around the player, if the player is not suposed to look at them? So you try to look around, but you can't. What happened around was just a lame 2 sec incident to "fill up" the scene so it's not empty while the train brings you there and they are not even consequent to that small and silly storiette. In HL2 you get hundreds of those situations or in Black Mesa for example, but those silly situations have a beginning and an ending if you care to look at them, or you can just walk away. In HR they simply force you to abandon before even the most simple conclusion.

Nah, the intro scene is stupid, unnecesary and just plain wrong considering its lenght.

You never have control over those.
Of course you do. In every Valve game, you are always in full control. ES games full control. Crysis, Metro... Some also limit your movement at certain points, but at least it does not kill immersion or is for a shorter period. FarCry 2 comes to mind. I didn't like too much, but it makes sense, you're in a car, and you're crippled with malaria, so you can't move, fair enough, but you could at least look everywhere. COD MW or MW2 I don't remember, where they take player to where they execute him. It's tied up and held by 2 guys. Not being able to move and look around completely free is justified and in this case it actually improves the immersion*.

Sure there's many games with extensive use of cutscenes, long ones. I'm talking about videos this time. Always remember this is an opinion thread, those games are garbage. Final Fantasy? Garbage. Metal Gear? Trash. Said it in my first post. If I want a movie, I'll go get a real movie where I don't have to bother playing 5 mins so that the next scene begins.


* And I'm far from saying it was good or defending COD at all. I hated the Modern Warfare Call of Duties long before anyone else (since the very COD 4: MW), because I already saw the signs in COD4 of what it was about to come.

** BTW the FC2 and COD 4 examples I used to have as the worst way of introducing the player to the world (COD one was especially long, boring and meaningless), until Mass Effect and now HR.
 
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Frick

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See them as extended intros then! And Skyrim is exactly the same, as you're tied down and can't do anything there too. Other than that I don't know what to say, we obviously have different opinions here. :)
 
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See them as extended intros then! And Skyrim is exactly the same, as you're tied down and can't do anything there too. Other than that I don't know what to say, we obviously have different opinions here. :)
It's not the same, buddy. In Deus Ex you are not tied, so there's absolutely no reason for not being able to control your own movement (and it lasts 5 mins, not 20). It's as simple as that.

And no it cannot be taken as an extended intro, because you don't know if it's an intro or you're going to have to participate at some point.

And finally yeah, we obviously have different opinions, you don't give a fuck about immersion. I do.
 

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But this can be said just about anything else that people ever do. Don't you think so? Everyone reinvents a wheel somehow, everyone "steals" ideas (even unintentionally). Originality should lie somewhere else. It's not like "wow this is kewl, no one ever did this before!!!" it's rather "I found another way to do it".
Well, lots of people re-invent the wheel. It's not a matter of "I found another way to do it," it's a matter of "I found a better way to do it." What good is ripping off games if you don't make it better.

Personally, I think that more depth to a game is important, but depending on what the game is, it may or may not need to be made incredibly deep.

I cite Geometry Wars 2 as a great game, not because it has a ton of content but because it was developed in a way that always makes you want to do better. I've never got such good use out of a cheaper game than this. Definitely one of the most fun games and most cost effective games I've ever played.

Many games like Skyrim I would play for enjoyment, a reasonable level of depth so I can think about how I do things but where I don't have to run my brain 100%, which is nice because sometimes you just want to unwind.

Personally I use games as a stress relief and different games suit different needs.
 

Frick

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It's not the same, buddy. In Deus Ex you are not tied, so there's absolutely no reason for not being able to control your own movement (and it lasts 5 mins, not 20). It's as simple as that.

And no it cannot be taken as an extended intro, because you don't know if it's an intro or you're going to have to participate at some point.

And finally yeah, we obviously have different opinions, you don't give a fuck about immersion. I do.
I see it as the same. And yes, it can be seen as an intro because you probably want to watch it the first time you play it. Why wouldn't you? And about what you said earlier that stuff is going on around you but you can't interact with it, isn't that part of "immersion"? I mean the part where a lot of stuff is going on around you.

And immershun could be a good concept, it's just that it feels devs (I'm looking at you Bethsoft) put that ahead of what I care about which is storytelling. Which is why we will never agree with eachother, we play games for entirely different reasons. I'm not saying one way is better than the other.

EDIT: But this depends too, some games doesn't have storytelling at all but rather generates stories (Dwarf Fortress, ZangbandTK etc) and I love those games.
 
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I see it as the same. And yes, it can be seen as an intro because you probably want to watch it the first time you play it. Why wouldn't you? And about what you said earlier that stuff is going on around you but you can't interact with it, isn't that part of "immersion"? I mean the part where a lot of stuff is going on around you.
If I could stay around and do what I want it would contribute to immersion. Since I can't stay and look at what I want for as long as I want, it does the absolute opposite.

And BTW I just fired up Skyrim and started a new play and yes the first 5 mins suck too. As I was whatching it I was like "Come on, come on..." and I rememberd me saying that for the entire 5 mins the first time I played. I had forgoten about it, until you mentioned it, and didn't fully remember until now when I fired it up. Some things is better to forget. And I created 2 saves of the beginning of the game, if I ever want to start over, one just before creating the character and one after that crap of going on rails. just so you realise how much I hate that shit.

And immershun could be a good concept, it's just that it feels devs (I'm looking at you Bethsoft) put that ahead of what I care about which is storytelling. Which is why we will never agree with eachother, we play games for entirely different reasons. I'm not saying one way is better than the other.
Well, then I don't know why you discuss my post. I stated in first post and several times later, that if I want storetelling, I'll go for the good storetelling, which is books. If I want a mediocre story, told in cinematic scenes, I'll go watch a movie. If I want to play, which obviously involves gameplay, which obviously involves player control, I'll play a games. That's why Bethesda games are king and scenes like the one in Deus Ex and yeah those 5 mins in Skyrim are crap for me. I'm not talking about the game, I can't judge since I've only played like 90 minutes.

* those 5 minutes are outweighted by the next 60+ mins that the intro lasts and where you are far more free to do as you please.

And still I would have considered it 100 times better if:

you were allowed to try to escape and they kill you or something (arrow to the knee :laugh:) right afterwards. They already show you what happens if you try to scape right before, when the guy tries to scape and is killed, so again there's no reason to keep you off the control. 50% of people will probably do as told, the other half will try to scape and then learn better. There's never a reason to limit the player like that, except for lazy developers not wanting to test the posible outcomes.

And the most immersion killing situation is when you kneel yourlself for your head to be severed. I would never ever ever ever ever do that, so it simply killed immersion at that point. But like I said it's fixed soon and the scene lasts like 5 mins so it's not as bad as 20 mins.
 

Frick

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Just making conversation. :(
My point is that you did not just say that you prefer storetelling over immersion, so it's not a big issue for you. You are arguing and saying that it does not kill immersion, or it seemed that way to me.

If that was not the case, then apologies and let's hope for better communication in the future. :toast: