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General Cryptocoin Discussion

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Credit cards, wire transfers, all of that currently requires giant office buildings that require lights, air conditioning, etc etc etc. By comparison, crypto is downright green.

The rest of your post is changing the subject, and I'm personally not interested in debating everything in the world with you.


cause you know the compute farms in multiple countries bitcoin requires are somehow any different?


Oh, of course, tiny little distributed operation?

even Etherium pos will still use more energy than credit card networks; it gets smoked by several other existing crypto.


Efficiency rankings
  1. Hedera – HBAR
  2. Tezos – XTZ
  3. Polkadot – DOT
  4. Cardano – ADA
  5. Algorand – ALGO
  6. Ethereum 2.0 – ETH 2.0

So, where exactly are we not making massive buildings with massive amounts of AC?

Each of our top two cryptos are some of the worst choices you can make (both bitcoin and ethereum suck at making anywhere near the transactions the cc networks make, and the entire crypto world would crash tomorrow without people turning maxed-out ccs into coin as "a great investment!"
 
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cause you know the compute farms in multiple countries bitcoin requires are somehow any different?


Oh, of course, tiny little distributed operation?

even Etherium pos will still use more energy than credit card networks; it gets smoked by several other existing crypto.


Efficiency rankings
  1. Hedera – HBAR
  2. Tezos – XTZ
  3. Polkadot – DOT
  4. Cardano – ADA
  5. Algorand – ALGO
  6. Ethereum 2.0 – ETH 2.0

So, where exactly are we not making massive buildings with massive amounts of AC?

Each of our top two cryptos are some of the worst choices you can make (both bitcoin and ethereum suck at making anywhere near the transactions the cc networks make, and the entire crypto world would crash tomorrow without people turning maxed-out ccs into coin as "a great investment!"
Banks require all of that in their data centers, plus all of the people oriented buildings. Offices, hundreds of employees, multiple buildings, towers, branches, etc etc etc. A BTC farming operation requires a few people at most, for the most basic ones. Total power/emissions for just one of the banking systems, all inclusive, absolutely dwarfs the entire crypto space. There's no way around it.
 
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All over Europe there are restrictions coming to energy use, not sure if this isn't another blow to crypto. Sure, not where most crypto was farmed anyway, but it's still a massive market, for farming and transaction control.
 
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Banks require all of that in their data centers, plus all of the people oriented buildings. Offices, hundreds of employees, multiple buildings, towers, branches, etc etc etc. A BTC farming operation requires a few people at most, for the most basic ones. Total power/emissions for just one of the banking systems, all inclusive, absolutely dwarfs the entire crypto space. There's no way around it.

You need those banks to supply your dollars to purchase Bitcoin directly from an exchange, or a third-party platform like PayPal to do it more directly.

Where exactly do you think the whole crypto revolution would be without easy online transfers or credit card payments?
 
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You need those banks to supply your dollars to purchase Bitcoin directly from an exchange, or a third-party platform like PayPal to do it more directly.

Where exactly do you think the whole crypto revolution would be without easy online transfers or credit card payments?

That misses the *entire* point of crypto. The goal is to not transfer between dollars and bitcoins, but to *replace* dollars with bitcoins.

I'm not going to sit here and explain the entire cryptocurrency 101.
 
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That misses the *entire* point of crypto. The goal is to not transfer between dollars and bitcoins, but to *replace* dollars with bitcoins.

I'm not going to sit here and explain the entire cryptocurrency 101.
The entire point of crypto is originally to give folks a way to easily pay for illegal items, ( remember Silk Road, of course now it's noting but virtually-untraceable ransomware payments, and dark web boards for reselling hacked data:


The only folks touting "Dudebro, you should get in ion this crypto yesterday!" are folks who buy the BS, but don't realize they're being manipulated by the mega-rich (who benefit by being lost in the noise, and can easily hide their assets in all this daily volatility)

Quit pretending like you know 'the answer (TM)," when you haven't even figured out the question yet, young pad-wan :rolleyes: crypto was just an electronic version of the Commodities Market, except it has no actual enforced delivery date for jack. or shit.

 
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The goal is to not transfer between dollars and bitcoins, but to *replace* dollars with bitcoins.

That was maybe the goal about 5 years ago, when Steam started experimenting with BTC payments.

Guess what happened?

1. Bitcoin's 5 transactions per second was insufficient to handle Steam's capacity. Transaction fees skyrocketed to $20+ per transaction, leading to people buying $60 games + $20 bitcoin transaction fees.

2. Those who cut transaction fees below the average $20 at that time had to wait days, possibly weeks, before Steam got the bitcoin.

3. Return handling was complicated. At a minimum, returning a $60 game was done by performing another bitcoin transaction, meaning Steam had to front another $20 bitcoin transaction fee to return the BTC back to the user. There were questions: should you return 0.03BTC (or whatever), or do you return $Dollars ?? I think Steam returned Dollars, proving that the BTC price was too volatile to be used as payment.

4. That was with "normal" issues (transactions and returns). Nothing out of the ordinary yet. Then you account for the fact that 50% of the bitcoins were outright fraudulent, and it was pretty obvious this wasn't going to work.

That was 2016. Over the next years, I have enjoyed BTC enthusiasts explain to me how BTC is a "Store of Value" (woops, price went down), I mean an inflation-hedge (woops, it went down starting in December 2021, far in excess than inflation or USD/EUR and other measurements). And how we have you coming back talking about transactions, because apparently you've forgotten where the BTC arguments were 5 years ago and feel like repeating things.

5 years from now, are you going to be echoing the "store of value" and "inflation hedge" arguments, pretending that I've forgotten about December 2021? There's a reason why the BTC enthusiasts keep changing their argument, because each time we try to use BTC for something (be it transactions, store of value, or inflation hedge), it turns out to be useless at the task. I guess most recently was this "Stablecoin hype", where you use BTC as an 18% yield vehicle, and now Celsius / Voyager is collapsing because of that mistake.

-------------

#3 alone is sufficient to kill BTC as a transaction medium. The fact that I can buy a $60 game and then get a return from that game (and get my $60 back) is only possible because the US Dollar is stable across a 30 day period. BTC never is that stable, no one will be willing to take the pin-risk of BTC's price changing. You either stop doing returns ("all sales fiinal") to mitigate the threat, or force the consumer to have the threat (see Tesla's shitty "Dogecoin" strategy. Price goes up, they return $Dollars to the user on returns. Price goes down, they return Dogecoin).

There's no way around the volatility and purchases/returns. It just leads to a shitty situation for everybody.
 
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The entire point of crypto is originally to give folks a way to easily pay for illegal items, ( remember Silk Road, of course now it's noting but virtually-untraceable ransomware payments, and dark web boards for reselling hacked data:


The only folks touting "Dudebro, you should get in ion this crypto yesterday!" are folks who buy the BS, but don't realize they're being manipulated by the mega-rich (who benefit by being lost in the noise, and can easily hide their assets in all this daily volatility)

Quit pretending like you know 'the answer (TM)," when you haven't even figured out the question yet, young pad-wan :rolleyes: crypto was just an electronic version of the Commodities Market, except it has no actual enforced delivery date for jack. or shit.

The total amount of illegal trade conducted in US dollars is orders of magnitude higher than bitcoin. Bitcoin just allowed quicker/safer transactions for the criminals. The fact that criminals USE crypto does not mean that is the POINT of crypto any more than it is the POINT of the US dollar.

And don't call me "young padawan" especially if you can't even spell it correctly. Judging by your writing style, I've been in this game since before you were born. And even if that's not the case, personal attacks aren't allowed here, nor are they useful for the conversation.

That was maybe the goal about 5 years ago, when Steam started experimenting with BTC payments.

Guess what happened?

1. Bitcoin's 5 transactions per second was insufficient to handle Steam's capacity. Transaction fees skyrocketed to $20+ per transaction, leading to people buying $60 games + $20 bitcoin transaction fees.

2. Those who cut transaction fees below the average $20 at that time had to wait days, possibly weeks, before Steam got the bitcoin.

3. Return handling was complicated. At a minimum, returning a $60 game was done by performing another bitcoin transaction, meaning Steam had to front another $20 bitcoin transaction fee to return the BTC back to the user. There were questions: should you return 0.03BTC (or whatever), or do you return $Dollars ?? I think Steam returned Dollars, proving that the BTC price was too volatile to be used as payment.

4. That was with "normal" issues (transactions and returns). Nothing out of the ordinary yet. Then you account for the fact that 50% of the bitcoins were outright fraudulent, and it was pretty obvious this wasn't going to work.

That was 2016. Over the next years, I have enjoyed BTC enthusiasts explain to me how BTC is a "Store of Value" (woops, price went down), I mean an inflation-hedge (woops, it went down starting in December 2021, far in excess than inflation or USD/EUR and other measurements). And how we have you coming back talking about transactions, because apparently you've forgotten where the BTC arguments were 5 years ago and feel like repeating things.

5 years from now, are you going to be echoing the "store of value" and "inflation hedge" arguments, pretending that I've forgotten about December 2021? There's a reason why the BTC enthusiasts keep changing their argument, because each time we try to use BTC for something (be it transactions, store of value, or inflation hedge), it turns out to be useless at the task. I guess most recently was this "Stablecoin hype", where you use BTC as an 18% yield vehicle, and now Celsius / Voyager is collapsing because of that mistake.

-------------

#3 alone is sufficient to kill BTC as a transaction medium. The fact that I can buy a $60 game and then get a return from that game (and get my $60 back) is only possible because the US Dollar is stable across a 30 day period. BTC never is that stable, no one will be willing to take the pin-risk of BTC's price changing. You either stop doing returns ("all sales fiinal") to mitigate the threat, or force the consumer to have the threat (see Tesla's shitty "Dogecoin" strategy. Price goes up, they return $Dollars to the user on returns. Price goes down, they return Dogecoin).

There's no way around the volatility and purchases/returns. It just leads to a shitty situation for everybody.
Perhaps I should have said that is the point of "crypto" instead of "bitcoin." Bitcoin is indeed, an MVP. It's not sufficient in its current form to replace dollars. That says nothing of the concept of crypto in general, which was what I meant to convey.
Utter nonsense. Crypto networks use a ton of power and the ratio is no more or less significant than traditional banking. Crypto networks use less right now because they're nowhere near as large as real money and can't compete in raw volume.
Do the math. Per transaction, crypto uses orders of magnitude less energy when you consider everything that must go into a transaction. No, I won't do the math for you, as judging by your dismissal, you're not interested in actual dialogue. So if I did, you wouldn't accept it anyway.
 
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Perhaps I should have said that is the point of "crypto" instead of "bitcoin." Bitcoin is indeed, an MVP. It's not sufficient in its current form to replace dollars. That says nothing of the concept of crypto in general, which was what I meant to convey

There is no cryptocoin that solves the volatility problem.

Problem #3 exists with Etherium, Montero, Doge and whatever else comes about.

The only coins with stability are stablecoins, and it is beginning to look like that is fake stability as Luna/Terra and Iron/Titan went kaput.
 
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There is no cryptocoin that solves the volatility problem.

Problem #3 exists with Etherium, Montero, Doge and whatever else comes about.

The only coins with stability are stablecoins, and it is beginning to look like that is fake stability as Luna/Terra and Iron/Titan went kaput.
Take a look at the world around you... even the US dollar is not immune to volatility. Obviously crypto is MORE volatile, but the thing that fixes that is *adoption*, not technology development. As soon as a crypto exists that is able to be adopted as a currency, and IS adopted as a currency, it will have the clout behind it to become less volatile. Stablecoins are definitely not the answer, I agree.
 
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Take a look at the world around you... even the US dollar is not immune to volatility. Obviously crypto is MORE volatile, but the thing that fixes that is *adoption*, not technology development. As soon as a crypto exists that is able to be adopted as a currency, and IS adopted as a currency, it will have the clout behind it to become less volatile. Stablecoins are definitely not the answer, I agree.

The US Dollar changed by 1.4% across June1st to July 1st: https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUUR0000SA0&output_view=pct_1mth

BTC Changed from $29,xxx to $19,xxx from June 1st to July 1st, a change of 34%

Are you seriously going to keep arguing against me on this point? The volatility on BTC is completely insane, and no cryptocoin seems to have fixed it.

Obviously crypto is MORE volatile, but the thing that fixes that is *adoption*, not technology development

EDIT: On this point, BTC's transaction rate has been going down since its peak in 2019. https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions

If anything, there's fewer people actually using Bitcoin today, than there was in 2019.
 
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The total amount of illegal trade conducted in US dollars is orders of magnitude higher than bitcoin. Bitcoin just allowed quicker/safer transactions for the criminals. The fact that criminals USE crypto does not mean that is the POINT of crypto any more than it is the POINT of the US dollar.

And don't call me "young padawan" especially if you can't even spell it correctly. Judging by your writing style, I've been in this game since before you were born. And even if that's not the case, personal attacks aren't allowed here, nor are they useful for the conversation.

Why not? you have yet to make any actual real feedback but your "miracle coin is theoretically more efficient, and will somehow magically replace USD tomorrow"


Give me just two examples of what the fuck you claim to be a superior coin to all existing currencies? the coins I listed earlier (the list of competitors to ETH 2.0) are all way too inefficient to replace USD, and we already know ETH 2.0 is at the bottom of that list.)

You can spout all you want about theoretical crypto, but the market has a habit of choosing crap. - any idea how to fix that, and introduce new better Miracle Grow Crypto? Why not start your plan by explaining for the rest of us what exacrly you find so amazing about your chosen two miracle coins that its a given to replace all currency by next week?

Because, if you cant name any potentials, then you're just a heckler with no justification behind the wine
. I'll happily remove the name calling myself if you can school me on real crypto miracle Grow Coins right here, but I'm betting you're just going to keep heckling me with more empty replies out of the Anti-Crypto-troll handbook(TM)
 
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Man, ya'll are a trip.

When did I ever say ANY of that? What are you on about a magical coin that will replace USD tomorrow? Did I ever make that claim? @defaultluser

And when did I claim that bitcoin was going to be adopted @dragontamer? I said that adoption fixes volatility. Bitcoin's adoption rate is not an argument against that statement.

I don't know why I even come in here. You guys are too rabid to even have a logical conversation. Have fun. :toast:
 
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I said that adoption fixes volatility

Wouldn't this be relatively easy to prove by looking at 30-day volatility and comparing it with the number of BTC transactions?

I'm looking at these stats, and I'm not seeing volatility getting fixed as BTC's adaptation grew the past 10 years.


Was BTC mor or less volatile in 2013 or 2017? No.

Clearly, volatility has nothing to do with adoption.
 
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Guys you gota not attack him so much. I am by no means an expert on any economy although have been running my own business for 10 years now.

Look at what the dollar has done lately. Its caused massive inflated due to copious amounts of money printing.

My rates have gone up considerable because of it, not to mention consumer products, food, rent and the list goes on. My cash is becoming less and less every day. Cash is also a huge tax scam.

China is/has been working on a CBDC for quite some now. Why would they be doing that? Given that, a CBCD would be centralized where crypto atm is decentralized. But how does it work in El Salvador? Does this mean it has been centralized there? I'm unsure as Id like to visit there to see how it works/working.

CBDC: It’s effectively a way for the central bank to digitalize bank notes and coins in circulation. The Chinese market is already very advanced in cashless payments. The digital yuan would be a way to speed that process up.

It will be legal tender in China and no interest will be paid on it.

“The use of cash is decreasing. Eventually cash will be replaced by something in digital format. That is one of the big drivers behind this,” Yan Xiao, project lead for digital trade at the World Economic Forum, told CNBC.

Fan Yifei, deputy governor of the PBOC, said last year that there is a “pressing need to digitalize cash and coin” as producing and storing these currently is expensive. In an article in state-backed publication Yicai Global, Fan said cash and coins are not easy to use, they’re easy to counterfeit and because of their anonymity, could be used for illicit purposes.
 
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Look at what the dollar has done lately. Its caused massive inflated due to copious amounts of money printing.

That "massive amounts of dollar inflation" was measured at 1.4% in June, while Bitcoin is sitting at 30%+ inflation while cryptocoin supporters are claiming that BTC's way is somehow better.

And guess what? Gasoline has dropped by a whole $1+ in my area. So guess what happened to that inflation this month? A lot of that dollar inflation has gone away and fixed itself in a singular month.

Its ridiculous for one side to be complaining about a 1.4% chance in prices, when their own BTC (and all other cryptocoins) are in excess of 30%+ price changes in a month. Completely, unfathomably ridiculous. Its obvious favoritism and is basically a cult behavior.

Here's what I don't get. Why do you shit on the dollar when by all measurements, BTC is doing far, far, far, far, far, far worse? Are you trying to make me remind you how utterly crap the BTC markets have been in the past few months?
 
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A lot of that dollar inflation has gone away and fixed itself in a singular month.

How do you explain interest rates going up then? So far for us down under its 2% up and not stopping.
 
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How do you explain interest rates going up then?

Outback Bronze said:
Its caused massive inflated due to copious amounts of money printing.

I know you've claimed that you're not an expert in economics. But you really should know, you got economics fundamentally backwards. Interest rates going up removes money and lowers M1 money supply from the world.

If you wanted to increase the money supply, you drop interest rates and/or QE the market.

You're literally pointing out the Fed removing dollars from our economy, not printing money. Literally the opposite of your earlier claim.
 
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Yes I'm no expert in economics, but you are comparing a system that has been around for over two centuries over one that's only been around for just over one decade.

removing dollars from our economy,

Will they stop printing?
 
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I know you've claimed that you're not an expert in economics. But you really should know, you got economics fundamentally backwards. Interest rates going up removes money and lowers M1 money supply from the world.

If you wanted to increase the money supply, you drop interest rates and/or QE the market.

You're literally pointing out the Fed removing dollars from our economy, not printing money. Literally the opposite of your earlier claim.

Raising Fed Funds rates does not remove money from the economy. And actually, around 3%, it will add money. The Fed increased our M2 money supply by about 40% from 2020 through April of 2022.


How do you explain interest rates going up then? So far for us down under its 2% up and not stopping.

You can't talk about one currency vs another without looking at a foreign exchange rate. The USD has shot up in the past 9 months vs other currencies, that cushioned inflation in the US significantly. A lot of debt is payable in USD, so that is going to tend to support the USD. But all those currencies got hit by inflation.
 
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Raising Fed Funds rates does not remove money from the economy.

The effects of interest rate hikes on M1 money supply are well known. If you can't accept this basic fact, I'm not sure if there's much else to discuss. Its rather basic.


The money supply is already constricting due to the interest rates hikes. We can literally measure it. The opposite, lowering rates, causes the money supply to balloon and grow. We cut rates and grew money supply in 2020 due to COVID19, by dramatic amounts. But today, we're undoing that by constricting the money supply and beginning to return to normalcy.

Like I said earlier, the discussion point brought forward by Outback Bronze is the opposite of reality. He's got his argument mixed up. Now if he wants to revise his point now that I've pointed out how to look at, measure, and discuss the money supply, I'd be happy to let him. But these details are important to get right if we're really trying to make a monetary policy discussion.
 
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The effects of interest rate hikes on M1 money supply are well known. If you can't accept this basic fact, I'm not sure if there's much else to discuss. Its rather basic.


The money supply is already constricting due to the interest rates hikes. We can literally measure it. The opposite, lowering rates, causes the money supply to balloon and grow. We cut rates and grew money supply in 2020 due to COVID19, by dramatic amounts. But today, we're undoing that by constricting the money supply and beginning to return to normalcy.

What you are talking about is mostly checking/savings deposits. It has to do with the cash in circulation and is mostly relevant to gauging how much money consumers have on hand to spend. M2 is more broad and useful.

I should also throw in here, the Fed is not raising your interest rate. Consumer Interest rates are based on the 10Y treasury. Those went up long before the Fed started hiking in the US, and they started dropping in mid June when the first big 0.75% hike was done. They have in fact dropped 0.9% since then and the Fed has raised its rates 1.5% total.

You might want to think about why that is working backwards from the way you say.

Having said that, neither M1 nor M2 have much moved and remain massively inflated given the massive increases I noted earlier. M1 in particular is still 500% higher than in 2020.

1659657515154.png


1659657586809.png
 
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