• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

German Court Bans Vague Dates like "Coming Soon" in Marketing and Sales

Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
767 (0.27/day)
Location
Norway
System Name Games/internet/usage - Server - backup - HTPC2
Processor I7 5820k - AMD A8-5600K BE - I7 920 - A8-7600
Motherboard ASUS X99-A2 - Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4 - MSI x58 pro-e - Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI
Cooling custom water loop for cpu and gpus - CM - Arctic Cooling Freezer Xtreme r.2 - Noctua NH-U12P SE1366
Memory 16GiB Crucial Ballistix Sport 2666 MHz - 8GiB 1600MHz - 12 GiB corsair thing - 8GB 1866MHz - 8 GB
Video Card(s) 2x Radeon R9 290X CF 1100/1350 - HD 7560D - 2x Radeon HD6950 CF - A8 -7600
Storage Samsung XP941 500 GB - 60 GB SSD + 6 x HDD 4 TB in RAID 6 - 4 SSD and 2 HDD - 250 GB SSD
Display(s) Dell 3008WFP - Remote desktop - the Dell when in use - 55" TV screen
Case Caselabs Magnum M8 - Fractal Design Define R4 - Nanoxia DS 1 - Antec ISK 110 VESA
Audio Device(s) Toslink -> Shiit Modi 2 Uber -> Matrix m-stage -> HD650 - none - as main - HDMI out -> 5.1 system
Power Supply beQuiet dark power pro 1200W- corsair RM750x - Corsair AX850 - Antec 90 W pico power
Mouse Logitech G402 - remote desktop - Logitech G402 in use - Logitech K830
Keyboard Corsair K95 RGB - remote desktop - Corsair K95 RGB when in use - Logitech K830
Software Win 10 Pro - Win server 2012 essentials - Win 7 Pro - Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores Not high enough
Investment implies a return on investment and crowdfunding doesn't do that (exception being buying shares in a game at Fig). Crowdfunding is largely based on preorders.
The money spent on crowdfunding is not a purchase, and therefore not a preorder.

Also note the citation marks on the word investment?
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
25,560 (6.27/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Samsung SyncMaster T240 24" LCD (1920x1200 HDMI) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW 19" LCD (1440x900 VGA)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
The money spent on crowdfunding is not a purchase, and therefore not a preorder.
The $1 tier a lot of developers like to put in there is the only one that doesn't qualify as a preorder. Every tier that promises something for the money spent is a preorder.

Also note the citation marks on the word investment?
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/investment.asp
An investment is an asset or item acquired with the goal of generating income or appreciation. In an economic sense, an investment is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth. In finance, an investment is a monetary asset purchased with the idea that the asset will provide income in the future or will later be sold at a higher price for a profit.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
1,299 (0.39/day)
Location
Right where I want to be
System Name Ratchet
Processor Ryzen 3800X
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VII Formula
Cooling Ek Velocity
Memory F4-3600C16Q-32GTZNC
Video Card(s) SAPPHIRE NITRO+ Radeon RX 5700 XT
Storage 1TB WD M.2 SSD/ 2T WD SN750
Display(s) DELL AW3420DW / HP ZR24w
Case Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL
Audio Device(s) EVGA Nu Audio
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Gold 1000W
Mouse Corsair Scimitar/Glorious Model O-
Keyboard Corsair K95 Platinum
Software Windows 10 Pro
No more trouble than they're in any way (usually bankruptcy proceedings). I really don't see any value in this ruling because the specific case, should circumstances warrant it, will be litigated eventually anyway.
But this ruling subjects them to punitive action before the fact, and before any real damages. You might as well said that you see no value in speeding tickets because reckless drivers are going to wreck their vehicles be sued anyway,
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
25,560 (6.27/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Samsung SyncMaster T240 24" LCD (1920x1200 HDMI) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW 19" LCD (1440x900 VGA)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
But this ruling subjects them to punitive action before the fact, and before any real damages.
So how were they damaged? I can see right to speedy refund but preemptive punitive action is road best not travelled.

You might as well said that you see no value in speeding tickets because reckless drivers are going to wreck their vehicles be sued anyway,
The national speed limit was created to conserve fuel. The only places where speed limits existed before that were hazard areas (e.g. reverse cambered curves, tight curves, school zones, etc.). Speed limits are created by law and enforced by law enforcers. This was created by a German court enforced by the German court system. See how it's backwards?
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
1,299 (0.39/day)
Location
Right where I want to be
System Name Ratchet
Processor Ryzen 3800X
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VII Formula
Cooling Ek Velocity
Memory F4-3600C16Q-32GTZNC
Video Card(s) SAPPHIRE NITRO+ Radeon RX 5700 XT
Storage 1TB WD M.2 SSD/ 2T WD SN750
Display(s) DELL AW3420DW / HP ZR24w
Case Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL
Audio Device(s) EVGA Nu Audio
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Gold 1000W
Mouse Corsair Scimitar/Glorious Model O-
Keyboard Corsair K95 Platinum
Software Windows 10 Pro
So how were they damaged? I can see right to speedy refund but preemptive punitive action is road best not travelled.
Let's use the Developers of Star Citizen, who let's face are selling empty promises that individuals have sunk anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousands into a product that may never come because it's in delay/coming soon limbo. To jump into the hypothetical and things finally catch up to them, i.e. people stop giving them money to make a game and they go insolvent. Now we all know these patrons are going to be very lucky if they see any of their money because in bankruptcy proceedings those people will be at the very bottom of the totem pole.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
25,560 (6.27/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Samsung SyncMaster T240 24" LCD (1920x1200 HDMI) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW 19" LCD (1440x900 VGA)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
People who have requested a refund from Cloud Imperium Games have gotten a refund. The vast majority of people are fine with continuing to wait.
 

eisberg

New Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2018
Messages
1 (0.00/day)
The $1 tier a lot of developers like to put in there is the only one that doesn't qualify as a preorder. Every tier that promises something for the money spent is a preorder.


https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/investment.asp

Incorrect, Crowdfunding is not the same thing as pre-ordering, you are only funding an idea, and if that idea comes to fruition you'll get a reward for it.
This ruling will do nothing towards Crowdfunding, because legally they are not the same thing as pre-orders. Crowdfunding goes under the terms of donations, unless it is a loan based crowdfunding or an equity based crowdfunding. Some people, like you, misunderstanding what you are actually paying money for doesn't change the facts about what it is or what it isn't, and what it isn't is a pre-order, it is not even a purchase of the product itself.

People who have requested a refund from Cloud Imperium Games have gotten a refund. The vast majority of people are fine with continuing to wait.
Since January 2018, the only people who got refunds are people who requested a refund with in 14 days of them giving money to CIG. Anybody outside of that 14 days have not received a refund since since Jan 2018
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
25,560 (6.27/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Samsung SyncMaster T240 24" LCD (1920x1200 HDMI) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW 19" LCD (1440x900 VGA)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Incorrect, Crowdfunding is not the same thing as pre-ordering, you are only funding an idea, and if that idea comes to fruition you'll get a reward for it.
This ruling will do nothing towards Crowdfunding, because legally they are not the same thing as pre-orders. Crowdfunding goes under the terms of donations, unless it is a loan based crowdfunding or an equity based crowdfunding. Some people, like you, misunderstanding what you are actually paying money for doesn't change the facts about what it is or what it isn't, and what it isn't is a pre-order, it is not even a purchase of the product itself.
Making a pledge towards a crowdsourced project is effectively a contract that is enforceable by the courts. A preorder is also a contract.


Since January 2018, the only people who got refunds are people who requested a refund with in 14 days of them giving money to CIG. Anybody outside of that 14 days have not received a refund since since Jan 2018
Source?
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
1,299 (0.39/day)
Location
Right where I want to be
System Name Ratchet
Processor Ryzen 3800X
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VII Formula
Cooling Ek Velocity
Memory F4-3600C16Q-32GTZNC
Video Card(s) SAPPHIRE NITRO+ Radeon RX 5700 XT
Storage 1TB WD M.2 SSD/ 2T WD SN750
Display(s) DELL AW3420DW / HP ZR24w
Case Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL
Audio Device(s) EVGA Nu Audio
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Gold 1000W
Mouse Corsair Scimitar/Glorious Model O-
Keyboard Corsair K95 Platinum
Software Windows 10 Pro
People who have requested a refund from Cloud Imperium Games have gotten a refund. The vast majority of people are fine with continuing to wait.
It was not an easy process for the people getting their refunds and since then CIG have changed their policy.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
7,653 (3.26/day)
Great news, this is a good, common sense ruling.
Agreed. We desperately need this stateside.
Now, if that disastrous brexit doesn't happen, it will apply to sunny Britain too.
You started out good and end with that. "Brexit" is a win for the UK. Even if you don't agree, opinion is irrelevant, the voters spoke, that matter is concluded and it is now done, but I digress..
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
12,088 (2.69/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Intel i9 9900k
Motherboard ASRock Z390 Taichi
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory G.SKILL TridentZ Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 @ 13-13-13-33-2T
Video Card(s) EVGA GTX 1080 FTW2
Storage Mushkin Pilot-E 2TB NVMe SSD w/ EKWB M.2 Heatsink
Display(s) LG 32GK850G-B 1440p 32" AMVA Panel G-Sync 144hz Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) Onboard TOSLINK to Schiit Modi MB to Schiit Asgard 2 Amp to AKG K7XX Ruby Red Massdrop Headphones
Power Supply EVGA SuperNova T2 850W 80Plus Titanium
Mouse ROCCAT Kone EMP
Keyboard WASD CODE 104-Key w/ Cherry MX Green Keyswitches, Doubleshot Vortex PBT White Transluscent Keycaps
Software Windows 10 x64 Enterprise... yes, it's legit.
They're always preorders
I think even their legalese is very careful to point out they are not in fact, preorders, but sponsorships with possible bonuses.

You started out good and end with that. "Brexit" is a win for the UK. Even if you don't agree, opinion is irrelevant, the voters spoke, that matter is concluded and it is now done, but I digress..
Actaully, what he said is true. If brexit is somehow avoided (and yes, it could be legally reversed) it would apply to the UK.

The following political tangent here is on you.
 

qubit

Overclocked quantum bit
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
15,925 (3.63/day)
Location
Quantum Well UK
System Name Quantumville™
Processor Intel Core i7-2700K at stock (hits 5 gees+ easily)
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 16GB (4 x 4GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 PC3-12800 C9 1600MHz)
Video Card(s) Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme Edition
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 256GB | WD Green 4TB
Display(s) BenQ XL2720Z | Asus VG278HE (both 27", 144Hz, 3D Vision 2, 1080p)
Case Cooler Master HAF 922
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty PCIe
Power Supply Corsair HX 850W v1
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Agreed. We desperately need this stateside.

You started out good and end with that. "Brexit" is a win for the UK. Even if you don't agree, opinion is irrelevant, the voters spoke, that matter is concluded and it is now done, but I digress..
Err, no. We can't discuss it here though. It would have to be the lounge or pm if you really wanna talk about it.
 
Last edited:

Goloith

New Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2018
Messages
1 (0.00/day)
RIP Star Citizen if you don't get an official date posted.

People who have requested a refund from Cloud Imperium Games have gotten a refund. The vast majority of people are fine with continuing to wait.
Refunds on purchases older than 14 days stopped in February of this year actually.
 
Top