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Gigabyte Has a Crippled VGA Slot: MSI

Mussels

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#26
Misleading? How is it misleading if they list it on the specs of the motherboard openly? This is nothing new in the motherboard industry, you are acting like this is the first time this has happened.
i think you're getting the context of my message wrong. I didnt say "lying" or "hiding" i said misleading. People who look at these boards without the box (OEM systems, for example) will just assume its a 16x slot.

If they didnt want to mislead anyone, these boards would be like their other ones and use open 4x connectors.
 
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#27
mATX boards are commonly used for prebuilt computers bought at best buy and wal-mart, which wouldnt have much need of 4x+. Have we even met the requirements of x4? I bet if you were to test it, you would find that there would be no performance decrease with our current available cards. Also, mATX boards are rarely used as performance boards, rather as pre-built and HTPC only.
 

Mussels

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#29
mATX boards are commonly used for prebuilt computers bought at best buy and wal-mart, which wouldnt have much need of 4x+. Have we even met the requirements of x4? I bet if you were to test it, you would find that there would be no performance decrease with our current available cards. Also, mATX boards are rarely used as performance boards, rather as pre-built and HTPC only.
every card from an 8600GT and up has a performance hit on 4x. people HAVE tested it.

matx boards are quite commonly used in LAN PC's, due to the compact size. I have one, my brother has one, one of my housemates have one.

we hit the requirements for 16x with the dual GPU Cards on 1.1 (8x to each GPU) so they went 2.0 -if a single high end GPU Needs 8x in 2.0, what makes you think even the mid range GPU's (which arent really that much different, in nvidia they're all G92 anyway) will require less than that?
 

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#31
It's pretty funny when other companies try to pick on ASUS motherboards . . . ASUS has been reliable and solid for decades now in what they offer on their boards, and the board's capabilities . . .


but, damn, though . . . they'll put some bells & whistles on their setups without hesitation. If anyone can figure out how to offer an oboard coffee-maker, toaster, and milk dispenser . . . ASUS will be the first to do so, guranteed.
you should have quilifyed that, ASUS makes good Intel motherboards, their amd boards are, to be kind, less then steller, they have non-functional or missing features in bios such as TRFC, TRFC is IMPORTANT on amd systems, being able to properly set your slots for the ram in use can be the diffrance between being able to run you ram at 800 and 1200, my axeram kits need 105ns for 1066 and up, my wintek kits run at 127ns at anything above 830, asus trfc IF IN BIOS has NO EFFECT, asus's bios dept varifyed this and offered no solution, they said "you could try diffrent ram or only use the 2 outter slots" the outter slots where set at 127 or looser mind you, the first slot at 75, the 2nd slot at 105 and the other 2 where looser.

tested this on 5 diffrent asus nf5 boards, all of them had the same crap settings locked in bios and non-functional trfc settings......worthless!!!!

they dont fix their audio drivers for the analog devices sound chips they use, dispite ADI having patched them years back to fix the KNOWN issues in the asus 2k/xp/2k3/x64pro drivers......


i wont own another asus AMD board, just not worth the money you spend.

mATX boards are commonly used for prebuilt computers bought at best buy and wal-mart, which wouldnt have much need of 4x+. Have we even met the requirements of x4? I bet if you were to test it, you would find that there would be no performance decrease with our current available cards. Also, mATX boards are rarely used as performance boards, rather as pre-built and HTPC only.

as others have said, even pci-e 4x in pci-e 2.o spec holds back anything but the lowist of addin cards, would be fine for a 1300/8400 class card but wouldnt be good enought for a true mid ragen card like the 4670.
 

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#32
i think x4 slot offers enough bandwidth to fully utilize all but the highest end gpu anyway. i dont see a problem. as long as its labeled correctly, if on the other hand giga states x16 and its not, then we have a problem.

for example, i have a asus p5n-e sli board i fold with. installed are a 8800gts 320mb(g80) card and a 9600gso. the board runs x8 on the 8800gts and x4 on the 9600gso. i get very near the same points per day per card as when i run them in single card mode at the full x16. keep in mind also this is a pci express v1 board. so the gigabytes in question are running pci express v2 which theoretically is double the bandwidth as the v1's.

as long as it is clearly stated in the tech specs, and keeps cost down. it is perfectly fine for them to do this. just my opinion though.
the cards will only use the bandwith necessary to get the job done, so you theoretically never see the full potential of the x16 slots, thats why AMD has been running Crossfire in 8x instead of 16 because the cards dont need all that bandwidth, atleast in the past few Xfire gens.
 

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#33
why is this news?

This is one slide from a presentation meant for OEM businesses with computing needs vastly different from you guys in your "OVERCLOCK TO THE MAX ONE ONEONE" clique.

"Gigabyte has a serious design issue on all their Intel G41 / G43 / G43 based mainboards. They run their primary PCI-Express x16 VGA slot at fake x4 speed..."
Out of context, this statement is a lie.
In context of a comparison of 3 models Gigabyte produces to MSI's products, it's true.

The PCI-E 16x slots are clearly specified to run at 4x.
Gigabyte offers full speed PCI-E 16x slots in its other boards besides those 3 models singled out in this slide.


Lets be on the look out for the TPU headline about Larabee that shits all over Intel for using Pentium 2 technology in a 2009 graphics card - you really missed the big picture here TPU.
 
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#34
like someone confess in church , but i like this better than lies
 

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#35
there's logical explanation for these...

if you insert a card (graphics or not) in the PCIe x16 slot (GEN2 x16), then the onboard graphics is disabled automatically.... this is the chipset's (G41/43/45) limitation...

GIGABYTE board does not suffer from this limitation because the PCIe x16 (electrically x4) is not attached to northbridge (G41/43/45)... it's attached to soughtbridge (ICH7/10(R))... and that's why it has "only" x4 bandwith...

check out GA-EG45M-DS2H block diagram for more info...

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/729/blockdiagrambyj4.png

these boards are for HTPC/office use... so haveing no full x16 slot is no real issue...



edit:
i would also like to point out that modern AMD (ATI) / NVIDIA chipsets does not suffer from such limitations... so you can plug-in full x16 discrete VGA and have you're igp working alongside it, providing additional display support or hybrid crossfire/sli graphics...
 
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#36


^ 9800GX2 with PCi-E 2.0.
It'd be worse on 1.1/1.0 boards. There are cards out there that would need more than this in todays games, for sure (GTX 280/260, 4870 etc)

as nathanfake said these boards arent for gaming use. I think the backlash is that simply, people are sick to death of these misleading motherboards. Most manufacturers have done it, even my board has 16x/4x when in crossfire, despite the second slot appearing full length (which to most people, means 16x)
 
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#37
This is blown out of proportions , punny little MSI is just a bug in the face of Asus and Gigabyte.
I bought a premium MSI MB almost 7 years ago and after 1 year of use the MB started to crash my system , they woudln't give me another saying it works for them , then i go on forums and find out most of the people are having this problem and MSI refuses to give warranty , it was some via KT600 chipset but i don't remember the MB name exactly , anyways very bad experience with MSI.
The problem was any time the system started to consume more power by proccessing something more than a movie i heard a shhhhh sound from the motherboard and the computer freezed , voltage regulators problems people where saying.
If i was to make a top of the MB company the first 2 that comes to mind are always Asus the first and gigabyte the second , but i tend to buy gigabyte because they seem more stable and better overclock on the mainstream and some cheap MB's from low end , well not so cheap but a bit cheap.
In the mainstream Asus kind of sucks with price and quality where gigabyte is top notch , gigabyte p35 DS3L and p31DS3L are some cheap and very overclockable MB's , let' see this from punny little MSI , in my country they are expensive and badddd , bad overclock , bad quality , not very bad but bad compared to Asus and gigabyte.
 
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#38
Gigabyte:
"Pay 100%, get 25% performance"
 
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#39


^ 9800GX2 with PCi-E 2.0.
It'd be worse on 1.1/1.0 boards. There are cards out there that would need more than this in todays games, for sure (GTX 280/260, 4870 etc)

as nathanfake said these boards arent for gaming use. I think the backlash is that simply, people are sick to death of these misleading motherboards. Most manufacturers have done it, even my board has 16x/4x when in crossfire, despite the second slot appearing full length (which to most people, means 16x)
yes it does take a hit in the x4 config. but i ask, is 89 fps enough to play that game at max settings?
 

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#40
as others have said, even pci-e 4x in pci-e 2.o spec holds back anything but the lowist of addin cards, would be fine for a 1300/8400 class card but wouldnt be good enought for a true mid ragen card like the 4670.
According to the tom's review, we are barely seeing the effects on a HD3850, the only game that had any affect is FSX, but most other modern games will not even show a difference on the HD3850 or HD4670. For most users PCI-E x4 2.0 is enough for mid-range cards, I wouldn't put a high end card in one of those slots, but most people are not going to be putting high end cards in budget motherboards.

i think you're getting the context of my message wrong. I didnt say "lying" or "hiding" i said misleading. People who look at these boards without the box (OEM systems, for example) will just assume its a 16x slot.

If they didnt want to mislead anyone, these boards would be like their other ones and use open 4x connectors.
True, but most other board manufactures do the same as Gigabyte. Most make their PCI-E x4 slots PCI-E x16. Look as most of the P35 boards, the first slot was x16, but the second was x4. Both looked like x16 slots though.

It is mainly a compatibility thing, if people open the case and see a PCI-E x4 slot, it is hard to tell if it is open ended or not, most would assume that it is a regular PCI-E x4 slot, and assume they can't put a graphics card in it at all.



^ 9800GX2 with PCi-E 2.0.
It'd be worse on 1.1/1.0 boards. There are cards out there that would need more than this in todays games, for sure (GTX 280/260, 4870 etc)

as nathanfake said these boards arent for gaming use. I think the backlash is that simply, people are sick to death of these misleading motherboards. Most manufacturers have done it, even my board has 16x/4x when in crossfire, despite the second slot appearing full length (which to most people, means 16x)
I think the biggest backlash is that there really is no reason that this slot shouldn't be x16. The lanes are available to use, Gigabyte just decided not to use them all. On your board, there simply aren't enough PCI-E lanes to make the second slot anything more than x4.

Gigabyte:
"Pay 100%, get 25% performance"
Actually, according to the tests, it is more like 50% of the performance on a very small number of games. It is more along the lines of 80-90% of the performance in most situations.
 

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#41
This is blown out of proportions , punny little MSI is just a bug in the face of Asus and Gigabyte.
I bought a premium MSI MB almost 7 years ago and after 1 year of use the MB started to crash my system , they woudln't give me another saying it works for them , then i go on forums and find out most of the people are having this problem and MSI refuses to give warranty , it was some via KT600 chipset but i don't remember the MB name exactly , anyways very bad experience with MSI.
The problem was any time the system started to consume more power by proccessing something more than a movie i heard a shhhhh sound from the motherboard and the computer freezed , voltage regulators problems people where saying.
If i was to make a top of the MB company the first 2 that comes to mind are always Asus the first and gigabyte the second , but i tend to buy gigabyte because they seem more stable and better overclock on the mainstream and some cheap MB's from low end , well not so cheap but a bit cheap.
In the mainstream Asus kind of sucks with price and quality where gigabyte is top notch , gigabyte p35 DS3L and p31DS3L are some cheap and very overclockable MB's , let' see this from punny little MSI , in my country they are expensive and badddd , bad overclock , bad quality , not very bad but bad compared to Asus and gigabyte.
you know GB is known for having shit options for oc'ing in low end parts right? MSI is a good brand i have owned several of them and put them thru hell without any issues. lowend MSI>low end GB.

EVERYONE here has complained about GB. they are not they "greatest" of brands at all

oh and MSI is so not a bug compared to the other two its a huge company
 
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#42
there's logical explanation for these...

if you insert a card (graphics or not) in the PCIe x16 slot (GEN2 x16), then the onboard graphics is disabled automatically.... this is the chipset's (G41/43/45) limitation...

GIGABYTE board does not suffer from this limitation because the PCIe x16 (electrically x4) is not attached to northbridge (G41/43/45)... it's attached to soughtbridge (ICH7/10(R))... and that's why it has "only" x4 bandwith...

check out GA-EG45M-DS2H block diagram for more info...

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/729/blockdiagrambyj4.png

these boards are for HTPC/office use... so haveing no full x16 slot is no real issue...



edit:
i would also like to point out that modern AMD (ATI) / NVIDIA chipsets does not suffer from such limitations... so you can plug-in full x16 discrete VGA and have you're igp working alongside it, providing additional display support or hybrid crossfire/sli graphics...
Just wanted to quote this guy.

If you did read the reviews about 780G chipset months ago when it just released, GIGABYTE and Asus were the only one who has 780G chipset with 4 phases power+ that could handle 125 Watt cpu (Phenom). All other branch failed.

And the 780G board that could OC its onboard vga better than the rest.

GIGABYTE > MSI in Asian markets, that's why they pulled this bullshit out. Oh! And I think in US market too, it's hard to see overclocker using MSI boards on most forum.

Asus and GIGABYTE overcrowed MSI boards.
 

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#43
Just wanted to quote this guy.

If you did read the reviews about 780G chipset months ago when it just released, GIGABYTE and Asus were the only one who has 780G chipset with 4 phases power+ that could handle 125 Watt cpu (Phenom). All other branch failed.

And the 780G board that could OC its onboard vga better than the rest.

GIGABYTE > MSI in Asian markets, that's why they pulled this bullshit out. Oh! And I think in US market too, it's hard to see overclocker using MSI boards on most forum.

Asus and GIGABYTE overcrowed MSI boards.
Depends man, and it is true Asus and GB did put out first 780g boards, hell is a early adopter of the s2h, US market hmm I think Asus, leads with MSI picking up, from most of my experiences I don't see a whole lot of people using gigabyte boards in the US, I dunno maybe that depends on the region.

I wouldn't say all other branch failed, heck there was only foxconn and biostar at that point...who were only handling 780g.
 
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#44
Just wanted to quote this guy.

If you did read the reviews about 780G chipset months ago when it just released, GIGABYTE and Asus were the only one who has 780G chipset with 4 phases power+ that could handle 125 Watt cpu (Phenom). All other branch failed.

And the 780G board that could OC its onboard vga better than the rest.

GIGABYTE > MSI in Asian markets, that's why they pulled this bullshit out. Oh! And I think in US market too, it's hard to see overclocker using MSI boards on most forum.

Asus and GIGABYTE overcrowed MSI boards.
Damn right man , i don't know where people on techpowerup forums live but every hardcore forum i see and every hardcore overclocker i talk too and read about they use Asus and Gigabyte , mainly Asus but some go gigabyte.
Not heard of to many people using MSI unlles they are sponsored by them or some organized event by MSI , i guess they want a piece of that market too but they should prove they have something good.
This is not the first time people from here blame Gigabyte so much for something they didn't do , if they inform you it will work at x4 what's the problem ? you can get a better one if you want gigabyte or you can buy a MSI :) .
Last time with the Asus scandal people still blamed gigabyte but from reviews and just all around knowledge everyone knew Gigabyte has the better power savings and Asus just wanted to have that extra that gigabyte had , actually there are numerous things these bugs like MSI and Asus are copying from gigabyte , they didn't used all solid capacitors on MB's until gigabyte did this , they didn't go so far with power savings until gigabyte did this.
Well this is competition , they copy every good move you make but we consumers must know who copyes everything and who is actually moving this industry forward.
I can't speak for all MSI products , they probably do a lot of good things (laptops , lcd's , graphic cards .... etc.) but the motherboards segment are just nobodys for informed people , of course the brainwashed TV comercials and we trust in the "brand" people will buy MSI because they heard something or because of the so many stickers with features , never the informed people because in all segements of price Asus and Gigabyte always has something better , if not gigabyte because it has some x4 slot than Asus and still MSI is a nobody.
 

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#45
I have no problems with my Gigabyte board, runs OCd 24/7 (1600Mhz) and no crashes. It would be nice if people don't generalize whole brand with 3 low end motherboards..

They say clearly on the product pages "1 x PCI Express x4 slot (Refer to the VGA device support list.)" for two of the motherboard and "1 x PCI Express x16 slot, running at x4 (Refer to the graphics cards support list.)". If they didn't mention that, then the comments on this thread would be justified.
 
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#46

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#47
people are missing a few things here.

4x PCI-E 2.0 = 8x PCI-E 1.0

however, if its on a PCI-E 1.0 or 1.1 card, the hit is going to be bigger. tests with a 7600GT, or x1800 would have a lot more performance problems.

its not as simple as it seems.
 
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#48
shock horror a mobo co that says what it is on the box :eek:

yea it could of been better but if thats not the market its aimed at why no try to save some money/power????

iv had asus, giga and msi and had issues with all 3, and they have fixxed them too but asus was the harder to get sorted. imo the bigger they get the less they care.

if people dont do the research they will end up paying twice as much for a rebadged g92 :roll:
 

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#49
people are missing a few things here.

4x PCI-E 2.0 = 8x PCI-E 1.0

however, if its on a PCI-E 1.0 or 1.1 card, the hit is going to be bigger. tests with a 7600GT, or x1800 would have a lot more performance problems.

its not as simple as it seems.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-scaling-analysis,1572-8.html

Not really, even with PCI-E 1.1 slots with PCI-E 1.1 cards, the x1900XTX barely shows any performance loss going down to x4 in games. so the 7600GT and x1800 wouldn't really have any performance problem.

The 8800GTS definitely takes a bigger hit though.
 
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#50
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-scaling-analysis,1572-8.html

Not really, even with PCI-E 1.1 slots with PCI-E 1.1 cards, the x1900XTX barely shows any performance loss going down to x4 in games. so the 7600GT and x1800 wouldn't really have any performance problem.

The 8800GTS definitely takes a bigger hit though.
Yeah so pretty much this mobo is good for basic system builds and nothing higher end. Which really isn't a big because other companies will just fill this need of higher end mobos.