• We've upgraded our forums. Please post any issues/requests in this thread.

Havok Launches Next Generation Physics Engine

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,287 (5.51/day)
Likes
10,395
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 4790K@4.6GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z97 Extreme6
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR3-1866 9-10-9-27
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Corsair 650D Black
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#26
I can't tell the difference at all. In fact, when enabled physics processing regardless of havoc or physx, I can only notice the difference in the game if I look for it. Physics processing is pretty light on both camps unless you are using hardware accelerated PhysX. Unfortunately, you can only do that with NVIDIA but it does look/feel much better. At the same time, I feel like I've been scammed after buying a game that screams "look at our awesome physics processing built into the game" then realize I have to have NVIDIA graphics to really get it. It's just not a good business practice. People just want the stuff advertised to work.

With this improved engine, hopefully it will be much better, I can see Havok taking over as the new standard. Seriously, developers will jump for this if it works like they claimed. Why would you choose a standard that shuts out half your potential customers.
Again, it doesn't shut out half the customers. The software solution, which is used most, works on all platforms.

The only thing that is going to make Havok become the new standard is if it can truly provide much better visuals than software PhysX, and that is yet to be seen in real world use. We'll have to wait for some new game to come out that actually use the new engine before we can say it is really a better solution than PhysX.
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
17 (0.01/day)
Likes
2
#27
Well, this is interesting... considering AMD's "nicer" performance on multi-core applications VS Intel (on i5 vs 8xxx), won't this actually help AMD overall in game performance and benchmarks?
I mean, new Haswell i5 models seem to be the same quad-core/quad-thread... VS... the "octa" FX-83xx models that are getting a bit of advantage on high core-dependent games...
Unless Intel plans to push gamers to buy the i7 models instead... getting people to upgrade to the lower i7's for an extra bit of cash.

This all depends on how much the developers will adopt it (and Haswell "horsepower"), but if they do, this seems a good opportunity for AMD... if they could get some lower TDP cpus out there, and if they could maintain and advantage on "multi-core" performance, they could finally have a very nice flag to wave out there and also force Intel to drop the lower i7 prices a bit in response.

Did u just come from AMD forums to hijack the topic? On that note, Intel has no competition from AMD in terms of CPU power.

On this new engine from Havok (that's my actual nickname for a long time in the internet media hehe) I hope we see lots of game devs that adopt this VS nvidia proprietary physx (I own one but i prefer an outsider company to provide for both camps) and get us some nice perfomance driven, high detail physx (see Mafia II from 2k, quite poorly optimized).
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
4,988 (1.76/day)
Likes
1,553
Location
Manchester uk
System Name Quad GT evo V
Processor FX8350 @ 4.8ghz1.525c NB2.64ghz Ht2.84ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte 990X Gaming
Cooling 360EK extreme 360Tt rad all push/pull, cpu,NB/Vrm blocks all EK
Memory Corsair vengeance 32Gb @1333 cas9
Video Card(s) Rx vega 64 waterblockedEK + Rx580 waterblockedEK
Storage samsung 840(250), WD 1Tb+2Tb +3Tbgrn 1tb hybrid
Display(s) Samsung uea28"850R 4k freesync, samsung 40" 1080p
Case Custom(modded) thermaltake Kandalf
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup
Power Supply corsair 1000Rmx
Mouse CM optane
Keyboard CM optane
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 15.69K best overall sandra so far
#28
Again, it doesn't shut out half the customers. The software solution, which is used most, works on all platforms.

The only thing that is going to make Havok become the new standard is if it can truly provide much better visuals than software PhysX, and that is yet to be seen in real world use. We'll have to wait for some new game to come out that actually use the new engine before we can say it is really a better solution than PhysX.
Most of the eye candy uses for physx (the ones I like for eg) req a gpu to use in any useful way so he's quite right about a lot of people missing out on features due to proprietary one make bs, hence im with him... physx is bad , works ok not great witj a gt240 solely for it too so clearly not that efficient an api , tress havoc or bullet ftw imho
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,419 (1.18/day)
Likes
1,333
#29
Again, it doesn't shut out half the customers. The software solution, which is used most, works on all platforms.

The only thing that is going to make Havok become the new standard is if it can truly provide much better visuals than software PhysX, and that is yet to be seen in real world use. We'll have to wait for some new game to come out that actually use the new engine before we can say it is really a better solution than PhysX.
Borderlands 2 PhysX.
Shooting at cloth flags and having particles fly = Fail.
Liquid effects were good but ran on low ?
PhysX set to low were extremely basic like anything else but High it was exagerated.

The game engine/physics has to be combine more then it is now to take advange of elements.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
4,357 (1.91/day)
Likes
1,074
Processor Intel Core i7 3770k @ 4.3GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V LK
Memory 16GB(2x8) DDR3@2133MHz 1.5v Patriot
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce GTX 1080 GAMING X 8G
Storage 59.63GB Samsung SSD 830 + 465.76 GB Samsung SSD 840 EVO + 2TB Hitachi + 300GB Velociraptor HDD
Display(s) Acer Predator X34 3440x1440@100Hz G-Sync
Case NZXT PHANTOM410-BK
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Titanium PCIe
Power Supply Corsair 850W
Mouse Anker
Software Win 10 Pro - 64bit
Benchmark Scores 30FPS in NFS:Rivals
#30
Mass Effect 2 and 3 have really good and discreet software implementation of Physx and with no slowdowns on AMD cards....
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,287 (5.51/day)
Likes
10,395
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 4790K@4.6GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z97 Extreme6
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR3-1866 9-10-9-27
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Corsair 650D Black
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#31
Most of the eye candy uses for physx (the ones I like for eg) req a gpu to use in any useful way so he's quite right about a lot of people missing out on features due to proprietary one make bs, hence im with him... physx is bad , works ok not great witj a gt240 solely for it too so clearly not that efficient an api , tress havoc or bullet ftw imho
Well then I hate to break it to you, but Havok isn't capable of the eye candy that you like, so move along, nothing for you to see in this thread.

Borderlands 2 PhysX.
Shooting at cloth flags and having particles fly = Fail.
Liquid effects were good but ran on low ?
PhysX set to low were extremely basic like anything else but High it was exagerated.

The game engine/physics has to be combine more then it is now to take advange of elements.
It all comes down to the implementation. Hardware accelerated PhysX isn't that great, it adds nothing to the game that we can't live without. Software PhysX offers a lot to a game developer, and is why it is used in so many games.

Mass Effect 2 and 3 have really good and discreet software implementation of Physx and with no slowdowns on AMD cards....
The software implementation never has a slowdown on AMD cards.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
4,988 (1.76/day)
Likes
1,553
Location
Manchester uk
System Name Quad GT evo V
Processor FX8350 @ 4.8ghz1.525c NB2.64ghz Ht2.84ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte 990X Gaming
Cooling 360EK extreme 360Tt rad all push/pull, cpu,NB/Vrm blocks all EK
Memory Corsair vengeance 32Gb @1333 cas9
Video Card(s) Rx vega 64 waterblockedEK + Rx580 waterblockedEK
Storage samsung 840(250), WD 1Tb+2Tb +3Tbgrn 1tb hybrid
Display(s) Samsung uea28"850R 4k freesync, samsung 40" 1080p
Case Custom(modded) thermaltake Kandalf
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup
Power Supply corsair 1000Rmx
Mouse CM optane
Keyboard CM optane
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 15.69K best overall sandra so far
#32
Well then I hate to break it to you, but Havok isn't capable of the eye candy that you like, so move along, nothing for you to see in this threads.



It all comes down to the implementation. Hardware accelerated PhysX isn't that great, it adds nothing to the game that we can't live without. Software PhysX offers a lot to a game developer, and is why it is used in so many games.



The software implementation never has a slowdown on AMD cards.
Ill read what I want move along hmmff indeed
I am aware of what has been possible , im just optimistic for what could be possible ..
You don't know any more than I do about this new havok and yet nay say away ? It Might be good ya neva knooooo.
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,287 (5.51/day)
Likes
10,395
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 4790K@4.6GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z97 Extreme6
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR3-1866 9-10-9-27
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Corsair 650D Black
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#33
Ill read what I want move along hmmff indeed
I am aware of what has been possible , im just optimistic for what could be possible ..
You don't know any more than I do about this new havok and yet nay say away ? It Might be good ya neva knooooo.
Be as optimistic as you want, I've seen the tech demo they put out and it isn't anything amazing.
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,419 (1.18/day)
Likes
1,333
#34
Be as optimistic as you want, I've seen the tech demo they put out and it isn't anything amazing.
:confused:

It all comes down to the implementation. Hardware accelerated PhysX isn't that great, it adds nothing to the game that we can't live without. Software PhysX offers a lot to a game developer, and is why it is used in so many games.
If your judging by implemintation. Havok is above PhysX. Its used more widely.
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2004
Messages
12,374 (2.56/day)
Likes
5,818
Location
Europe\Slovenia
System Name Dark Silence 2
Processor Intel Core i7 5820K @ 4.5 GHz (1.15V)
Motherboard MSI X99A Gaming 7
Cooling Cooler Master Nepton 120XL
Memory 32 GB DDR4 Kingston HyperX Fury 2400 MHz @ 2666 MHz
Video Card(s) AORUS GeForce GTX 1080Ti 11GB (1950/11000 OC Mode)
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 2TB SSD (3D V-NAND)
Display(s) ASUS VG248QE 144Hz 1ms (DisplayPort)
Case Corsair Carbide 330R Titanium
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound BlasterX AE-5 + Altec Lansing MX5021 (HiFi capacitors and OPAMP upgrade)
Power Supply BeQuiet! Dark Power Pro 11 750W
Mouse Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum
Keyboard Cherry Stream XT Black
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit (Fall Creators Update)
#35
Plus, for Havok you don't need some stupid extra software. Which if you play games decades later as well, means a lot (questionable PhysX software compatibility). With built in physics, they'll always work right as they are part of the engine.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
4,988 (1.76/day)
Likes
1,553
Location
Manchester uk
System Name Quad GT evo V
Processor FX8350 @ 4.8ghz1.525c NB2.64ghz Ht2.84ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte 990X Gaming
Cooling 360EK extreme 360Tt rad all push/pull, cpu,NB/Vrm blocks all EK
Memory Corsair vengeance 32Gb @1333 cas9
Video Card(s) Rx vega 64 waterblockedEK + Rx580 waterblockedEK
Storage samsung 840(250), WD 1Tb+2Tb +3Tbgrn 1tb hybrid
Display(s) Samsung uea28"850R 4k freesync, samsung 40" 1080p
Case Custom(modded) thermaltake Kandalf
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup
Power Supply corsair 1000Rmx
Mouse CM optane
Keyboard CM optane
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 15.69K best overall sandra so far
#36
Be as optimistic as you want, I've seen the tech demo they put out and it isn't anything amazing.
And anyone else's implementation is? Rigght ..
Ill just go sit in a corner dreaming, give me a shout when you're nvidia overlords have cracked it in ten years with the ps5 then eh ta.
 
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
605 (0.26/day)
Likes
257
Processor Intel
Motherboard Asus
Cooling Thermaltake/Noctua
Memory Crucial
Video Card(s) Nvidia
Storage Samsung/Western Digital
Display(s) Samsung
Case Thermaltake
Audio Device(s) On Board
Power Supply Chieftec
Software Windows 10 x64
#37
It looks like it was the one previewed at the PS4 announcement




JINXS!!!
Probably we will see Havok GPU physics again during PS5 launch. Oh wait, we won't. :laugh:

Mass Effect 2 and 3 have really good and discreet software implementation of Physx and with no slowdowns on AMD cards....
Also Spec Ops: The Line. (not only sand)

Plus, for Havok you don't need some stupid extra software. Which if you play games decades later as well, means a lot (questionable PhysX software compatibility). With built in physics, they'll always work right as they are part of the engine.
So maybe you wish to remove GPU drivers to avoid drivers crashes, game optimisation problems?

-----------
Basically how I see Physx vs Havok.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
6,593 (2.25/day)
Likes
5,826
Location
Glasgow - home of formal profanity
System Name New Ho'Ryzen
Processor Ryzen 1700X @ 3.82Ghz
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VI Hero
Cooling TR Le Grand Macho & custom GPU loop
Memory 16Gb G.Skill 3200 RGB
Video Card(s) GTX1080ti (Heatkiller WB) @ 2Ghz core/1.5(12)Ghz mem
Storage Samsumg 960 Pro m2. 512Gb
Display(s) Dell Ultrasharp 27" (2560x1440)
Case Lian Li PC-V33WX
Audio Device(s) On Board
Power Supply Seasonic Prime TItanium 850
Software W10
Benchmark Scores Look, it's a Ryzen on air........ What's the point?
#38
Physx implementation has always been underwhelming. I saw it first in Mirrors Edge, then Cryostasis then in Metro 2033, then in Batman AA. I've said before, it's nothing more than tinsel. I enjoyed walking through some dynamic smoke and kicking a piece of litter about. Then got bored when i couldn't smash a telephone or interact with the environment. Like I say, tinsel.

I would prefer the scripted environment damage of BF3 over the extremely limited re-active physx on offer so far.

In Crysis 3, this time running under 2 7970's, I was amazed by the water reflections and the way the light flowed across the walls of areas coinciding with the movement of objects in the water.

Havok is in the same boat in that it needs to be used globally in game to make it useful.

In game physics is all too often used by people to attack Nvidia for keeping it proprietary or attacking AMD for not having a suitable alternative. Point is - it's all nothing more than window dressing until the games adopt a more universal immersion.

Once again it's down to developers to make the effort and for AMD/Nvidia to build upon that to code for all of us.
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,287 (5.51/day)
Likes
10,395
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 4790K@4.6GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z97 Extreme6
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR3-1866 9-10-9-27
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Corsair 650D Black
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#39
:confused:



If your judging by implemintation. Havok is above PhysX. Its used more widely.
No, PhysX is used more widely. PhysX is currently used in about twice as many games as Havok is.

And anyone else's implementation is? Rigght ..
Ill just go sit in a corner dreaming, give me a shout when you're nvidia overlords have cracked it in ten years with the ps5 then eh ta.
No, that is my point, they are all about the same. What is possible in software, running off the CPU, is all about the same. Doesn't matter if you are using PhysX, Havok, Bullet, or a custom solution the end result look pretty much the same.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
4,357 (1.91/day)
Likes
1,074
Processor Intel Core i7 3770k @ 4.3GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V LK
Memory 16GB(2x8) DDR3@2133MHz 1.5v Patriot
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce GTX 1080 GAMING X 8G
Storage 59.63GB Samsung SSD 830 + 465.76 GB Samsung SSD 840 EVO + 2TB Hitachi + 300GB Velociraptor HDD
Display(s) Acer Predator X34 3440x1440@100Hz G-Sync
Case NZXT PHANTOM410-BK
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Titanium PCIe
Power Supply Corsair 850W
Mouse Anker
Software Win 10 Pro - 64bit
Benchmark Scores 30FPS in NFS:Rivals
#40
The software implementation never has a slowdown on AMD cards.
LOL. Where do you want me to start. Ok, let's see: Mirror's Edge, Mafia 2, Batman (all), Borderlands 2, etc. All those games cannot run properly when PxysX is enabled on AMD cards...
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,287 (5.51/day)
Likes
10,395
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 4790K@4.6GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z97 Extreme6
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR3-1866 9-10-9-27
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Corsair 650D Black
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#41
LOL. Where do you want me to start. Ok, let's see: Mirror's Edge, Mafia 2, Batman (all), Borderlands 2, etc. All those games cannot run properly when PxysX is enabled on AMD cards...
Do you understand what the words "software implementation" means? You just listed a bunch of games that use the hardware accelerated implementation.:ohwell:

If you need an explanation I already went over this several posts up, try reading the thread.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
4,357 (1.91/day)
Likes
1,074
Processor Intel Core i7 3770k @ 4.3GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V LK
Memory 16GB(2x8) DDR3@2133MHz 1.5v Patriot
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce GTX 1080 GAMING X 8G
Storage 59.63GB Samsung SSD 830 + 465.76 GB Samsung SSD 840 EVO + 2TB Hitachi + 300GB Velociraptor HDD
Display(s) Acer Predator X34 3440x1440@100Hz G-Sync
Case NZXT PHANTOM410-BK
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Titanium PCIe
Power Supply Corsair 850W
Mouse Anker
Software Win 10 Pro - 64bit
Benchmark Scores 30FPS in NFS:Rivals
#42
Do you understand what the words "software implementation" means? You just listed a bunch of games that use the hardware accelerated implementation.:ohwell:

If you need an explanation I already went over this several posts up, try reading the thread.
Please wake up. Those games use hardware impl on nVidia and software on AMD. So yes, software impl on AMD cards is deliberately broken.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
478 (0.27/day)
Likes
119
System Name Desktop
Processor i5 3570k
Motherboard Asrock Z77
Cooling Corsair H60
Memory G Skill 8gb 1600 mhz X 2
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon 7850 X 2
Storage 1 TB Velociraptor, 240GB 840 Samsung
Display(s) 27" Samsung LED X 2
Case Thermaltake V9
Power Supply Seasonic 620 W, CX600M on stand by
Software Win 8.1 64
Benchmark Scores Benches are silly
#43
Ok, all this tension over nothing. Physx sucks and havok sucks at the moment. We're all hoping that Havok 2 would be better and universally embraced by all developers. Right now, even hardware accelerated PhysX adds nothing to the game.
I want good physics that is part of the game instead of dressing on the game. If i blow up the tank, the tracks better fly off and decapitate my head instead of looking like the tracks flew off and goes right past me.
Physics in game is pretty pathetic right now and we want more. That is all.
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,287 (5.51/day)
Likes
10,395
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 4790K@4.6GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z97 Extreme6
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR3-1866 9-10-9-27
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Corsair 650D Black
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#44
Please wake up. Those games use hardware impl on nVidia and software on AMD. So yes, software impl on AMD cards is deliberately broken.
No, the software implementation worked just fine on AMD cards. Thats why the games were playable with AMD hardware.
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,287 (5.51/day)
Likes
10,395
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 4790K@4.6GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z97 Extreme6
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR3-1866 9-10-9-27
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Corsair 650D Black
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#46
Ok, I'll rephase, the software implementation worked fine with AMD cards. It was certainly not broken intentionally when an AMD card was present.
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,419 (1.18/day)
Likes
1,333
#47
Ok, I'll rephase, the software implementation worked fine with AMD cards. It was certainly not broken intentionally when an AMD card was present.
It wasnt broken but it wasnt accelerated either. PhysX accelerates through CUDA API which you need Nvidia hardware.

From the small clip it looks like Havok will be able to accelerate with out dicriminating on GPU. We'll find out more by the end of the month since they have 2 boths planned at GDC.

If thats the case its a nice step forward.