• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Health , Medical ;

Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
14,700 (6.12/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor i7 8700k 4.6Ghz @ 1.24V
Motherboard AsRock Fatal1ty K6 Z370
Cooling beQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 3
Memory 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200/C16
Video Card(s) MSI GTX 1080 Gaming X @ 2100/5500
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 830 256GB + Crucial BX100 250GB + Toshiba 1TB HDD
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Fractal Design Define C TG
Audio Device(s) Situational :)
Power Supply EVGA G2 750W
Mouse Logitech G502 Protheus Spectrum
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II (Best K/B ever... <3)
Software W10 x64
That's a different issue, I feel. Selling cigs or alcohol to minors is illegal and so it should be for nicotine liquids, I can't really see any difference.


So... it is about regulating how poisonous they are.
I mean, it's great if they can slap those companies for deliberately putting unnecessary but harmful components into their cigarettes, but that doesn't change the fact that cigs are toxic by their very nature and that can't be changed.

The rabbit hole goes deeper.

Tobacco companies are doing stuff quite the same as what we saw with Dieselgate. They deploy a test process that is unlikely to resemble reality. They know they are exceeding regulatory limits, and created a reality that looks like they play by the rules. In other words, they could be liable for health implications caused by smoking - and continuing the practice with knowledge of it is in fact some form of indirect manslaughter. Which is pretty huge. After all, the end result of all this rule breaking is that even if you wanted to, the amount of addictive substances in a cigarette is só high, they create physical and mental dependancies much more rapidly and readily than we used to think - yet they tell the world the opposite is true.

You have to consider this is a long term battle with long term effects; someone who started smoking 30-40 years ago, when the awareness of how harmful it is simply wasn't there all too much, has been provided information that the harmful substances went down over the years as regulation kicked in. This appears not to be the case or, the test method is so screwed up its results cannot be trusted. New methods are now being deployed and they actually show us what really went down over the past decades.

There is a lot of stuff that is toxic in the world. And some of it we breathe every day. Dieselgate again; nOx... The moment it gets harmful though depends on the amount of that stuff you breathe, or we breathe, on average, on a daily basis. In the same way there is a difference between someone smoking all day every day and the occasional one. And in the same way, the concentration of harmful substances in a single cigarette gives you an idea, a baseline, to determine what is 'safe' within some (twisted?) reasonable margin, and what is só harmful you'd never even allow it in the first place. After all, if a cigarette actually appears to be as addictive as a shot of heroine, what would we do (its not; but still a whole lot more than we used to think), and what would we have done in the past decades?

That is why I say this is the exact same type of lobby; even with e-cigs it appears very likely that we are inhaling substances/combinations of substances in amounts that are way beyond healthy; while the e-cig is portrayed as a somewhat healthier/less damaging alternative.

Here, have a look

And yes, about the absurdity of regulation... look at weed and alcohol. We know for a fact alcohol is ten times more damaging, both on a personal and on a society level (alcohol related aggression, vandalism, domestic violence, etc.) yet alcohol is widely regarded as 'Okay'. In the same vein, the hard ban on harddrugs might be completely counterproductive, creating a scarce and highly volatile market with lots of violence and death involved, and the products coming out of it are hard to trust, versus legal alternatives that would have been regulated.

Regulation on substances like these will always be absurd, but there is some method to the madness - I guess, and as always, we humans are keen to create systems that give us the idea of control, freedom is a scary thing when it comes to these subjects, to many.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
6,126 (2.58/day)
Location
USA
System Name Paladius Tacet
Processor Ryzen 5600x
Motherboard MSI X570 Tomahawk
Cooling Arctic Freezer 34 DUO (custom aggressive fan curve)
Memory G.Skill 2x16 3600 14-14-14-34 Dual Rank
Video Card(s) Navi 6800 + Rage Mode + OC
Display(s) Acer Nitro XF243Y 23.8" 0.5ms IPS 165hz 1080p
Case Corsair 110Q Silent + NZXT Aer-P exhaust fan
Power Supply EVGA 700w Gold
Mouse Razer Naga X (2021 Edition)
Vaping is a meme anyway.

Indiana has 3rd most vapers anywhere in country, and we have loads of stores here for it. It's amazing how dumb people can be here. 90% of the jobs in this state pay crap wages too, so I guess that goes hand in hand. Most of the vapers prob make $12 an hour here max, I sit outside with my grandparents in their garden sometimes, which is right next to a vape store sadly, and they don't have a privacy fence... they do a lot of business from people in crummy cars, lol God forbid people learn how to have a savings account these days.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
427 (0.27/day)
Location
Ohio
System Name Daily Driver (part time crunch) / Penny (full time crunch) / Wilson (full time crunch)
Processor Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.0GHz/ i7 3770K / i7 3770
Motherboard ASUS X-470 Plus - Gaming Tuf / older ASUS board / Standard Dell Vostro Mobo
Cooling Stock / Stock / Stock
Memory 16 GB DDR4 3000 MHz / 16GB DDR3 / 16GB DDR3 /
Video Card(s) EVGA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER SC ULTRA GAMING/ Onboard / Onboard
Storage Samsung 950 pro m.2 SSD 512 GB / 60 GB standard SSD / 500 GB 7200 RPM Drive
Display(s) Acer 144 Hz monitor and HP 60 Hz monitor / headless / headless
Case NZXT Case / Rosewill case / Dell Vostro Chassis
Power Supply 750 W Gold+ modular / 650 W / Dell power supply
Mouse Weird Corsair mouse that I like / headless / headless
Keyboard Logitech G710 / headless / headless
Software Windows 10 Pro / CentOS 7 Minimal / Ubuntu 16.04
Just want to chime in with my opinion. Vaping has helped me quit smoking. It is not clear that it is safer, but I have control over the nicotine content in what I am putting into my body at least. I am willing to risk the effects of vaping over smoking at this time until it is proven it is just as dangerous. My two cents

EDIT: It certainly needs to be regulated better I will say. Without regulation, anyone can brew any juice with god knows what. Also accurate nicotine levels helps former smokers like me.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
2,339 (2.99/day)
Location
Poland
Processor Ryzen 7 3700X
Motherboard Gigabyte X570 Aorus Elite
Cooling BeQuiet Dark Rock 4
Memory 2x8 GB Crucial Ballistix Sport LT 3200 CL16 @ 3600 CL16
Video Card(s) EVGA 1060 6GB SSC
Storage SX8200 Pro 1 TB, Plextor M6Pro 256 GB, WD Blue 2TB
Display(s) Acer XB273GP
Case SilverStone Primera PM01 RGB
Power Supply SeaSonic Focus Plus Gold 750W
Mouse SteelSeries Rival 300
Keyboard MK Typist (Kailh Box White)
Friend of mine used to smoke pack a day, once vapes became popular she switched to them. Now she no longer needed to go down 3 floors to the ground level to smoke since she could do it at her desk. So she get bit healthier due to ditching smokes but got less exercise. I'd be more worried about the content of aromatic compounds to help with the "taste" and "home brew" stuff. I'm actually surprised that the big boys from tobacco industry haven't stepped in yet to help pass regulations on e-cigs. It's easy money for them, kids in middle school walk around with vapes. Get them hooked on nicotine and you're set.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.73/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
The company that owns Marlboro (Altria) owns a 35% stakes in Juul which, in turn, had 72% e-cigarette market share in the United States as of September 2018. Big tobacco made forays into e-cigs years ago.

On topic: there's over 200 cases (most related illnesses have taken place in Wisconsin) now but it's too early to lay the blame anywhere. Wait for CDC to isolate the toxin then trace that toxin back to its sources.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,069 (1.07/day)
Location
USA
System Name #1 Gaming / #2 Office
Processor Intel i5 8600K / Xeon W3680 @ 4.1GHz
Motherboard Asrock Z370 Taichi / Asus P6X58D-E
Cooling Phanteks PH-TC14PE CPU HSF, Arctic MonoPlus VGA HSF / CM V8
Memory G-Skill TridentZ 2X8GB F4-3200C14D-16GTZ / Samsung 3x4GB DDR3L Green 1600 30nm YK0
Video Card(s) Zotac 1060 6GB Mini ZT-P10600A-10L / XFX Radeon 7850 DD 2GB
Storage Samsung 970 Pro 512GB NVMe, Phison E12 1TB NVMe, WD Black 4TB HDD / Samsung 950 Pro 512GB NVMe
Display(s) Dell S3220DGF 32" 2560x1440 165Hz / Asus VH242H 24" 1080P
Case Lian Li PC-A05NB / Lian Li PC-A05NB
Audio Device(s) Audiotechnica ATH M50X, Antlion Mod Mic 4, SYBA SD-CM-UAUD, Xenyx 302USB / JLab Rewind Retro BT
Power Supply Seasonic SS-660XP2 660 Watt Platinum / EVGA 650P2 650 Watt Platinum
Mouse Zowie EC2-A / Zowie EC2-A
Keyboard Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless Red / Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless Brown
Software Win 10 LTSC 1809 / Win 10 LTSC 1809
The company that owns Marlboro (Altria) owns a 35% stakes in Juul which, in turn, had 72% e-cigarette market share in the United States as of September 2018. Big tobacco made forays into e-cigs years ago.

On topic: there's over 200 cases (most related illnesses have taken place in Wisconsin) now but it's too early to lay the blame anywhere. Wait for CDC to isolate the toxin then trace that toxin back to its sources.
Nearly all compounds in addition to nicotine are hazardous.

Diacetyl (flavoring agent) - "popcorn lung" bronchiolitis obliterans
Propylene Glycol - formaldehyde
Vegetable Glycerin - formaldehyde, Lipoid Pneumonia
Cannabis Oil additives - Lipoid Pneumonia
vanillin (vanilla flavoring agent) - aldehydes
cinnamaldehyde (cinnamon flavoring agent) - aldehydes
benzaldehyde (almond flavoring agent - aldehydes
2,3-pentanedione Acetylpropionyl (buttery flavor agent), used as substitute for diacetyl, similar hazard
acetoin (buttery flavor agent) - diacetyl

We are still understanding the relative toxicity of e-liquid constituents and their implications for airway exposure. PG is a common chemical used to produce polyester and as deicer/antifreeze, as well as being a base constituent in e-liquids. Intravenous PG can cause acute renal and central nervous system (CNS) toxicity [42], and PG inhalation causes renal and liver toxicity [43]. PG has previously been shown to inhibit renal glucose transport and corneal Na+/K+ATPase activity [44, 45]. Beyond PG, VG, and nicotine, we previously found no chemical similarity in 13 e-liquid flavors [30]. Therefore, given their heterogeneous nature, the overall goal of this project was to screen a greater number of neat e-liquids to identify flavors and/or chemical constituents that are more toxic and would direct additional studies. We found a number of highly toxic e-liquids that should be prioritized for study (Fig 1; S1 Table; S1 Data). Furthermore, in addition to identifying vanillin as potentially highly toxic, we also identified—using this screen—3 e-liquids that contain diacetyl (2,3-butanedione), which causes bronchiolitis obliterans, and 5 e-liquids that contain 2,3-butanedione monooxime, which is a chemical diphosphatase that blocks ATP-sensitive K+ channels [4651]. Interestingly, many flavors, e.g., benzaldehyde (almond) and cinnamaldehyde (cinnamon), are aldehydes that can form protein adducts [52]. Benzaldehyde was only detected in 4 e-liquids. Cinnamaldehyde was found in 8 e-liquids (including Cinnamon Roll, Hot Cinnamon Candies, and Root Beer) and has previously been shown to impair phagocytosis in macrophages [34]. Sherwood and Boitano [24] recently exposed airway epithelia to 7 chemical flavors and concluded that vanillin and a chocolate flavor (2,5-dimethypyrazine) had the biggest effect on their cells. We found that vanillin was present in 63 out of 148 e-liquids. However, 2,5-dimethypyrazine was not detected in any of our e-liquids. Vanillin activates transient receptor potential cation channel subfamily V member (TRPV) channels. TRPV channels are expressed in neurons and serve as nonselective cation channels that can increase cytoplasmic Ca2+ levels in epithelia [53]. Of note, prolonged increases in cytosolic Ca2+ can alter cell division rates and are indicative of apoptosis [54].

All e-cigarette emissions tested contained at least one aldehyde and/or flavoring chemical on either the FEMA "High Priority Chemicals" or FDA Harmful and Potentially Harmful Constituents lists when sampled at typical usage conditions. Diacetyl, a known respiratory hazard, along with acetoin, were the most prevalent of the flavoring chemicals in e-cigarette vapor, being found in more than 60% of samples. The presence of propionaldehyde, acetaldehyde and formaldehyde were correlated, corroborating previous work suggesting thermal degradation as a pathway for aldehyde generation in e-cigarette vapors. Median formaldehyde concentrations of 626 μg/m3 in e-cigarette vapor exceed the ACGIH maximum concentrations allowable for workers of 370 μg/m3.

 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
96 (0.03/day)
Location
Iceland
System Name Massi
Processor Intel i5 10600K, 6 core @5Ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte Z490 GAMING X
Cooling Corsair H115i PRO 280mm
Memory Corsair 16GB DDR4 3600Mhz
Video Card(s) Asus 5700 XT OC 8GB
Storage 1TB ADATA XPG SX8200 Pro
Display(s) Asus 27" PG278QR TN LED 1ms, 2560x1440, 165hz
Case Corsair Obsidian 450D, Noctua fans in front, up, and back
Audio Device(s) Onboard Realtek ALC1200
Power Supply Corsair RM850X 850W
Mouse Asus Gladius Optical Gaming
Keyboard Black, Asus
Software Windows 10
tar and black lungs are gone with e-wapes. its just moisture the lungs can clean peretty eaisyly. sigarettes and e-wape are not the same.. but you get nicotine. thats all
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.73/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Vario's second link and quote there...
"All e-cigarette emissions tested contained at least one aldehyde and/or flavoring chemical on either the FEMA "High Priority Chemicals" or FDA Harmful and Potentially Harmful Constituents lists when sampled at typical usage conditions."
...no one should want to consume that.

My suspicion is that CDC's results are going to cause the Surgeon General to apply a similar carcinogen warning to all e-cigarette products.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
427 (0.27/day)
Location
Ohio
System Name Daily Driver (part time crunch) / Penny (full time crunch) / Wilson (full time crunch)
Processor Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.0GHz/ i7 3770K / i7 3770
Motherboard ASUS X-470 Plus - Gaming Tuf / older ASUS board / Standard Dell Vostro Mobo
Cooling Stock / Stock / Stock
Memory 16 GB DDR4 3000 MHz / 16GB DDR3 / 16GB DDR3 /
Video Card(s) EVGA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER SC ULTRA GAMING/ Onboard / Onboard
Storage Samsung 950 pro m.2 SSD 512 GB / 60 GB standard SSD / 500 GB 7200 RPM Drive
Display(s) Acer 144 Hz monitor and HP 60 Hz monitor / headless / headless
Case NZXT Case / Rosewill case / Dell Vostro Chassis
Power Supply 750 W Gold+ modular / 650 W / Dell power supply
Mouse Weird Corsair mouse that I like / headless / headless
Keyboard Logitech G710 / headless / headless
Software Windows 10 Pro / CentOS 7 Minimal / Ubuntu 16.04
@FordGT90Concept I would rather gamble on this than the already proven danger of cigarettes. I agree that it needs to be studied and regulated. But right now to me it is the lesser of two evils for me. I don't want to consume it, but I am working on an addiction. Nobody wants to be hooked on something.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,069 (1.07/day)
Location
USA
System Name #1 Gaming / #2 Office
Processor Intel i5 8600K / Xeon W3680 @ 4.1GHz
Motherboard Asrock Z370 Taichi / Asus P6X58D-E
Cooling Phanteks PH-TC14PE CPU HSF, Arctic MonoPlus VGA HSF / CM V8
Memory G-Skill TridentZ 2X8GB F4-3200C14D-16GTZ / Samsung 3x4GB DDR3L Green 1600 30nm YK0
Video Card(s) Zotac 1060 6GB Mini ZT-P10600A-10L / XFX Radeon 7850 DD 2GB
Storage Samsung 970 Pro 512GB NVMe, Phison E12 1TB NVMe, WD Black 4TB HDD / Samsung 950 Pro 512GB NVMe
Display(s) Dell S3220DGF 32" 2560x1440 165Hz / Asus VH242H 24" 1080P
Case Lian Li PC-A05NB / Lian Li PC-A05NB
Audio Device(s) Audiotechnica ATH M50X, Antlion Mod Mic 4, SYBA SD-CM-UAUD, Xenyx 302USB / JLab Rewind Retro BT
Power Supply Seasonic SS-660XP2 660 Watt Platinum / EVGA 650P2 650 Watt Platinum
Mouse Zowie EC2-A / Zowie EC2-A
Keyboard Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless Red / Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless Brown
Software Win 10 LTSC 1809 / Win 10 LTSC 1809
@FordGT90Concept I would rather gamble on this than the already proven danger of cigarettes. I agree that it needs to be studied and regulated. But right now to me it is the lesser of two evils for me. I don't want to consume it, but I am working on an addiction. Nobody wants to be hooked on something.
Cold turkey is an effective method, it sucks to go through but it can be done. You have to think of the suffering period as temporary. It takes willpower but its the fastest way to get off things.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 24, 2018
Messages
1,195 (1.37/day)
Location
south wales uk
System Name 1. The Devils Dialysis VR rig 2. intel teliscope rig 3.MSI GP72MVR Leopard Pro .
Processor 1.3900x @stock 2. i7 7700k @5. 3. i7 7700hq
Motherboard 1.aorus x570 ultra 2. z270-a asus prime
Cooling 1.Hard tube loop, cpu and gpu 2. Hard loop cpu only
Memory 1.hyperx preditor @3600 16gb 2.vengence 32gb @3000 3. 16gb hyperx @2400
Video Card(s) 1.MSI 1080 8gb with EKWB 2. Sapphire Nitro+ rx580 8gb @1450 3. gtx 1060 3gb
Storage 1 M.2 500gb , 2 3tb HDs 2. 256gb ssd, 3tbHD 3. 256 m.2. 1tb ssd
Display(s) 1.LG 50inch UHD , oculus rift S. 2 SONY bravia 1080p, oculus Rift . 3. 17 inch 120 hz display
Case 1. Thermaltake P5 2. loop
Audio Device(s) 1 Onboard 2 Onboard 3 Onboard
Power Supply 1.seasonic gx 850w 2. seasonic gx 750w
Mouse 1 ROG Gladius 2 Corsair m65 pro
Keyboard 1. ROG Strix Flare 2. Corsair F75 RBG 3. steelseries RBG
Software 1. win 10 enterpise 2. win10 pro 3, win10 home
Benchmark Scores 1.7821 cb20 ,cb15 3442 1c 204 cpu-z 1c 539 12c 8847 2. 1106 cb 3.cb 970
I can never get the darn things to light don't mater how many boxes of matches I use :)
 
Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
924 (0.24/day)
System Name future xeon II
Processor DUAL SOCKET xeon e5 2686 v3 , 36c/72t, hacked all cores @3.5ghz, TDP limit hacked
Motherboard asrock rack ep2c612 ws
Cooling case fans,liquid corsair h100iv2 x2
Memory 96 gb ddr4 2133mhz gskill+corsair
Video Card(s) 2x 1080 sc acx3 SLI, @STOCK
Storage Hp ex950 2tb nvme+ adata xpg sx8200 pro 1tb nvme+ sata ssd's+ spinners
Display(s) philips 40" bdm4065uc 4k @60
Case silverstone temjin tj07-b
Audio Device(s) sb Z
Power Supply corsair hx1200i
Mouse corsair m95 16 buttons
Keyboard microsoft internet keyboard pro
Software windows 10 x64 1903 ,enterprise
Benchmark Scores fire strike ultra- 10k time spy- 15k cpu z- 400/15000
I personally have never had the need for smoking, vaping, gaping or fapping....
just kiddin'
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
9,060 (2.24/day)
Location
Jakarta, Indonesia
System Name micropage7
Processor Intel Xeon X3470
Motherboard Gigabyte Technology Co. Ltd. P55A-UD3R (Socket 1156)
Cooling Enermax ETS-T40F
Memory Samsung 8.00GB Dual-Channel DDR3
Video Card(s) NVIDIA Quadro FX 1800
Storage V-GEN03AS18EU120GB, Seagate 2 x 1TB and Seagate 4TB
Display(s) Samsung 21 inch LCD Wide Screen
Case Icute Super 18
Audio Device(s) Auzentech X-Fi Forte
Power Supply Silverstone 600 Watt
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Sades Excalibur + Taihao keycaps
Software Win 7 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Classified
I always say that vaping just like you boil the chemical and drag it to your lungs, at certain points it's worse than smoking
 
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
1,400 (1.33/day)
Location
Cusp Of Mania, FL
Processor Ryzen 9 3900X
Motherboard Asus ROG Strix X370-F
Cooling Dark Rock 4
Memory 2x8GB TridentZ RGB [3600Mhz CL16]
Video Card(s) Asus ROG Strix RTX 2060 OC
Storage 970 EVO 500GB nvme, 860 EVO 250GB SATA, Seagate Barracuda 1TB + 4TB HDDs
Display(s) 27" MSI G27C4 FHD 165hz
Case NZXT H710
Audio Device(s) Modi Multibit, Vali 2, Shortest Way 51+ - LSR 305's, Focal Clear, HD6xx, HE5xx, LCD-2 Classic
Power Supply Corsair RM650x v2
Mouse iunno whatever cheap crap logitech *clutches Xbox 360 controller security blanket*
Keyboard HyperX Alloy Pro
Software Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores ask your mother
I'm sitting here wondering where this is all coming from... I have been vaping for years and never had any major problems. Smoking, I knew was killing me every time I lit up. I could feel it. And then throughout my day there were big reminders of what I was doing to myself. When you can't breathe well enough to sleep on your back and some point in your day is going to involve hacking up crap like you have a chest cold, that's a major problem. People don't like to talk about this stuff because it's gross and embarrassing, but it's worth saying because when I switched my breathing got markedly better and that all went away. I had more energy, too. I'm really underselling it, here - the difference was night and day. I would say it was about a one month turn around from feeling like a smoker to feeling like a new person. The last time I had my lungs checked I was told they resemble those of a non-smoker. As someone who once smoked 2 packs a day, I find that pretty remarkable. Understand, this was a voluntary thing. I felt fine. At the time I was riding my bike 5-10 miles a day and honestly, feeling unstoppable when doing so, just putting all of my energy into it almost every day. And then feeling good when I got home, instead of like I wanted to puke. I went on my dime to see what the doctors would think, and whether or not they would see fit to mark me down as a non-smoker. Which they did!

I understand that it's not the healthiest thing to do - does anybody really think otherwise? I've never heard a single vaper actually try to make that claim outside of deep pockets of the net. Maybe initially some did, but at this point you really look dumb saying that, and even your fellow vapers will shut you down on that. We're past the point where everyone knows there are going to be risks. The implications are a different story and will take much longer to hash-out.

What is putting these people in the hospital in short order that I and pretty much every vaper I've encountered over the years have seemingly evaded for years? What the hell is in their vapes? I'm telling you... I've been doing this a long time. I know and have met plenty of long-time vapers. I have never encountered anyone who has been hospitalized with this terrible mystery lung illness, or even showing signs of a problem growing. Something is really fishy there.

I can think of a couple factors... I run rebuildables... as in I prepare my own coils. I clean them with an ultrasonic cleaner. I also mix my own juice, typically with minimal flavoring and nicotine. The way I set things up eliminates a lot of the unknowns in pre-rigged BTC vapes. Quite often, I vape no-nic, which I think is more common than people realize. There's a hobby side to the whole vaping thing. It starts with just wanting to get off smoking. Then you wean yourself off of the nicotine and discover that the whole draw for you was the ritual. And with vaping, there are all of these different interests revolving around the ritual. By this point, it's a completely different animal from smoking. Some of the reasons for doing it are the same, but just as many are unique to vaping. That's where long-time vapers reside, for the most part. But then, our habits and methods are distinctly different from kids buying Stigs and other pod systems and abusing or dismantling them. I suspect there are things going on that many vapers would not condone and probably have never done themselves, hence why it hasn't happened to them.

I'd like to know what particular vapes each of these people are using and how they are designed and set up, as well as how they were used in these instances. Like, hard, detailed info. Why not at least take those exact devices and really asses and analyze them? Maybe there are meaningful observations there. That side of it always gets glossed over. You never see that follow-up where they identify the exact cause of the exact incident. The narrative is always "These people vaped and were hurt. Nobody knows why this happened to this relatively small, insular group, but we can say that vaping may be harmful in this and that way." Not what I would call balanced. Too many claims with major implications are followed up by "We're looking into it." You never hear what actually became of it or what actually caused it... only what might've. There are no actual connections being made... no way of repeating these anomalies. Doesn't mean there's nothing to em, but it does make it highly likely to be something other than what anyone thinks it is. Because if it was what we thought it was, we could then easily define and replicate the parameters and outcomes. I'm still waiting for that missing link.

And you can be sure that if it's there, I want to know everything I can about it, for my own sake more than anything. That's why I still read all of these articles, studies, and editorials, even if brings me to things I find objectionable from where I stand with my own choices. That is my dog in the fight. Not "Vaping is good and this is all bullshit!" but rather "Is vaping bad and if so in what ways are the risks applicable to me?" I want to better understand the implications of my choices and thus far most of the press I've seen has not been helpful.

Even a lot of the studies do it, messing with parameters without demonstrating relevance to real-world usage, leaving less informed and less invested onlookers to run wild with it. The very first FDA study found astonishing numbers of toxins and carcinogens in cig-style cartridges, but they also pumped more than double the voltage you'd ever get to one in order to produce that result. If you tried to vape it, you would choke violently on all of the burning material... yes, burning. Not vaporizing. The heat alone would make you reflexively pull back - we're approaching welding temperatures here. Who vapes like that? It'd be like putting your face up to a fire and taking a breath. And somehow people believed this was what vapers were doing. We must've been dropping like flies back then! I can't remember how many times people told me I was going to die back when that was everywhere. But that was what... 7 years ago now? At least... and still waiting on the verdict. There is good literature that poses some very important questions and concerns. But there is also some really, really egregious stuff that still misleads people to this day.

It's not a matter of if there is potential to cause harm. Undoubtedly there is. But whether or not and how that harm would manifest has not been seen, or this would not even be a conversation. If you heat anything enough, it burns and becomes toxic. But that was never the question. The question is whether that applies within the context of vaping habits, the devices used, and the typical usage scenarios. And then the question becomes, how do we stay outside of the range where it becomes significantly more toxic. Given what we DO know, it's reasonable to assume that it ought to be possible for people to vape without causing undue harm to themselves, though that's not the same as saying there will never be risks. It's not so black and white as toxic or not. Everything is toxic. We need context that still to this day hasn't fully manifested. That is what determines the difference between "direly hazardous" and "reasonably unharmful" but unfortunately, safety data is still in the abstract, generalized realm. The foundation for all of the mechanisms has just been built. It will be a few years more, at least, before that translates to more detailed and applicable answers to the questions we all have about the safety of vaping. I really do think anybody saying otherwise at this point is either ignorant, dishonest, or knows something that very few people know. Trying to argue for/against this stuff right now can only ever be a sideways conversation.

What I mean is, we understand some of the potential vectors for toxicity but we don't know how this pertains to each and every possible usage scenario, so it's possible some are wildly more harmful than others, while others might not be so bad at all. People thinking otherwise ought to stop looking at studies and articles and start educating themselves on all of the different types of vapes and juices out there, as they vary drastically. Really examine how exactly they work. That matters just as much as the general base toxicity. Think of the device and usage method as your multiplier. What you will then realize is how inadequate the current literature on this stuff is... just how much has not been accounted for when it comes to how people actually use these devices. The ones focusing on the irritant angle with control groups are interesting and relevant, but a lot of the other stuff isn't anywhere near there yet. And that aside, I'm not even convinced the irritant hypothesis is applicable in this case, as that mostly pertains to carcinogenic potential and immediate-short-term inhibition, not acute, permanent lung damage - the causes are unlikely to be related in my estimation as a decently-read layman. We'd be looking elsewhere and some things do come to mind, particularly studies on toxic compounds and metal oxides given off in large quantities when temperature is poorly managed and things begin to burn. What I'm suggesting is that we might simply be looking at bad batches of pre-made coils. There are some flaws that would make it easy to produce highly toxic compounds very quickly, though it's far from normal. I personally have encountered cartridges that had I continued to vape on, might have actually put me in the hospital. I can elaborate on this idea if anybody who's not aware is actually reading this ridiculous post :p

Those of us who follow these issues closely wish not to put it all under the same blanket and inadvertently take out the good alongside the bad. Vaping is not all bad and in fact a lot of it is good. So it'd be nice to be able to isolate those things from eachother without all of the FUD, so that we as people can get the most good out of it for the best societal price, rather than demonizing it and pushing it to the fringes, where you can be sure everyone involved will be hurt in some way. You will never stop people from doing that. I'd rather see more people pick it apart on a deeper level, instead of making assumptions based only on existing knowledge, which there still aren't sufficient amounts of.

So to me it's simple. We handle it like everything else. Clearly and consicely identify the true risks, inform the populace, put reasonable countermeasures in place, and leave people to their choices. This is the only way forward... not banning it outright or giving it total free reign. Neither of those outcomes will do anyone any good in the end. Society will have to learn how to vape properly, just as we once had to learn to drink properly. Interestingly, you can see how that works now in the recently 'modernized' eskimo populations. They as a people never had alcohol before then - for countless generations it was not in their world, so all of the worst attributes of a society that drinks are in full bloom. But as time goes by they are learning how to put it in a proper place and it is reducing the harm little by little. A case of what is true for individuals also scaling up to people as a whole. We need time to sort out and integrate new vices as they arise. It takes generations for these things to fall into place. And if history has taught us anything, it's that once a society is exposed to a vice, there is no going back. You can't spit out the apple of chaos. All you can do is try to make sense of this new world of sin and folly.


Is that really a stretch to say that we might be jumping the gun on this whole vaping thing? Is it really that crazy in a world where drinking and smoking are legal? A world where addictive drugs are prescribed as medicine? What exactly is so special about vaping to demand all of this attention? Maybe I'm just not qualified to interpret these scientific papers and it's far better or worse than I realize. But then, neither are the majority of people who speak on them, least of all the journalists that write about them. And it seems like most of the people writing the papers are more interested in further research... as in, a more thorough conclusion than the ones we're presently debating. If the safety were really as established as some people (on BOTH sides) often like to argue we wouldn't still be talking about it and looking into it scientifically.

I mean, nobody argues that smoking will kill you. But that's because we actually do know that to be an indisputable fact. All of the nuance has been dragged out and pinned up already. The nuances of the risks associated with vaping are nowhere near that far along. Yet everyone thinks they know because of this or that. How long did it take the world to fully recognize the dangers of smoking tobacco? When you look at that, it seems implausible that we could know the dangers of vaping one way or the other in such a comparatively short time. I don't buy either side, frankly. For now I trust my intuition, but at least I can admit that about myself. I can say that I don't really know and start from there.

To me, without knowing the particulars of the usage, none of this seems all that meaningful. A bad thing has happened with a group of people vaping. Great. That could mean anything. Maybe it is inherent to all vaping on some level. Or it could be a freak thing. Knowing the hows and whats may tell us more than anything else could. Quite often it completely alters the implications. I don't want to see previous studies tied into this, as though somehow that implies an indisputable conclusion. That's not enough rigor for good science. All you really have there is a tidy and nice-sounding but un-vetted conclusion. We don't know the true connection there. It's a fallacious presupposition to assume they are related simply because logic supports it. For all we know the real reasons are entirely unrelated, in which we fail to identify the real danger. I want this specifically examined in a critical way. Really... I'm betting there's something funny there.

I'm not denying it's happening, but for a long time stuff like this didn't really happen and now suddenly it seems to be happening everywhere. You'd think if they had always been this bad it would have been open-and-shut years ago. Perhaps it is not vaping as a whole but specific products that this subset of people are using? Otherwise, given the acuteness of these events, the numbers would be orders of magnitude larger. So what changed? Anybody who truly cares for the safety of his neighbors ought to want to know that. Why stop at the conclusion that this happened and therefor vaping is dangerous. Why is it dangerous? What exactly caused this? Obviously the vapes were involved somehow. That's not good enough to prevent this sort of thing, though. All it really does is scare people, which ain't the same as making them safer!


On a personal note, I really enjoy vaping. As mentioned before, it's a hobby for me... tinkering with different gear, trying different builds, different combinations of flavorings... I get a whole lot more out of it than I ever did from smoking, and my overall health seems to be much better. My doctor seems to agree. I have read so many studies on it and have yet to see the proof that it will be my cause of death. Plenty to suggest it is not at all harmless, but certainly enough for me to think it is far less harmful than smoking, which is all I personally care about. I just want one vice that's not killing me outright. Most people have at least one of those, whether they want to admit it or not. Sue me. I'm human and not everything I do for pleasure is in my best interest. I don't think that's ever completely avoidable, though! We all must pick our poisons. Desire flows like water downhill. Better to identify and integrate your desires in a less destructive manner than try to eliminate them and either implode or just be miserable and not even know why. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a staunch harm-reductionist... I believe there are things a person should never do, for everyone's sake. But I struggle to see vaping as one of them, nor drinking, nor smoking. Some people can't keep themselves in check with these things, but that doesn't mean nobody should do them. It just means that as adults we all have a responsibility to know who we are and act in accordance with our ideal balance of happiness, responsibility, and productivity.

That's just a part of life. You can't mandate it out. Nor can one will away the need to integrate these things. It's not enough to just stop. It's a constant battle we all face. And not everybody fights it from the same position. But regardless it's like plugging a geyser. The water just pops up through the next shortest route through the weakest ground. People are not capable of eliminating every weakness from within, so whether or not you're successful in merely stifling/ignoring a vice comes down to whether or not anything ever happens to you that draws out another weakness. Depends on how life goes for ya and what your susceptibilities are. That's why you can't force a person to quit. The change has to be within you. And call me cynical but it isn't always... and that's just real. For those of us who know themselves to be that way in spite of our best will and effort, vaping is a wonderful thing. Looking at myself and the things I have been through and gotten past in my life, it's hard for me to see it any other way. To me, it's one less specter looming over me, freeing up more of my energies for focusing on other equally important problems. Whether or not it will catch-up one day, nobody knows. But do you ever? I'm not convinced that anyone is in enough control to say for sure, for me or anyone else.

At the end of the day, I just want to vape in peace. Why that is so complicated for people to understand is beyond me. I've tried everything. I even went cold turkey for a few months. Not a day goes by that you don't yearn for that morning smoke. It's tantalizing. Didn't matter what I did or what was going on. It's always there, like a bad breakup. Later on I would have a breakup that was legitimately about as damaging as they come, and to cope I rationalized that it wasn't as bad as the time I went CT. Hard as that may be to grasp, it really tore me down. Things started to really fall apart with my attitude and my ability to stay motivated towards the right things. I saw myself entering a dark path. I've been through too much of that shit to think that would end well if I just worked at it. No way, man. Something was wrong, something much bigger than the person I was at the time. You can think what you will, but it takes a lot of humility and self-honesty to admit that to yourself. And not the wholesome, rewarding kind. In order to be able to see that, you have to pull away big parts of yourself, which for most people feels kind of like dying. Not your body, but your mind. You have to weigh your options and accept that where you pull back might not be where you want to, just as you may not be as good to yourself as you wish you were. It's not every day you fight Goliath. And as nice as that story is, he may very well crush you, as he does others like you all of the time.

Going up against addiction is a series of conquests and setbacks. You don't ever know how things are gonna be or where you'll wind up when you actively decided to go to war with yourself. You're attempting to alter pretty major stuff. And it's not always for the better. You could win today and fall back twice as hard as you ever did 3 years later because of something you missed when you thought you understood. A lot of things that sound perfectly rational kind of go out the window. And unless the people, especially those who have never smoked and are against vaping can explain how to deal with that in a practical way, I'm not buying the suggestions to change what I'm doing. It's not helpful to take away something that's helpful to me and offer me something that I already know is far less effective for me, or worse, some lofty suggestions of willpower and determination... just because you're looking at your concerns and thinking it's better that way. Addiction is not an A-to-B affair. You jump around the whole alphabet just hoping to get closer to the letter B. It takes a lot of will and effort just to manage that when you're really hooked. I usually try to be nice, but it's so insulting to hear that from people who've never been through it with something that is really, truly gripping onto your soul. The reason it is an addiction is because finding the will to stop is hard, and often involves terminating parts of yourself or your life that you like and make everything worthwhile for you. It's something that's as psychologically dangerous to remove as it is to acquire! You live in mourning of the loss of yourself. If you don't know about it, don't mess with it!

But I digress. I was healthier, but not happy. Not happy at all. What's the point of being healthy if you have to make yourself miserable to stay there? By sheer will I quit as people always say to do, but willing yourself to be happy and satisfied is about as effective as a starving Ethiopian daydreaming about eating steak. Life was pretty good to me at the time, hence why I gave it a try. It would be then, if ever... right? But filling that hole isn't always so easy. Cold turkey is easy advice. And it works for a lot of people, but the real challenge comes after. Nobody ever has applicable advice for that. It's not just a matter of will or inner strength, but temperament, too. Another person's temperament is the hardest thing for a person to emulate internally, but it has great precedence over how you perceive and react to what you're experiencing. Steering into that effectively isn't so easy - you can't always see it in yourself. Sometimes it is best not to mess with other people's ways of coping with things. If you find you're not getting it, chances are that their control panel is at least little different from the only one you've ever seen, which is your own. Some people make it with gum, others with the meds (godawful experience for me,) others cold turkey, others with the patch, while others still never succeed with any of it... and then they vape and never look back.

This is part of why vaping is important and why we need to actually get to the bottom of this and figure out what is actually best for everyone. The more methods you have for trying to quit something, the better the chance is that one will stick and you'll make it work for you. If it's not harmful, people need to know so they can try in earnest to help themselves. And if it is unacceptably harmful, might there be a way to mitigate it so that it's still better than smoking? Is it even worse than smoking to begin with? Does anybody know? With vaping in the mix, we wind up with another good chunk of non-smokers in the world. People can say whatever derogatory things they want, but that's what it is really about. I think sometimes everyone else forgets that for a lot of us it's not just a hip thing to do, but actually a tool that helped us improve our lives in a big way. To ignore or discount that is to ignore the well-being of those very people, as well as the reasons for their choices. All that is left for rational people to do is look at the drawbacks to a world with vaping in it and find as many ways to circumvent them as possible. Everything else... is a misdirection to me, if I'm putting it nicely.


I'm sorry that so many of you have encountered some douchebag vapers! I'll never understand that stigma, though. Most I've met are not what you'd call "chain vapers" and tend not to think enough of what they're doing to run around proselytizing and waving it around in people's faces as the best, most healthiest thing ever. You don't immediately know them to be vapers by looking at them. We have setups specifically for going out that are far less obvious and intrusive to others, because nobody wants to be that guy. I've seen the stereotype, but that's really all it is, as far as I can tell. Mostly the younger crowd... which is like, no news at all. Young people are annoying! You don't say? :p But to me that's a few obnoxious types that get put under the microscope. Believe me, we all look and cringe at it with the rest of you. The rest of us are about as discreet as someone sipping their coffee, not running around taking huge rips off of their 200w+ box mods all of the time. We're almost trying not to draw attention to it. Like anybody else, we mostly want to be let be out in the world. It's not a full-on lifestyle for most of us, yanno? It's simply a minor lifestyle choice, like choosing not to eat at such and such fast food joint. But do you then point to that person and say "Oh, they're one of those people who only eats at Taco Bell... douchbags. Look at him with his Baja Blast. The greasy, smug bastard. I bet he treats his mother badly. Why can't they just get their lives together and stop eating at Taco Bell?" It just... it goes right over my head, this whole "vaper" thing that exists in people's heads.

It seems completely arbitrary to me, like this and that are not implicitly related. As if somehow picking up a vape either turns you into a different person, or vaping is only appealing to people with the oddly specific subset of negative attributes that certain people against vaping love to bring up. It's almost like they enjoy speaking ill of all of these people, whom they do not know. It seems out of place. These 'vapers' are caricatures. What really happened? Did a vaper do something to you? The wide-reaching inferences that people toss out about other aspects of people who vape don't make sense otherwise. That's just not how people work, you know? Obviously I'm exaggerating here, but it's not really as far off from the attitudes you often see as I wish it was! Sometimes I really get the vibe that some people out to bring vaping down aren't really looking out for anyone's well being so much as they are on a vendetta against a demographic that they dislike for their own personal reasons. Like how so many people who hate and speak out against the rich actually don't like the poor either, but saying they act on the poor's behalf is a convenient way to legitimize what is actually a jealous crusade. It's merely a platform, a stepping stone to a position of power that they somehow think is going to magically give them what they want. It is amazing, the shit people will say about their fellow humans when they have become overly convinced that they fully understand the other side and are themselves on the right side of something. I mean, it's really something! And nobody is immune. I see otherwise reasonable people succumb to it. I've even caught myself doing it.

Still, it's patronizing when I see people talk about vaping as though they are concerned for other people's safety and then in same breath talk down to those same people! It's just shitty. According to some people I am less of a person just because I vape, and need help looking after myself and reaching my own conclusions. Good luck with that one, buddy. That's really only ever gonna be a point of conflict. But then, it's hard to imagine those types speaking that way for any other reason... just looking for something that's easy to stand against. What is anybody supposed to think of you doing that? I'd be very cautious of the people you score points with...


Point is... vapers are mostly normal people, of all ages (ADULT ages lol) and backgrounds... people who vape typically think of themselves as being vapers far less often than people pointing the finger tend to. But it sure does draw a lot of stigma and ire these days. Do people think vaping is a cult? These strange dogmatic narratives always seem to creep up when bad press makes it out. And then, suddenly not only is vaping the worst thing you could do for your health, but most vapers are bad, stupid people too. Odd, considering the rest of the time, nobody cares and these people are nowhere to be found. What ever happened to live and let live? Oh, right... that went out the window when we all took to tribalism and picked our camps. It definitely makes things simpler, but you've got to wonder what the net outcome of any pro/anti issue is really going to be. It inevitably devolves into self-interest and the erection of echo chambers. It goes from well-intended question/idea to vitriolic crusade like that. * snap* It becomes a power struggle. People then look after viewpoints more than they do each other. It gets hard to see where that difference is. And then at that point people on both sides start saying equally ridiculous things. And that is where we are now at with vaping, as we are with so much of societies vast minutia. Really now... have we ever really resolved one of these things by blowing it up and going at eachother? :p

Worth saying, kids shouldn't be anywhere near this stuff. But good luck keeping it out of their hands. They buy everything from weed to dilaudid at school. Society has been fighting the problem of dumb kids doing dumb things from the very beginning. Don't seem to have made much headway, though I think we should continue to do everything we can to minimize the damage it causes. I think we could do more. I wish there was an easy answer there. I really do. I don't want to discount the implications for the affected... I just wonder what exactly caused it, and where some people get their ideas from. From where I stand, it seems like a bunch of reaching for answers that just aren't there yet, though of course we all want them to be right there when terrible things happen. And we want them to be what we want them to be so as to remain ourselves in light of it. Doesn't make the first piece of evidence in favor the only truth in it anymore than a lack of evidence demonstrates the truth you have derided for yourself. Goes both ways peeps. Regardless of what happened, it's going to be very particular and multifaceted.


I guess I had a lot to say here... this is a dialogue I've been following and participating in for many years - I needed this commentary on it lol. I know all of the tropes, beats, and narratives. I see the cycles. It's been the same crap over and over again with people looming over scraps of info like vultures, just taking it and using it to their own conflicting ends... fighting over it like it is one's job to completely obliterate the other. Given this, I think the whole thing is flawed in a big way. I think we're all being taken advantage of, by parties on both sides of the issue. Big time. I'm tired of it. We aren't any closer to figuring this shit out than we were almost a decade ago. In some ways, we're all further away. I sometimes wonder if we'll ever figure out where to place vaping in this world. There are too many factors involved. The pot has been so irreversibly stirred that one can no longer distinguish between who is doing good and who simply serves an ideological agenda.

No matter which side you're on, what's important to note is that if we are wrong, millions and millions of people will suffer. This isn't something to be taken for sport. It's not a friendly debate. It's not a grinding wheel. Which ideas we go with and how well we inform ourselves determines the outcome. How many millions of people die terrible deaths from smoking-related illness each year? What is the likelihood that vaping will not prevent many of those deaths? I vape and I support it, but even I don't know the answer to that one. I have my resentment towards certain factions (some of them vapers, even!) but the reality is that we don't know what we are playing with. I'm not just talking vaping here, but vice itself. Vaping is bringing us to questions many have never considered and so we struggle to sort it out.

There's a lot at stake and compromises that must be made. It's important that we get this right. Judging by how a lot of people broach the subject, I'm not convinced that they all share this attitude... not because they're opposed to vaping, but the why and the means by which they do so. A lot of it just is questionable, and I'm betting I would still think so if I didn't have passion tossed in. It's almost like some people want vaping to be bad. They want others to see how it leads to suffering, so that they can be right. They revel in these stories, as though it is somehow good, because it reinforces how they see things. When the reality is that people got really hurt and you are profiting off of that emotionally... maybe even monetarily. Same goes for people in favor who like to brush aside everything not in favor of vaping being safe, viciously attack those who oppose them, and set a bad example with how they integrate as vapers. They see it as an ideological war and will resort to any tactics they can, eschewing ethical integrity almost as often as the other side. None of that shit helps! An honest middle-ground is a better place for all of us. One where the fewest amount of people have to suffer and die from illness or bodily harm. That's what it's all about. And yet so many dance around that without ever seeing both sides of the problems at hand.

Everybody has their opinions on things... I've got my bullshit, too. But all too often when it comes to vaping, everyone just gets so far ahead of themselves and it's not helping anything. The basis of every argument is "reason to assume." You take this fact and say it's reasonable to assume that it's harmless based on that. Others take that fact and claim the opposite. And there's merit to both sides. It's a conversation worth having. I just wish people kept their finger on why that is a conversation worth having. It's a major public health issue that not only deals with all of these un-quantified physical/biological variables but questions of how individuals work and where we place addiction with regards to both individuals and entire groups of people.

There's a lot to talk about, but simultaneously nothing to really get down into, you know? That's all I see. A lot of people talking... far less repeatable, real-world information.

It's still a rabbit hole to the whole world. It's all gone too far, in so many ways. And both ways, too! I think it's all crazy... treating this stuff as harmless and proliferating it out like there's no risk as well as people just shutting it down and not even trying to see how we might figure out a way to make vaping a true force for good in a world of unhealthy lifestyles. We are just scratching the surface of what all this stuff is and what it means for all people. Much of what we know now will change drastically in the coming years. Right now all we have is some maybe very good, and maybe very bad things. We have to keep pressing forward before drawing conclusions and instituting them broadly. Some things are common-sense to implement, but the rest is just people talking afaic. And as long as everyone realizes that's all it is at this point, we'll get to where we ought to be with it.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
427 (0.27/day)
Location
Ohio
System Name Daily Driver (part time crunch) / Penny (full time crunch) / Wilson (full time crunch)
Processor Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.0GHz/ i7 3770K / i7 3770
Motherboard ASUS X-470 Plus - Gaming Tuf / older ASUS board / Standard Dell Vostro Mobo
Cooling Stock / Stock / Stock
Memory 16 GB DDR4 3000 MHz / 16GB DDR3 / 16GB DDR3 /
Video Card(s) EVGA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER SC ULTRA GAMING/ Onboard / Onboard
Storage Samsung 950 pro m.2 SSD 512 GB / 60 GB standard SSD / 500 GB 7200 RPM Drive
Display(s) Acer 144 Hz monitor and HP 60 Hz monitor / headless / headless
Case NZXT Case / Rosewill case / Dell Vostro Chassis
Power Supply 750 W Gold+ modular / 650 W / Dell power supply
Mouse Weird Corsair mouse that I like / headless / headless
Keyboard Logitech G710 / headless / headless
Software Windows 10 Pro / CentOS 7 Minimal / Ubuntu 16.04
I agree that pandering toward children, adolescents and teens is WRONG. Tobacco and Vaping products have no place there. It is happening and it needs to be stopped

Cold turkey is an effective method, it sucks to go through but it can be done. You have to think of the suffering period as temporary. It takes willpower but its the fastest way to get off things.
Not for everyone. I ended up smoking more than I ever did when I lacked the willpower and was off the wagon again. What is wrong with a product that is targeted toward me (a smoker with weak willpower)? I have tried all other alternatives (gum, patches) to no avail.
I always say that vaping just like you boil the chemical and drag it to your lungs, at certain points it's worse than smoking
It could be, but I know for sure smoking kills people. In my personal life, it has taken loved ones. In my mind, any means necessary to stop are valid including vaping. I do not plan on vaping for the rest of my life at all. There is a goal to quit this too, just slowly.

All that being said, I don't think anyone should view it as cool and trendy. I think it is a tool for me to eventually get better and eventually quit both.
 

Tatty_One

Senior Moder@tor
Staff member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
23,752 (4.27/day)
Location
Worcestershire, UK
System Name The Grey
Processor Intel Comet Lake Core i5 10600K
Motherboard MSI MAG Z490 TOMAHAWK
Cooling Artic Cooling Liquid Freezer II 280mm AIO + 4 Phantek 140mm case fans
Memory 16GB Patriot Viper Steel DDR4 4133Mhz @ 4000mhz 16-16-16-34 2T
Video Card(s) Gigabyte RTX 2060 SUPER Windforce OC 8GB
Storage WD Blue SN550 1TB M.2 NVME//SkHynix 120GB SSD//CrucialM4 64GB SSD
Display(s) AOC Q2781PQ 27 inch Ultra Slim 2560 x 1440 IPS
Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro M Windowed - Gunmetal
Audio Device(s) OnBoard Realtek ALC1200-VD1 @ 5.1 surround
Power Supply Seasonic Core Gold 650w Semi modular
Mouse Coolermaster Storm Octane wired
Keyboard Element Gaming Carbon Mk2 Tournament Mech
Software Win 10 Home x64
I don't know anyone who has said that vaping is safe but I know plenty that say it is much safer than smoking, our national health service quote it as 95% safer than smoking (however that is medically quantified) but we only have 5-10 years of research on vaping, what I do know is that Tar and Carbon monoxide cause the most deaths in the smoking community and there isn't any in a vape but as some have said, if it's not natural as nature intended then it likely is not 100% safe.

I smoked for 44 years and have been vaping for 3.5 years, I feel 100 times healthier than I did, I have no breathing issues and continue to run around 40 miles a week at 59. If my Doctor said to me...…. you need to stop because one in every 10,000 vapers die, I would agree with him but say that in this case I am a happy man as in Europe one in every 175 long term smokers die from smoke related disease, unless of course I died from damage the smoking already caused despite moving over to vaping.

At the moment NHS England are debating whether to prescribe basic vape pens as part of their stop smoking programme because they at least seem pretty convinced that it will cost them a lot less than treatment for all the lung, heart and cancer treatments. Whilst I am not in the business of telling anybody what to do, my best advice would be, if you don't or have never smoked, for god's sake don't vape and enjoy being 100% safe at least from these related illnesses. If anyone does decide to vape, hopefully to get them off smoking, use certified, quality controlled liquids/ingredients and don't mix some of that cr*p mentioned in that article.

For me...…….. the jury is still out :)
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
427 (0.27/day)
Location
Ohio
System Name Daily Driver (part time crunch) / Penny (full time crunch) / Wilson (full time crunch)
Processor Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.0GHz/ i7 3770K / i7 3770
Motherboard ASUS X-470 Plus - Gaming Tuf / older ASUS board / Standard Dell Vostro Mobo
Cooling Stock / Stock / Stock
Memory 16 GB DDR4 3000 MHz / 16GB DDR3 / 16GB DDR3 /
Video Card(s) EVGA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER SC ULTRA GAMING/ Onboard / Onboard
Storage Samsung 950 pro m.2 SSD 512 GB / 60 GB standard SSD / 500 GB 7200 RPM Drive
Display(s) Acer 144 Hz monitor and HP 60 Hz monitor / headless / headless
Case NZXT Case / Rosewill case / Dell Vostro Chassis
Power Supply 750 W Gold+ modular / 650 W / Dell power supply
Mouse Weird Corsair mouse that I like / headless / headless
Keyboard Logitech G710 / headless / headless
Software Windows 10 Pro / CentOS 7 Minimal / Ubuntu 16.04
@Tatty_One this is exactly what my experience is. Not a long term smoker here, but it is a tool in my eyes. Until they prove it is as dangerous, I will continue to use it to quit nicotine.
 

hat

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
21,415 (4.07/day)
Location
Ohio
System Name Starlifter :: Dragonfly
Processor i7 2600k 4.4GHz :: Athlon II x4 630 3.5GHz
Motherboard ASUS P8P67 Pro :: GIgabyte GA-770T-USB3
Cooling Corsair H70 :: Thermaltake Big Typhoon
Memory 2x4GB DDR3 1866 :: 2x1GB DDR3 1333
Video Card(s) 2x PNY GTX1070 :: none
Storage Plextor M5s 128GB, WDC Black 500GB :: Mushkin Enhanced 60GB SSD, WD RE3 1TB
Display(s) Acer P216HL HDMI :: None
Case Antec SOHO 1030B :: Old White Full Tower
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro - iLive IT153B Soundbar (optical) :: None
Power Supply FSP Hydro GE 550w :: something
Software Windows 10 Pro - Plex Server on Dragonfly
Benchmark Scores >9000
I agree @robot zombie I feel like it's kind of like when we were getting those "e-cigarette explodes in vaper's face" news stories all the time... and it usually turns out to be a mech mod or something that somebody did something stupid to. I've been vaping for years and never heard of this mystery illness until now... and my fiancee has as well. She quit smoking and switched to vaping back in 2015 when she was put on a ventilator with legionnaire's pnemonia. She still has very weak lungs and couldn't smoke a cigarette today if she wanted to but she can handle vaping fine. Her lungs are still improving, even. Of course, I'm not saying it's totally safe, that there's no risk... but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's infinitely less dangerous than smoking... unless you do something really dumb, like mess with mech mods you have no knowledge about.

This also brings to mind a few years back something came out about there being formaldehyde in e-cigs... but when somebody looked into it, the formaldehyde was being produced only when the mod was pushing way more power through the coil than what it was meant for, heating it in excess of 600*F. No vaper would ever hit a vape like that. We're talking about the mother of all burnt hits here. It would be extremely unpleasant, to say the least. Nobody vapes like that.

Stories like this are merely propaganda pushed by those who are extremely anti-vaping, for whatever reason, with certain details conveniently left out in order to best suit their narrative.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,147 (5.73/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2015
Processor Intel Core i7-6700K (4 x 4.00 GHz) w/ HT and Turbo on
Motherboard MSI Z170A GAMING M7
Cooling Scythe Kotetsu
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-2133 8 GiB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 5500 XT Pulse 8 GiB
Storage Crucial MX300 275 GB, Seagate Exos X12 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
 
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
1,400 (1.33/day)
Location
Cusp Of Mania, FL
Processor Ryzen 9 3900X
Motherboard Asus ROG Strix X370-F
Cooling Dark Rock 4
Memory 2x8GB TridentZ RGB [3600Mhz CL16]
Video Card(s) Asus ROG Strix RTX 2060 OC
Storage 970 EVO 500GB nvme, 860 EVO 250GB SATA, Seagate Barracuda 1TB + 4TB HDDs
Display(s) 27" MSI G27C4 FHD 165hz
Case NZXT H710
Audio Device(s) Modi Multibit, Vali 2, Shortest Way 51+ - LSR 305's, Focal Clear, HD6xx, HE5xx, LCD-2 Classic
Power Supply Corsair RM650x v2
Mouse iunno whatever cheap crap logitech *clutches Xbox 360 controller security blanket*
Keyboard HyperX Alloy Pro
Software Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores ask your mother
The level of ignorance to it all astounds me. Considering the vast majority, if not all of these cases were with shady cannabinoid vapes, which are pretty functionally different, it just sounds like virtue signalling to me. It should be a no brainer that you should only get your cannabinoid vapes from trustworthy sources. And if those are the issue, then address those! Why mess with nicotine vapes? At best it's ignorance. But I'm sure there's some dishonesty in there, too.

Everyone's caught up in the 'think of the children' line. Which yes, kids picking up vapes is a problem trend, but as someone who started smoking as a kid, like many smokers, I continued to smoke after the first cigarette, even though it wasn't even a good experience. I'm not seeing the real-life connection. Most kids who would have smoked instead of vaping still did it in spite of the lack of fruit flavored cigarettes. And then there's the flavored cigars thing, which almost no kids smoke as it is. But hey, since we're in the spirit of taking people's personal liberties away out of misplaced fear, why not? If it's flavored, it's gotta go, whether or not it is related.

It just... not only is this not an effective strategy, but it's actually hurting people who rely on the flavors to keep vaping more appealing than tobacco for them in their personal fight. Tobacco flavors just aren't enjoyable to the vast majority. We avoid them like the plague. Many people will sooner smoke than vape that stuff. And when you're a smoker of say, 15+ years, yeah... that is often what happens. The chance of relapse is much higher at that point. A seemingly small thing such as flavors will be the tipping point for that crowd. Those people are vulnerable on a level that most people are not equipped to understand. That's just the truth of it. They don't know. How could they? By thier own admission they would never do it, or put themselves in that position. But that should scream of the differences in psychological makeup. To dismiss it is just sad, man. It's really cruel.

There's also people just making the switch. Flavors can be a major appeal to adults looking to transition, as it is completely different and often more enjoyable. After a few months of vaping, I tried to smoke and couldn't do it because of how terrible they tasted compared to the fruity juices I was used to. It's also psychologically helpful to have fewer reminders of tobacco when trying to quit tobacco. The reason vaping works on a psychological level is because it's just close enough to smoking to satisfy, but not close enough to directly compare. That's what makes it one of the most effective smoking cessation aids we've come up with to date! I feel like this should be common sense. It should be obvious to anyone who's familiar with the ins and outs of tobacco addiction why adults might want what the flavors provide to help them along as they make that often very difficult and precarious switch, not just physically, but on a deep psychological level. I mean, many vapers who have successfully moved away from tobacco completely swear by their sweet flavors for a reason. Again, it's something that makes vaping more appealing in a time when your impulses are going crazy and you're looking for something, anything to ease that and get on with your day... something to take you away from those desires, instead of towards them. This is also why most people who try to switch with tobacco flavored 'cigalike' vapes tend to fail much more often than people running custom devices with flavored juice. The experience is just better, and so unlike smoking you forget why you wanted to smoke in the first place.

So no, I wouldn't say they're targeted towards young people. It's more like they just happen to appeal to them, as so many other things they ought to stay away from do. But then, so do cigarettes. What's with that? I smoked and used nasty, nasty dip as a teenager. And so did quite a lot of kids in school. And again, those products taste like ass to the vast majority of non-smokers. But we still stuck it out.

To me, it's incredible how well a good vape with the right flavor has worked for so many people. It's the most progress we've made towards battling tobacco addiction in a long time. But people seem to conveniently forget just how many people die from smoking related illness each year. How that happens, I don't quite get. You don't see the same outcry about cigarettes, even though the damage that we have documented far dwarfs everything potentially bad we've found with vaping since its conception. How did we get here?

This is in fact how fruit flavors rose to prominence, back when vaping was a boutique, grassroots movement. I was there. I remember when they started getting rediculously popular, and the things adult vapers had to say about it. They were emphatically grateful for finding a flavor that finally pushed them far enough to jump. Many of them had tried before with the tobacco flavors and failed in short order. Many vapers who have successfully gotten off of tobacco will insist that one of the first things you must do is find a couple of flavors that you love. And for most people that is either fruit, candy, or dessert. I don't care who you are or how old you are. When you find one you like it is so delicious you never want to stop... and it's surprising just how quickly you start to forget what smoking was even like when that happens. People can think it's all just people being fussy and tossing the kids aside, but it's not that simple at all. The flavors are important, very important. This stuff matters to a lot of people. And the fact that people on the other side won't ever, at the very least, acknowledge this, shows me the level of ignorance behind it. It's like in these people's minds, vaping can and has done nobody any good. How you can operate that way with us knowing what we DO know, and WHY it's become something popular, something that pretty huge numbers of ex-smokers have become very passionate about? Sure, there is a lot that isn't known, but it's like... cmon man! Really? How do you not see the impact it has had on so many people's lives?

We vapers have an adage... "I knew for a fact that smoking would kill me." And the fact that so many people are willing to take a risk in order to get away from that should tell you how dire of a problem tobacco addiction truly is in our society. How are we really sitting here looking a gift horse in the mouth when on the other side of vaping is something that kills half a million Americans every year! That's one in 5 deaths annually! Somebody please explain to me, given what we do know (and not what we DON'T because there are a lot of things we don't know about things we consume all of the time,) how we as a society can afford to let this opportunity go before we even know how it will shake down? If this is the new paradigm, how are we ever to progress? The logical conclusion of that mindset is to just stop going outside. Those people can do that if they wish. But the rest of us would like to be exempt from that, if possible.


I really just don't understand the rationale behind this at all. Not only will this do nothing to stop the people pushing out bad cannabinoid products that have seriously hurt people (as they're likely already doing some side-stepping,) but it's likely going to mean more smokers out in the world. And furthermore, there is not much of a case for how this is going to get vapes out of kids hands. But I have a suspicion... that kids just like mind altering substances. They like the buzz. They probably don't care how it tastes. That's just a small plus, when it happens. I shudder at the vile things I and many kids I knew consumed in the name of a buzz. Shit man, I drank 151 straight, in back to back shots as a teenager. 3/4 of that is straight alcohol. I didn't drink that for the taste! Hell, in our minds if it was nasty, that simply meant it must be good!

I just... how is this good in anybody's minds? Personally I think these people are using the incremental strategy. Appeal to the emotions of people who simply aren't aware of the human beings on the other side of this issue to get incremental, 'common sense' restrictions placed, until all that's left is the big one. Why does it feel like vapers and non vapers live in different universes? I can think of only one reason, and it's ugly. If you can find some way to talk to their gut, they'll go along every time. They'll distance themselves from the people affected and make caricatures out of them until they basically aren't real people to them anymore. Because that's all they have to go by. They don't have the means to see the dishonesty in the arguments. They don't know vapers, they assume shallow, nefarious goals of everyone involved, and so they don't hear anybody else talking and pleading them to consider that this might actually be helping a lot of people and may one day help someone they know and care about.

Remember, just as we don't quite know the risks, we also don't know the benefits to be at all untrue either. And that is very important. If we make the wrong move one way or the other, the damage done by our misstep will be equally huge. Now is not the time to get worked up in a moral panic. We can't afford to flop around on this one and make anything other than concrete, well-founded decisions. Anything beyond that stands to do immeasurable harm in the big, complicated picture that is public health. This shit is not easy to figure out! But maybe we actually try to figure it out instead of saying "We don't know." and sealing our fate for better or worse. I think it's far better to take things as they come. The media will say otherwise, but this is an isolated issue with a very specific cause. It is isolated in that the majority of users never experience this. Different groups and places, but same cause. We know what that cause is, and we could probably come up with a way to mitigate that specific issue without throwing everything else in the trash. So the only rational thing to do is address the particular risk we now know of and move on. One step at a time, we all become safer, and hopefully with the fairest compromises. An more importantly, with the least harm done! I promise you it is better than making these big leaps in judgment. That is actually hurting people. Like really, seriously hurting people. Though I suppose it's easier to ignore when it's people you don't know. So long as you are convinced that your kids are safe, it doesn't matter if a few thousand extra people start dropping from smoking-related illness every year because the one thing keeping the off of it was taken from them.

The issue of children vaping is systemic, to be sure, but that is something that goes far beyond vaping. That's a problem entrenched within the core of all humanity. And if we banned everything that children got into, there would be nothing left. We could go a lot further to educate them on the real risks, rather than instill fear and leave them be, though. We could try to be closer to our children in a genuine way... make them want to be honest... to want to look to you, as their parent, as someone they can really confide in. And then, we could accept that part of becoming an adult is making your own decisions - and that means making mistakes and learning to live with them. They're going to fight tooth and nail for their independence and they will find it... and there will always be BIG risks to that. And that means that you have to be ready to catch them when they fall, so they can learn how to fall better. You have to know they aren't perfect, know they'll mess up big time. And if you've done well, chances are everything will be fine. They will grow and your relationship will grow. And if not, chances are there will never, in our entire time in existence, be a reasonable way to prevent that. I don't feel good about saying that but the world is a harsh place full of harsh lessons. I have mourned the losses of people close to me for reasons beyond my control and wished there was an answer. I've made mistakes for which I still wish there was something to blame them on. But there isn't. You can't let that cloud your thinking on what life should be for yourself, let alone other people. Luck will always be a factor. Sometimes I think we're all just lucky to be where we are. We'll sooner figure out how to make all romantic relationships permanently successful before figuring out how to keep kids out of serious trouble. You do the best you can, but you don't go blaming this or that and dragging other people into it. That's no okay for us to do as adults. If only it was that easy, you know? We'd have it all figured out by now.

I don't want to mince words here. The crux of what's wrong with the 'think of the children' argument in this case is simple - there are some things in this world and this life that the government can't fix. Things that it keeps trying and trying again and again to mitigate that simply change positions in step, all the while losing time, faith, and precious resources/life forces. Human nature *may* just be a little bit larger than the confines of the law will ever be. It may be that there are certain problems in life where the best option is to address them as individuals, and mutually agree to actively try doing that and hold eachother to that and simply be there for eachother by integrating it into a coagulated culture, like we did when we hopped across the Atlantic. Seems more probable than trying to control each other like we do now with things like this.

Seems hard for people to imagine these days, which is strange considering libertarianism was a founding principle of this country. Everybody is all "Power to the people!" only up to the point where they encounter something that they A. find offensive or B. don't want to deal with. People like the idea of coming together and will briefly, but ultimately are terrified of what that really means... which is that they have to learn to trust themselves and their neighbors... trust that we are all just people who wish not to suffer, witness, or cause the suffering of others. No, we simply must be adversaries. It is then that they immediately become all for leaving their freedom and safety for Uncle Sam to worry about. I think we as people need to decide at some point whether we want to be more safe or more free. Personally I think being too scared to live and take on the responsibility and consequence of being individuals will be the death of us all - that was the best thing we ever did for ourselves way back in the day, and it's taken us so far that we take it for granted horribly now - all of these little culture wars and seasonal crusades we thrive on now only prove that point, but I digress. I just really don't want to live a life dictated entirely by power struggles and I don't like seeing that in my country. I have no hate for those people... only deep sadness and disappointment. It's no longer us vs them, but us vs us.

Seeing things like this happen is just depressing. This is something that has for a long time and could change still many more lives, but instead it's being leveraged as nothing more than a hip, dangerous new trend and we ourselves are allowing people who deserve that chance at a better, longer life to be swept under the rug for the sake of petty, half-baked, emotionally charged arguments and edge-case scenarios. I look at all of the people I have personally met in my life, who seem much happier and healthier, who speak of all of the things they can now do that they couldn't before, thanks to the very things that people in power now wish to see snuffed out, all the while shaping the dialogue to make it seem like there's zero good to be found... as though those people I have met do not exist. And people go along with it. We're all too happy to see each other take a fall just to feel like we're on the right side of things. Nobody smells the deception. They're almost happy to be taken advantage of, if only to feel like they're a part of something.


The way these people talk looks to me, as someone on the other side, like people talking about things they didn't know the first thing about until yesterday. I'm not talking the heavy stuff in the debates... just the basic facts we all know and agree upon. They often don't even know those. A good chunk of them don't understand how a vape works on a fundamental level, clearly can't see the glaring difference between different types of vapes, let alone the major differences between nicotine and cannabinoid vapes (as well as the ingredients - they think they're the same thing only one gets you stoned, which is dead wrong... they are FUNDAMENTALLY different in nature.) They're probably not even aware of what the flavorings are that caused this little outbreak. They only know of it because it is the new buzzword used to paint vaping as this terrible scourge. But then, if they were aware of that, they'd also know that the substances in question aren't typically, if ever used in nicotine vapes. This makes it impossible to even have a real conversation and do some honest risk assessment. Instead people jump at everything and move in favor of big sweeping motions that toss out the baby with the bathwater. How does anyone who claims to be interested in public safety not know the most basic things... not be willing or able to make the most basic distinctions? You'd think they'd want to know everything they could.

I mean, which is it? "We don't know and we should ban it." or "We know enough to ban it." You can't have both. Either try harder to prove this stuff or stop with the FUD. That's what I think. "Well, this happened, but we still don't know if vaping is dangerous... but we think it might be!" is getting old. I've seen causes for concern, but that smoking gun is nowhere to be found. If you want my opinion, no, vaping is not a 'healthy' practice - there is no way to make the case that it is good for you in itself. It is simply less likely to be nearly as harmful as what people are using it to get away from, which is a huge deal when we're talking about a problem that our society cannot keep less than half a million from dying from every year. Unless the same people have come up with a better way, we can only take the best chances we have... even if it is literally taking a chance. Because... and I dunno this might sound nutty, the whole "don't use tobacco solution" that everyone seems to think is best hasn't panned out so well for the millions of people who have died to it over the past few decades. Because they tried and couldn't. And again, we know how addictive tobacco is, but you don't truly understand just how powerful it is if you haven't been there. But a lot of us, we understand perfectly well, and do want to avoid that fate with everything we have in us. To say 'just don't' is almost an insult when you're past that point. Is that really all you've got? Do we think that a viable solution for alcoholics or heroin addicts? What percentage of people actually succeed going cold-turkey from tobacco? Wasn't it something like 22% that lasted 6 months? How many of those people stay off it for good? Because that already sounds like not enough. That would still be a 3rd of a million people every year, assuming all of that 22% succeeded. Actually.. it would be more still dying because that is 22% of roughly 60% in a group of smokers. Meanwhile the rate of people picking up smoking every year is higher. Again, to overcome that we need as many methods as possible, as everyone is different. Of all the methods we have, cold-turkey is the most effective for those who try it, but none of the methods available, including CT are enough to even come close to getting that number of deaths down to a more manageable level and maybe in turn de-normalizing picking up tobacco to begin with.

At the very least it is an intellectually lazy argument to make. I can't take it seriously. It basically amounts to saying that you don't really know what you're talking about, that nobody does, but your mind is made up anyway. I think a lot of things. I think there are things nobody should do, but they do them. And some things that I do, people say I shouldn't or they wouldn't (which by the way... totally fair to say. I respect your reasons, just like I hope that you respect my choice to do what I think is the best compromise for me - because that's what living is.) But I don't make policy decisions based on that, and neither should they. Fine line between looking out for public safety and attempting to delegate personal choices to law. We should know this well by now.

I mean, here we are, mounting to ban flavors of ALL vapes, because of something that never should've been used in any vape and never was used in any nicotine vape. But also because kids are vaping and we somehow believe that they only want the flavors. Our kids would never want to cop a buzz! Damn this blasted vaping, getting our kids hooked on nicotine with their watermelon and cotton candy! If not for that, they'd never use any drugs, ever! Our kids only like candy and sweets like good little boys and girls.

It just really blows my mind. The psychology behind it all is astounding.

The ultimate endgame here is that the only vapes left on the market will be owned and controlled by big tobacco... the only ones who can afford to get their products passed through the narrow, expensive, time-consuming channels. Us and our kids can all just enjoy our shitty, overpriced tobacco vapes. Or maybe we just smoke. And you can bet the FDA will do everything to delay and fail whatever vaping products they please. Previously they wanted $300000 per product. As in you pay them to review it, wait however long they feel like keeping you waiting and hope they approve while you sit around, unable to make money. Or more likely you go through this a couple of times only to be left with no money and nothing to sell and just pack it in.

So the people who started the movement are wiped out quickly, but BT-owned vape companies like NJOY, Blu, and Juul get to thrive with no competition and the FDA makes boatloads of money. People like to compare the rise of vaping to that of big tobacco. And yes it is eeeerrily similar but sometimes I think people must not know the history there so well. As in... the last time things went the way they're going with vaping now, we wound up at the mercy of these big companies, who cared not a bit for your children or your well-being so long as they made their money. They only stopped going for the kids because it was making the people keeping them in business look like they weren't doing their jobs. It's like this insane loop of mutual extortion. And branches of your government who were supposed to be looking out for your well-being allowed your families' and friends' ancestors to drop like flies from these products while they pocketed the cash. They took part in that mass-exploitation. And that's still going on. It may very well happen again, and cruelly enough the people who think they're on the other side of that history by pushing for these bans and regulation will be the very reason that history repeats itself. Can't put a tinfoil hat on me for that. We all know exactly what happened with tobacco in America, and how it came to be such a rampant problem. Why people think the government will do it differently now when it worked so well the last time is beyond me.

This isn't a very forward-thinking way to handle things. The only people left to compete will be the ones willing to do so illegally and people we've known for a long time only care about public health when it's shoved in their faces. And then alongside of that you will have people attempting to mix their own flavors up and using the wrong stuff. You've got another thing coming if you think your kids won't touch that. If it's there, it's forbidden, and it feels good, many inevitably will, no matter the hoops. And then they'll use that as a reason to tighten down more, even though they created the backdrop themselves.

And again, if people were truly invested in the issue and not just riding trends, they would know this stuff just from talking to people around them. You can't not see the contrast in the narrative when you're right there with the other side.

It's really crazy to me, how not only willing, but enthusiastic people can get about giving up liberties that don't directly affect them. Any other time they would call out lies and oppression, but with something that isn't in their immediate world it's like "Oh... I guess that's pretty bad from what they're saying. I don't want bad things! Get rid of it!" They don't even know what it is or why it exists. They just know they don't want it in their world, or even adjacent to it. Frankly, I find it pitiful. Why are people these days so bent on telling people how to live as to stoop to such ridiculous levels as to completely obfuscate any view other than their own? I thought we weren't into authoritarianism in America? Honestly I find the guise of doing this to protect people quite alarming, and part of a bigger issue we continue to see play out again and again. And then I look to the UK, who has the total opposite stance on vaping. I look at myself and my own life and can't help but wonder what I'm really being protected from that they seem not to be concerned with. What's the real reason for the difference in motivation?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
226 (0.37/day)
Why go all the trouble to vape good ganja ?, potentially spoiling it it's beyond me.

its because you can do it in public and not have everyone smell the skunk from 2 miles away.

Vaping oil and vaping actual herbs are way diff since there are no added turps to ole fashion herbs. Just stop smoking all together is my tip of the day :)
 

Tatty_One

Senior Moder@tor
Staff member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
23,752 (4.27/day)
Location
Worcestershire, UK
System Name The Grey
Processor Intel Comet Lake Core i5 10600K
Motherboard MSI MAG Z490 TOMAHAWK
Cooling Artic Cooling Liquid Freezer II 280mm AIO + 4 Phantek 140mm case fans
Memory 16GB Patriot Viper Steel DDR4 4133Mhz @ 4000mhz 16-16-16-34 2T
Video Card(s) Gigabyte RTX 2060 SUPER Windforce OC 8GB
Storage WD Blue SN550 1TB M.2 NVME//SkHynix 120GB SSD//CrucialM4 64GB SSD
Display(s) AOC Q2781PQ 27 inch Ultra Slim 2560 x 1440 IPS
Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro M Windowed - Gunmetal
Audio Device(s) OnBoard Realtek ALC1200-VD1 @ 5.1 surround
Power Supply Seasonic Core Gold 650w Semi modular
Mouse Coolermaster Storm Octane wired
Keyboard Element Gaming Carbon Mk2 Tournament Mech
Software Win 10 Home x64
I think San Francisco was the first major City to ban Vaping in public, it's beyond me therefore why smoking is not banned everywhere in public, I would still be interested to know if the vaping was "as a direct result" and if these people vaping were actually smoking significantly before they vaped.
 

64K

Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
4,606 (1.78/day)
Processor i7 7700k
Motherboard MSI Z270 SLI Plus
Cooling CM Hyper 212 EVO
Memory 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 2070 Super
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB and WD Black 4TB
Display(s) Dell 27 inch 1440p 144 Hz
Case Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition
Audio Device(s) Onboard
Power Supply EVGA SuperNova 850 W Gold
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Logitech G105
Software Windows 10
I know a few people that were able to quit smoking by switching to vaping. I also know 2 people that never smoked cigarettes but started vaping because they thought it was fairly safe.

I smoked cigarettes from 14 years old until 45 years old and quit a few times but picked it back up again later. So far I have quit for 12 years now and have no intention of vaping. I tend towards abusing substances like alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. I leave all 3 alone now except a little caffeine in sodas.
 
Joined
May 31, 2016
Messages
2,636 (1.48/day)
Location
Currently Norway
System Name Bro2
Processor Ryzen 2700X
Motherboard MSI X470 Gaming Carbon
Cooling Corsair h115i pro rgb
Memory 32GB G.Skill Flare X 3200 CL14 @ 2933Mhz CL14
Video Card(s) Powercolor 6900 XT Red Devil
Storage M.2 Samsung Evo 970 250MB/ Samsung 860 Evo 1TB
Display(s) LG 27UD69 UHD / LG 27GN950
Case Fractal Design G
Audio Device(s) realtec 5.1
Power Supply Corsair AXi 760W / Seasonic 750W GOLD
Mouse Logitech G402
Keyboard Logitech slim
Software Windows 10 64 bit
I tried vaping once since I'm a smoker. Normally I stick to regular smokes. I quit then get back on and so one. Vaping tried once and puked my house after trying. The liquids in there aren't good and you can get emphysema from it. Besides I dont think you will smoke less with vaping. You crank the dozes of nicotine to horrible levels. (my friends do that) All these are bad and people abuse those so legalization is not an option. What I read earlier somebody said that weed is better than alcohol due to the mellow behavior of the individual smoking it. Yes if you abuse alcohol the "psycho" behavior is released. That happens only when you abuse it. It won't happen after few beers. Marihuana is more addictive than alcohol and the problem is, after a while you can't even feel the difference when you smoke it. Which may lead to harder drugs abuse to feel the kick. Legalizing weed, because it is softer than alcohol, is not an option because it isn't softer. You may consider this as a foreplay before the party starts for real. :) Besides, think about what would have happened when suddenly you prohibit alcohol which has been in every culture I know for centuries. It's not happening, it will stay because it's been here for so long.

I see two options here.
Narrow down the consumption of drugs and alcohol by law. The "weak" will scream out "no freedom". Everyone should have freedom and do whatever pleases with his/her own life and be responsible for his/her own doing. So.... demonstrations and general frustration and media shouting "no democracy", "no freedom" etc. firing up the population to act.
Legalize everything will lead to one outcome. Only the strong will survive with a will to resist and the weak will perish. The weak will demand help from the country. Which will lead to country falling apart.
In other words, this is a problem.
Maybe there's 3rd option in a way of educating about the abuse of substances and the consequences. But, aren't we all aware what these substances can do to you and your life? And yet here we all are.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,069 (1.07/day)
Location
USA
System Name #1 Gaming / #2 Office
Processor Intel i5 8600K / Xeon W3680 @ 4.1GHz
Motherboard Asrock Z370 Taichi / Asus P6X58D-E
Cooling Phanteks PH-TC14PE CPU HSF, Arctic MonoPlus VGA HSF / CM V8
Memory G-Skill TridentZ 2X8GB F4-3200C14D-16GTZ / Samsung 3x4GB DDR3L Green 1600 30nm YK0
Video Card(s) Zotac 1060 6GB Mini ZT-P10600A-10L / XFX Radeon 7850 DD 2GB
Storage Samsung 970 Pro 512GB NVMe, Phison E12 1TB NVMe, WD Black 4TB HDD / Samsung 950 Pro 512GB NVMe
Display(s) Dell S3220DGF 32" 2560x1440 165Hz / Asus VH242H 24" 1080P
Case Lian Li PC-A05NB / Lian Li PC-A05NB
Audio Device(s) Audiotechnica ATH M50X, Antlion Mod Mic 4, SYBA SD-CM-UAUD, Xenyx 302USB / JLab Rewind Retro BT
Power Supply Seasonic SS-660XP2 660 Watt Platinum / EVGA 650P2 650 Watt Platinum
Mouse Zowie EC2-A / Zowie EC2-A
Keyboard Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless Red / Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless Brown
Software Win 10 LTSC 1809 / Win 10 LTSC 1809
Top