• We've upgraded our forums. Please post any issues/requests in this thread.

Hotel Infinity paradox (your brain will hurt, promise)

qubit

Overclocked quantum bit
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
14,548 (3.98/day)
Likes
8,052
Location
Quantum Well UK
System Name Quantumville™
Processor Intel Core i7-2700K at stock (hits 5 gees+ easily)
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 16GB (4 x 4GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 PC3-12800 C9 1600MHz)
Video Card(s) Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme Edition
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 256GB | WD Green 4TB
Display(s) BenQ XL2720Z | Asus VG278HE (both 27", 144Hz, 3D Vision 2, 1080p)
Case Cooler Master HAF 922
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty PCIe
Power Supply Corsair HX 850W v1
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
#52
Even tho the "speed of gravity" seems to be infinite/immediate otherwise if gravity propogated with slower speed every galaxy would fall part.
Gravity propagates at the speed of light.
 
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
5,026 (1.57/day)
Likes
1,271
Processor Intel Core i7
Motherboard MSI P67
Cooling Cooler Master
Memory Kingston
Video Card(s) temporarily Palit (formerly Inno 3D)
Storage Seagate
Display(s) Acer 23"
Case Thermaltake
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply FSP 700W
Software Windows 7
#53
lol at the posts about infinity
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,897 (2.22/day)
Likes
6,557
#54
Gravity propagates at the speed of light.
Yes general relativity says so. But it's confusing just like a spooky action at a distance.

In Einstein's theory of general relativity gravitational interaction is mediated by deformation of space-time geometry. Matter warps the geometry of space-time and these effects are, as with electric and magnetic fields, propagated at the speed of light. In Einstein's theory of motion, matter acts upon space-time geometry, deforming it, and space-time geometry acts upon matter.
Actually gravity cheats. It acts immediately because of the curvature of space-time. And even tho its speed is finite (c) it acts faster than light. In quantum mechanics word "faster" means using a shorter route, not having a faster velocity. Cosmic laziness, Geodesic Lines, Non-Euclidean Geometry and all that jazz .... you know.

The speed of gravitational waves in the general theory of relativity is equal to the speed of light in vacuum, c. Within the theory of special relativity, the constant c is not exclusively about light; instead it is the highest possible speed for any physical interaction in nature. Formally, c is a conversion factor for changing the unit of time to the unit of space. This makes it the only speed which does not depend either on the motion of an observer or a source of light and/or gravity. Thus, the speed of "light" is also the speed of gravitational waves and any massless particle. Such particles include the gluon (carrier of the strong force), the photons that light waves consist of, and the theoretical gravitons which make up the associated field particles of gravity (a theory of the graviton requires a theory of quantum gravity, however).
To get the answer we need to know all the theories: General Relativity, Special Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Quantum Gravity Theory, Theory of Everything, M-Theory, Expanding Space-Time Theory, Supersymmetry, String theory (D-Branes), Unified field theory. Unfortunately the current status of all these theories is incomplete.

for our universe it would be:

x1^2+x2^2+...+xn^2 = r^2, where n is the number of dimensions that the universe really has and r is a constant yet to be discovered.

Now to complicate things even more, I don't think the universe would be an sphere (remember what I really mean by sphere), but some kind of elipsoid. Same concept, various constants.
Ellipsoid has different r along each axis (for 3D it's a, b, c when a=b=c it's sphere), in that case for every dimension there has to be a separate r.

String theory and supersymmetry theory say that our universe is 10D. After the Big Bang 3 dimensions grew bigger but other extra 7 dimensions remained tiny, hence undetectable.

I digress but here's an interesting snip:

Gravity can be properly localized to a sub-spacetime. Gravity acting in the hidden dimensions affects other non-gravitational forces such as electromagnetism. In fact, Kaluza's early work demonstrated that general relativity in five dimensions actually predicts the existence of electromagnetism. However, because of the nature of Calabi–Yau manifolds, no new forces appear from the small dimensions, but their shape has a profound effect on how the forces between the strings appear in our four-dimensional universe. In principle, therefore, it is possible to deduce the nature of those extra dimensions by requiring consistency with the standard model, but this is not yet a practical possibility. It is also possible to extract information regarding the hidden dimensions by precision tests of gravity, but so far these have only put upper limitations on the size of such hidden dimensions.
In a nutshell: we are stuck in 3D space (there are other dimensions tho), but gravity can "leak" into other dimensions, and even from there it can affect our world. And our world with all its interactions also depends on the shape of those tiny dimensions. Some scientists think that extra dimensions got something to do with dark matter and energy. And maybe it's even possible to create a "shortcut" (wormholes) through the extra dimensions to our world, in that case we could travel with infinite speed and immediatley appear in any desirable spatial and maybe even time destination.





Wow my post is huge
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
4,561 (1.34/day)
Likes
2,700
Location
Kingston, Ontario Canada
System Name My Rig | Kids Rig
Processor Core i5 3570K @ 4.0 ghz 1.15 vcore | FX 8350 @4 ghz
Motherboard EVGA Z77 FTW 1.21 BIOS |Gigabyte 990FXA UDH (rev 4.0)
Cooling CM Hyper 212 EVO R2-push/pull with 2x 120mm PWM | CM Hyper 212
Memory Mushkin Blackline 4GB x 2 1600mhz XMP profile |G. Skill 4GB x 2 DDR3 1866mhz
Video Card(s) Sapphire RX 480 8gb | Asus Strix R9 390X 8GB
Storage Kingston SSDNOW V300 120/240 GB OS & Games / 1000 GB Data | 320GB OS / 500GB Data & Games
Display(s) Samsung S24D590 24" PLS 5ms 60hz refresh with Enhanced Sync | BenQ GW2270 22" VA 5ms 60hz refresh
Case NZXT 810 Switch |Thermaltake Soprano Snow Edition
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar DSX w/ Logitech z623 | Realtek
Power Supply EVGA SuperNOVA 750W 80+ Gold | CoolerMaster GS750M 80+ Bronze
Mouse Razer Diamondback Chroma | Tt Level 10M
Keyboard Razer Ornata Chroma w/ meka-membrane keys | MadCatz S.T.R.I.K.E. TE w/ Kailh brown
Software Windows 10 Pro | Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores Thanks to Norton/Lt_JWS/Guitar for the 2nd pc parts :)
#55
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
427 (0.17/day)
Likes
212
Processor X5650 @3,7 Ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte Ga-EX58-UD5
Cooling Cogage True Spirit
Memory 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX Fury 1866 CL10
Video Card(s) Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 1070
Storage 250Gb MX100 SSD+1TB WD Green
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 2560x1440 27" PLS 96Hz
Case NZXT Tempest
Power Supply Corsair RM750 750w 80 Plus Gold Modular
Keyboard Logitech K120
Software Win 10 Home 64 bits
#56
I think infinity is impossible so getting a right answer about question related with it is impossible.The question is stupid,if you try to answer you are accepting that there can be more infinities in the space of 1. This is like asking:if a ship flies at an infinite speed,another ship flying at double that speed would be faster?I go to sleep e_e
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
2,680 (0.89/day)
Likes
693
Location
Reaching your left retina.
#57
Ellipsoid has different r along each axis (for 3D it's a, b, c when a=b=c it's sphere), in that case for every dimension there has to be a separate r.
Yeah I know that. As I said, same concept but different constants. I went with an sphere to make explaining the concept easier and I guess I didn't explain myself properly anyway. Well, mentioning the sphere, I was just trying to explain the concept of "living in a surface", you know, to draw a parallelism between g (on Earth's surface) and c on our apparent universe. Speed of light could be any value, even infinite in the broader universe, and our apparent universe might just be that one (subset) in which c=300000 km/s.

String theory and supersymmetry theory say that our universe is 10D. After the Big Bang 3 dimensions grew bigger but other extra 7 dimensions remained tiny, hence undetectable.
Yeah, and isn't there one that says there's 23? What I think is that we don't really know how many dimensions are there in the universe. And whenever we find out exactly how many are there in "our universe", if we happen to live in a "subset" of a broader universe we might never find out how many are there on top of the ones that define our universe.

For example a living being that belongs to a universe with only 2 spatial dimensions would be able to sense or explain a 3rd dimension? Since his universe is just as "defined" by the lack of a 3rd dimension as he is, would he even theoritize about it's existence?
 

trickson

OH, I have such a headache
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
6,486 (1.36/day)
Likes
927
Location
Planet Earth.
Processor Q9650
Motherboard Gigabyte.
Cooling air.
Memory 4gb kingston
Video Card(s) hd 5870
Software win7 64 bit
#58
infinity is an abstract concept and does not exist in the physical universe, so linking infinity and physical things leads to paradoxes because the underlying assumption is wrong (that something physical an be infinite)

it doesn't stop you from doing math with it of course
I disagree , There are an infinite number of assholes on this planet .
 
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
2,470 (0.73/day)
Likes
613
Location
Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
System Name Dire Wolf II
Processor Intel Core i7 7820HQ (2.9Ghz, up to 3.9Ghz)
Motherboard HP 8275
Memory 32GB DDR4 2400Mhz
Video Card(s) Sapphire R9 Fury Nitro OC 4GB (Thunderbolt3 eGPU), nVidia Quadro M1200 (GTX750Ti) 4GB GDDR5
Storage HP NVMe 256GB
Display(s) HP Z27q (5120x2880) + Dell P2715Q (3840x2160)
Case HP ZBook 15 G4
Audio Device(s) Musiland Monitor 02 US, Skullcandy SLYR
Power Supply 150W HP PSU (for Laptop) + Corsair RM550x (for eGPU)
Mouse Logitech G400
Keyboard Corsair K95 RGB
Software Windows 10 Enterprise 64-bit
#59
I disagree , There are an infinite number of assholes on this planet .
That number is actually easily bounded, thus not infinite :D
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,897 (2.22/day)
Likes
6,557
#61
Yeah, and isn't there one that says there's 23? What I think is that we don't really know how many dimensions are there in the universe. And whenever we find out exactly how many are there in "our universe", if we happen to live in a "subset" of a broader universe we might never find out how many are there on top of the ones that define our universe.
26 to be exact but that's for bosonic string. And only 10 for the superstring (particles + interactions, aka our regular universe which modelled as vibrations of tiny supersymmetric strings).

For example a living being that belongs to a universe with only 2 spatial dimensions would be able to sense or explain a 3rd dimension? Since his universe is just as "defined" by the lack of a 3rd dimension as he is, would he even theoritize about it's existence?
Theorizing is always possible because knowledge science intuition and imagination ain't limited. Let's take simplex. 4D simplex is a pentachoron. Even it's hard to imagine but it can easily be formulated through the geometry. Well mathematically everything is always easier than visually.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
2,680 (0.89/day)
Likes
693
Location
Reaching your left retina.
#62
Theorizing is always possible because knowledge science intuition and imagination ain't limited. Let's take simplex. 4D simplex is a pentachoron. Even it's hard to imagine but it can easily be formulated through the geometry. Well mathematically everything is always easier than visually.
Ok yes, it could be theorized to an extent, but it wouldn't form part of science, even if someone could come up with something crazy, because it wouldn't be able to be proven or falsified. That's what I meant. For example, if "speed of light" (in the broad sense, the maximum speed that a non massive particle can achieve) is actually a dimension, or something affected by one dimension, and that just happens to be constant through our universe (maybe because that's in fact the trait that sets appart our universe from others). How could we prove it? c would still be constant in our universe, and if we have no means to "trascend" our universe I don't see how could we theorize something like that. If only c is affected by that dimension (or is the dimension itself) and it's constant for us, that's the end of it.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,897 (2.22/day)
Likes
6,557
#63
Ok yes, it could be theorized to an extent, but it wouldn't form part of science, even if someone could come up with something crazy, because it wouldn't be able to be proven or falsified. That's what I meant.
That's why scientists work on Grand Unified Theory. We can't even explain mass, we can't explain gravity. We can't find Higgs or graviton. We can't say will proton decay or not. Many things ain't proven it doesn't mean we have to chuck Standard Model or relativity. It all can be explained sooner or later. For that they just need to work in different directions such as supersymmetry, quantum mechanics, string theory and so on. And finally find something general which could be integrated into TOE (theory of everything). Extra dimensions, dark matter and dark energy shouldn't scare us off.
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
7,325 (1.91/day)
Likes
995
Location
C:\Program Files (x86)\Aphexdreamer\
System Name Unknown
Processor AMD Bulldozer FX8320 @ 4.4Ghz
Motherboard Asus Crosshair V
Cooling XSPC Raystorm 750 EX240 for CPU
Memory 8 GB CORSAIR Vengeance Red DDR3 RAM 1922mhz (10-11-9-27)
Video Card(s) XFX R9 290
Storage Samsung SSD 254GB and Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
Display(s) AOC 23" @ 1920x1080 + Asus 27" 1440p
Case HAF X
Audio Device(s) X Fi Titanium 5.1 Surround Sound
Power Supply 750 Watt PP&C Silencer Black
Software Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit
#64
That's why scientists work on Grand Unified Theory. We can't even explain mass, we can't explain gravity. We can't find Higgs or graviton. We can't say will proton decay or not. Many things ain't proven it doesn't mean we have to chuck Standard Model or relativity. It all can be explained sooner or later. For that they just need to work in different directions such as supersymmetry, quantum mechanics, string theory and so on. And finally find something general which could be integrated into TOE (theory of everything). Extra dimensions, dark matter and dark energy shouldn't scare us off.
Btw we've just recently found evidence for the Higgs Boson

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...on-First-hard-evidence-God-particle-CERN.html
 
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
2,106 (0.52/day)
Likes
371
System Name Norfree
Processor i5 3570k @4.4
Motherboard Gigabyte UD5H
Cooling 212 Evo
Memory 4x4GB Kingston 1600 @ 1833 9cl
Video Card(s) Sapphire Nitro Fury
Storage Corsair SSD, WD Black
Display(s) 1080p TV
Case Corsair 300-R
Audio Device(s) Auzentech Prelude > Fidelio X2s and AD-700s
Power Supply PCP&C Silent 950w
Software Win 10 Pro 64
#65
inifnity / 0 = mind blown
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
7,181 (1.90/day)
Likes
720
#66
Infinity goes on for ever so you can never fill up infinity. If new guests arrive then they would all have to move up rooms and those rooms would be filled up in an endless cycle because you could never fill them up. All those rooms all instantly exist at the same time.

At the same time every infinite room is already taken up so there can be no more room, which is why its a paradox.
 

qubit

Overclocked quantum bit
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
14,548 (3.98/day)
Likes
8,052
Location
Quantum Well UK
System Name Quantumville™
Processor Intel Core i7-2700K at stock (hits 5 gees+ easily)
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 16GB (4 x 4GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 PC3-12800 C9 1600MHz)
Video Card(s) Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme Edition
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 256GB | WD Green 4TB
Display(s) BenQ XL2720Z | Asus VG278HE (both 27", 144Hz, 3D Vision 2, 1080p)
Case Cooler Master HAF 922
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty PCIe
Power Supply Corsair HX 850W v1
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
#67
I see that people's brains are hurting nicely here. Don't worry my friends, the finest minds in science couldn't fully get it either and more than one went nuts trying...

Now, just try getting your heads around infinitesimals: teeny tiny non-zero values infinitely close to zero that you can never measure... :D
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
7,325 (1.91/day)
Likes
995
Location
C:\Program Files (x86)\Aphexdreamer\
System Name Unknown
Processor AMD Bulldozer FX8320 @ 4.4Ghz
Motherboard Asus Crosshair V
Cooling XSPC Raystorm 750 EX240 for CPU
Memory 8 GB CORSAIR Vengeance Red DDR3 RAM 1922mhz (10-11-9-27)
Video Card(s) XFX R9 290
Storage Samsung SSD 254GB and Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
Display(s) AOC 23" @ 1920x1080 + Asus 27" 1440p
Case HAF X
Audio Device(s) X Fi Titanium 5.1 Surround Sound
Power Supply 750 Watt PP&C Silencer Black
Software Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit
#68
Or trying warping your head around the fact that there is no such thing as the present, only the immediate past and imminent future.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present

Although I must point out early the grammatical meaning of the word does exist.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,897 (2.22/day)
Likes
6,557
#69
Or trying warping your head around the fact that there is no such thing as the present, only the immediate past and imminent future.
Yes because space-time is descrete (Planck time 10^-44 s and Planck length 10^-35 m as building blocks). Quantum mechanics might suggest that space-time is a quantum and not continuum thing. We know that space-time can be affected by gravity so maybe space-time is made of quantums and has a mass.
 
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
9,767 (2.99/day)
Likes
1,779
Location
Suffolk/Essex, England
System Name Joseph's Laptop Clevo P771ZM
Processor 4970k @4/4.4ghz
Motherboard *shrugs*
Cooling About 2 kilos of copper fins and pipes.
Memory 2x 8gb
Video Card(s) GTX 970m 6gb
Storage 500gb Msata SSD 2x 2TB storage drives
Display(s) Built in
Power Supply 300w power brick
Mouse Steam controller
Software Windows ten
#70

qubit

Overclocked quantum bit
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
14,548 (3.98/day)
Likes
8,052
Location
Quantum Well UK
System Name Quantumville™
Processor Intel Core i7-2700K at stock (hits 5 gees+ easily)
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 16GB (4 x 4GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 PC3-12800 C9 1600MHz)
Video Card(s) Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme Edition
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 256GB | WD Green 4TB
Display(s) BenQ XL2720Z | Asus VG278HE (both 27", 144Hz, 3D Vision 2, 1080p)
Case Cooler Master HAF 922
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty PCIe
Power Supply Corsair HX 850W v1
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
#71
Hey, trust a thread about infinity to go on and on.

Think about it. ;)
 
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
2,470 (0.73/day)
Likes
613
Location
Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
System Name Dire Wolf II
Processor Intel Core i7 7820HQ (2.9Ghz, up to 3.9Ghz)
Motherboard HP 8275
Memory 32GB DDR4 2400Mhz
Video Card(s) Sapphire R9 Fury Nitro OC 4GB (Thunderbolt3 eGPU), nVidia Quadro M1200 (GTX750Ti) 4GB GDDR5
Storage HP NVMe 256GB
Display(s) HP Z27q (5120x2880) + Dell P2715Q (3840x2160)
Case HP ZBook 15 G4
Audio Device(s) Musiland Monitor 02 US, Skullcandy SLYR
Power Supply 150W HP PSU (for Laptop) + Corsair RM550x (for eGPU)
Mouse Logitech G400
Keyboard Corsair K95 RGB
Software Windows 10 Enterprise 64-bit
#72
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
1,430 (0.60/day)
Likes
460
Location
A frozen turdberg.
System Name Runs Smooth
Processor FX 8350
Motherboard Crosshair V Formula Z
Cooling Corsair H110 with AeroCool Shark 140mm fans
Memory 16GB G-skill Trident X 1866 Cl. 8
Video Card(s) HIS 7970 IceQ X² GHZ Edition
Storage OCZ Vector 256GB SSD & 1Tb piece of crap
Display(s) acer H243H
Case NZXT Phantom 820 matte black
Audio Device(s) Nada
Power Supply NZXT Hale90 V2 850 watt
Software Windows 7 Pro
Benchmark Scores Lesbians are hot!!!
#73