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i5-8365U reaching 100ºC

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karmaikel

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It's a new HP Elitebook 8400 G6, with low cpu usage, less than 40% reaches easily 80º and it reaches 100º sometimes. It has a late 2019 bios so undervolting is not possible and I don't want to downgrade bios because it's an business laptop, not mine.

My main question is... is it ok to reach 100º sometimes? It may be ok for Intel but what about the machine longevity?

I have tried to play with Throttlestop's Turbo power limits... default turbo boost long power max is 18 and turbo short is 51, I've tried to low turbo short to 25 to reduce heat. Not great results.

I've tried also to change speed shift from 41 (4100mhz) to lower values like 32 or 36 (sorry, I have no screenshots) and neither good results, still high temperatures with lower speeds, does it worth to reduce speed just to stay away from 100º? And also some programs don't respect the 3200 or 3600mhz limit and go to the 4100mhz max speed, not sure why does it happen.

While testing... limit reasons... core-pl2 red and later pl1 red (those 2 and thelmal and edp other always yellow). Not sure what does that mean..

Any ideas/opinions? Thanks
 
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Seems a bit hot for sure, i would expect 65-80C. What are your normal room temps? Perhaps look at getting a cooling/fan mat or replacing the thermal paste (probably not a good idea if a work laptop).
 

karmaikel

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Seems a bit hot for sure, i would expect 65-80C. What are your normal room temps? Perhaps look at getting a cooling/fan mat or replacing the thermal paste (probably not a good idea if a work laptop).
These days the room is 26-27C... the laptop at idle stays near 40C, but it goes high very easily
 
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Seems like the room temp is fine as well as the idle temp. Almost sounds like a bad thermal pad on the CPU heatsink. Couple things i would try:
1. How old is the machine? Is it full of dust? perhaps clean the air vents/fans of laptop.
2. Use software to check fan speed. Speedfan/CPUZ?
3. Are you using your notebook/laptop on a surface that block the air vents?
4. Check for new BIOS or have your IT department look into it for you
5. CPU Thermal pads might be burnt/misplaced, check that out or have your IT department look into it for you
 

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Unfortunately thats just how the cookie crumbles... HP have taken a page of out Apples book and put too powerful of a CPU inside a chassis that doesnt have good airflow or cooling to deal with satisfactory level.

I compared your 840 G6 with the newer macbook air (2020) running a slightly weaker CPU (i5-1030NG7) and that CPU still throttled in the review. I wouldnt expect your laptop to be any different. They are both the thin ultra portable style of laptop.

HP & Apple arent the only people that have done this. So have Dell & probably a few more companies. In their eyes, so long as the laptop doesnt crash because its getting too hot - its within operational parameters which means they wont accept it back for RMA. Even if the CPU is getting so hot its thermal throttling - Nobody will accept it back for RMA unless the laptop is completely dead or in a state where its not really fit for purpose.


Sadly this is just one of the nasty practises that laptop companies have picked up. They dont want you to have a well made laptop that lasts till the end of time. They want your new laptop to die within a year so you fork out money for another one. This has always been Apple's main modus operandi.

if their badly made laptops keep you coming back to them and paying for repairs - they get paid more money, That is how they do business.

::EDIT::

Alternatively, You could try repasting your CPU with a good thermal paste. The temps could drop anywhere between 5-8'c if not more.
 
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Unfortunately thats just how the cookie crumbles... HP have taken a page of out Apples book and put too powerful of a CPU inside a chassis that doesnt have good airflow or cooling to deal with satisfactory level.

I compared your 840 G6 with the newer macbook air (2020) running a slightly weaker CPU (i5-1030NG7) and that CPU still throttled in the review. I wouldnt expect your laptop to be any different. They are both the thin ultra portable style of laptop.

HP & Apple arent the only people that have done this. So have Dell & probably a few more companies. In their eyes, so long as the laptop doesnt crash because its getting too hot - its within operational parameters which means they wont accept it back for RMA.


Sadly this is just one of the nasty practises that laptop companies have picked up. They dont want you to have a well made laptop that lasts till the end of time. They want your new laptop to die within a year so you fork out money for another one. This has always been Apple's main modus operandi.

if their badly made laptops keep you coming back to them and paying for repairs - they get paid more money, That is how they do business.
:(
 

karmaikel

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Seems like the room temp is fine as well as the idle temp. Almost sounds like a bad thermal pad on the CPU heatsink. Couple things i would try:
1. How old is the machine? Is it full of dust? perhaps clean the air vents/fans of laptop.
2. Use software to check fan speed. Speedfan/CPUZ?
3. Are you using your notebook/laptop on a surface that block the air vents?
4. Check for new BIOS or have your IT department look into it for you
5. CPU Thermal pads might be burnt/misplaced, check that out or have your IT department look into it for you
1. is new
2. hwinfo says there are two fans, they go from 960rpm idle to 3900 load, both similar reads, but not equal
3. no, it's over a flat surface and no obstacles
4-5. I'm not sure my IT is going to do anything like that... and anyway I'm still teleworking due to covid19

But my question is, maybe there's nothing wrong with my laptop and it's a design decission to reach those temperatures to get max speed? The problem is with low time high cpu tasks, but it seems that's a big problem with a lot of laptops... (I'm new in this "world of laptops", didn't know about these problems)

They want your new laptop to die within a year so you fork out money for another one.
Within a year? I don't hope so, and in that case there would be a lot of people at my office in trouble recovering work and files from hard disks, reinstalling new software in replacement computers, that takes time/money and maybe HP wouldn't be chosen for replacements...
 

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When you use your laptop. try propping the back of it up with a book. so long as its 1 or 2cm off the desk, maybe it will run a little cooler.
 
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Unfortunately thats just how the cookie crumbles... HP have taken a page of out Apples book and put too powerful of a CPU inside a chassis that doesnt have good airflow or cooling to deal with satisfactory level.
It's a 15W TDP Processor.
For some reason it's hitting it's power limits, hence the red pl1 and pl2.
Try undervolting it using Throttlestop and disable turbo boost.
 
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It's a new HP Elitebook 8400 G6, with low cpu usage, less than 40% reaches easily 80º and it reaches 100º sometimes. It has a late 2019 bios so undervolting is not possible and I don't want to downgrade bios because it's an business laptop, not mine.

My main question is... is it ok to reach 100º sometimes? It may be ok for Intel but what about the machine longevity?

I have tried to play with Throttlestop's Turbo power limits... default turbo boost long power max is 18 and turbo short is 51, I've tried to low turbo short to 25 to reduce heat. Not great results.

I've tried also to change speed shift from 41 (4100mhz) to lower values like 32 or 36 (sorry, I have no screenshots) and neither good results, still high temperatures with lower speeds, does it worth to reduce speed just to stay away from 100º? And also some programs don't respect the 3200 or 3600mhz limit and go to the 4100mhz max speed, not sure why does it happen.

While testing... limit reasons... core-pl2 red and later pl1 red (those 2 and thelmal and edp other always yellow). Not sure what does that mean..

Any ideas/opinions? Thanks
I have a MacBook Pro 13", with a similar CPU, and while it idles at around 35º, under load (for instance an Handbrake conversion) it easily stays above 90/95º, and it throttles down to 3.1/3.2 GHz.
There is very little you can do on those thin notebooks.

Unfortunately thats just how the cookie crumbles... HP have taken a page of out Apples book and put too powerful of a CPU inside a chassis that doesnt have good airflow or cooling to deal with satisfactory level.

I compared your 840 G6 with the newer macbook air (2020) running a slightly weaker CPU (i5-1030NG7) and that CPU still throttled in the review. I wouldnt expect your laptop to be any different. They are both the thin ultra portable style of laptop.

HP & Apple arent the only people that have done this. So have Dell & probably a few more companies. In their eyes, so long as the laptop doesnt crash because its getting too hot - its within operational parameters which means they wont accept it back for RMA. Even if the CPU is getting so hot its thermal throttling - Nobody will accept it back for RMA unless the laptop is completely dead or in a state where its not really fit for purpose.


Sadly this is just one of the nasty practises that laptop companies have picked up. They dont want you to have a well made laptop that lasts till the end of time. They want your new laptop to die within a year so you fork out money for another one. This has always been Apple's main modus operandi.

if their badly made laptops keep you coming back to them and paying for repairs - they get paid more money, That is how they do business.

::EDIT::

Alternatively, You could try repasting your CPU with a good thermal paste. The temps could drop anywhere between 5-8'c if not more.
you are right and wrong in the same post.
You are right about thermal decisions by many manufacturers (poor decisions in my opinion).
But you are wrong about durability. An Intel CPU won't die in one year because it is operating at 90º.
They are designed to operate up to 100º, and the "emergency shutdown" starts at 125/130º.
There are mechanisms in place to prevent the CPU to pass the 100º mark.

and according to many users here and on other forums, repasting isn't going to improve things most of the times.

1. is new
2. hwinfo says there are two fans, they go from 960rpm idle to 3900 load, both similar reads, but not equal
3. no, it's over a flat surface and no obstacles
4-5. I'm not sure my IT is going to do anything like that... and anyway I'm still teleworking due to covid19

But my question is, maybe there's nothing wrong with my laptop and it's a design decission to reach those temperatures to get max speed? The problem is with low time high cpu tasks, but it seems that's a big problem with a lot of laptops... (I'm new in this "world of laptops", didn't know about these problems)



Within a year? I don't hope so, and in that case there would be a lot of people at my office in trouble recovering work and files from hard disks, reinstalling new software in replacement computers, that takes time/money and maybe HP wouldn't be chosen for replacements...
Nope. Your laptop isn't going to die in one year. At least not for this reason.
There are Apple laptops operating in that range of temperatures still working after 10+ years.
Just try a little undervolt, if you can, and if you really are not comfortable with those temperatures limit the Turbo Ratio 100/200 Mhz below the maximum. You could also play with Speed Shift EPP to avoid the CPU ramping up in an aggressive way. A value around 128 should work.

It's a 15W TDP Processor.
For some reason it's hitting it's power limits, hence the red pl1 and pl2.
Try undervolting it using Throttlestop and disable turbo boost.
I wouldn't disable Turbo Boost entirely, if not as a last chance measure.
It would hit performance very badly (that CPU has a quite low base frequency of 1.6 GHz).
Maybe just reduce the all-cores Turbo Ratio from 4.1 GHz to a more reasonable 3.9 GHz.
 
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karmaikel

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As I said my laptop doesn't allow to undervolt (not sure if underpower) and I can't downgrade bios... I'd have 3 options

1 speedshift in main window, play between 0 and 255, 128 looks ok, but even that convervative setting doesn't avoid the cpu to reach 90º sometimes
2 turbo power limits, change power short max to a lower value
3 turbo power limits screen, change speedshift from 1.41 to 1.3x (and don't understand why this section is call speedshift when it looks like a multiplier limiter)

the option 1 works, but 2 and 3 not always... not sure if I'm doing something wrong. For me best option would be 3 limited to 1.36 for example. This option for example works while doing benchmarks on Throttlestop, but not on another programs
 
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Broken fan?

As per my sig I'm not a believer that an 8th gen CPU already has thermal paste issues. Or ever within its lifetime.

It's a 15W TDP Processor.
For some reason it's hitting it's power limits, hence the red pl1 and pl2.
Try undervolting it using Throttlestop and disable turbo boost.
Also this. 15W. If air is not moving, you can't cool that and no voltage will help you.
 

karmaikel

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Broken fan?

As per my sig I'm not a believer that an 8th gen CPU already has thermal paste issues. Or ever within its lifetime.



Also this. 15W. If air is not moving, you can't cool that and no voltage will help you.
Fan seems to work, after the load temperature goes down fast, and you can feel the warm air going out from the holes (and the fan noise, pretty strong)
 
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Unfortunately thats just how the cookie crumbles... HP have taken a page of out Apples book and put too powerful of a CPU inside a chassis that doesnt have good airflow or cooling to deal with satisfactory level.

I compared your 840 G6 with the newer macbook air (2020) running a slightly weaker CPU (i5-1030NG7) and that CPU still throttled in the review. I wouldnt expect your laptop to be any different. They are both the thin ultra portable style of laptop.
That kind of speculation doesn't really help the OP. Different brands, different CPU architectures that are also manufactured in different process nodes. Too many variables.
The MB Air (left) is all battery, while the Elitebook (right) has a larger cooler and fan.
1591138038963.png 1591138082120.png
Overall, the two Intel 8050U/8060U series aren't really known for running hot.

Compare it to review numbers of the OP's model instead, or something close to it. Here's the 840 G6 with the faster 8565 CPU, it only goes beyond 70° C for the first 10 seconds of full load, and stays under 70° C after that.

The 840 G5, which shares the same chassis as Elitebook 800 chassis comes in pairs (G1 & G2 identical, G3 & G4 identical , etc..), reaches 66° C in Prime95 here, and it does not throttle. While I do expect the 8365U to run a bit hotter than the 8250U, it should be just a small increase tho. The same goes for their test of the smaller 850 G5 with a 8550U, no issues there either.

Over the course of six years, the 840 has gone from 21 to 18 mm thick. That's not dramatic compared to other models, even though it's not something I personally like. Also, the Elitebook is still more box shaped, while the Air is more of a wedge. I have an 840 G2, the fan is off for long periods of time. HP shaved off a few mm's just by abandoning the most user friendly maintenance hatch ever (easier than some tower desktop cases).
HP has made some really bad laptops over the years, but the Elitebook and Probook series are usually high quality, and quite different from the consumer models. Some components like choice of display panel are sometimes subpar, but cooling is rarely a problem.

Any ideas/opinions?
What temp do you get when nothing is running, after a reboot for instance? Shut down programs running in the background if needed. What's the fan speed at this point?

HP Elitebook warrany is usually tied to the serial number, no need of a receipt, or similar proof of purchase. If your IT department can't help you, you should get in contact with HP directly and describe your issues.

Does it have AMD graphics? If you don't know, check the ProdID at the underside. For instance, my model is H9W20EA.
1591135944482.png
 
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As I said my laptop doesn't allow to undervolt (not sure if underpower) and I can't downgrade bios... I'd have 3 options

1 speedshift in main window, play between 0 and 255, 128 looks ok, but even that convervative setting doesn't avoid the cpu to reach 90º sometimes
2 turbo power limits, change power short max to a lower value
3 turbo power limits screen, change speedshift from 1.41 to 1.3x (and don't understand why this section is call speedshift when it looks like a multiplier limiter)

the option 1 works, but 2 and 3 not always... not sure if I'm doing something wrong. For me best option would be 3 limited to 1.36 for example. This option for example works while doing benchmarks on Throttlestop, but not on another programs
Well, if it reaches 90º sometimes under load it is not an issue.
I would set EPP to 128 and live with it.
I wouldn't touch Turbo Power Limits, that are already quite low on that notebook, but you could limit maximum Turbo Ratio by 100/200 Mhz to avoid "spikes" of temperature.

Compare it to review numbers of the OP's model instead, or something close to it. Here's the 840 G6 with the faster 8565 CPU, it only goes beyond 70° C for the first 10 seconds of full load, and stays under 70° C after that.

The 840 G5, which shares the same chassis as Elitebook 800 chassis comes in pairs (G1 & G2 identical, G3 & G4 identical , etc..), reaches 66° C in Prime95 here, and it does not throttle. While I do expect the 8365U to run a bit hotter than the 8250U, it should be just a small increase tho. The same goes for their test of the smaller 850 G5 with a 8550U, no issues there either.

Over the course of six years, the 840 has gone from 21 to 18 mm thick. That's not dramatic compared to other models, even though it's not something I personally like. Also, the Elitebook is still more box shaped, while the Air is more of a wedge. I have an 840 G2, the fan is off for long periods of time. HP shaved off a few mm's just by abandoning the most user friendly maintenance hatch ever (easier than some tower desktop cases).
HP has made some really bad laptops over the years, but the Elitebook and Probook series are usually high quality, and quite different from the consumer models. Some components like choice of display panel are sometimes subpar, but cooling is rarely a problem.
In those reviews the notebooks are throttling like crazy.
The 840 G6 stays under 70º because the CPU is running at 2.3 GHz down from the maximum all cores frequency of 4.1 GHz.
On the other review the 840G5 reaches 66º because it is running at a very low 2.4 GHz down from the theoretical 3.4 GHz. And if you stress both CPU and GPU according to the review the CPU is going down to a ridiculous 1.4 GHz.
This is calling throttling.
HP made the choice to sacrifice performance to keep the CPU relatively cold and quiet.
 
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HP made the choice to sacrifice performance to keep the CPU relatively cold and quiet.
Going lower than maximum speed isn't always the same as throttling. I was referring to base clock speed. The main point here is that the OP's laptop behaves very differently than the reviewed ones.
 
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Going lower than maximum speed isn't always the same as throttling. I was referring to base clock speed. The main point here is that the OP's laptop behaves very differently than the reviewed ones.
It is not "thermal throttling" , but it is still throttling ;)
And in some cases during those tests they went even lower than base speed...

I agree with your point about his notebook's behavior being different from the reviewed one, but are we speaking about the same model ? Maybe HP changed their mind regarding thermal policy in the new models, allowing for higher temperatures. I don't know.
What I know is that I would prefer a CPU running at 3.5/3.7 GHz and 90º under load than one that gives me 70º at 2.4 GHz.
My two cents.
 

karmaikel

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Going lower than maximum speed isn't always the same as throttling. I was referring to base clock speed. The main point here is that the OP's laptop behaves very differently than the reviewed ones.
It is not "thermal throttling" , but it is still throttling ;)
And in some cases during those tests they went even lower than base speed...

I agree with your point about his notebook's behavior being different from the reviewed one, but are we speaking about the same model ? Maybe HP changed their mind regarding thermal policy in the new models, allowing for higher temperatures. I don't know.
What I know is that I would prefer a CPU running at 3.5/3.7 GHz and 90º under load than one that gives me 70º at 2.4 GHz.
My two cents.
Intel Core i7-8565U (15W TDP)0:02 – 0:10 sec0:15 – 0:30 sec10:00 – 15:00 min
HP EliteBook 840 G63.11 GHz (B+73%) @ 85°C2.18 GHz (B+21%) @ 69°C2.25 GHz (B+25%) @ 67°C
These are my numbers with Cinebench R15 (score 535)

-first 15 secs: 3.7 GHz @ 98º
-from sec 15 to ¿2 or 3? minutes: 2.5 GHz @ 73º

Slightly higher frecuencies, I don't know if there's a fault on my setup or maybe is doing ok being faster though hotter...

I'll try to work with speedshift 128, is there any option to set up that besides Throttlestop? I like Throttlestop but I shouldn't run external software on that laptop, is there anyway to do the same within Windows?
 
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These are my numbers with Cinebench R15 (score 535)

-first 15 secs: 3.7 GHz @ 98º
-from sec 15 to ¿2 or 3? minutes: 2.5 GHz @ 73º

Slightly higher frecuencies, I don't know if there's a fault on my setup or maybe is doing ok being faster though hotter...

I'll try to work with speedshift 128, is there any option to set up that besides Throttlestop? I like Throttlestop but I shouldn't run external software on that laptop, is there anyway to do the same within Windows?
According to those numbers your cpu is just more aggressive in ramping up clock, at least initially. Which is ok in my opinion.
if you want to fine tune its behavior you need ThrottleStop.

you could manage Speed Shift EPP using powercfg /s SCHEME_BALANCED in the command line, but it doesn’t work for every laptop and you don’t really have control on what you are setting.
i don’t know if your notebook has an application to control power states already installed by the manufacturer (usually only on gaming laptops).
btw to use ThrottleStop is absolutely safe.
 
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System Name Avell old monster - Workstation T1 - HTPC
Processor i7-3630QM\i7-5960x\Ryzen 3 2200G
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Video Card(s) HD 7970M \ EVGA GTX 980\ Vega 8
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- In the windows power profile, limit the maximum CPU state to 80% or less.
- Use a cooler base or at least something to keep the laptop slightly raised so the air goes underneath.
 
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System Name Dell G7 7790
Processor i7-9750H
Motherboard Dell
Memory 32 Gb HyperX
Video Card(s) RTX 2070
Storage 256 Gb NVMe + 1 Tb SSD
Display(s) msi Optix MAG241C
Mouse Razer Basilisk
Keyboard Razer Ornata Chroma
Benchmark Scores 3dMark TimeSpy - 7168 (CPU 7068 - GPU 7186) Cinebench R20 - 2960
- In the windows power profile, limit the maximum CPU state to 80% or less.
- Use a cooler base or at least something to keep the laptop slightly raised so the air goes underneath.
Not every notebook has access to Windows Power Profile, unfortunately.
On a Dell you can only create a power profile with screen off and suspension time. No access to cpu state.
i don’t know about HP.

EDIT: I just found that on many computer if you LEFT CLICK on the battery icon you can access power settings slide
 
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karmaikel

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- In the windows power profile, limit the maximum CPU state to 80% or less.
- Use a cooler base or at least something to keep the laptop slightly raised so the air goes underneath.
If I put the maximum cpu to anything below 100% it just disables turbo
 
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What I know is that I would prefer a CPU running at 3.5/3.7 GHz and 90º under load than one that gives me 70º at 2.4 GHz.
There's not much to do about that in a locked down laptop.

Besides, the OP said up to 80° while under 40 % load, that sounded weird to me.

@karmaikel: Does the laptop have an AMD GPU?
 

karmaikel

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There's not much to do about that in a locked down laptop.

Besides, the OP said up to 80° while under 40 % load, that sounded weird to me.

@karmaikel: Does the laptop have an AMD GPU?
No, it has no gpu

The 80º in a 40% load for example was executing this vbs script

while true
wend

it just goes up very fast, even with no demanding tasks. I guess it is its design. At the icon tray there is a tool where you can select 3 profiles, battery saver, balanced and performance. All my tests are on the balanced profile. With performance it doesn't go below base frequencies at idle, I don't like that.

Thanks for the answers. When I started this thread I thought that 100º was a dangerous temperature, 1º near some kind of 'meltdown', but @Max(IT) said emergency shutdowns are at 125/130C so I'm more or less safe. And the laptop is not even mine so I shouldn't care about it so much but I like things work properly and curious but the thermal configurations (my desktop pc never goes beyond 55C while gaming)

Now I know if one day a buy a laptop I will be very careful about its thermals...
 
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System Name Avell old monster - Workstation T1 - HTPC
Processor i7-3630QM\i7-5960x\Ryzen 3 2200G
Cooling Stock.
Memory 2x4Gb @ 1600Mhz
Video Card(s) HD 7970M \ EVGA GTX 980\ Vega 8
Storage SSD Sandisk Ultra li - 480 GB + 1 TB 5400 RPM WD - 960gb SDD + 2TB HDD
If I put the maximum cpu to anything below 100% it just disables turbo
The laptop looks a little warmer than in the reviews. If the bios locked to undervolt there are not many options... you can still change the thermal paste or lower the ambient temperature.

Such high temperatures will undoubtedly shorten the life of the laptop.
 
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