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i7 10750h undervolting questions MSI GE75

gustavoemcoma

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Hey fellows,

I currently have the MSI GE75 10sfs Laptop (I7 10750H + 2070super + 32GB). In most games the CPU runs in temperature around 92-95c causing CPU throttling.
To try to solve it initially I bought a cooler pad but without the efficiency I wanted, I got just 2c lower.
Searching further, I found the undervolt solution and for that I unlocked the XTU in Bios and got the Throttlestop 9.2.
Before the undervolting my score were:
-3d mark(timespy)- 7918 (cpu 6644-gpu-8190)
-Cinebench : 2846
Temps in games: 85-97c
I researched some values for the offset voltage to CPU core and cache, however specifically for this processor there are not many tests, only for the i7 9750h.I initially tried the values of -100 (core/cash) and the temperatures were 95 to 70c. However, the OS get STUCK with a few minutes, not BSOD, but stuck, NO SUCCESS. Then I tried with -090 and it also unsuccessful. Then I`ve moved it to -045 and so far without crashes .
I also changed the TPL to 60 135
After that the benchmarks went to:
-3d mark(timespy)- 7855 (cpu 6113-gpu-8271)
-Cinebench : 2527
Temps about 75c

So I would like tips / advice's on what I can change in the software settings for better thermal optimization and performance. I'd appreciate it very much.

Thanks

1597886638837.png


1597886702697.png
 

unclewebb

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A Speed Shift Max setting of 36 will reduce performance whether 1 core is active or all 6 cores are active. Are you trying to make your laptop run poorly?

Running a gaming laptop at a maximum temperature of 75°C will result in reduced performance. Intel CPUs are designed so they can run reliably at very high temperatures. I think your Speed Shift Max setting is reducing too much performance.

If your heatsink and fan cannot handle full performance, try reducing your turbo power limits a little. First set Speed Shift Max back to 50. Instead of 60W for the long term turbo power limit, try 55W and see how your temperatures do. Instead of 135W for the short power limit, try something more reasonable like 80W. You might also want to reduce the turbo time limit so the CPU spends less time at 80W before switching to the 55W long power limit.

Going from -90 mV to -45 mV is a big step. Try finding a better compromise between those two values that is going to be stable. There is no need to set these two voltage equal. Once you find a stable value between -90 mV and -45 mV, leave the cache offset alone and see if you can adjust the core offset further. Use Cinebench R20 for testing purposes. It is consistent and it is a good stability test so she can watch your temperatures, etc., as this benchmark is running.
 
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System Name MSI GE75 Raider
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The MSI GE75 wont cpu throttle until it hits 95C exactly, my max stable under-volt is .080v. The i7 10750h doesnt under-volt that well compared with 8750h or 9750h. Try to overclock the memory or lower the memory timings, you can do that in the Bios.
I have the same model laptop.
 
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gustavoemcoma

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Thanks for your feedback guys the biggest goal on those changes would be to lower the CPU thermals from 95 to maybe 85c, without losing a lot of performance.
When I deactivate the turbo, the temps keep around 70, but I also lose a lot of performance.
I'm looking for a balance between performance-temperature (85 max)

Thank you guys
 
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Thanks for your feedback guys the biggest goal on those changes would be to lower the CPU thermals from 95 to maybe 85c, without losing a lot of performance.
When I deactivate the turbo, the temps keep around 70, but I also lose a lot of performance.
I'm looking for a balance between performance-temperature (85 max)

Thank you guys
Intel laptop processors are design for high temps, dont worry, you're good.
 

gustavoemcoma

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Thanks,
Another question, although I have unlocked the XTU in the BIOS, with respect to Throttlestop, when I do not run the software, it is not under the task scheduler start, does the CPU run in default settings ?
If not, it would be possible to reset the settings to default in Throttlestop?
 
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XTU and Throttlestop are different programs, I dont use Throttlestop, I use XTU.

I know with XTU, when i restart my laptop the under-volt stays the same unless the laptop crashes, blue screen, hard restart.... then the settings for the under-volt are put back to default.
I restart XTU and apply the under-volt, my stable under-volt is .075-.080v. .075v seems to be the best, not very high under-volt for the 10th generation, my last laptop had a 8750h that would do .140-.150v undervolt.
 

unclewebb

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does the CPU run in default settings ?
ThrottleStop has no interaction with the BIOS. If you do not run ThrottleStop, your voltages should be at their default values. You can also setup a profile in ThrottleStop that specifically resets your offset voltages to zero. Check the Unlock Adjustable Voltage option and set the Offset value to 0.0 mV.

To confirm your CPU voltages, run a program like CPUID HWMonitor. It will tell you if your CPU is using an undervolt or not. Some laptops that use modern standby might not reset the voltages when you resume. Always a good idea to double check what voltages your CPU is actually running at.
 

gustavoemcoma

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I did some more tests, what bothers me are the high temperatures of 95C and the noise generated by the fans. The laptop noise looked like a 727 turbojet full thrust.
I'm not an engineer and I didn't design the cpu but, in the 97C it was causing a lot of inconvenience, and yes, a laptop for me is a mobility requirement.

I followed what @unclewebb wrote above, set the speed shift values to 50 and put different voltage values for the core and cache. The system stabilized on -0.100 core and -0.0645 of offset voltage of cache.
The FPS degradation would say it was insignificant : -10%, but the temperature drop and consequently noise were very beneficial, -22% .

I'm a layman on the undervolt subject, I would like to thank all the opinions and comments and for that reason I ask again, could I change some additional setting On Throttlestop in order to improve the balance between power and thermal ?

Thank you!
 

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System Name MSI GE75 Raider
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Benchmark Scores Good enough for me
I did some more tests, what bothers me are the high temperatures of 95C and the noise generated by the fans. The laptop noise looked like a 727 turbojet full thrust.
I'm not an engineer and I didn't design the cpu but, in the 97C it was causing a lot of inconvenience, and yes, a laptop for me is a mobility requirement.

I followed what @unclewebb wrote above, set the speed shift values to 50 and put different voltage values for the core and cache. The system stabilized on -0.100 core and -0.0645 of offset voltage of cache.
The FPS degradation would say it was insignificant : -10%, but the temperature drop and consequently noise were very beneficial, -22% .

I'm a layman on the undervolt subject, I would like to thank all the opinions and comments and for that reason I ask again, could I change some additional setting On Throttlestop in order to improve the balance between power and thermal ?

Thank you!
Run your processor with BOINC at 100% with a .075v under-volt and see what temperatures you get.
The screen shot below is what I get with those settings. I have the same laptop with the same specs you do.
I have auto fans, the temp in this room is about 74F.

1598293537346.png
 

unclewebb

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set the speed shift values to 50
My advice was to set the Speed Shift Max value back to 50. I would avoid using that setting to control the maximum CPU speed or temperatures. It is a useful plan B but in your situation, it is not necessary.

My advice was to lower the turbo power limit values. You have both of these set to 107 which is more than your heatsink can handle. Set your turbo ratio limits back to their default values. Allow the turbo power limits to automatically control your maximum CPU speed. This will also control your maximum temperatures.

@yotano211 - Your XTU screenshot shows that you have both of the turbo power limits set to 450W. It also shows that your CPU is Power Limit Throttling at 45W. Does this laptop model have a hard set limit of 45W long term? Your XTU power limit request values are being ignored.
 
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My advice was to set the Speed Shift Max value back to 50. I would avoid using that setting to control the maximum CPU speed or temperatures. It is a useful plan B but in your situation, it is not necessary.

My advice was to lower the turbo power limit values. You have both of these set to 107 which is more than your heatsink can handle. Set your turbo ratio limits back to their default values. Allow the turbo power limits to automatically control your maximum CPU speed. This will also control your maximum temperatures.

@yotano211 - Your XTU screenshot shows that you have both of the turbo power limits set to 450W. It also shows that your CPU is Power Limit Throttling at 45W. Does this laptop model have a hard set limit of 45W long term? Your XTU power limit request values are being ignored.
I think the 45w reading might be a typo or a mistake, 4.12ghz seems kinda low for a 45w power limit. I think it might be 52-55w power limit.
The 450w power limit on the screen might be a joke that I did to increase it to some insane level and I forgot to lower it.
 

unclewebb

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Intel XTU clearly shows that your laptop is power limit throttling right at the TDP value of 45W. Many laptops have this limitation. Long term, you can set the power limits sky high in XTU but these power limits will be ignored. The CPU will power limit throttle based on a hard coded limit set by the manufacturer. This limit is typically set equal to the rated TDP which is 45W.

XTU would not show Power Limit Throttling in yellow unless this was happening. Some MSI laptops will change the power limits depending on what fan profile you are using.
 
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Intel XTU clearly shows that your laptop is power limit throttling right at the TDP value of 45W. Many laptops have this limitation. Long term, you can set the power limits sky high in XTU but these power limits will be ignored. The CPU will power limit throttle based on a hard coded limit set by the manufacturer. This limit is typically set equal to the rated TDP which is 45W.

XTU would not show Power Limit Throttling in yellow unless this was happening. Some MSI laptops will change the power limits depending on what fan profile you are using.
When I got this laptop it said 52w package TDP, then a few weeks ago I updated XTU, with it came lots of changes. At first under-volting was locked then I found I had to enable it in the bios, which I didnt need to do but now I do and now it shows 45w but the same clock speeds and temps.
Changing anything on XTU requires a restart, which before the update I didnt need to restart anything.
 

Nonleague

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I just bought a refurbished MSI GF75 I7 10750H. Factory seal is in tact and out of the box it gave me a score of around 2452 on cinebench and temps were like 97c. I am totally new to Throttlestop and any kind of undervolting so I really don't know too much what I am doing but after playing around for a while (I have read a few threads) I managed to get a Cinebench score of 2957 but the temp is 96c. I used TBL 60, TBS 75, with CPU Core -197.3 and CPU Cache -83. With those settings 4 cores were showing as throttling on Hmonitor although I have not had any warnings in the Limits on Throttlestop.

My highest score with a lower temp of 91c was 2894 using TBL 50, TBS 65, CPU Core -197.3, CPU Cache -84. All my benchmarks have been done with Extreme Performance selected in MSI Dragon Center (max fan)

I should probably start a new thread with some screenshots but just wondering, what can I do to reduce the temps? I have purchased some Gelit Extreme Performance GC-3 Thermal Compound but am not sure if I need to do a re-paste or if those temps are normal when bench-marking in Cinebench?
 
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unclewebb

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Temps in games: 85-97c
@Nonleague - The first post shows that these laptops run hot. The 10750H has a 45W TDP rating so the heatsink and fan were probably designed around that spec. When you push your CPU to 60W or 75W, the heatsink is going to struggle to keep the CPU under the thermal throttling temperature. Replacing the thermal paste might help a few degrees but for this laptop, your temps seem normal.

4 cores were showing as throttling on Hmonitor
What monitoring program are you using? Some programs show temperatures in red but this does not indicate throttling. Watch the Limit Reasons window in ThrottleStop and watch the main screen of ThrottleStop where it shows the PROCHOT temperature. If you see PROCHOT turn red, your CPU was definitely thermal throttling. If this does not turn red, your CPU was definitely not thermal throttling. This data comes directly from the CPU. ThrottleStop does not even have to be running. As soon as you start ThrottleStop, if your CPU was thermal throttling even for a millisecond, ThrottleStop will show this data in red. Clicking on PROCHOT 100°C will clear this info from the CPU and this data will be gray instead of red.

1600617312419.png
 

Nonleague

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@Nonleague - The first post shows that these laptops run hot. The 10750H has a 45W TDP rating so the heatsink and fan were probably designed around that spec. When you push your CPU to 60W or 75W, the heatsink is going to struggle to keep the CPU under the thermal throttling temperature. Replacing the thermal paste might help a few degrees but for this laptop, your temps seem normal.


What monitoring program are you using? Some programs show temperatures in red but this does not indicate throttling. Watch the Limit Reasons window in ThrottleStop and watch the main screen of ThrottleStop where it shows the PROCHOT temperature. If you see PROCHOT turn red, your CPU was definitely thermal throttling. If this does not turn red, your CPU was definitely not thermal throttling. This data comes directly from the CPU. ThrottleStop does not even have to be running. As soon as you start ThrottleStop, if your CPU was thermal throttling even for a millisecond, ThrottleStop will show this data in red. Clicking on PROCHOT 100°C will clear this info from the CPU and this data will be gray instead of red.

View attachment 169311
I am using Hwinfo64 and CPUID HWMonitor. So when I got the Cinebench score of 2957 HWinfo64 showed that cores 2,3,4 and 5 in the Thermal Throttle section had the word 'Yes' in red. Their temps were 95c, 92c, 94c and 94c. The max temp in CPUID Hmonitor was 97c, whilst in Throttlestop it displayed as 96c. This was using TBL 60 and TBS 75, Turbo Time Limit at default of 28 with PPO set to 100 with windows controlling the speedshift at 84. My CPU Core was -197.3 and CPU Cache -83. Limit Reasons was blank. I am using Windows 10 Balance Profile. I also have Disable and Lock Turbo Limits ticked, although there was no 'install' option.

This might sound a bit stupid but with my current results where do I go from here? My aim was to get lower temps whilst not losing much performance but it seems that my temps are almost the same, whilst performance has increased.

Edit: I should add that PROCHOT on my 9.2 version is showing as 95c. It does flash up red sometimes and goes back Grey and also one thing I didn't mention was that the word POWER and HOT, both in red flashes up within the Throttlestop client (not the Limit Reasons). Also the defaults for TBL, TBS were 200 for both.
 
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unclewebb

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Limit Reasons was blank.
HWiNFO clears the throttling information out of the CPU as it runs. This interferes with the information that Limit Reasons will be able to show you. There is a warning message about this issue when you run ThrottleStop for the first time.

1600619316010.png


Use whatever monitoring program you trust the most. There is no need to run 3 different monitoring programs at the same time. A slight difference in the maximum reported temperature is normal when 3 different programs are sampling the same sensor at slightly different times.

there was no 'install' option.
You no longer have to install a separate driver to use the Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits feature. ThrottleStop 9.0 and newer versions use a new driver that is built into ThrottleStop.

There is not much more you can do with ThrottleStop. It cannot change a 45W heatsink into an 80W heatsink. Your CPU is being limited. The power required to continuously run your CPU at its full rated speed will generate more heat than your heatsink can dissipate. If you increase the turbo power limits, you will end up with thermal throttling. Your laptop will forever be right on the edge when running programs like Cinebench. For most other apps, your laptop should run great. If it occasionally hits the thermal throttling temperature, that is OK. Many manufacturers reduce the throttling temperature below the Intel recommended 100°C value. The main screen of ThrottleStop will show you what temperature PROCHOT is set to. If PROCHOT Offset is not locked, you can adjust this in the Options window.
 

Nonleague

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HWiNFO clears the throttling information out of the CPU as it runs. This interferes with the information that Limit Reasons will be able to show you. There is a warning message about this issue when you run ThrottleStop for the first time.

View attachment 169313

Use whatever monitoring program you trust the most. There is no need to run 3 different monitoring programs at the same time. A slight difference in the maximum reported temperature is normal when 3 different programs are sampling the same sensor at slightly different times.


You no longer have to install a separate driver to use the Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits feature. ThrottleStop 9.0 and newer versions use a new driver that is built into ThrottleStop.

There is not much more you can do with ThrottleStop. It cannot change a 45W heatsink into an 80W heatsink. Your CPU is being limited. The power required to continuously run your CPU at its full rated speed will generate more heat than your heatsink can dissipate. If you increase the turbo power limits, you will end up with thermal throttling. Your laptop will forever be right on the edge when running programs like Cinebench. For most other apps, your laptop should run great. If it occasionally hits the thermal throttling temperature, that is OK. Many manufacturers reduce the throttling temperature below the Intel recommended 100°C value. The main screen of ThrottleStop will show you what temperature PROCHOT is set to. If PROCHOT Offset is not locked, you can adjust this in the Options window.
When I loaded up Rainbow 6 Siege that was giving readings of 97c. Where do I go from here? Should I change the TBL, TBLS to something lower? Would a repaste be beneficial? Should I send the laptop back? Really am confused as to what to do to have the laptop working in the best condition it can be. I had lower Cinebench scores ~2880-2900 with reduced heat (91c), should I lose some performance for the reduced heat? Am I harming the laptop by setting the TBL,TBS higher than 45w?

I have just done another benchmark with the settings I mentioned previously. I closed the other Monitoring apps so that nothing could conflict with Throttlestop. As you can see, nothing is showing in the Limit Reasons and the PROCHOT was red at 95c and also POWER flashed up in the Throttlestop client.
2969 1.png
 

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unclewebb

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Am I harming the laptop
Lots of people run their mobile CPUs well beyond 45W. Intel CPUs are tough.

nothing is showing in the Limit Reasons
10th Gen Comet Lake support was added to Limit Reasons in ThrottleStop 9.2.3. Check your messages if you want to give that version a try.

The Set Multiplier feature does not work if Speed Shift is enabled (SST in green). Do not check this option. If you want to control or lower your maximum CPU speed lower the FIVR - Turbo Ratio Limits or lower the Speed Shift Max value in the TPL window.

If you do not like seeing sky high temps then you need to replace the thermal paste, slow your CPU down or reduce the turbo power limits. If your heatsink cannot manage your CPU running at 75 Watts for 28 seconds then you need to lower the power limit or reduce the turbo time limit so it does not spend as much time at the short power limit.

Your temps are sky high but this is normal for laptops with a 10750H. Laptops built using the TongFang chassis tend to have better heatsinks and better cooling.
 
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Nonleague

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The two boxes in red were both showing as red whilst doing the benchmark. What would you suggest I do based on the two pics below?
3032 2.png
 

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unclewebb

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PL1 in red under the CORE column shows that the long term turbo power limit is the reason your CPU is throttling and not running at full speed. Intel CPUs need a lot of power to run at their full rated speed. This creates a lot of heat. Lots and lots of laptops with Intel CPUs are struggling to dissipate all of this heat. Lowering the power limits allows a manufacturer to install one of these powerful CPUs into a laptop without too many problems. A little bit of thermal throttling or power limit throttling is completely normal for modern laptops.

If your long term turbo power limit is still set to 60W then that means 60W is not enough power to run Cinebench R20 at full speed. If you increase this power limit, instead of power limit throttling you are going to end up with thermal throttling. It is like tossing a two headed coin, hoping to see tails.

Some manufacturers simply cap the long term power limit at 45W and enforce this so their laptops do not overheat but they also do not achieve maximum performance.

Your laptop appears to be performing great. It might not be a 10 out of 10 but it is at least a 9. Try replacing the thermal paste if you are looking to get a little more out of your laptop. If this is going to void the warranty then I would not bother. 3032 points in Cinebench is way better than the 2452 that you started at.

In the Options window is the PROCHOT Offset feature locked or unlocked? If you allow the CPU to run at the full 100°C max that Intel sets, this might get you a little more full load performance before thermal throttling starts.

If you see EDP OTHER lighting up in red across all three domains simultaneously, that is usually caused by the PP0 Current Limit. Increase that value and this type of throttling should go away.
 
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Nonleague

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PL1 in red under the CORE column shows that the long term turbo power limit is the reason your CPU is throttling and not running at full speed. Intel CPUs need a lot of power to run at their full rated speed. This creates a lot of heat. Lots and lots of laptops with Intel CPUs are struggling to dissipate all of this heat. Lowering the power limits allows a manufacturer to install one of these powerful CPUs into a laptop without too many problems. A little bit of thermal throttling or power limit throttling is completely normal for modern laptops.

If your long term turbo power limit is still set to 60W then that means 60W is not enough power to run Cinebench R20 at full speed. If you increase this power limit, instead of power limit throttling you are going to end up with thermal throttling. It is like tossing a two headed coin, hoping to see tails.

Some manufacturers simply cap the long term power limit at 45W and enforce this so their laptops do not overheat but they also do not achieve maximum performance.

Your laptop appears to be performing great. It might not be a 10 out of 10 but it is at least a 9. Try replacing the thermal paste if you are looking to get a little more out of your laptop. If this is going to void the warranty then I would not bother. 3032 points in Cinebench is way better than the 2452 that you started at.

In the Options window is the PROCHOT Offset feature locked or unlocked? If you allow the CPU to run at the full 100°C max that Intel sets, this might get you a little more full load performance before thermal throttling starts.
Yes I think it would void the warranty as the factory seal sticker has not been broken and I would assume that they would know that I have done a repaste if anything should happen in the future, although saying that I am planning on breaking the sticker as I need to upgrade the hard drive and add more memory. Would they know that a repaste has been done if I use the excuses that the sticker was broken when I bought it as it was a refurbished model?

The PROCHOT is unticked but is not locked as it allows me to tick it. Should I change it? Also, what does EM OTHER refer to?
I guess I can still undervolt it even further on the core and cache, would this bring down the overall temp? This benchmarking in Cinebench, is it all about trying to get as high a score as possible even if I am getting Power limit throttling or should I look at reducing the score if I can get a reduction on the cpu temp?

I also want to say thank you for your advice and time given towards helping me.
 

unclewebb

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PROCHOT is unticked
Do you mean PROCHOT Offset is unticked? Look for the lock icon near this setting. If there is no lock icon then this setting is not locked.
Setting PROCHOT Offset to 0 allows the CPU to hit 100°C before thermal throttling starts. Laptops are not supposed to do a thermal shutdown until approximately 125°C. Some manufacturers ignore Intel's advice and set the thermal shutdown temperature right at 100°C. If you set PROCHOT Offset to 0 and your laptop shuts down at 100°C, that is what is happening. Should you change this is up to you. No matter what you set this to, your CPU will be running within the Intel spec.

what does EM OTHER refer to
Do you mean EDP OTHER? EDP stands for Electrical Design Point. The OTHER part is not well documented. When PL1 goes red under CORE, EDP OTHER will automatically go red under RING. In this situation, ignore EDP OTHER. It is the long term core turbo power limit that is causing the throttling.

If you see EDP OTHER lighting up in red across all three domains simultaneously, that is usually caused by the PP0 Current Limit. Increase that value and this type of throttling should go away.
High score in Cinebench wins. Power limit or thermal throttling is normal during this stress test. You can use ThrottleStop to avoid all types of throttling but this will decrease performance. The choice is yours. Maximum performance with some throttling or less throttling and less performance.

You will have to negotiate with whoever you bought your laptop from whether breaking the seal voids the warranty or not. Some techs might frown. Some realize that replacing a hard drive or memory or the thermal paste is normal maintenance that most competent owners can perform by themselves.
 

Nonleague

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7 (0.19/day)
Do you mean PROCHOT Offset is unticked? Look for the lock icon near this setting. If there is no lock icon then this setting is not locked.
Setting PROCHOT Offset to 0 allows the CPU to hit 100°C before thermal throttling starts. Laptops are not supposed to do a thermal shutdown until approximately 125°C. Some manufacturers ignore Intel's advice and set the thermal shutdown temperature right at 100°C. If you set PROCHOT Offset to 0 and your laptop shuts down at 100°C, that is what is happening. Should you change this is up to you. No matter what you set this to, your CPU will be running within the Intel spec.


Do you mean EDP OTHER? EDP stands for Electrical Design Point. The OTHER part is not well documented. When PL1 goes red under CORE, EDP OTHER will automatically go red under RING. In this situation, ignore EDP OTHER. It is the long term core turbo power limit that is causing the throttling.



High score in Cinebench wins. Power limit or thermal throttling is normal during this stress test. You can use ThrottleStop to avoid all types of throttling but this will decrease performance. The choice is yours. Maximum performance with some throttling or less throttling and less performance.

You will have to negotiate with whoever you bought your laptop from whether breaking the seal voids the warranty or not. Some techs might frown. Some realize that replacing a hard drive or memory or the thermal paste is normal maintenance that most competent owners can perform by themselves.
Sorry, there is no lock, just an option to either tick or untick.

So even if I'm gaming and let's say for example i'm getting 97c whilst playing Rainbow Siege 6, there's no need for me to be worried about it?

as for contacting the place I got the laptop from, I'll do that tomorrow.
 
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