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i7-1165G7 in a Lenovo P15s down to 0.39GHz, massive PL1-Flags

Johnny_G

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Guys,

I'm somewhat new to this CPU "tinkering"/troubleshooting and ThrottleStop.
Just bought a Lenovo P15s for the relative efficient CPU and GPU (Nvidia T500), and expected it to be major upgrade from my pervious system. In theory, yes. But in practical terms, it runs terrible.

Out of the blue it will throttle
as low as 0,39GHz. this can happen while surfing, and it also happens during CPU/GPU intensive work, like Video editing. Interesting is, that sometimes it will work fine for hours, and at other times it will just not.

A bit research brought me to ThrottleStop. Currently I "only" see PL1-errors (in the attached log). If I read ThrottleStop right, power is currently limited to 6.7W for the CPU (or even CPU/GPU combo)?
The log (attached) from a few minutes ago still shows a "whopping" 8W.

I've seen thermal and PL2 warnings before, but with the current power consumption limited, I currently can't get any heat ;-)

Talked to Lenovo, they suggested BIOS-Update or a defective device. Bios update done. Nothing changed. I still can return this unit, and I might have to. But as a side note, for using outside, I love the 600nits on this screen.
I asked Lenovo, if this is a general problem, but was told that issues with such power limiting are unknown, and the device might just be defective. After some research which led me here, I wonder if this was the truth. Can send it back, order a new one, but if this throtteling issue is "by (bad) design", then I have to shop elsewhere...

Any ideas what is going on here?
What to do from here?


And an off-topic-question:
Even though the unit realizes it's on AC power, could this be a power supply issue? This unit only has USB-PD. Is there a way to find out what voltage is provided by the power supply? Could such a throttle happen, if the power supply only sends 10W, and the drivers want to prevent the battery from discharging, even if the battery is full?
 

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  • LenovoP15s_TigerLake Throtteling_ThrottleStopLog.txt
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unclewebb

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Your log file shows that your computer runs great, as long as you do not try to run any programs on it. Just turn it on and admire its beautiful screen from afar. :)

Talked to Lenovo
If 100 people a day contact Lenovo about a throttling problem, do you think the people answering the phones are going to admit to that?

It is possible that your laptop has been engineered to reduce the turbo power limits to protect an inadequate power supply. When did you first notice this problem? Did it just happen or has it always performed poorly since it was new? If this just started to happen then it is possible that a sensor somewhere on the motherboard has failed.

Intel has removed CPU voltage control from the 11th Gen G7 series so your options to fix this issue are limited. Open the ThrottleStop FIVR window and on the right side, try checking the Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option. Press OK and run another test after that and see if it makes any difference. This throttling method used to be widely used. Some of the new throttling methods are not so easy to solve.

Post some screenshots that show how you have ThrottleStop setup. Include the main ThrottleStop window and the TPL and FIVR windows.

Edit - I just looked up the price of a P15s Gen 2 in some of my Canadian dollars. I would go completely ballistic if my laptop was being power limit throttled down to only 400 MHz. Let Lenovo know what you really think about this computer.

1624122236006.png
 
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Johnny_G

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Thank you.

Pretty steep price tag in CAD. In other parts of the world it's more around 2000USB/€. Still, I consider this a professional and somewhat premium series, and I expect much more than that. It however seems that many manufacturers sell sub-optimal units - had to do some digging with this issue and found unhappy people from all kinds of brands for various reasons. Quality overall seems to get worse, but that's another topic, I assume.

This P15s is new. It pretty much started from the beginning. I was starting with this one, and a HP Zbook Firefly 15 G8, same specs (GPU/GPU/RAM), and noticed from the beginning that the Lenovo throttled more, but not as excessive - At least I did not realize it. HP was ~ 10% faster rendering Video compared to the Lenovo. I found that sub-optimal, thought probably because of worse cooling desing, but were willing to accept that. The HP had other drawbacks, so decided against it, before I knew that the Lenovo was that bad. In the meantime I found another massive drawback of the Lenovo: The heat exhaust is on the right side, and if one uses a mouse/trackball next to the unit, it gets HOT.

Back to the main issue: Currently, the unit almost always is stuck at 0.39GHz, unless I only watch the desktop - just as you said. And sometimes even there, it will be stuck at 0,39 for forever.

Did check "Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits" as suggested, rebooted, and then made screenshot and another Log. Attached here.

Spoiler: CPU still went down to 0.39, as soon as CPU performance is needed.
 

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  • LogAfterDisableLockPowerLimits.txt
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that isn't normal, can you try to return it?
maybe exchange for another unit.
i know lenovo usually caps greatly watts for the sake of somewhat crappy cooling, but that its a nonsense.
 

unclewebb

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Try checking the Lock box in the TPL window.

1624126075521.png


Sadly, I do not think that this is going to solve your problem.

Some laptops used to use the Intel Dynamic Platform and Thermal Framework driver to control the CPU power limits. Look in the device manager for this driver or something with a similar name. Some users have had success by removing this driver from Windows and then blocking Windows from reinstalling it. You will have to do some Google searching to learn more about this problem.

There is a third power limit controlled by an embedded controller (EC) that ThrottleStop does not have access to. If this controller decides to limit your laptop to 5W then your laptop will slow down to a crawl so it does not exceed 5W. Are you using any Lenovo control software that has some sort of cool or quiet feature? This needs to be set to maximum performance.

I am not familiar with Lenovo's latest schemes. Older Dell and Lenovo laptops could easily be fixed. The newer ones cannot.

Regardless of price, a laptop that randomly throttles down to 400 MHz is useless in 2021. The constant PL1 messages in the log file confirm that this is a power limit throttling problem. This may be normal for Lenovo's recent laptops but it is definitely not normal.
 
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hmm could be like the problem i have with my T15 Gen2 1165G7, i have a case with Lenovo because the laptop with light load (15%) is getting 100C instant, a technician has changed the cooler 4 days ago but that did not help so he said the next step was to change the motherboard so i am waiting for that.

Mine is performing ok and get worse as the whole laptop is getting heated, the first day i used it (14 days ago) it was so hot after copying data from a usb disk (130mb/s) to it while working on it nothing heavy 10-20% load that i burned my hand when i wanted to put it in my bag and the ssd was only writing with 10ms/s at the end with 99% activity time.

Speed wise it starts at 4.7Ish Ghz with normal windows and when it i starts to put some "load" (15%) on it it hits 100C and is bouncing around in the 3300 to 4000Mhz range, if i do 100% load it slowly drops down to 2.8 Ghz (wich is ok i guess (I am only loading the CPU btw)) but the whole Laptop is gets Crazy hot, while i was working on it one day (20-50% load) i opened HWinfo and saw that the Battery 2 was hitting 99C so i have not done any more full load testing on it and will i wait for lenovo it is running en lowest performance mode until Lenovo gets back to me because 99C battery is not good. (the cpu is still hit 100C but is running around 70C with the 20-40% load.)

How i see it: Either the Design of the laptop is not good or the Intel 1165 is running Crazy hot, but again i dont think a battery should get 99C if the CPU gets hot soooooooo...

I will let you know what Lenovo tells me but sounds like there could be a bigger issue with these models.
 

Johnny_G

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hmm could be like the problem i have with my T15 Gen2 1165G7, i have a case with Lenovo because the laptop with light load (15%) is getting 100C instant,
This gives me a bad feeling - for both of us. I've seen Temperature flag 100°C before, too. Pretty quick... Did not address it here yet, because I could not log it, since the throttle is so bad.
that isn't normal, can you try to return it?
Yes, I can. But I would like to evaluate as best as possible, if my unit is faulty, or if this is a general problem with this CPU, or at least Lenovo...
Some laptops used to use the Intel Dynamic Platform and Thermal Framework driver to control the CPU power limits. Look in the device manager for this driver or something with a similar name. Some users have had success by removing this driver from Windows and then blocking Windows from reinstalling it. You will have to do some Google searching to learn more about this problem.
I did find that already, and did remove these drivers, plus the prevention of re-installing. Before my first post here. Did not address it yet, to keep it "simple". Obviously it did NOT help in my case.

Try checking the Lock box in the TPL window.

1624126075521.png
Done that. As expected, no change. Screenshot and Log of the "cold" machine attached, had been turned off for a couple hours, just booted and applied these settings to create the attached log...
 

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  • Log with Turbo Power Limits Lock checked.txt
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unclewebb

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if this is a general problem with this CPU
My opinion is that there is nothing wrong with the 1165G7. These are powerful CPUs when a manufacturer is not deliberately throttling them to death. You will have to ask Lenovo why your laptop is constantly power limit throttling down to 400 MHz. They can argue that ThrottleStop is a third party program but they do not have a leg to stand on. The log file shows exactly what is happening. Properly functioning laptops do not get stuck at 400 MHz. My 6 year old Lenovo laptop can run more than 8 times faster with the same load.

My gut feeling is that there is nothing unusual about your individual laptop. I think they probably all do more or less the same thing. When a CPU is running at 36°C or 37°C and it is under 5W, there is no legit reason in the world for it to be power limit throttling at 400 MHz. A failed sensor could be feeding some bad info to the EC but I think the problem is deeper than just a bad sensor issue.

Check the TDP Level Control box and try setting it to 2. If the 1165G7 does not support level 2, when you enter this into ThrottleStop and press Apply, it will automatically change to 1. In that case, try TDP Level 0. Once again, I highly doubt that this will make any difference. The EC has been programmed for some severe throttling and I do not think there is an easy way around that limitation until Lenovo releases a BIOS update that eliminates this throttling feature.

Definitely come back and share any solution that you come up with.
 
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Yes, I can. But I would like to evaluate as best as possible, if my unit is faulty, or if this is a general problem with this CPU, or at least Lenovo...
If was me i return it, 2000€ for an 400MHZ cpu, in my book its a big fault, i own an yoga c920 and i've got some throttling but i can see my cpu @+3GHZ for long periods.
i think that you're unit its damaged, in Portugal you can exchange for a new unit in the first 30 days, can you do the same?
change and see
 

Johnny_G

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Check the TDP Level Control box and try setting it to 2.
Done. The machine did not behave any better, as the attached files will show.

I will exchange it for a new one, and see if it performs adequate...
 

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  • 04_TDP LevelControl2.txt
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  • 04_TDP LevelControl2.png
    04_TDP LevelControl2.png
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i think In my case the CPU is fine, Hot but fine, the cooling is just not the best.

Under a Teams meeting this morning (teams and some Websites open) my T15 spontanes powered off. powered it back on and it worked fine,
Lenovo tech came 60 min later and changed the motherboard but the thermal is the same.

if i Flip the LT around so the backside is op (using a USB C "Dock") it can stay around 90ish degrees with one core fully loaded and the FAN @ MAX
and the Clock speed is fine 4 ish GHZ but with a longer 4 core load it is down to around 2ghz (30 min testing)

1624285485543.png


I hope you can return yours or get a new one that is working :)
 

Johnny_G

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if i Flip the LT around so the backside is op
Can you please elaborate "LT", "op"?
Somehow sound like a special positioning of the unit on a stand - if so this still would mean that the unit, in a mobile scenario (just standing on a table), would have no chance to perform adequate...?
but with a longer 4 core load it is down to around 2ghz (30 min testing)
All this is without utilizing the T500 (professional) GPU, which most likely will utilize same heatpipe/fan/exhaust?
 

Johnny_G

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OK, guys. Am having a new unit in hands.
Runs much better so far, but already got (temporarily) stuck at 0,4GHz a few times. Could most of the time get it out with clicking on the battery symbol and changing energy plans a few times...
But I can not reproduce it easily here with this machine - the machine runs better, but since it already got stuck a few times, I can not say it runs reliable.

Side note: I somehow currently seem to have a hard time to enable the log with ThrottleLock. "Log file" is checked, but it's currently not making a new log file for some reason. surely I am missing something?

I however have seen trough HWInfo, that the PL1 seems to be a "flexible" value on this machine. See here:
LenovoPL1Pl2.png

Why, when and trough what PL1 is changed - does anyone know?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I somehow have in my head that the issue could also have something to do with the PowerSupply.
The one coming with the unit is only rated 65W. Under load (including the GPU), cheap watt-meter shows consumption of up to 85W going into this power supply. Hard to tell, if my watt-meter is accurate, but at least it shows that the power supply is running at peak. Maybe under load it's not keeping up, causing issues? Did open another thread to find a software based possibility to read out, what the PD port is receiving, and what had been negotiated between machine and power supply. So far I could not find anything which will provide me data. Any suggestions, please let me know here or in the other thread.
 
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unclewebb

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Some laptops are using power supplies that are inadequate. They cannot fully power the laptop, especially if you are trying to charge the battery. When plugged in at full load, some will start draining the battery.

Most cheap watt meters are not 100% accurate measuring devices but even so, a 65W adapter might not be enough. If the battery is not being drained, some laptops are designed to throttle so power consumption does not get too high.

stuck at 0,4GHz
This should never happen. Never. I would send it back before it gets worse.
 

Johnny_G

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Here we go again. No log, just screenshot. I hope, I will get a log again, too.
Only temporary, but there it was, stock at 0,4GHz.
PL1_5.0W - again.png

And just as I wrote it, it happened again.
Cycling trough the power settings on the battery symbol and changing energy plans a few times got it out again. Interesting to see is that PL1 was lowest on "maximum performance", now it's back to 35.0W.
It must have something to do with these "intelligent" energy plans, and therefor could be sensor, or Intel Software, or Lenovo software. But who knows what exactly is messing here where.
On these "newer" machines, there are no more power plans available (only "balanced"). This again must have something to do with this new power slider, if one clicks on the battery... And nowhere to find what the settings are, where they can be seen (and maybe changed). I am off for tonight, may mess with it a bit more tomorrow.
Only balanced power plan.png
 

unclewebb

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1624577187515.png


Your screenshot shows that the power limit is being reduced to 5W. This is what triggers severe power limit throttling.
The CPU is forced to slow down as much as possible so it does not exceed this unrealistic 5W power limit. Get someone from Lenovo to explain the logic behind this. You did not pay for a 5W computer so why is your CPU being limited to 5W.

If you have removed the DPTF drivers, locked the power limits in the TPL window and checked the FIVR Disable and Lock option then I am almost out of ideas.

I would install a Windows 10 ISO direct from Microsoft and I would not install any software from Lenovo.
 
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Can you please elaborate "LT", "op"?
Somehow sound like a special positioning of the unit on a stand - if so this still would mean that the unit, in a mobile scenario (just standing on a table), would have no chance to perform adequate...?

All this is without utilizing the T500 (professional) GPU, which most likely will utilize same heatpipe/fan/exhaust?
LT = Laptop and op it UP in Danish :)

But yes the laptop is closed and is flipped around so the button is up (not usable if it is not connected to a dock) i am using a USB-C dock with a cable

Last Update in my case is Lenovo wanted to send it to their workshop so now my les than 1 month old laptop is send for repair/check.

BTW when i ran a full load for more than 15 min it could only be loaded 80%.. in windows
 

Johnny_G

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BTW when i ran a full load for more than 15 min it could only be loaded 80%.. in windows
That seems about what I see.
When the unit does not do this massive throttle, the CPU usually only runs a bit above 2.1GHz long term, which is only approx. 80% of the rated 2.8GHz.
This alone is terrible enough if one buys a unit with such capable CPU.
It's like buying a car with advertised 500HP, which for whatever terrible engineering reason (in the fuel line) can only deliver gasoline to sustain 400HP. On top of that, the firmare on the ECU would throttle the 500HP engine down to 50HP, if one did try to get the 500HP and the fuel was not deliverd due to the thin fuel line... What a joke one would be on the road... But exactly seems to be what we have here!


Back to the unit:
In the meantime I found an article somewhere, that in many scenarios the cheaper i5-1135G7 is FASTER than the 1165G7, because it will almost all the time run unthrottled. What a mess. Downside with the i5 is, that it also comes with less iGPU power, and usually not same external GPU chips as the i7-1165G7.
The analogy again would be that the "cheap" V6 Mustang will be fater that the V8, beause the V8 can only run full throttler for a very short time, and while limited in power, the V6 will pass by.

I have to say, exploring all this was interesting, but at the same time it pisses me off.
Originally ordered this unit to be more productive. Instead, productivity was very limited, because I had to search the Internet and learn additional stuff to find out why something does not work as it should...
These manufacturers are great in writing invoices, once something is out of warranty, but they are bad at reimbursing users for selling inadequate units and wasting their (life-)time.


Back to the throttling topic:
Today, with the current unit, I did some more exploring and I found out that most of the time, the massive throtteling appears, is if some voltage/current (ring) limits are reached.
My current conclusion is, that you will hardly experience such issues, if you don't utilize the external GPU. But then: Why buy a unit with a dedicated GPU and pay for it, if it can't be utilized?
And then the drivers: Who writes drivers like these? If such limits are reached, the driver should learn to minimally throttle to get back within the specs, rather than locking down the CPU to 10% of the rated peak power. And aside from the drivers: The manufacturers should just provide the necessary ring power to enable CPU/GPU to run on full power, until thermal issues arise.
Today with testing around, I did hardly see any thermal issues, because before they could arise, the Voltage/current limits had triggered CPU "lockdown".

What a shame it is to see what Intel, and in this case Lenovo, allow to get on the market.
Even worse: I don't know what else to buy and get the feeling that I have to stay (be stuck) with my current old i7-4500U, which seems to run at full power all the time and on average much more reliable than the i7-1165G7...
 
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I am starting to think that lenovo did not do a good enough job designing the cooling on this Laptop,

Just back from Vacation, in them meantime my LT was back from repairs, they have changed

Part Symptom
FLi7-1165G7 16G OVERHEATING
HT5B1_UMA_THM_ASSY_AVC_AVC OVERHEATING
T15G2_D_COVER_BK_SUB_ASSY_W_ OVERHEATING
BIOS update

And..................................... it still does the same. loading windows installing HWINFO and opening it.... 100C.......

Contacted Lenovo and they want to send it in again....................................................................................................

so 3 x cooling solutions, 2 motherboards and what i guess is a back cover later and they still think thay can fix it........ ? well lets see. my good old (slow) T570 will have to work a little longer.... full load on that is "only" 75c in this heat (30c ish degrees) running 3GHz.
 

Johnny_G

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I am starting to think that lenovo did not do a good enough job designing the cooling on this Laptop,

Just back from Vacation, in them meantime my LT was back from repairs, they have changed

Part Symptom
FLi7-1165G7 16G OVERHEATING
HT5B1_UMA_THM_ASSY_AVC_AVC OVERHEATING
T15G2_D_COVER_BK_SUB_ASSY_W_ OVERHEATING
BIOS update

And..................................... it still does the same. loading windows installing HWINFO and opening it.... 100C.......

Contacted Lenovo and they want to send it in again....................................................................................................

so 3 x cooling solutions, 2 motherboards and what i guess is a back cover later and they still think thay can fix it........ ? well lets see. my good old (slow) T570 will have to work a little longer.... full load on that is "only" 75c in this heat (30c ish degrees) running 3GHz.
I gave up on it (Lenovo), had two units as can bee seen in this thread, both not working as expected. Terrible, but true. Both units went back for a refund. Would have loved to get this CPU+GPU combo...
 
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I can totally understand that, "my" laptop is a company one, so i dont think a return will be that easy :( but lets see, i have had a battle like this before with lenovo back in the good old T61p days where the GFX on my T61p was dying every month :D

BUT yes Lenovo is not what it has been sadly.
 

KianoJajino

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Hi I just discover this thread while looking for the same issue with my P15s Gen2
I use it mainly for web development. It's my first Thinkpad and I'm generally happy with it.

Mine is also throttled to 0.4GHz but without overheating or anything else (max 60°C). It's on a stand that raises it a bit and is constantly plugged in with the load limit.

I wanted to test on Linux these problems but the Ethernet driver does not work properly preventing me from working...

I noticed that as soon as the Nivida GPU is used the PowerLimit 1 change to 35W (instead of 64W) while having the battery mode on "Performance".
 

unclewebb

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Mine is also throttled to 0.4GHz
When your computer is throttled to 0.4 GHz, can you post a screenshot of ThrottleStop with the Limit Reasons window open? There is always a reason for throttling. Maybe not a legit reason but there will still be some reason why throttling is happening.

Some laptops are setting the turbo power limits way too low and some Lenovo laptops are setting the thermal throttling temperature way too low. Either one of these problems can cause severe throttling.

Also post a screenshot of your TPL window so I can see how you have ThrottleStop setup. Check the MMIO Lock option in the TPL window and also check the Speed Shift option.
 

KianoJajino

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I was using TrueView (it use the Nvidia GPU) and then PL1 change to 5W

I don't use ThrottleStop

1634895018843.png

1634895231734.png


1634895090769.png
 

unclewebb

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@KianoJajino - The type of power limit throttling that you are seeing is usually set by an embedded controller. It has lowered the PL1 turbo power limit to 5W or less. There is no known way to solve this type of throttling but here are a few things you can try.

In the ThrottleStop TPL window, check the MMIO Lock box, clear the Disable Power Limit Control box, check the Speed Shift box and set "Power Limit 4 to 0" instead of 121.

1634918055144.png


On the main screen, clear the BD PROCHOT box.

If you are still limited to 5W then all you can do is complain to Lenovo. You paid for a CPU that Intel says is supposed to run between 12W and 28W.


Limiting this CPU to only 5W is forcing it to run outside of its Intel rated spec. That is not what you agreed to pay for. Tell Lenovo to fix the problem or replace your laptop.

The throttling methods that Lenovo engineering have dreamed up are a disgrace. They have been secretly throttling their laptops for years. My 8 year old Y510P disables Intel turbo boost soon after the Nvidia GPU becomes active. That problem was easy to solve. It is no longer possible to easily bypass Lenovo's most recent power limit throttling schemes.

Edit - I just read this thread again. The new MMIO Lock option might be able to solve this low power throttling problem. This option was added to ThrottleStop after this forum thread was started.
 
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