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Intel 13th Gen Support?

unclewebb

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1684265504112.png


Your undervolt is not working at all. It is being ignored by the CPU because the BIOS you are using has enabled a new Intel feature called Undervolt Protection. If you cannot find an option to disable Undervolt Protection in the BIOS then consider installing a previous BIOS version if you can find one.

Edit - Just had a closer look. When Undervolt Protection is enabled, you might be able to undervolt in the BIOS but you cannot use ThrottleStop to undervolt. The only way to tell if this is working properly is to run a consistent benchmark like Cinebench and watch your CPU temperature. Do a test with zero undervolt for a baseline, reboot, set an undervolt and do another test to see if there is an improvement in temperatures or performance.

It is best to undervolt in the BIOS as long as it works correctly.

There is no need to check the Speed Shift box in the TPL window or the Speed Shift EPP box on the main screen. Windows 11 can manage the EPP setting so I would recommend leaving these ThrottleStop boxes clear.

You should be able to lower the MSR power limits. Not sure what will work best for you. Find a value that gives you the right balance between maximum performance and reasonable temperatures.

IccMax looks correct now.
 
Last edited:

Nephirum

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I did notice perfomance improvement with the BIOS undervolt, and honesly, I don't really mind I guess.
I did get the CPU P Cache from 50mV to 100mW offset on throttlestop, unsure if it worked or not.

Before TS, I tried XTU and then TS 9.5

In order to get the XTU to even work, and to unlock the adjustable voltage on TS I had to change extra settings on the BIOS, since the lack of undervolt protection didn't let XTU open at all, so I'm not sure that it unlocked after that by mistake or if it actually bypasses the protection.

The exact setting is here

I'm going to further try some more power limits and set different profiles with different goals in mind and see how it goes.

Thanks for all the help!
 

unclewebb

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The reddit post is two years old which is before Undervolt Protection was introduced. Doing the reddit mod unlocks the sliders in ThrottleStop but they will not work correctly if Undervolt Protection is enabled in the BIOS.

My best guess is that you can only change voltages while you are in the BIOS. Using ThrottleStop to make any further changes after you boot up will likely be ignored when the FIVR window shows Undervolt Protection at the top middle. Look in your BIOS settings to see if Undervolt Protection can be disabled.

If you learn anything new about what works and what doesn't, post your test results here.
 

Ner98

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Hello @unclewebb!

May I ask a link for Throttlestop 9.5.1 please? I would like to test it on Asus ROG Strix Scar 18 with i9 13980hx.

All the best and thanks for your work!
 

Nephirum

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The reddit post is two years old which is before Undervolt Protection was introduced. Doing the reddit mod unlocks the sliders in ThrottleStop but they will not work correctly if Undervolt Protection is enabled in the BIOS.

My best guess is that you can only change voltages while you are in the BIOS. Using ThrottleStop to make any further changes after you boot up will likely be ignored when the FIVR window shows Undervolt Protection at the top middle. Look in your BIOS settings to see if Undervolt Protection can be disabled.

If you learn anything new about what works and what doesn't, post your test results here.
I didn't manage to confirm with thorough testing, but when I disabled Undervolt Protection on the BIOS, TS didn't show that anymore so you're probably correct.

Although, I believe that even with Undervolt Protection off, Unlocking Adjustable Voltage used to be greyed out in TS, but I'd have to turn that BIOS setting off again to double check.

Regardless, currently I'm using -100mV on both P cores, P core cache, and E core cache, set on BIOS with good results, high scores on cinebench and no stability issues so far, using TS only to limit the PL1 and PL2 (which are set to the same value)

I wonder if there's another tweaks I could do to optimize performance while lowering the heat as much as possible.

Wish MSI Center's fan control wasn't so bad though. Have to keep the PC in extreme Performance and the thresholds are very limited, with no temperature description on each step, if you guys know any software than can replace it, please let me know.
 

unclewebb

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If you have control of the CPU voltage and control of the power limits then you have full control of your CPU. I do not know of any other magic settings.

Have you tried going further than -100 mV on the P cores and P cache? You might be getting near the stable limit. Less voltage is about the only way to get less heat and better performance.
 
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Can I get 9.5.1 as well? I have 13900KF and cannot go to max ICC.

Update:
I've hit the cooling limits :(
1684446958369.png
 
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albertsos

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Hello @unclewebb!

I'd like to try the Throttlestop 9.5.1 beta to undervolt my 13700hx in my Lenovo Legion 5 Pro. Version 9.5 doesn't allow me to undervolt the E-Core cache it shows Digital IO instead in the UI. I can undervolt the the E-Core cache using XTU however.
 
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Hello @unclewebb!

I'd like to try Throttlestop 9.5.x beta as well! Working on a 13900HX in my Legion Pro 7i. Here searching high and low took a time and finally found this thread. Don't want to use XTU as I've been using Throttlestop for years on my processors. Thanks!
 
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Hey webb, I'd appreciate if you could share a copy of the new TS beta with me, too.

I've one of the second wave Raptor Lake CPUs as well (i9-13900KS), and I've had a bit of a weird C0 utilization/latency problem that seems to occur only under Windows 11 (thread), I'd like to try some of ThrottleStop's power control features to see if they help, or maybe see if its diagnostics data could provide me with some pointers. I'll let you know if there's anything weird or not working as expected.
Thanks in advance :toast:
 

unclewebb

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Where do I get the updated beta?
It is the same download link that I previously sent you.

@Dr. Dro

TS 9.5.1 can report the C0% correctly on 13th Gen CPUs. Not sure if that can help you find your latency problem. I will send you the download link.

My 10th Gen CPU running Windows 10 averages about 0.1% in the C0 state across 20 threads with only Google Chrome and ThrottleStop open and very little else. I am not sure what new bloatware features are included in Windows 11. High C0% at idle on a thread or two could be the sign of a bad driver sampling something millions of times per second that it really does not need to.

1684601250916.png
 
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The problem I have seems to be the extreme opposite, it's very low even when the CPU is under load. Works as intended on 10... Will be running it tonight, seeing what's up. I just haven't been able to figure this one out so far. Thanks again man.
 

unclewebb

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it's very low even when the CPU is under load
Run Cinebench to fully load your CPU. ThrottleStop should show that the C0% is at 100.0% for each core and for each thread.

My screenshot above shows that many cores and threads are completely idle. It does not take a lot of computing power to run Windows 10 when it is properly setup. A 13th Gen CPU capable of processing 24 or 32 threads of data is overkill if all you are doing is sitting idle looking at the desktop in Windows. The average C0% should be very low.

Post a TS screenshot or two that shows the C0% when idle in Windows 11. This is a good measure of CPU activity.
 
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I was correlating "C0%" with HWiNFO64's reported effective clocks (I think it's more or less the same thing, but I may be wrong) - left ThrottleStop running a bit here and it seems like it's reporting normal-ish looking values for a desktop idle, C0% never too high, but the OS is so painfully slow I can't do anything with it... even opening the command prompt takes over a full minute, I just have no idea why Windows 11 persistently refuses to work correctly on my PC. I've rebooted to Windows 10 already (since I'm posting this after all), but I'll definitely try to do that.

Update on this; it's just busted. The OS just seems hopelessly stuck, it performs so slowly that it can't handle task manager and TS at once. I've been waiting 5 minutes for Cinebench R23 to even start.

20230520_171222.jpg


TS reports expected clocks but extra low C0%. Win11 is bugged beyond belief on this PC, and it's 10 that's technically supposed to malfunction with the hybrid arch or whatever. Ugh. Good thing I can keep Win10.
 
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unclewebb

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I was correlating "C0%" with HWiNFO64's reported effective clocks
C0% that ThrottleStop reports and effective clock in HWiNFO are two different things.

TS reports expected clocks but extra low C0%.
Idle C0% looks right. My 10 core 20 thread CPU reports average C0% as 0.1% when idle and your computer reports C0% as 0.2% when idle. There is nothing wrong with that.

Try running a TS Bench 20 Thread test. I think average C0% should be around 62.5% (20 Threads / 32 Thread CPU) in the C0 state for the TS Bench. Add on another 0.2% for your Windows background tasks.

No idea why your 6000 MHz super computer is so sluggish when trying to run Windows 11. I dusted off my 4th Gen laptop today and Command windows open up instantaneously. What antivirus program are you using? Disable it whatever it is. It is almost as if every .exe file you try to run gets sent to China first for inspection. I was forced to get rid of Avast when it started confiscating my ThrottleStop builds every time I changed a line of code and recompiled it.

Did you install Windows 11 to a blank drive or just to a partition? I prefer completely clean installs.

Can you post a FIVR screenshot? That window will show if Undervolt Protection is enabled which seems to be a new broken feature from Intel.

If it is not antivirus related then my next wild guess would be a hard drive or SSD that is failing. Something is terribly wrong. I have avoided installing or using Windows 11. It still seems like it is being beta tested.
 
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C0% that ThrottleStop reports and effective clock in HWiNFO are two different things.

Idle C0% looks right. My 10 core 20 thread CPU reports average C0% as 0.1% when idle and your computer reports C0% as 0.2% when idle. There is nothing wrong with that.

Try running a TS Bench 20 Thread test. I think average C0% should be around 62.5% (20 Threads / 32 Thread CPU) in the C0 state for the TS Bench. Add on another 0.2% for your Windows background tasks.

No idea why your 6000 MHz super computer is so sluggish when trying to run Windows 11. I dusted off my 4th Gen laptop today and Command windows open up instantaneously. What antivirus program are you using? Disable it whatever it is. It is almost as if every .exe file you try to run gets sent to China first for inspection. I was forced to get rid of Avast when it started confiscating my ThrottleStop builds every time I changed a line of code and recompiled it.

Did you install Windows 11 to a blank drive or just to a partition? I prefer completely clean installs.

If it is not antivirus related then my next wild guess would be a hard drive or SSD that is failing. Something is terribly wrong. I have avoided installing or using Windows 11. It still seems like it is being beta tested.

Ooh, I see. Interesting.

Yeah, man. I've no clue either. I just can't for the life of me figure this one out, I've been cracking at it for a whole month at this point. I've tried practically every BIOS release that supports this CPU, disabling memory tweaks, running it bone stock... It's on a completely separate SSD of its own (same brand and model as the one that has Windows 10 on it), and is a brand new installation, no third party antivirus and Defender is off, SSD is actually fine - no SMART errors, bandwidth tests from CrystalDiskMark are fine, and speed while accessing, writing and reading from 10 are completely normal.

It seems everything from ThrottleStop's side is alright, from what I can see. As requested here are screenshots

20230521_021128.jpg

20230521_021713.jpg

20230521_021726.jpg


I'll run TS bench on Windows 10 in a bit, just gotta reboot this clunker

Update: apologies for the camera pics btw, it's not even connected to the internet... I've tried installing the latest update to the OS manually using a standalone MSP, and it was stuck at "you're 30% there" for the last 10 minutes, so I just turned it off. I've had enough, I'm writing it off. I'm just going to format the SSD that has Windows 11 on it and forget it ever existed, maybe try again by the time 23H2 ships to the stable ring. Ugh, disgusting. Curiously, TS Bench completes faster on this cackling mess than it does on Windows 10, which probably indicates there's no problem related to the CPU settings at all.

In both cases the C0% load when running TS bench is around 50%.

1684647645516.png
 
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unclewebb

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Thanks for the screenshots. Everything looks normal. Your benchmark score looks normal. Does ThrottleStop and all of its windows open up in real time without any 60 second delays?

What method did you use to disable Windows Defender?

After all you have already tried, I am out of ideas what might be causing the slow downs.

Perhaps ProcessMon or ProcessExplorer from SysInternals might help you uncover what is hanging up when you go to do something simple. Learning how to use these tools might keep you busy for another month.
 
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I disabled it using Defender Control, which turns off the Windows security service entirely. I do the same on Windows 10.


TS takes some time to start up, but after that it seemingly works fine. There are a few applications that do this (the ones I've managed to get installed, basically), others just drag for hours if you let it. It took over an hour to install DirectX 9 on this thing. I've gotta check Process Monitor, I think it's the one thing I forgot to run all this time. I did look at Windows' own resource monitor but from all I could gather there, the computer's just idling doing nothing at all as if it was permanently stuck in some sort of busy wait loop. Some built-in Windows programs open instantly as well, but others take minutes to load. SFC reports no file corruption and DISM completes correctly (although it takes a veeeery long time to complete), I'm just clueless.

But at this point, should anyone be going these lengths to get what's supposedly the latest and greatest operating system to work on a brand new latest generation computer? Yeah, you did good not upgrading your production machine to 11, I can tell. It works okay on my older computers, but jeez. At this point, it's decidedly a write off. I'm not even sure there's any real benefit running Windows 11 on this thing anyway, E-cores or not. I think it's just bugged.

Trust me, asking you for TS 9.5.1 was basically the last ditch effort idea that I've had to gain some insight if there was anything malfunctioning with the CPU power logic, but it doesn't seem to be the case. :(

On the upside, I can happily report that everything seems to be tip top on ThrottleStop's side. It works great, all of the power and clock control features work nicely :toast:

Thanks for your time and help, man, I really appreciate it.
 

ProgUn1corn

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I'm using 9.5.1, I found my 13950HX has significantly more idle power than my 11800H. My 2 laptops are running the same Windows 11, the same DisplayCal profile loader in the background. My 11800H can idle at like 0.8~1w, however my 13950HX can only idle at minimum 4.5w, even with CPU at 0.5ghz. My C0% is always at 2 or 3% while 11800H laptop can make 0.5%. Is this normal for HX CPU, that it should be this high, or I missed somthing?
 
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I'm using 9.5.1, I found my 13950HX has significantly more idle power than my 11800H. My 2 laptops are running the same Windows 11, the same DisplayCal profile loader in the background. My 11800H can idle at like 0.8~1w, however my 13950HX can only idle at minimum 4.5w, even with CPU at 0.5ghz. My C0% is always at 2 or 3% while 11800H laptop can make 0.5%. Is this normal for HX CPU, that it should be this high, or I missed somthing?

It will depend on the implementation and OS configuration, but considered it is a 13950HX (essentially a 13900KS mobile edition), its binning and aggressive clockability might result in that slightly higher idle power you are observing, especially when accounting for things such as speed shift that cause the CPU to clock up and down at an insanely fast rate. That 4.5-6 W idle figure is the same I have with my 13900KS. Another thing that may be a factor is the memory used, wouldn't be surprised with a super high end laptop with that CPU would have faster clocked memory than the one with the 11800H.

As always see if your 13950HX isnt running things like Windows Update on the background, that will consume some CPU time.
 
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