• We've upgraded our forums. Please post any issues/requests in this thread.

Intel Appeals Against $1.3 Billion Fine by EU, from 2009

Should Intel pay the fine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 50 79.4%
  • No

    Votes: 13 20.6%

  • Total voters
    63

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
34,335 (9.23/day)
Likes
17,427
Location
Hyderabad, India
System Name Long shelf-life potato
Processor Intel Core i7-4770K
Motherboard ASUS Z97-A
Cooling Xigmatek Aegir CPU Cooler
Memory 16GB Kingston HyperX Beast DDR3-1866
Video Card(s) 2x GeForce GTX 970 SLI
Storage ADATA SU800 512GB
Display(s) Samsung U28D590D 28-inch 4K
Case Cooler Master CM690 Window
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D PCIe
Power Supply Corsair HX850W
Mouse Razer Abyssus 2014
Keyboard Microsoft Sidewinder X4
Software Windows 10 Pro Creators Update
#1
Around three years after the European Commission slapped Intel with a record €1.06 billion fine for anti-competitive practices against market rival AMD, the company appealed against the fine, on grounds that the commission relied on "profoundly inadequate" evidence to establish anti-competition charges against the company, which lead to the fine. A 5-member bench of General Court in Luxembourg, Europe's second highest, will hear arguments of both Intel and EU's regulators, during a 4-day hearing. Intel wants its conviction quashed and its fine reduced/removed. According to European regulators, major computer manufacturers such as HP, Dell, and Lenovo, received unfair rebates from Intel for opting for its chips. The case is T-286/09, Intel vs Commission.

Show full news post
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
1,368 (0.38/day)
Likes
130
Processor AMD Phenom II X4 955 BE Deneb @ 3.7GHz
Motherboard GIGABYTE GA-MA790XT-UD4P
Cooling ZALMAN CNPS9700 CPU Heatsink
Memory OCZ 4GB DDR3 1600 @ 7-7-7-24 1.85v
Video Card(s) ATI Sapphire OC 7850 1200c/5800m @ 64c Full Load
Storage Western Digital Caviar Black 640GB + Western Digital 1TB External Drive
Display(s) SAMSUNG ToC T240 24'' LCD
Case Silverstone FT01-BW
Audio Device(s) Onboard
Power Supply ZALMAN ZM-750
Software Win 7 x64 SP1
#2
sorry intel we already spent it on welfare :)
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
765 (0.31/day)
Likes
160
Location
Pocomoke, MD
System Name Good Enough
Processor Intel G3258 @ 3.8ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte GA-H81M-H
Cooling Stock
Memory G.Skill Ripjaws 8gb
Video Card(s) MSI 650 ti Boost
Storage Crucial MX100 128gb SSD
Display(s) ASUS VN248
Case Coolermaster Ammo 533
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC887
Power Supply Antec BP550
Mouse G502
Keyboard Sidewinder x4
Software Windows 7
#3
So.. intel gave rebates to people for buying their chips? I'm not seeing the problem here.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
1,155 (0.47/day)
Likes
466
System Name Desktop
Processor Intel i7-3930k
Motherboard ASUS Sabertooth X79
Cooling Intel AIO
Memory 8x4GB 1866MHz
Video Card(s) EVGA GTX 970 SC
Storage Adaptec 2405 SAS controller> Hitachi SAS 15k 450GB|2xSeagate 2TB|WD Black 4 TB|HP Ultrium 1760 LTO4
Display(s) HP ZR24w
Case Fractal Define XL Black
Audio Device(s) Schiit Modi Uber>Schiit Asgard 2>Sennheiser HD600
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Logitech G613
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#4
So.. intel gave rebates to people for buying their chips? I'm not seeing the problem here.
It's not "people", read the article again.

major computer manufacturers such as HP, Dell, and Lenovo, received unfair rebates from Intel for opting for its chips.
anti-competitive practices against market rival AMD
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
1,005 (0.22/day)
Likes
94
Location
South Africa
Processor Intel i7-920 @ 4.0GHz LGA1366
Motherboard Intel DX58 Smackover Motherboard
Cooling TRUE 120 with 2x120mm Thermalright FDB-1600 and 8x120mm Zalman/Coolermaster Case Fans
Memory 16GB DDR3-1333 Corsair @ 8-8-8-19
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GTX 1070 FE
Storage Intel 520 240GB + Intel X25-M 80GB + 4TB Seagate/WD Storage
Display(s) 24" Samsung SA350 + 24" BenQ G2410HD + 2x 22" Samsung 2253GW's + Hyundai 19" B91D+
Case Coolermaster CM690
Power Supply Corsair TX750W PSU
Software Windows 8.1
#5
The problem was that supposedly Intel gave rebates to manufacturers if they ONLY use Intel chips. Now this could be done directly, saying "We'll give you discount if you don't use any other manufacturer's chips" - which would be uncompetitive, or indirectly through volume rebates, "We'll give you discount if you buy 100k chips over the next 5 years" - which would be fine.

There's way too little evidence here to make a judgement.
 

Xyvik

New Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
27 (0.01/day)
Likes
6
Location
Arizona
System Name Tigershark III
Processor AMD Phenom II X6 1090T
Motherboard MSI 890FXA
Cooling Stock
Memory 8 gbs
Video Card(s) ATi Radeon 5870
Storage Western Digital VelociRaptor
Case Antec 1200
Power Supply Enermax
#6
The problem was that supposedly Intel gave rebates to manufacturers if they ONLY use Intel chips. Now this could be done directly, saying "We'll give you discount if you don't use any other manufacturer's chips" - which would be uncompetitive, or indirectly through volume rebates, "We'll give you discount if you buy 100k chips over the next 5 years" - which would be fine.

There's way too little evidence here to make a judgement.
I seem to recall that at the time the court thought there was more than enough evidence to show that Intel performed the first part. It was pretty much ironclad fact.

I wonder why they think they can get it overruled? Did they hire better lawyers?
 

Apollo565

New Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2011
Messages
9 (0.00/day)
Likes
0
#7
Where I come from, if you don't pay your fines within 30 days it doubles...I don't know how these big firms get away with it.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
1,005 (0.22/day)
Likes
94
Location
South Africa
Processor Intel i7-920 @ 4.0GHz LGA1366
Motherboard Intel DX58 Smackover Motherboard
Cooling TRUE 120 with 2x120mm Thermalright FDB-1600 and 8x120mm Zalman/Coolermaster Case Fans
Memory 16GB DDR3-1333 Corsair @ 8-8-8-19
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GTX 1070 FE
Storage Intel 520 240GB + Intel X25-M 80GB + 4TB Seagate/WD Storage
Display(s) 24" Samsung SA350 + 24" BenQ G2410HD + 2x 22" Samsung 2253GW's + Hyundai 19" B91D+
Case Coolermaster CM690
Power Supply Corsair TX750W PSU
Software Windows 8.1
#8
I seem to recall that at the time the court thought there was more than enough evidence to show that Intel performed the first part. It was pretty much ironclad fact.

I wonder why they think they can get it overruled? Did they hire better lawyers?
I would think Intel already has some of the best lawyers, maybe they just hired more? ;)

Or maybe they offered their manufacturer partners further rebates if they testified in Intel's favour? :rolleyes:
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
76 (0.02/day)
Likes
5
#9
Intel should pay the money and just charge every EU member state triple for Intel products.We across the pond shouldn't have to pay to bail out Greece,Spain,Italy it sounds like extortion to me especially went the EU was started to counter the U.S. in the 1st place.HP, Dell,... are not "People" oh no sky-net is here!!!
 
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
22,400 (5.82/day)
Likes
8,922
Location
'Merica. The Great SOUTH!
System Name The Mailbox 4.5
Processor Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz
Motherboard Gigabyte Z77X-UP5 TH Intel LGA 1155
Cooling Scythe Katana 4
Memory G.SKILL Sniper Series 16GB DDR3 1866: 9-9-9-24
Video Card(s) MSI 1080 "Duke" with 8Gb of RAM. Boost Clock 1847 MHz
Storage 256Gb M4 SSD, 500Gb WD (7200) 128Gb Agelity 4 SSD
Display(s) LG 29" Class 21:9 UltraWide® IPS LED Monitor 2560 x 1080
Case Cooler Master 922 HAF
Audio Device(s) SupremeFX X-Fi with Bose Companion 2 speakers.
Power Supply SeaSonic X Series X650 Gold
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei (RAW) and a Wacom Intuos 4 tablet.
Keyboard Razer BlackWidow
Software Windows 10 Pro (64-bit)
Benchmark Scores Benching is for bitches.
#10
Their is no anti-trust infringement. The EU is just broke from all its entitlement programs keeping the sheep in place. They will keep doing this until all their eggs are broke. The US will follow suit soon.
 

Frick

Fishfaced Nincompoop
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
14,884 (3.45/day)
Likes
5,414
System Name A dancer in your disco of fire
Processor i3 4130 3.4Ghz
Motherboard MSI B85M-E45
Cooling Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo
Memory 4 x 4GB Crucial Ballistix Sport 1400Mhz
Video Card(s) Asus GTX 760 DCU2OC 2GB
Storage Crucial BX100 120GB | WD Blue 1TB x 2
Display(s) BenQ GL2450HT
Case AeroCool DS Cube White
Power Supply Cooler Master G550M
Mouse Intellimouse Explorer 3.0
Keyboard Dell SK-3205
Software Windows 10 Pro
#11
Their is no anti-trust infringement. The EU is just broke from all its entitlement programs keeping the sheep in place. They will keep doing this until all their eggs are broke. The US will follow suit soon.
Isn't this the case that originated in the early 2000's? If so, they did do some shady stuff back then. Also you're wrong. :p
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
1,155 (0.47/day)
Likes
466
System Name Desktop
Processor Intel i7-3930k
Motherboard ASUS Sabertooth X79
Cooling Intel AIO
Memory 8x4GB 1866MHz
Video Card(s) EVGA GTX 970 SC
Storage Adaptec 2405 SAS controller> Hitachi SAS 15k 450GB|2xSeagate 2TB|WD Black 4 TB|HP Ultrium 1760 LTO4
Display(s) HP ZR24w
Case Fractal Define XL Black
Audio Device(s) Schiit Modi Uber>Schiit Asgard 2>Sennheiser HD600
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Logitech G613
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#12
Intel should pay the money and just charge every EU member state triple for Intel products.We across the pond shouldn't have to pay to bail out Greece,Spain,Italy it sounds like extortion to me especially went the EU was started to counter the U.S. in the 1st place.HP, Dell,... are not "People" oh no sky-net is here!!!
Did you even read the whole thing? I'll quote a part from the linked article:

Intel's trouble in Europe began in 2000, when AMD complained that Intel was blocking its access to the European market.
There was no financial crisis back then, and don't forget where it all started as well.

Also a bit off topic, but I assume you saw the UK court ruling for the Apples lawsuit over HTC? Apple got burned for their patent trolling big time here, and it's clear to me that the EU courts are doing a much better job than the rest of the world.

/rant :laugh:
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Messages
509 (0.22/day)
Likes
165
System Name NZXT 980 Z
Processor 3570K
Motherboard AsRock Z77 O/C Formula
Cooling Custom Liquid
Memory 2133MHz Mushkin Blackline 64g
Video Card(s) 2 X Asus GTX 670 full cover EK blocks
Storage 240 mushkin 2x120 samsungs
Display(s) Asus "24 144Hz
Case Switch 810
Audio Device(s) creative
Power Supply Seasonic platinum
Software w7 steam futuremark
#13
Where I come from, if you don't pay your fines within 30 days it doubles...I don't know how these big firms get away with it.

legal appeals process will grant you time
 
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
883 (0.43/day)
Likes
75
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 1600X
Motherboard AsRock X370 Taichi
Cooling Corsair H60 Liquid Cooling
Memory 16 GB CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 3000 Mhz (Running at 2933)
Video Card(s) Gigabyte G1 GTX 1070
Storage 240 GB Kingston SSD, 7 TB's of HDD
Display(s) Dell 16:10 20" Monitor
Case Phanteks Enthos Pro M
Audio Device(s) Integrated
Power Supply Corsair 750 P2
Mouse Mionix Naos 8200
Keyboard G Skill Ripjaws RGB Mechanical Keyboard
Software Windows 10 Pro
#15
This may be the case why not many AMD chips have been in computers at retail, since I work there. Now where I work most of our desktops are AMD Trinity ones which have excellent prices btw.
 
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
9,025 (2.77/day)
Likes
1,446
Location
Montreal, Canada
System Name Fun waste of money
Processor i7 3930k @ 4 Ghz
Motherboard AsRock X79 Fatal1ty Professional
Cooling Dark Rock Pro 3 (removed 120mm fan)
Memory 32GB (4x8gb) 2133Mhz CL9 Mushkin RedLine
Video Card(s) EVGA ACX 3.0 GTX 1060 6GB
Storage 3.25TB separated in 5 SSDs (SanDisk Extreme Pro, Intel 730 & 520, 2*Crucial MX100)
Display(s) 27" 2560x1440 [Korean] PCBANK PB2700
Case BeQuiet! SilentBase 800
Audio Device(s) iBasso D10 + AKG KXXX
Power Supply EVGA P2 750W 80+ Platinum semi-fanless
Mouse Sensei RAW
Keyboard Black cherry MX Thermaltake ESports
Software Windows 10 Pro X64
#16
I think intel should pay, but it's hard to prove this kind of stuff, as a lot of the times, the evidence is just hearsay etc. Smart move by intel to appeal

plus they get to make interest of the 1+ billion $ year after year lol
 
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
2,425 (0.64/day)
Likes
645
System Name panda
Processor 6700k
Motherboard sabretooth s
Cooling raystorm block<black ice stealth 240 rad<ek dcc 18w 140 xres
Memory 32gb ripjaw v
Video Card(s) 290x gamer<ntzx g10<antec 920
Storage 950 pro 250gb boot 850 evo pr0n
Display(s) QX2710LED@110hz lg 27ud68p
Case 540 Air
Audio Device(s) nope
Power Supply 750w superflower
Mouse g502
Keyboard shine 3 with grey, black and red caps
Software win 10
Benchmark Scores http://hwbot.org/user/marsey99/
#17
cant believe they are still dodging this fine the wankers, not that it helps amd today.
 

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
10,401 (4.84/day)
Likes
5,481
Location
Concord, NH
System Name Kratos
Processor Intel Core i7 3930k @ 4.2Ghz
Motherboard ASUS P9X79 Deluxe
Cooling Zalman CPNS9900MAX 130mm
Memory G.Skill DDR3-2133, 16gb (4x4gb) @ 9-11-10-28-108-1T 1.65v
Video Card(s) MSI AMD Radeon R9 390 GAMING 8GB @ PCI-E 3.0
Storage 2x120Gb SATA3 Corsair Force GT Raid-0, 4x1Tb RAID-5, 1x500GB
Display(s) 1x LG 27UD69P (4k), 2x Dell S2340M (1080p)
Case Antec 1200
Audio Device(s) Onboard Realtek® ALC898 8-Channel High Definition Audio
Power Supply Seasonic 1000-watt 80 PLUS Platinum
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Rosewill RK-9100
Software Ubuntu 17.10
Benchmark Scores Benchmarks aren't everything.
#18
cant believe they are still dodging this fine the wankers, not that it helps amd today.
Intel, being such a large corporation, has a lot of money to entice companies to solely use their processors by law. A smaller (yes AMD is considerably smaller than Intel,) cannot compete with that and it's just Intel's way of cornering the market without become a monopoly. I can't say I agree with it or condone it.
 

evulmunk33

BitFenix Rep
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
100 (0.05/day)
Likes
29
#19
intel press release from 2009:
http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/2009/20091112corp_a.htm

Under terms of the agreement, AMD and Intel obtain patent rights from a new 5-year cross license agreement, Intel and AMD will give up any claims of breach from the previous license agreement, and Intel will pay AMD $1.25 billion. Intel has also agreed to abide by a set of business practice provisions. As a result, AMD will drop all pending litigation including the case in U.S. District Court in Delaware and two cases pending in Japan. AMD will also withdraw all of its regulatory complaints worldwide. The agreement will be made public in filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
so now that amd has withdrawn all its complains and investigations have been stopped, because intel was about to be found guilty by courts, intel wants their money back?
so basically intel tried to silence AMD by paying them off, but the EU court decided to fine intel anyways, even after AMD dropped their complaints?
or does intel want their money back now that AMD has dropped their complaints and Intel isnt scared of being found guilty in court anymore?

either way it makes intel look like a bunch of crooks to me...
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
4,988 (1.76/day)
Likes
1,553
Location
Manchester uk
System Name Quad GT evo V
Processor FX8350 @ 4.8ghz1.525c NB2.64ghz Ht2.84ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte 990X Gaming
Cooling 360EK extreme 360Tt rad all push/pull, cpu,NB/Vrm blocks all EK
Memory Corsair vengeance 32Gb @1333 cas9
Video Card(s) Rx vega 64 waterblockedEK + Rx580 waterblockedEK
Storage samsung 840(250), WD 1Tb+2Tb +3Tbgrn 1tb hybrid
Display(s) Samsung uea28"850R 4k freesync, samsung 40" 1080p
Case Custom(modded) thermaltake Kandalf
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup
Power Supply corsair 1000Rmx
Mouse CM optane
Keyboard CM optane
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 15.69K best overall sandra so far
#20
Intel are wrong to try this, clearly want Moar monnies, greedy gets.


3 am here and just got back to manchester from london, drove now:pimp::pimp::pimp: no 3,, worng tut:eek:
 

Kreij

Senior Monkey Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
13,817 (3.48/day)
Likes
5,524
Location
Cheeseland (Wisconsin, USA)
Processor Intel Core 2 Quad QX9650 Extreme @ 3.0 GHz
Motherboard Asus Rampage Formula
Cooling ZeroTherm Nirvana NV120 Premium
Memory 8GB (4 x 2GB) Corsair Dominator PC2-8500
Video Card(s) 2 x Sapphire Radeon HD6970
Storage 2 x Seagate Barracuda 320GB in RAID 0
Display(s) Dell 3007WFP 30" LCD (2560 x 1600)
Case Thermaltake Armor w/ 250mm Side Fan
Audio Device(s) SupremeFX 8ch Audio
Power Supply Thermaltake Toughpower 750W Modular
Software Win8 Pro x64 / Cat 12.10
#21
Intel are wrong to try this, clearly want Moar monnies, greedy gets.
So Intel settled with AMD.
AMD dropped all worldwide litigation against Intel.
The EU commission still wants to fine them a billion dollars or so even though the plaintiff has dropped all charges.

Who wants Moar Monnies?
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
4,988 (1.76/day)
Likes
1,553
Location
Manchester uk
System Name Quad GT evo V
Processor FX8350 @ 4.8ghz1.525c NB2.64ghz Ht2.84ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte 990X Gaming
Cooling 360EK extreme 360Tt rad all push/pull, cpu,NB/Vrm blocks all EK
Memory Corsair vengeance 32Gb @1333 cas9
Video Card(s) Rx vega 64 waterblockedEK + Rx580 waterblockedEK
Storage samsung 840(250), WD 1Tb+2Tb +3Tbgrn 1tb hybrid
Display(s) Samsung uea28"850R 4k freesync, samsung 40" 1080p
Case Custom(modded) thermaltake Kandalf
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup
Power Supply corsair 1000Rmx
Mouse CM optane
Keyboard CM optane
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 15.69K best overall sandra so far
#22
Who wants Moar Monnies?
Well obv both i agree, but the point is 1.23Billion was signed as part of the deal to quash the cases in the initial deal 3 years ago, but that case alone and not the dropped cases are what the payout was for, ie the payout plus fair trade agreement future, and all claims dropped, that seemed fair enough to me at the time, given they did agree ,, they should pay up, or theyve broke the agreement and Amd can reclaim id imagine:confused:< not high up on law.

The EU commission still wants to fine them a billion dollars or so even though the plaintiff has dropped all charges.
ah,, i see why they are upto this now sos skip read or something

and a 3rd party clearly pisses on the party, the eu commision have nothing to do with Amd though so intel should be made to challenge that with Its law team alone and payup, by the courts, though id agree just to Amd and not the EU, greedy gets:).
 
Last edited:

Andy77

New Member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
119 (0.04/day)
Likes
11
#23
Intel should pay the money and just charge every EU member state triple for Intel products.
They already are... and unless they want AMD to have a bigger market share, they won't.



We across the pond shouldn't have to pay to bail out Greece,Spain,Italy
Pfff, are you serious? $1 bln is a piss drop in a storm... for Greece alone the EU states have coughed up over $250 bln and it's till not enough.


So Intel settled with AMD.
AMD dropped all worldwide litigation against Intel.
The EU commission still wants to fine them a billion dollars or so even though the plaintiff has dropped all charges.

Who wants Moar Monnies?
You usually get mud in your eyes where you're from? /s

It doesn't mater that AMD dropped the lawsuit, it's not AMD that started the inquiry into intel's business practices, it's the EU itself. It's called self-mandated and that's what a state's anti-corruption body, in this case the EC, does when it hears about issues between two parties non-related to said government or the EU. Lawbreaking is still lawbreaking and intel should pay per European law. Whatever ideas you have about US law... you can flush that down the toilet. It doesn't apply here.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
4,357 (1.91/day)
Likes
1,074
Processor Intel Core i7 3770k @ 4.3GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V LK
Memory 16GB(2x8) DDR3@2133MHz 1.5v Patriot
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce GTX 1080 GAMING X 8G
Storage 59.63GB Samsung SSD 830 + 465.76 GB Samsung SSD 840 EVO + 2TB Hitachi + 300GB Velociraptor HDD
Display(s) Acer Predator X34 3440x1440@100Hz G-Sync
Case NZXT PHANTOM410-BK
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Titanium PCIe
Power Supply Corsair 850W
Mouse Anker
Software Win 10 Pro - 64bit
Benchmark Scores 30FPS in NFS:Rivals
#24
They should pay 10bills fine. Only by having a healthy competition, the end user can afford better prices, right?
 
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
3,788 (0.96/day)
Likes
671
Location
Pompano beach, Florida
System Name HAL
Processor Core i7 4770k @ 4.6 ghz.
Motherboard Asus Maximus VII Hero
Cooling H80i Closed loop liquid cooling.
Memory 4x 4 (16) GB Corsair Vengeance ddr3 2133 @ 2200
Video Card(s) GTX 1080 FTW
Storage 256 GB Ocz V4 SSD "Thank you Kreij (Dean)" + 2x 1TB drives.
Display(s) 50" Samsung, UHD, 4k, 60hz.
Case Corsair Carbide MId tower
Audio Device(s) LG system through optical 5.1
Power Supply CORSAIR Enthusiast Series TX850M
Software Microsoft Windows 10 x64
Benchmark Scores Haven (3720), Cinebench (932)
#25
If I'm not getting any money, I don't care.. The government will just take it and blow it and put us into more debt anyway..