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Intel begins construction of two new chip factories in Arizona

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Intel has started building two new chip factories in the US state of Arizona.
These factories, which will be called Fab 52 and Fab 62, will cost a combined $20 billion and should be fully operational by 2024.


 
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I am all for Intel building these factories here in the US, and even though I lived for many years in Arizona, graduated high school in Tucson, I do wish Intel built these in another state where water resources are not critically low and where it is not in such high demands.

It takes gallons of water to produce a single chip. While much of that is recycled, a lot still goes to waste. :(

Phoenix Tops the Nation in Population Growth for the Fifth Year in a Row sure does not help the limited supply. And note Chandler, where these factories are going, is in the Phoenix metro area.
 
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I am all for Intel building these factories here in the US, and even though I lived for many years in Arizona, graduated high school in Tucson, I do wish Intel built these in another state where water resources are not critically low and where it is not in such high demands.

It takes gallons of water to produce a single chip. While much of that is recycled, a lot still goes to waste. :(

Phoenix Tops the Nation in Population Growth for the Fifth Year in a Row sure does not help the limited supply. And note Chandler, where these factories are going, is in the Phoenix metro area.
Certainly not the most forward thinking on Intels part.
 
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You know, Intel can tape out trillions upon trillions of transistors without a single atom of defect, I think they can recycle water if your argument wouldn't rest on that logical flaw.
 
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Certainly not the most forward thinking on Intels part.
Or Arizona's.

Of course this will bring $millions or even $billions, and 1000s of jobs into Arizona's economy. But Arizona depends heavily on its aquafers and other underground water resources, and thanks to rapid population growth and global warming causing extreme drought across more than 95% of the state, those resources are being depleted faster than Mother Nature can replenish them.

The Colorado River is another source, but California siphons much of that - hence nearly a century long "water war" between the two states.
I think they can recycle water if your argument wouldn't rest on that logical flaw.
What "logical" flaw?

As I already noted, they can and do recycle much of the water used during production. Some still goes to waste or is simply consumed during the manufacturing, but also in the factory cooling systems and elsewhere. Not to mention, the factory workers will be consuming water, and flushing it down toilets. A little digging with Google shows a typical semiconductor manufacturing plant consumes as much water in a year as a town of 50,000 people.

While these new factories surely will (or hopefully will) be as "green" and eco-friendly as possible, they are bigger than those in existence when that 2016 article was written.

While they are making significant advances in agriculture to conserve and use water most efficiently, farming (and there is heck of a lot of farming in Arizona) still means dumping vast quantities of water on the ground where only a small amount gets absorbed by the plant. I suspect essentially none makes it back down into the underground water supplies. Most, by far, evaporates and floats away.

Plus, people in Arizona still like and deserve to have their swimming pools, grassy lawns and grassy parks and fairways.
 
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Or Arizona's.

Of course this will bring $millions or even $billions, and 1000s of jobs into Arizona's economy. But Arizona depends heavily on its aquafers and other underground water resources, and thanks to rapid population growth and global warming causing extreme drought across more than 95% of the state, those resources are being depleted faster than Mother Nature can replenish them.

The Colorado River is another source, but California siphons much of that - hence nearly a century long "water war" between the two states.

What "logical" flaw?

As I already noted, they can and do recycle much of the water used during production. Some still goes to waste or is simply consumed during the manufacturing, but also in the factory cooling systems and elsewhere. Not to mention, the factory workers will be consuming water, and flushing it down toilets. A little digging with Google shows a typical semiconductor manufacturing plant consumes as much water in a year as a town of 50,000 people.

While these new factories surely will (or hopefully will) be as "green" and eco-friendly as possible, they are bigger than those in existence when that 2016 article was written.

While they are making significant advances in agriculture to conserve and use water most efficiently, farming (and there is heck of a lot of farming in Arizona) still means dumping vast quantities of water on the ground where only a small amount gets absorbed by the plant. I suspect essentially none makes it back down into the underground water supplies. Most, by far, evaporates and floats away.

Plus, people in Arizona still like and deserve to have their swimming pools, grassy lawns and grassy parks and fairways.
I think you are blinded by common ignorance. Water is not wasted in farming practices unless it is used to desalinate soil.

Most water consumption is for evaporation and maintenance of soil temperature under 20°C, over which is detrimental to the microbiologic life that keeps plants fed with nutrients. For instance even in draught, plants respond by taking more CO2. CO2 scarcity harms plants more than draught, interestingly.

Fungi in particular fight erosion, all we do is keep them alive with nutrients and fertilizers. You cannot farm when the soil quality is not right.
 
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I think you are blinded by common ignorance. Water is not wasted in farming practices unless it is used to desalinate soil.
Talk about common ignorance!

You mention evaporation but do you even know what that is?

Under 20°C? :roll: In Arizona? :roll::roll::roll:

Look at this agricultural map. The yellow is the farming regions in Arizona.

Once again, I grew up in Arizona. Also lived in New Mexico and Southern California. Have you ever been anywhere near the Southwest United States?

You said (my bold underline added),
Most water consumption is for evaporation and maintenance of soil temperature under 20°C
Wow! That's not even common ignorance, but total ignorance!

In terms of water conservation, what do you think evaporation is? It's wasted, its lost, its gone! And in Arizona, its gone forever!!!

The average high temperatures in June, July and August in Phoenix/Maricopa County in Arizona is 106.3°F (41.3°C). Annually, the average high is 87°F (30.6°C). Even at midnight, it can still be 100°F (37.8°C) in the summer months. "Under 20°C"? :roll:
For instance even in draught, plants respond by taking more CO2. CO2 scarcity harms plants more than draught, interestingly.
Yeah? So what? What does that have to do with water scarcity in Arizona? Or the topic of this thread?

Nothing.

You cannot farm when the soil quality is not right.
Ummm, duh!

Maybe before you jump into a thread and start calling others ignorant, you do a little homework and educate yourself so you don't demonstrate your own ignorance first.
 
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This will be interesting to see how they solve this issue.
 
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Talk about common ignorance!

You mention evaporation but do you even know what that is?

Under 20°C? :roll: In Arizona? :roll::roll::roll:

Look at this agricultural map. The yellow is the farming regions in Arizona.

Once again, I grew up in Arizona. Also lived in New Mexico and Southern California. Have you ever been anywhere near the Southwest United States?

You said (my bold underline added),

Wow! That's not even common ignorance, but total ignorance!

In terms of water conservation, what do you think evaporation is? It's wasted, its lost, its gone! And in Arizona, its gone forever!!!

The average high temperatures in June, July and August in Phoenix/Maricopa County in Arizona is 106.3°F (41.3°C). Annually, the average high is 87°F (30.6°C). Even at midnight, it can still be 100°F (37.8°C) in the summer months. "Under 20°C"? :roll:

Yeah? So what? What does that have to do with water scarcity in Arizona? Or the topic of this thread?

Nothing.


Ummm, duh!

Maybe before you jump into a thread and start calling others ignorant, you do a little homework and educate yourself so you don't demonstrate your own ignorance first.
It might be due to your ignorance that soil fungi fight water evaporation which I didn't mention, but your total ignorance made it a compelling point.
You cannot just make broad generalizations like all water use is bad and it is not my place to inform you on all your dramas.
 
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This was brought up for TSMC's investment as well, why is it that Arizona is subsidizing these fabs so heavily & what's the actual shortage about ~ precipitation, groundwater or something else?
 
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Lake Mead supplies the Hoover Damn-it! and further the Colorado River and into Arizona. In the last 20 years or so, Lake Mead the water level has dropped 100 feet, once that runs out, eventually, no power for California and no water for Arizona. So where will Intel get the water then? Ya think Intel will foot the bill for a water pipeline just to make a few chips?
 
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You cannot just make broad generalizations like all water use is bad
Huh? It is really sad your position is so weak that you have to make stuff up and totally mislead and misrepresent what others have said. :(

Not once did I ever say, imply or suggest (in a broad or even narrow generalization) that "all water use is bad". At least be truthful about what others have said, okay?

As far as fungi fighting evaporation - come on! Stop being silly and remember what geographical region of the US and world you are talking about. You are just digging yourself into a bigger hole.

Clearly, you know nothing about growing crops in the desert southwest of the United States. So PLEASE, do yourself a favor and stop spewing nonsense. You really are making yourself look very foolish and ignorant.

There are many ways to "reduce" the rate of evaporation. And yes, fungi in the soil helps. But with the extreme high temperatures in southern Arizona, and the extremely arid air (humidity levels in Maricopa County are commonly less than 15% in June, for example - even less in the Tucson/Pima County area), the impact of fungi in the soil on the rate of evaporation is negligible, at best.

Lake Mead the water level has dropped 100 feet, once that runs out, eventually, no power for California
Not just no power for California. Much of the water is used to water the crops in California too.

And that brings up another point - both California and Arizona keep growing crops that need lots of water too. Arizona, for example, produces lots of beef but also grows citrus and pecan trees, corn and greens. Pinal County (see map above) grow lots of cotton and hay - very thirsty crops. Pima County (where Tucson is) grows "Pima" cotton - considered by many to be the best in the world, is a very thirsty crop. FYI, Pima and Egyptian cotton are actually the same species - just grown in different parts of the world.

California grows walnuts, pistachios, almonds - extremely thirsty crops. California also grows lots of alfalfa, lettuce, oranges, oranges and more oranges - and grapefruit too.

What also hurts Arizona is a 1963 US Supreme Court decision ruled, "Arizona’s rights are junior to other basin states, like neighboring California." So, if/when the water shortage becomes even more critical, Arizona would have to wait in line behind California and hope there is enough left.

Of course it is all about profits today - but long term, those areas of the country probably need to serious consider moving to more water thrifty crops.

Perhaps what needs to be done is more research into desalination of the ocean. They need to figure out how to make it cost effective - without making the oceans so salty it kills off the ocean's plant and wild life.

So where will Intel get the water then? Ya think Intel will foot the bill for a water pipeline just to make a few chips?
There is still lots of underground water in Arizona, so I suspect Intel is digging wells. The problem is the underground water levels are being depleted faster than being filled through what little rain falls there, and from water runoff from winter snows in the mountains. So unless major changes come from all different directions, or its 20 year-long, worst in 125+ years, drought ends and annual rainfalls return to "normal", desperate times are coming.
 
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But with the extreme high temperatures in southern Arizona, and the extremely arid air (humidity levels in Maricopa County are commonly less than 15% in June, for example - even less in the Tucson/Pima County area), the impact of fungi in the soil on the rate of evaporation is negligible, at best.
There aren't special exceptions in how the ecology works.

There are many ways to "reduce" the rate of evaporation. And yes, fungi in the soil helps.
Trying to fight back with my quotes?
As far as fungi fighting evaporation - come on! Stop being silly and remember what geographical region of the US and world you are talking about. You are just digging yourself into a bigger hole.

Deserts just have less fungi, and by the way, thanks for proving fungi are instrumental to soil biology like I said. You are welcome.
 
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Deserts just have less fungi, and by the way, thanks for proving fungi are instrumental to soil biology like I said. You are welcome.
Dude, no one cares. You aren't making any magic point here.
 
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Huh? It is really sad your position is so weak that you have to make stuff up and totally mislead and misrepresent what others have said. :(

Not once did I ever say, imply or suggest (in a broad or even narrow generalization) that "all water use is bad". At least be truthful about what others have said, okay?

As far as fungi fighting evaporation - come on! Stop being silly and remember what geographical region of the US and world you are talking about. You are just digging yourself into a bigger hole.

Clearly, you know nothing about growing crops in the desert southwest of the United States. So PLEASE, do yourself a favor and stop spewing nonsense. You really are making yourself look very foolish and ignorant.

There are many ways to "reduce" the rate of evaporation. And yes, fungi in the soil helps. But with the extreme high temperatures in southern Arizona, and the extremely arid air (humidity levels in Maricopa County are commonly less than 15% in June, for example - even less in the Tucson/Pima County area), the impact of fungi in the soil on the rate of evaporation is negligible, at best.


Not just no power for California. Much of the water is used to water the crops in California too.

And that brings up another point - both California and Arizona keep growing crops that need lots of water too. Arizona, for example, produces lots of beef but also grows citrus and pecan trees, corn and greens. Pinal County (see map above) grow lots of cotton and hay - very thirsty crops. Pima County (where Tucson is) grows "Pima" cotton - considered by many to be the best in the world, is a very thirsty crop. FYI, Pima and Egyptian cotton are actually the same species - just grown in different parts of the world.

California grows walnuts, pistachios, almonds - extremely thirsty crops. California also grows lots of alfalfa, lettuce, oranges, oranges and more oranges - and grapefruit too.

What also hurts Arizona is a 1963 US Supreme Court decision ruled, "Arizona’s rights are junior to other basin states, like neighboring California." So, if/when the water shortage becomes even more critical, Arizona would have to wait in line behind California and hope there is enough left.

Of course it is all about profits today - but long term, those areas of the country probably need to serious consider moving to more water thrifty crops.

Perhaps what needs to be done is more research into desalination of the ocean. They need to figure out how to make it cost effective - without making the oceans so salty it kills off the ocean's plant and wild life.


There is still lots of underground water in Arizona, so I suspect Intel is digging wells. The problem is the underground water levels are being depleted faster than being filled through what little rain falls there, and from water runoff from winter snows in the mountains. So unless major changes come from all different directions, or its 20 year-long, worst in 125+ years, drought ends and annual rainfalls return to "normal", desperate times are coming.

Preach

Intel has to have done its homework. They must have something planned to avoid further exasperating the situation. Common sense says they must, otherwise they are shooting themselves in the foot (or head).
What that is? I have no idea. They literally couldn't have picked a worse state to build these foundries in (well possibly California)!
My question is why the hell would the state, county, city leadership allow this to move forward? The obvious answer is money but i just cant believe their leadership is that blind or flat out stupid. Im amazed that the people of Arizona arent up in arms knowing what the potential for further environmental ruin is. Or are they but its just not being covered?
Where are the individuals that are responsible for protecting the environment in all of this?
 
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Just dismissing false narratives.
No you aren't. You are dismissing the pertinent facts and tossing up irrelevant facts to obfuscate the issues.

Fact: Arizona is in a severe, 20 year long drought.
Fact: The aquafers and supply rivers, like the Colorado are being drained faster than they are being replenished by rainfall and snow runoff.
Fact: Chip manufacturing consumes lots of water, a significant portion of which cannot be recycled.

Fact: Crops releasing CO2 does absolutely nothing to relieve drought, reduce water consumption by factories, or reduce water consumption by crops.
Fact: Fungi content in soil does absolutely nothing to relieve drought, reduce water consumption by factories, or reduce water consumption by crops.

Intel has to have done its homework. They must have something planned to avoid further exasperating the situation. Common sense says they must, otherwise they are shooting themselves in the foot (or head).
No doubt they have done their homework enough to determine there will be enough water available for the "expected" lifespan of those factories. But what's that? 20 years? Maybe. 50 years? I have my doubts. 100 years? No way.
My question is why the hell would the state, county, city leadership allow this to move forward? The obvious answer is money but i just cant believe their leadership is that blind or flat out stupid. Im amazed that the people of Arizona arent up in arms knowing what the potential for further environmental ruin is.
Or are they but its just not being covered?
^^^THIS^^^

Money talks. And money today talks a lot louder than money that won't be realized until after our grandkids have kids.

Money talks. No doubts, Intel was granted HUGE tax incentives to build in that state. And Arizona, in return for those tax breaks envisions HUGE tax revenues from the influx of workers paying income tax, buying new homes, buying new cars, and shopping the local economy.

Where are the individuals that are responsible for protecting the environment in all of this?
What? And who might that be? I am not aware of anyone who has been assigned that responsibility. If there were such people, and if they had the authority to carry out that responsibility, it seems coal burning factories and power plants would have been shut down decades ago. We all would be driving cars that did not use fossil fuels. Everyone would be forced to recycle our trash. Plastics would not be polluting our oceans, lakes and rivers. Etc. Etc.
 
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Fact: Fungi content in soil does absolutely nothing to relieve drought
You are making up your false facts which is why you brought this on yourself through your ignorance and cannot get this sorted for yourself.
Crops releasing CO2
Crops take CO2. Eroding soil gives off CO2. Again, your facts are mixed up. Happens when you are ignorant. I called you out on it and it is pretty obvious when your arguments are singlemindedly uninspiring.
 
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lol, expert vs expert...
 
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You are making up your false facts
Oh? What fact did I make up? I did my homework. I provided links with supporting evidence.
Crops take CO2. Eroding soil gives off CO2. Again, your facts are mixed up
My mistake, made in hastes. You are right. Crops take in CO2 and give off oxygen. My apologies. But is that really the point you want to focus on?

To the REAL point, what does that (CO2 consumption, one way or the other) have to do with crops consuming water that is already is short supply? What does that have to do with Arizona's drought? What does that have to do with factories consuming water?

Is the fact crops "take in" CO2 relevant to this subject of this thread? NO! Is the fact crops "take in" CO2 affect evaporation of water in and on the soil? NO! Does CO2 affect water consumption by these factories? NO! Does the fact crops consume CO2 relate in any way to the topic of this thread? No. Does fungi in the soil? NO!

Does anything you said? Nope!
 
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i'll just leave this here;

In a report, Taiwan Semiconductor said it achieved 86.7% water recycling in 2019, including wastewater and re-use technology. Taiwan Semi plans to build a water "reclaim" facility in Taiwan this year that will re-use water for wafer manufacturing.
In 2019, Intel said it used 12.6 billion gallons of fresh water globally. That was up 40% from 9 billion gallons in 2015. Of the fresh water it used in 2019, Intel says it returned about 80% to local governments as treated wastewater.
 
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i'll just leave this here;

Yes. That still means by best metric 20% ends up wasted. In drought country. It isn't the best forward planning is all we're saying.

Washington has water. And before you scream "buht taxes!" so does Oregon, and they don't like taxes at all. They don't even have a sales tax.
 
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