Korean mom meeting and say goodbye to her deceased daughter one last time in VR

[robot zombie]

I, for one, wouldn't want my last memory of my child to be virtual.

Reasonable way to look at it. Honestly, I don't think I would either. But in this case the parent really seems beyond that way of looking at it. She doesn't think or feel the same as we do.


I can see it another way. What if the last memories you had of your child only caused you pain and made you unable to see them for the good within them? What do you do when the best memories you have of someone only lead to suffering? That's not easy to deal with, because somewhere in your mind you want to embrace them, but instead every time you see a chance to, you register fear instead of peace. And with the way the mind works, it can program itself to make that response stronger over time. It becomes just another layer to the pain. It is no longer about the loss. You can internalize the loss perfectly and still be under the grips of that.

I could see a 'goodbye' like this as maybe helping to resolve that and allowing the person to re-integrate the real memories as something more positive. By forming a few new positive memories, not implicitly tied to the same pain, it might open some new pathways. Sort of creating a scenic route to get around that gridlocked highway and hopefully get where you're trying to go and proceed to really heal. Sometimes, that's just the way it goes.

Pain can rewire you, especially trauma. This is why it can be hard to gauge people's reactions, and why we often find eachother's coping mechanisms strange. Because not everyone is wired the same to begin with. We can think and say how we might react, but that's just how you're wired now. That can change very quickly. You see things differently when you're not directly subject to the same experience in the moment. There are pros and cons, but I want to highlight the gap in perception, because there is a huge difference between how we perceive things, and how this woman perceives things. What makes sense for us can easily have no bearing on her.


I also wonder... do you really see something like this as your last memory of your child? Or is it simply allowing a temporary suspension of disbelief in order to open certain doors? A lot of gray to how people actually perceive and internalize the experience. On one hand, I can see where people might see this as someone losing contact with reality and going further in, but then I am also familiar with the research on psychedelic therapy... so I can see how maybe it's not about believing that the experience is real, but rather meant as a means of integrating the emotions that it leaves you with in a more positive way. I think there is much that can be learned from having a simulated experience, so long as you understand that the goal is not to change your reality, but rather augment how you deal with it.

This is already the basis of a whole lot of trauma therapy - essentially re-writing things to make it so that a person presently unable to cope can take that first step forward and begin to become strong enough to fully face the actual reality of what they have and are still going through. It's very closely tied to a lot of the same methods that are already used in the therapy that people are recommending she go to instead. Simulated experiences are not new at all in the therapeutic world. What we have here is a new way of producing one. One that is more visceral and requires less effort on the part of the participant, which can be very important when we are talking about someone who is struggling to function amidst a steady flow of powerful emotions. If we had the capability to do this back then, the same people who came up with things that are now common practice would have been eager to put them to use and figure out how to use them to help people.

So to me, seeing something like this isn't surprising. I think it was bound to happen. I don't see it as good or bad. Just exploring new avenues of dealing with deep emotional pain and trauma. I think we ought to at least try. I don't think it's good to meet it with disgust. Caution and careful contemplation is better.

To me, it's like... when you're already in a place where a large part of your existence is already defined by reliving terrible memories, how much worse can it really get?


I also gotta address our problems with mental health right now. There has been this push for what I would call 'psuedo mental health' in pop culture, with a heavily narcissistic bend to it. Questioning it seemingly isn't allowed, which makes it hard to have the important conversations. There is a lot of venom and vitriol. I think that does a lot of damage. It's very superficial and encouraging of self-destructive attitudes. It is easy to muster hatred and disdain for it. But the knee jerk reaction to it is just as bad. We're throwing out the baby with the bathwater in a really harsh way. It's no better to assume that something is a part of that same movement just because it only makes people feel better. Dealing with grief is inherently a self-serving endeavor. Doesn't make it any less vital. I don't think it's good that our answer to this mental health craze is to turn our backs reflexively. I can't bring myself to be that cynical, knowing that people may be left out in the cold for it.

This idea that we are too attached to our egos, and that somehow by recognizing that and pushing against it, we are somehow above the same process, really rubs me the wrong way. They are inseparable, and it serves many vital functions in making a person who they are. If you think that somehow you're above that, I got news for ya...

If you actually read up on how narcissism works, you'll realize that if you confront a narcissist on being one, the most common response is denial. They will jump right to arguments for why they are not one, and turn it on to other people. If you truly rate people as a whole as being more narcissistic than you, you may just be the one yourself! The same traits that make someone a narcissist are absolutely vital defense mechanisms that we all learn at a very early age. It's how it is used that defines a narcissist. Not everything that is self-serving is implicitly narcissistic, not in the way that the term is often used, anyway. It's not "all things self-serving are bad". Sometimes that's exactly what a person needs. Doing something only to feel better does not always make you worse off. Everyone with a functioning ego does that all of the time. We actually can't function as unified entities otherwise. You would simply cease to exist. And at the same time be devoid of any judgement on others...

It's like "Look at all of these people, only caring about themselves! Look how I am not like them!" From the outside looking in, that is an interesting take.

 

[trickson]

I just do not see how this can help anyone handle death.
If the person is dead and you know this then a VR of that dead person is nothing at all.
I mean this story is rife with all kinds of cry's for help.
SO bringing a fake VR version of your dead child to life to say good bye? This some how helps? I just can not see the connection.
In your mind you will see both the funeral the death and then this VR version will be right before your eyes!
Talk about mind *(king....

 

[sepheronx]

My colleague had lost his daughter a couple years ago. She was 13 years old. Something like this while may give him the ability to hear her and see her again, he would also know that it just isn't her. It may also cause emotions he previously decided to bottle up and I don't know if that is good or bad. All I know is it's something that will never leave you. No matter what.

I know if one of my daughter's passed this wouldn't help me. I am a man of faith so I would rather keep my belief in hopes to see the loved ones again someday. So I don't know if it would help me at all.

It's hard to say. But this is me. Only thing I would like to use this for is to see a virtual concert of the Partridge family since David Cassidy had passed.

 

[Xzibit]

I just do not see how this can help anyone handle death.
If the person is dead and you know this then a VR of that dead person is nothing at all.
I mean this story is rife with all kinds of cry's for help.
SO bringing a fake VR version of your dead child to life to say good bye? This some how helps? I just can not see the connection.
In your mind you will see both the funeral the death and then this VR version will be right before your eyes!
Talk about mind *(king....

If you read the articles that depict the Mom's experience prior to the girls death. She seams traumatized by the daughters illness which took a month long before taking her life. She seams to recall hospital interactions that were not pleasing to her (Kid not being comfortable).

 

[trickson]

in 2012 my friends daughter (whom I had just spoke to and fixed her computer that very day) was killed by a drink driver, He (along with hundreds in the Santa Fe New Mexico community ) we devastated by the loss of 4 teen age children!
I remember going to his home the next day in tears with my wife we just could NOT even begin to imagine his pain.
I know bringing her back like this would only make it that much harder on him and his wife.
I did say good bye to her that night I just never knew it was going to be forever. she was such a bright young women that could play the piano AMAZINGLY too her dad got both of them 2 YES GRAN Pianos !
He had them both in his house they would play together and fill that place with beauty.
We all have losses in life but VR is NOT a way to solve your pain. It's just my honest opinion.

Damn don't be so angry just because my thoughts do not line with yours okay. WOW so much anger.... I did not know that this could cause that much anger OMG what a killer thread!

I LOVE TPU!

 

[robot zombie]

My colleague had lost his daughter a couple years ago. She was 13 years old. Something like this while may give him the ability to hear her and see her again, he would also know that it just isn't her. It may also cause emotions he previously decided to bottle up and I don't know if that is good or bad. All I know is it's something that will never leave you. No matter what.

That's definitely a real concern. But is bottling them up any better or is that a person who simply appears to himself and others to be okay? What happens if those emotions are brought out unexpected later?

I think you kind of have to know going in that it's not real and that it isn't going to solve your problems. That's not the intent. It can only open a door. You yourself still have to let go and walk through. A VR trip isn't going to do that for you.

Sometimes certain emotions do need a way out of you. And that can manifest as its own kind of pain, but often that is a pain that can be dealt with. What I think would matter most for someone undergoing something like this to have a plan and a network of trained people and people close who care there to help coach them through it. I'm talking a fully professional, medical environment.

Everyone copes in their own ways. Some do it on their own. Sometimes we all need a little help. No shame in that, in my book. So long as you recognize what you're in for and there is a clear path that you're trying to walk.

That's the other side of it, I suppose. You can't just jump up and do something like this. You would need to prepare yourself. To go in thinking you're gonna do it and just feel better, is a recipe for disaster. It's another trauma waiting to happen.

My definition of trauma is simple. It's when something really terrible happens, that was until that moment completely outside of your reality... so far beyond it, in fact, that everything that defines you, the world, and life, can no longer be consolidated. It's an experience that undermined your whole conception of what it is to experience things. If you truly grasp that this is how things are going to be, and these terrible things can happen, it is still painful, but it doesn't have that lasting trauma.

This is how it's often approached, too. The point of reliving it in a controlled way is that the second time around, you have a chance to prepare for it and reach a point of acceptance that you never had a shot at before. As a part of dedicated counseling and therapy, this could be just another tool on their belt, and a very valuable one, at that.

 

[DrCR]

Oh wow, I really hope whatever family goes down this path at least owns the developed assets, not the company. Otherwise said assets could appear in undesired contexts, no hacking involved.

Breaking news VR facilities are HACKED and people are loosing there minds watching there loved ones being brutalized! LOL!

 

[robot zombie]

Oh wow, I really hope whatever family goes down this path at least owns the developed assets, not the company. Otherwise those art assets could appear in undesired contexts, no hacking involved.

I would hope, at least in the states, that it would be treated as part of someone's medical records. As in... it goes absolutely nowhere without consent of the patient. That's assuming that at some point this would ultimately be counted as part of a procedure. Wild-west would definitely be very bad.

 

[moproblems99]

I also gotta address our problems with mental health right now. There has been this push for what I would call 'psuedo mental health' in pop culture, with a heavily narcissistic bend to it. Questioning it seemingly isn't allowed, which makes it hard to have the important conversations. There is a lot of venom and vitriol. I think that does a lot of damage. It's very superficial and encouraging of self-destructive attitudes. It is easy to muster hatred and disdain for it. But the knee jerk reaction to it is just as bad. We're throwing out the baby with the bathwater in a really harsh way. It's no better to assume that something is a part of that same movement just because it only makes people feel better. Dealing with grief is inherently a self-serving endeavor. Doesn't make it any less vital. I don't think it's good that our answer to this mental health craze is to turn our backs reflexively. I can't bring myself to be that cynical, knowing that people may be left out in the cold for it.

This idea that we are too attached to our egos, and that somehow by recognizing that and pushing against it, we are somehow above the same process, really rubs me the wrong way. They are inseparable, and it serves many vital functions in making a person who they are. If you think that somehow you're above that, I got news for ya...

If you actually read up on how narcissism works, you'll realize that if you confront a narcissist on being one, the most common response is denial. They will jump right to arguments for why they are not one, and turn it on to other people. If you truly rate people as a whole as being more narcissistic than you, you may just be the one yourself! The same traits that make someone a narcissist are absolutely vital defense mechanisms that we all learn at a very early age. It's how it is used that defines a narcissist. Not everything that is self-serving is implicitly narcissistic, not in the way that the term is often used, anyway. It's not "all things self-serving are bad". Sometimes that's exactly what a person needs. Doing something only to feel better does not always make you worse off. Everyone with a functioning ego does that all of the time. We actually can't function as unified entities otherwise. You would simply cease to exist. And at the same time be devoid of any judgement on others...

It's like "Look at all of these people, only caring about themselves! Look how I am not like them!" From the outside looking in, that is an interesting take.

All kinds of this. As a global society, we could save so many people and so much money if we focused on treating people's mental health instead of creating and enforcing laws that are only there to clean up the pieces of the events that already took place. I know this forum is not political but this particular topic is a pretty difficult one to actually discuss without delving in.

Like robot zombie said, mental health is really only discussed superficially. While down in the nitty gritty, if you try to get help, you immediately get shunned and blacklisted by the people who tell you to get help. It is a very cruel circle. I once was one of the people who did the shunning, though in my much earlier years. As I have grown older, I quickly came to realize that we are all carrying around our own baggage and keeping a few skeletons in our closet.

I feel for the mother, I do. But I really don't think this was a very good idea. The same thing could have been done while looking at a picture. I do hope she found what she needed but I am afraid she didn't. I would very much like to see this as one off experiment because I feel the drawbacks are going to very significantly outweigh the benefits.

 

[robot zombie]

All kinds of this. As a global society, we could save so many people and so much money if we focused on treating people's mental health instead of creating and enforcing laws that are only there to clean up the pieces of the events that already took place. I know this forum is not political but this particular topic is a pretty difficult one to actually discuss without delving in.

Like robot zombie said, mental health is really only discussed superficially. While down in the nitty gritty, if you try to get help, you immediately get shunned and blacklisted by the people who tell you to get help. It is a very cruel circle. I once was one of the people who did the shunning, though in my much earlier years. As I have grown older, I quickly came to realize that we are all carrying around our own baggage and keeping a few skeletons in our closet.

Definitely. It is a total corruption. My concern now is that in sort of popularizing this superficial mental heath, people who see the flaws in it end up turning away from the concept entirely. So the people who really need the help, as well as people who could be doing the helping instead deny what is right in front of them. I see a lot of people swinging to the same extremes that they do in politics. Somewhere in the middle, both sides have their uses.

And yeah... man getting older is crazy. The amount of baggage I have racked up these past 10 years has turned my whole way of seeing people upside down. I think it's been worth it, though. I don't wish to undo any of it. Which I think is how you're ultimately supposed to feel. And because of that I can see where other people are struggling.

I feel for the mother, I do. But I really don't think this was a very good idea. The same thing could have been done while looking at a picture. I do hope she found what she needed but I am afraid she didn't. I would very much like to see this as one off experiment because I feel the drawbacks are going to very significantly outweigh the benefits.

I think it could just as easily be an extension of seeing the picture. As in, if the VR manifestation of this method is bad, then so was looking at the picture. And we have to start moving in another direction entirely. And maybe after trying this, that might indeed be the conclusion. It could be like a magnifying glass into an aspect of the psyche that we might have been taking for granted.

I don't believe that anybody finds what they need only through things like that. Even this VR stuff is a small thing in the big picture of coping with that level of grief. I think properly tempered and conceived, it might be of some help. But there does need to be a clear understanding of the reality and the actual impact before it can be put to use.

But because of that, I also think that there is a need for further study. But it needs to be done in a careful and controlled way. That goes back to pop mental health, where whatever people think is helpful is adopted and whatever people think is not is shunned, without ever getting shaken down by real research. It's a double-edge.

 

[R-T-B]

Society. Oh, she fells good now. Yay, Keep ignore the possible signs of Mental Health until they are too late.

Yeah, I'll leave that up to real psyhciatrists to tell me it's harmful, not forumites on TPU, no offense.

In other breaking news, losing a child is bad for your mental health in general.

Was one even provided for the family through this process?

Oh sheesh, should I get acredited with one for converting VHS tapes of old family memories of grandma too? I mean, gotta make sure they aren't "living in the past."

 

[Xzibit]

Yeah, I'll leave that up to real psyhciatrists to tell me it's harmful, not forumites on TPU, no offense.

In other breaking news, losing a child is bad for your mental health in general.

Funny cause i been more concerned about her mental health then others that are cheering VR tech. Every ones got different priorities.

You might not want to venture into the VR sites that posted a form of this story. They are far more brutal than this thread.

 

[moproblems99]

I think it could just as easily be an extension of seeing the picture. As in, if the VR manifestation of this method is bad, then so was looking at the picture. And we have to start moving in another direction entirely. And maybe after trying this, that might indeed be the conclusion. It could be like a magnifying glass into an aspect of the psyche that we might have been taking for granted.

I am more thinking of the digital assets staying where they are put and what happens when they get out.

I don't have children so I can't pretend to understand her position but if my wife were to go, I can't say I would even entertain this.

Additionally, I think the money would be better spent in enhancing "traditional" mental health therapy. Let's get that right first.

 

[trickson]

I am more thinking of the digital assets staying where they are put and what happens when they get out.

I don't have children so I can't pretend to understand her position but if my wife were to go, I can't say I would even entertain this.

Additionally, I think the money would be better spent in enhancing "traditional" mental health therapy. Let's get that right first.

I think I was saying this too just not as well I guess.
It seems to easy to take advantage of and or abuse. at every level from financial to emotional to mental. Just seems too risky too much playing GOD there has to be a point of healing and letting go and dealing and this women just hasn't done any of it. For years. How many times you think she can go BACK? How many times will she go back to the well to dig her dead child up and excusing it away saying I just wanted to teach her to ride a bike I never got that chance, Well NOW you CAN! Just step into this VR chamber and see your fantasy come to life!
It's sick and can be used as fun or folly and this VR aspect is Folly!
Just an observation and opinion.

 

[Bones]

I can only speak for myself here.

My colleague had lost his daughter a couple years ago. She was 13 years old. Something like this while may give him the ability to hear her and see her again, he would also know that it just isn't her. It may also cause emotions he previously decided to bottle up and I don't know if that is good or bad. All I know is it's something that will never leave you. No matter what.

It's something that stays until you, yourself are gone.
The passing of a loved one - It's part of not only who, but what we are. It makes one appreciate the time we do have with them and it's never a good thing to see a parent laying their child to rest. As for the VR part, to me at least this isn't "Right" in that it's just not natural.

All my instincts says "No" to it.
It's a choice each of us has to make for themselves to view it as acceptable or not and nothing wrong with making that choice - In fact it's your right to whether someone else agrees or not and you very well should.

I know if one of my daughter's passed this wouldn't help me. I am a man of faith so I would rather keep my belief in hopes to see the loved ones again someday. So I don't know if it would help me at all.

I too am a man of faith and hold the hope this really isn't "Goodbye" when it happens, it's better to have hope than not and helps deal with such loss.

It's hard to say. But this is me. Only thing I would like to use this for is to see a virtual concert of the Partridge family since David Cassidy had passed.

A VR concert it's not so bad because it's not about saying goodbye or grieving, two totally different situations here.

Speaking of reference, If you haven't seen the movie "Caprica" you need to and this is why I made reference to it.
It deals directly with this very subject and how it all went totally sideways.

You cannot replace what it is that makes us "Human" with the technological, you can try but in the end it always fails which it points out.
Guys I know it's just a Sci-Fi movie but still, it can make you think about things like this in a different light.
BTW it is a good movie.

This has potential to become something it shoudn't like so many other things you can name tech-related already have, that's just my worry about it.

Not gonna criticize anyone here, call folks out or anything else over it.
That's it on my part and I'm outta here.

 

[Apocalypsee]

I dont know what to say about this, if the person like in the video feels better doing so then its her choice.

If you asked me, the thing I miss the most is my late grandmother. When she passed 11 years ago, I will dream about her everytime I sleep (regardless of time, short nap in the afternoon or at night) and I will cry each time it happened. This goes on for three months. If you asked me would I want to met her again in VR the answer is NO. I dont want to experience that kind of trauma ever again. I still remember her from time to time.

 

[xkm1948]

A different angle:

Will you digitize your consciousness and materialize yourself (figuratively) in either VR or hologram or even a synesthetic host body (Wesworld style) after your biological body decayed beyond repair?

Love it or hate it. When the technology matured to the level of "possible" it WILL be done. Just like the CRISPR edited human embryo, It is only a matter of time.

 

[R-T-B]

Funny cause i been more concerned about her mental health then others that are cheering VR tech. Every ones got different priorities.

I'll be concerned about it when there is an ounce of evidence saying it is concerning.

You might not want to venture into the VR sites that posted a form of this story. They are far more brutal than this thread.

Trust me, I'm a big frog and don't need to be told where I can and can't go.

 

[robot zombie]

I'll be concerned about it when there is an ounce of evidence saying it is concerning.

There are a lot of concerned people out there on the internet. It's like people read something, and they feel they must form some sort of judgement on it immediately. But that is really a whole nother can of worms.

 

[R-T-B]

There are a lot of concerned people out there on the internet. It's like people read something, and they feel they must form some sort of judgement on it immediately. But that is really a whole nother can of worms.

I know, believe me. It's not really human nature to take an unbiased look at anything. Kneejerk responses rule the day in general. It obviously gets even worse in a low immediate-consequence environment like the web.

 

[Xzibit]

There are a lot of concerned people out there on the internet. It's like people read something, and they feel they must form some sort of judgement on it immediately. But that is really a whole nother can of worms.

Yup people are willing to form that it helped her while asking others to prove it didn't.

Treating mental health like if its an on/off switch.

 

[robot zombie]

Yup people are willing to form that it helped her while asking others to prove it didn't.

Treating mental health like if its an on/off switch.

Does anybody actually believe that mental health works on an on/off switch?

 

[Xzibit]

Does anybody actually believe that mental health works on an on/off switch?

Apparently because people always wait for Neon signs and you always hear they never saw things coming or getting worse.

 

[R0H1T]

Yup people are willing to form that it helped her while asking others to prove it didn't.

Treating mental health like if its an on/off switch.

That thing called mind is a wonderful thing, isn't it? it tells you that the sugary waffle is delicious, even though it's bad for your health. You knowingly take that bite even when it'll likely cause you diabetes, among other things, at some point in your life. You drink that coffee knowing the caffeine may cause hypertension, yet for some it's the daily equivalent of water.

Have you seen the Joker recently? In more ways than one, it is your mind that tells you whether you're fine or not, meds don't even come close to the effect your own consciousness has over yourself. Clearly I'm no expert in medicine but I do know this for a fact that anything that stops or can stop you going over the edge is good in my books, especially if it doesn't involve prescription drugs.

As far as I'm concerned it's at least worth a try. Your mileage will vary though, as is always the case in life!

 

[Xzibit]

That thing called mind is a wonderful thing, isn't it? it tells you that the sugary waffle is delicious, even though it's bad for your health. You knowingly take that bite even when it'll likely cause you diabetes, among other things, at some point in your life. You drink that coffee knowing the caffeine may cause hypertension, yet for some it's the daily equivalent of water.

Have you seen the Joker recently? In more ways than one, it is your mind that tells you whether you're fine or not, meds don't even come close to the effect your own consciousness has over yourself. Clearly I'm no expert in medicine but I do know this for a fact that anything that stops or can stop you going over the edge is good in my books, especially if it doesn't involve prescription drugs.

As far as I'm concerned it's at least worth a try. Your mileage will vary though, as is always the case in life!

Let me be clear i'm not against this tech. Tech will always move forward in avenues we like or dislike. If it gets to trials and this eventually is beneficial good. Its the casualness that this one time session is a definitive solution. Speaking about PDs how much would a 8 month development of VR cost, what would be the co-pay or out of pocket expense.

To follow your analogy. A Diabetic indulges in sugar. Tomorrow he still wakes up with diabetes but as a story you focus on how happy the diabetic was during that sugar indulgent.