Late 90s retro gaming build advice

[Bones]

Yes.
In the pic shown within the previous post you can see how the tops of the caps are bulged upwards, regardless whether the cap is leaking crap or not the bulging means the cap is on it's way out and needs replacement. Obviously any cap that's leaking, bulged or not is bad too.

Another thing to know is you have to install the new caps with the same polarity as the old ones - Yes, they have polarity. The ground side of the cap has a stripe on it and polarity is normally indicated on the board itself once the old cap is removed.
Normally the area of ground is filled in white at the spot on the board where these go but this isn't always the case.

Be sure to look at and note how the old ones come out (Orientation to + and - ) and just set the new ones back in the same way.

 

[CLXIV]

Yes.
In the pic shown within the previous post you can see how the tops of the caps are bulged upwards, regardless whether the cap is leaking crap or not the bulging means the cap is on it's way out and needs replacement. Obviously any cap that's leaking, bulged or not is bad too.

Another thing to know is you have to install the new caps with the same polarity as the old ones - Yes, they have polarity. The ground side of the cap has a stripe on it and polarity is normally indicated on the board itself once the old cap is removed.
Normally the area of ground is filled in white at the spot on the board where these go but this isn't always the case.

Be sure to look at and note how the old ones come out (Orientation to + and - ) and just set the new ones back in the same way.

Thanks Bones, that's really helpful to know! (it hadn't even occurred to me)

Hopefully the capacitors are all fine (I've not seen a high-res photo but the board does look shiny clean) but if not, would be a good new experience to swap some out (after practicing my soldering first).

 

[Bones]

Just get an old, dead board you can practice with.
Be sure to use flux when soldering, makes a real difference no matter what composition the solder you're using is. When done make sure to do a wiggle test, the legs of the cap should not move if it's in place properly. I normally try to rock it in a direction from cap leg to cap leg and see if the legs try to go in and out of the hole. Side to side works too for checking but that's the best way to tell if it has a good bond or not.

Beware of cooking the hole(s) the legs go into, that means literally burning up the solder and copper trace the solder must adhere to for making a connection in the first place inside the hole. Be careful of that and you will develop a feel for what's going on for the desoldering/soldering process.

 

[CLXIV]

Just get an old, dead board you can practice with.
Be sure to use flux when soldering, makes a real difference no matter what composition the solder you're using is. When done make sure to do a wiggle test, the legs of the cap should not move if it's in place properly. I normally try to rock it in a direction from cap leg to cap leg and see if the legs try to go in and out of the hole. Side to side works too for checking but that's the best way to tell if it has a good bond or not.

Beware of cooking the hole(s) the legs go into, that means literally burning up the solder and copper trace the solder must adhere to for making a connection in the first place inside the hole. Be careful of that and you will develop a feel for what's going on for the desoldering/soldering process.

Shouldn't be a problem - I have a whole load of old network cards and modems that were getting thrown out anyway, plus my old 5970 (though that seems to have a different kind of capacitor that sits on square plastic bases instead of going through the board, so maybe just the NICs and modems).

 

[Grog6]

If it's being hard to unsolder, using a heat gun to preheat the area to ~100C or so will help immensely.

I had to do that recently.

In addition on what was said about cooking them, be careful not to pull the "barrel" out of the hole by using too much force; properly unsoldered, they should just slide out.
If you separate the barrel, the inner layer traces aren't going to make connection anymore, and the board will be dead.

That's why people tell you to practice, and/or get someone who knows what they're doing to do this for you.

I believe people can do anything they put their minds to, but I keep getting proven wrong, lol.
Take your time, and practice on something you hate.

Also, the new caps may be marked differently; make sure which side has the line, and mark it down somewhere before you remove them; then check the datasheet for the replacements.
The poly ones I ordered had the positive marked, the old ones had the negative.

If you put them in backwards, they explode like a large firecracker.

 

[CLXIV]

If it's being hard to unsolder, using a heat gun to preheat the area to ~100C or so will help immensely.

I had to do that recently.

In addition on what was said about cooking them, be careful not to pull the "barrel" out of the hole by using too much force; properly unsoldered, they should just slide out.
If you separate the barrel, the inner layer traces aren't going to make connection anymore, and the board will be dead.

That's why people tell you to practice, and/or get someone who knows what they're doing to do this for you.

I believe people can do anything they put their minds to, but I keep getting proven wrong, lol.
Take your time, and practice on something you hate.

Also, the new caps may be marked differently; make sure which side has the line, and mark it down somewhere before you remove them; then check the datasheet for the replacements.
The poly ones I ordered had the positive marked, the old ones had the negative.

If you put them in backwards, they explode like a large firecracker.

Haha well that doesn't sound good. Good advice though, appreciate it. Feeling pretty geared for doing it now!

I don't have a heat gun but my wife has a hair dryer - would that do the trick?

 

[Grog6]

Yes, actually, with the bonus of not overheating the board.

With an industrial heat gun, that can melt solder, you can burn the PCB.

Hair dryers are designed to not set your hair on fire, IDK what temp that is.

 

[Bones]

Yes, actually, with the bonus of not overheating the board.

With an industrial heat gun, that can melt solder, you can burn the PCB.

Hair dryers are designed to not set your hair on fire, IDK what temp that is.

A hairdryer can burn the PCB too, I've done just that before.
Getting a proper soldering setup is the only real way to go and they are cheaper than you'd think: 862D+ 2in1 SMD Soldering Iron Hot Air Rework Station Desoldering Repair 110V 700161303124 | eBay
This is the exact station I have and it's always worked well for me.
Just search for "solder station" on fleabay and you'll see a ton of these up for grabs.

 

[Grog6]

On the recent mobo I had to do, my standard setup wasn't up to the task, nor was the 140W Weller "backup" iron.

A preheater was required to heat the large areas of copper planes in the mobo.

Technitool sells preheaters; I've just never needed one.

100C from the heat gun won't hurt the PCB; the time at soldering temperatures, 350-400C is the important part.

I normally use a heat gun for most of my soldering at work, using solder paste from a syringe to attach components.

A hair dryer won't actually melt solder, so I doubt it will char a PCB.
YMMV, however.

 

[Bones]

On the recent mobo I had to do, my standard setup wasn't up to the task, nor was the 140W Weller "backup" iron.

A preheater was required to heat the large areas of copper planes in the mobo.

Technitool sells preheaters; I've just never needed one.

100C from the heat gun won't hurt the PCB; the time at soldering temperatures, 350-400C is the important part.

I normally use a heat gun for most of my soldering at work, using solder paste from a syringe to attach components.

A hair dryer won't actually melt solder, so I doubt it will char a PCB.
YMMV, however.

Oh yes it can - I was using one to remove caps from a board years ago when I burned it.

If it coudn't I never would have been able to remove those caps from the board I was robbing at the time. Wasn't worried if I burned it because the board itself was trashed but knew the caps were good so I salvaged them. Solder temps are normally around 380 to 400f and that's what I normally use with mine.
If the solder is a different type (DFI's tend to have it) I have to go hotter before it actually melts but the typical melting point of commonly used solders is about 380f.

 

[CLXIV]

Well this soldering business is sounding a bit more demanding than I had anticipated I'll definitely replace any that clearly need replacing, though it's now a little amusing to me that I had been considering replacing the whole lot just to be on the safe side!

On another subject, I forgot to ask before about PSU. I don't recall wattages being higher than 350w in those days so presumably that's sufficient for (let's say) a 1GHz Athlon and the Voodoo3? Nothing else going in there other than the usuals (plus the Soundblaster). Presumably floppy drives will just need a standard molex? So three molexes (HDD, FDD, CDROM) and motherboard power I guess is all I need, no other considerations?

 

[Keullo-e]

350W is enough for 1GHz Athlon & Voodoo 3. You could easily use a faster GPU, I had a 1GHz @ 1.4GHz Athlon, GF4 Ti 4200 & 2x 40GB 7200rpm HDDs back in the day with a low-tier 350W cheap PSU and never ran into any problems.

 

[CLXIV]

350W is enough for 1GHz Athlon & Voodoo 3. You could easily use a faster GPU, I had a 1GHz @ 1.4GHz Athlon, GF4 Ti 4200 & 2x 40GB 7200rpm HDDs back in the day with a low-tier 350W cheap PSU and never ran into any problems.

Thanks Chloe, yeah I thought it would probably be fine. Thinking about it, I think floppy drives were powered by something like a large fan connector (unless I'm losing my mind) but obviously any 90s PSU should have at least a couple of those, so sounds like I'll be fine with pretty much anything old.

 

[Keullo-e]

Thanks Chloe, yeah I thought it would probably be fine. Thinking about it, I think floppy drives were powered by something like a large fan connector (unless I'm losing my mind) but obviously any 90s PSU should have at least a couple of those, so sounds like I'll be fine with pretty much anything old.

No problem! And molex Y splitter cables are cheap if you run out of cables. It's the berg connector what 3.5" floppy drives use, well, usually just called a floppy power connector.

The only other use for those are some graphics cards (Radeon 9500 (Pro), Radeon 9700 (Pro), few newer AGP Radeons) and PATA-SATA adapters etc.

 

[CLXIV]

No problem! And molex Y splitter cables are cheap if you run out of cables. It's the berg connector what 3.5" floppy drives use, well, usually just called a floppy power connector.

The only other use for those are some graphics cards (Radeon 9500 (Pro), Radeon 9700 (Pro), few newer AGP Radeons) and PATA-SATA adapters etc.

That's interesting about the Radeons, I did not know that! I had a 9700 (think I still have it actually) but I don't think mine had any additional power connector (could be wrong though). I had been wondering recently actually when graphics cards first started getting power connectors (pretty certain my 8800GTX did, not sure before that).

 

[Keullo-e]

9700 Pro was the first from ATI, FX 5800 from Nvidia

 

[CLXIV]

9700 Pro was the first from ATI, FX 5800 from Nvidia

Thanks! You're better than Google I found that 9700 and I was wrong - floppy connector right there top right. Had a lot of issues with that card and crossed my mind that maybe I didn't know at the time to plug a floppy power connector into it, but I guess it probably wouldn't even boot without one (or at least wouldn't render 3D games at all). It certainly did handle UT2003 nicely though!

 

[Keullo-e]

Thanks! You're better than Google I found that 9700 and I was wrong - floppy connector right there top right. Had a lot of issues with that card and crossed my mind that maybe I didn't know at the time to plug a floppy power connector into it, but I guess it probably wouldn't even boot without one (or at least wouldn't render 3D games at all). It certainly did handle UT2003 nicely though!

Nah, just a dude who loves older hardware

I have to admit, ATIs drivers were pretty bad back then, I got my first 9700 Pro in 2006 and then it worked like a charm, had a Zalman VF700-AlCu cooler on it and it performed better than a stock 9800 Pro when I overclocked it

...traded that GF 4 Ti 4200 which I mentioned before to it, just put some cash with it.

edit: but these days, I love the most my HD 3850 AGP, the fastest AGP card made (there was HD 3870 AGP prototypes, but they never made for us consumers) but I also have a 9700 Pro, not the same which I had back then, but anyway.

 

[CLXIV]

Nah, just a dude who loves older hardware

I have to admit, ATIs drivers were pretty bad back then, I got my first 9700 Pro in 2006 and then it worked like a charm, had a Zalman VF700-AlCu cooler on it and it performed better than a stock 9800 Pro when I overclocked it

...traded that GF 4 Ti 4200 which I mentioned before to it, just put some cash with it.

edit: but these days, I love the most my HD 3850 AGP, the fastest AGP card made (there was HD 3870 AGP prototypes, but they never made for us consumers) but I also have a 9700 Pro, not the same which I had back then, but anyway.

Ah yeah I had one of the Zalman copper flower coolers on my CPU! They did some fairly nice cases too. Shame they went under. I'd have held onto that Ti 4200 personally, but those rough edges you mentioned may have lowered my opinion of ATi / AMD a little... but of course not to the extent that I'd get rid of my old Radeons! It will definitely be the Voodoo3 in this setup though, assuming of course it still works (failing that, it's my TNT2 Pro or maybe Geforce2 MX, but that's a little newer than the rest of the stuff).

 

[Keullo-e]

Well, I got so good deal that that GF4 + some cash -> 9700 Pro was an offer I couldn't refuse Had an Athlon XP 2600+ & 1.5GB back then.

But hey, just use some newer drivers, up from 2007 and I'm pretty sure you're problem-free, I have that 9700 Pro & X800 Pro from those older AGP cards and they run flawlessly with those two retro rigs from my signature

 

[CLXIV]

Met the guy, got the stuff! (spent half the night wondering around the middle of bloody nowhere but totally worth it)

Looks like the memory is 2x256MB PC133 CL3 (pretty happy with that!) and the processor... well I'm beginning to see why the seller couldn't say what it is - the cooler is clamped on the socket so tight it might as well be welded on. I remember how easy it was to crack the dies on these Athlons with 3rd-party coolers. When I find the courage to remove it (think I have to really if this is 20-year-old thermal paste) then I'll post the model.

Looking at this for power:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FSP-FSP2...988593?hash=item1cd940d371:g:HOUAAOSwBG9crCVp

I like the brand and I like the price. Connectors also are ideal. Not sure about the 3.3v though - isn't that the rail these Athlons run on? Seems like it could be snug for the higher-end Thunderbirds plus an AGP graphics card (assuming the PCI Voodoo doesn't work and I use my AGP TNT2 Pro instead).

 

[Deleted member 185158]

Twist or turn the heatsink. It'll break free, shouldn't have any damages.

Socket A chips, I've ran a few cracked cores. A few of them with broken off corners too. That's the silicon over the insulator. (SOI) pretty much the heat transfer and protection layer of the core.

 

[CLXIV]

Twist or turn the heatsink. It'll break free, shouldn't have any damages.

Socket A chips, I've ran a few cracked cores. A few of them with broken off corners too. That's the silicon over the insulator. (SOI) pretty much the heat transfer and protection layer of the core.

Thanks but I don't mean the thermal paste is sticking it on - I mean I can't get the metal catch free of the plastic of the socket. It won't budge even slightly. I'll have to force it down with a screwdriver or something I think. Good to know that cracking it won't necessarily kill it though I had a Thermaltake Super Orb (think that was the name) back in the day on my XP 1700+ and managed to get it on without cracking the die. Was a stressful exercise though!

 

[Bones]

Some Socket A coolers with that style retaining mechanism are a pain that way and you had to use alot of force to remove one.
Makes me wonder sometimes about the guy/engineer designing these things back in the day. Some are good to work with, others are a total PITA either way (Install or Removal).

 

[CLXIV]

Some Socket A coolers with that style retaining mechanism are a pain that way and you had to use alot of force to remove one.
Makes me wonder sometimes about the guy/engineer designing these things back in the day. Some are good to work with, others are a total PITA either way (Install or Removal).

Haha yeah it's not exactly user-friendly! Well I finally removed it (combination of brute force downwards and jamming a ballpoint pen in the gap to push the clip outwards) and it seems I have acquired an Athlon XP 1800+, which I actually owned one of when I was younger. Still do own it in fact but that one won't run - it broke so me, my friend and my brother decided to fire it up without a heatsink on. Got smoke but no flames. Kept as a useless memento

This is a year or two newer than what I was after so I'll look around for some pre-XP Athlons and see what I turn up. So the shopping list now:

- Voodoo3 PCI
- Soundblaster AWE64 Gold
- 40GB Samsung IDE HDD
- QDI Kinetiz 7E-A socket A / VIA KT133A
- 256MB PC133 CL3
- some Coolermaster CPU cooler
- beige 14-17" CRT (hopefully a half-decent one!) my mum kept my brother's old silver 19" LG Flatron which will do for now
- beige IDE DVD-ROM he still had one of these too, a beige Sony 16x/40x
- 400-900MHz Athlon
- PSU (think I need 20A+ on 3.3v if that's what these Athlons run on?)
- beige horizontal ATX desktop case
- beige FDD
- PS/2 keyboard (think I'm correct in thinking USB keyboards and mice would not work in BIOS or DOS?)
- PS/2 mouse with thumb buttons (would love another Intellimouse Explorer but they're quite pricey now)
- old-style desktop speakers
- MS-DOS 6.22
- Windows 98 SE