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Lets talk Amd Vs Intel platform longevity

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#1
we had this talk at another forums, and it ended with me pointing out how many sockets intel has had vs amd in the same aprox time range.

figuared i would see what you all thought and if any of you had more info to add.

below in my quote without the quote boxes(so people can quote me properly and respond to each point as they see fit :) )



as to sockets
slot1
slot2
370 celeron
370copermine
370tulitin
423 orignal p4, dissapeared within 6 months you couldnt get chips for it.
478 400/533
478 533/800
479 dorthan
603
604
771
775prescot(or whatever first 775 chips where)
775pentium-d/dual core netburst
775 core2/conroe
775 1333fsb c2d/c2q
socket-m

thats 17, but i know i missed a few server side sockets but hey this is just prooving a point

amd
super7(added at request of the intel fanboi)
slotA (same as above)
A/462
754
939
940
am2
am2+
socketF
s1(754 with ddr2 support for laptops)

lets count
10 sockets
no versions of said sockets that force you to get a new board if you want a newer core/chip, hell socketA 100mhz buss still was able to get chips up to the end of the socketA days, i know i have a xp-m 2800 100mhz version in the other room in an amd irongate mobo(100mhz max fsb)

754 was used for desktops AND laptops and got quite a few cores
clawhammer
newcastle
Paris (orignal sempy chips)
venice e3
venice e6
plarmo e6
newark(4000+ 1mb cache)
Lancaster aka turion

939 has had
clawhammer c0
clawhammer cg
newcastle
winchester
venice e3
venice e6
san diago e4
san diago e6
tolido
manchester e4
manchester e6
denmark (thanks AthlonX2)
there may be a core i missed, but each of those name changes would from intel have requiered a new board/chipset to beable to upgrade, but amd you could just swap the chip out and bam you got newer faster chip/core with newer fetures.

i wont list 940 because its not a desktop/consumer level socket really.

am2 has like 4 cores i think currently
Manila sempy64
Orleans a64 1 core
windsor a64 x2
Santa Ana opteron
brisbanne 65nm a64 x2 (thanks PT)

but we have many more cores to come, 65nm, barcalona(k8l) and beyond

socketA i will list only because so many people still use it
this list may be missing cores if so please let us know

spitfire(duron)
tbird (athlon)
palimino(athlonxp)
tbred-a (axp)
tbred-b (axp/sempron)
throton (axp/sempron)
barton (axp)
applebread(duron)

im not sure but i think im missing some cores there, but also socketA was very backword compatable, versions with higher multi and lower fsb wherent hard to find for use in orignal socketA boards that couldnt do more then 100mhz fsb.
again each core change with intel requiers a new board/chipset to beable to upgrade your chip to that newer/faster/better core.

amd on the other hand leaves people who adopt a socket/board/platform a way to upgrade for years after that socket comes out, sure 939 only got a couple years, but it got ALOT of cores without need to buy a new board.

i would list intel core changes to socket forced upgrades but honestly, i dont keep track of intels core revisions anymore, sure core2duo/conroe is a nice chip, but i dont see a future upgrade path being there a year from now, am2 on the other hand has been ASSURED an upgrade path by AMD them selves!!!
 
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#2
I'm really liking the am2 sockety type amd's got (and i'm kicking myself for not waiting 6 months for an x2 am2 instead of getting an x2 939). AM2 is supposted to work with AM3 style chips too, isn't it? plus quad core, etc etc with just a firmware upgrade. I like how amd doesn't force you to buy a new mobo if you want to do a cpu upgrade.
 
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#3
am2 support am3 chips(when they eventuly move to am3) and yes quadcore is fully supported, just a bios flash(if that) and its up and running.

tho personaly i plan to look for a dual core version of the quadcore as they will clock better and be plenty for games(mhz at 2 core will be better then quad core at lower clocks, for gaming :D )
 
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#4
I like it too how you don't need a new motherboard for a new CPU. Intel has LGA 775, but so many Chipsets, like 915, 945, 955, 975 and P965 (there's more I'm sure). New Chipset for newer CPU's...that's the main thing I don't like.
 
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#5
chipsets in amd dont make much of a diffrance in real world perf, mainly because memory controlers on the cpu, and thus all the chipset is there for is to add devices and talk with added devices for the cpu, i would bet in the next 5years or so we see chipset on cpu ;)
 
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#6
Its probably a board whereby you would have to buy your a processor bundled with chipset. Meaning the motherboard has removable processor and chipset. If not its like what ashensugar said, a motherboard with no chipset but in the processor itself. Like future graphics card (i know i'm out of point), a PCB with removable GPU is possible. But the changing of the memory in GPU PCB that i'm not sure. Kinda shit to have e.g RD1000 (jus for fun) which supports up to DDR10 (Yes FOR FUN) running on DDR8 (ok ok calm down).
 

DanTheBanjoman

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#7
So you count Intel FSB change as a new socket but not AMDs FSB change? As I recall old AMD chipsets don't support newer procs either. Plus in the same timespan AMD has had Super socket 7 and Slot A as well. Currently AMD is adding Socket F as desktop socket.

Add to that that there is no Celeron socket 370, just PPGA, FCPGA and FCPGA2 which are backwards compatible plus on various chipsets a simple mod allowed support for newer CPUs. A slot1 board with a BX chipset could run a Tualatin. If you want to stick with official support AMD has the same issues.

Plus AMD doesn't allow you to upgrade from low to high end which Intel does, got a 754? Want to go high end? Buy a new 939 board. And soon buy a Socket F board.

I think your comparison is very inaccurate, add to that that you spelled nearly all corenames on the Intel side wrong which tells me that you're either dyslectic or have no experience with the Intel platforms.
 

DanTheBanjoman

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#8
Also, not to be a fanboy or anything, but various Intel platforms have socket converters to allow other CPUs. (slot1>370, 423>478, 478>479) When was the last time you could put a socket A CPU in socket 939?
I think both sides offer enough options to upgrade.
 
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#9
So you count Intel FSB change as a new socket but not AMDs FSB change?
no, i count the fact that you cant use the same chips in both, you cant take a 800 chip and use it in a 400/533 board intel never makes new chips for sockets they replace, once the new chip comes out, you gotta get a new board if you wana use it.

As I recall old AMD chipsets don't support newer procs either.
yes they do, socketA you could alwase get new chips with higher multiplyer insted of higher FSB speed, such as mobile chips with high multiplyer. also many older boards had bios flashes so they would properly recognize chips that the board didnt even officaly support, i got a 2700+ in a first gen gigabyte amd irongate socketA board in the my mothers buisness system, works great dispite using pc133)

Plus in the same timespan AMD has had Super socket 7 and Slot A as well. Currently AMD is adding Socket F as desktop socket.[//quote]
acctualy 370 only became common after socket7 was long dead, and socketA and 370 came into wide use around the same time, so yeah i guess i could add slotA in there.

[quoteAdd to that that there is no Celeron socket 370, just PPGA, FCPGA and FCPGA2 which are backwards compatible plus on various chipsets a simple mod allowed support for newer CPUs. A slot1 board with a BX chipset could run a Tualatin.
um no, you cant use a copper mind in a first gen socket370 board, this has been tryed, it dosnt work 99.9% of the time, and you could get moded chips/cards to run tulitins in slot1/socket370 boards, but intel didnt support this at all, infact they pushed a few companys to stop selling the adapters(because p4 was looking so bad compared to p3tu)

If you want to stick with official support AMD has the same issues.
like what? socketA bartons can be used on even old amd boards.

Plus AMD doesn't allow you to upgrade from low to high end which Intel does, got a 754? Want to go high end? Buy a new 939 board. And soon buy a Socket F board.
not quite, 754 you can get equivlant singel core chips, dual core, u need 939 or 940, but people who buy 754 KNEW what they where getting.
939 needed a reasion for people to buy it, dc ram support wasnt cutting it because the benches prooved that 754 could keep up with 939 dispite it having 2x the memory bandiwith, hence dual core never came to s754, but we did get venice cores(e3 and e6) as well as newark(mobile chip that seemed to work in pretty much any 754 board ppl tryed it in) it was rated at 4000+, higher then any 939 singel core of the day(think they put out a 4k+ 939 finnly)




I think your comparison is very inaccurate, add to that that you spelled nearly all corenames on the Intel side wrong which tells me that you're either dyslectic or have no experience with the Intel platforms.
yes i am dyslexic, and i dont give a shit about intel core revisions, other then the fact that every time they change cores you gotta buy a new board.

my ecs l7s7a2 lasted thru palimino,tbred-a,tbred-b, barton,and applebread, my fic au13 the same, my nf7-s(Abit) the same.
my gigabyte 760 chipset board, tbird,spifire,palimino,tbred-a,tbred-b, thorton,barton,applebread and is still kickin.

my 754 rids have laster thru
clawhammer 3700+
newcastle 3000+
Paris 2600+
plarmo e6 3400+
chips/cores last being the clawhamer amd upgraded me to when one of my 3000+ newcastles died.

never had 939, as i didnt need to upgrade, my newcastle easly hit 2.65gz and the clawhammer the same.(same core as the fx51)

my am2 rigs got orliens in it, it will be getting new cores that intel would require a new board to use.
65-nm Brisbane, pretty much just a shrunk ver of the current cores, should overclock very well.
Barcelona also called k8l, a quad core chip with alot of upgrades to list a few
Native Quad-core design
New L3 cache
128-bit wide SSE units
Improved memory addressing (Up to 48-bit memory addressing)
Better prefetching (Going from 16 bytes to 32)
New Extensions added to SSE3
and thats just a few of the changes made, this is the true answer to the conroe/core2duo/core2quatro question.

Also, not to be a fanboy or anything, but various Intel platforms have socket converters to allow other CPUs. (slot1>370, 423>478, 478>479) When was the last time you could put a socket A CPU in socket 939?
none of those upgrades are supported by intel, if you call them with problems about ur 423 chips not working with your 478board your sol, same with the other upgrades they are 3rdparty cheats to avoid intel forcing an upgrade.

also try getting a new 478 400/533 chip after they moved to 800 chips:) not easy, you can run them at lower speeds in most cases but you cant run them properly and you cant get a version made for your older board.

or try running a pentium-d in an orignal 775 board, or a core2 in any older 775 board, aint gonna happen unless u buy an un-fused chip.

amd never forced you to replace a paltform 6moths to a year after they put it out, please tell me what intel did with socket 423?, it lasted around 6 months, then you couldnt get new chips for it at all, couldnt even take a 1.4gz p4 to a 2.0gz p4 6months after the socket was put out, amd has NEVER done that EVER.

754, 2+years(still going tillt he end of the year)
939, 2+years(same as above)
940, 2+years(same as above)
am2, supports am3 chips, no forced platform upgrade if you want a new cpu but not a new board.

your point about socket7 would also requier me to put inels use of socket7 in since they kept putting out 233mmx chips till long after they moved to slot1.

Socket 370 is a common format of CPU socket first used by Intel for Pentium III and Celeron processors to replace the older Slot 1 CPU interface on personal computers. The "370" refers to the number of holes in the socket for CPU pins. Modern Socket 370 fittings are usually found on Mini-ITX motherboards and embedded systems.

Socket 370 was originally used for the Intel Celeron, but later became the socket/platform for the Coppermine and Tualatin Pentium III processors, as well as the Via-Cyrix Cyrix III, later renamed the VIA C3. Some motherboards that used Socket 370 support Intel processors in dual CPU configurations. Others allowed the use of a Socket 370 or Slot 1 CPU, although not at the same time.

This platform is not wholly obsolete, but its use is today limited to the above specialty applications, having been superseded by Socket 423/478/775 (for Pentium 4). Via are still producing Socket 370 processors, but are increasingly migrating their processor line to ball grid array packages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_370

Socket 423 is a CPU socket that was used for the first Pentium 4 processors based on the Willamette core. The socket was short-lived, as it became apparent that it had inadequate electrical design, which would have not allowed many clock speed rises above 2.0GHz. Intel produced chips using this socket for less than a year, from November 2000 to August 2001. It was replaced by Socket 478.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_423

for a little extended info.

im sure somebody here has or knows somebody who had 423 and couldnt upgrade.

and im sure somebody here has a 478 system thats 400/533 and isnt able to get a new "high end" chip for it because to get the highe end chips you need 533/800 board :)

and 775 chips arent backword compatable, try putting a pentium-d in a first gen 775 board, or core2 in pentium-d or orignal 775 board, it aint gonna work!!!!!!

now go find a decent older gen socket A board, update its bios, and stick in a barton XP or applebread duron, and watch the system post up and run.

take a first gen 754 board try a 3700+ ch chip in it, now upgrade its bios, try a newark chip in it, think you will be suprised to find that it works, its not dual core, but you dont need dual core to be "high end" in any but the latest generation of chips, and even then for gaming there is no need for dual core.

and converters dont count as "support" for older chips on newer sockets or newer chips on older sockets, thats like saying slotA supported socketA chips because 2 companys did make converters so you could run socketA chips in slotA boards, also come companys made upgrade chips that would run in sloatA boards.

hell another good annilgy is saying 486 boards support socket370 celeron because a company made a pci card that let you upgrade any system with a pci slot to a socket370 celeron
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/8774/evergreen/Accelera.html




http://www.shopping.com/xPO-Evergreen_Celeron_A_700_MHz_90_A700_AA1~r-1~CLT-INTR~RFR-www.google.com

as far as i remmber they had an amd/cyres version of this as well

that in your eyes means intel made upgrades for anything with a pci slot for years after they dumped socket7 for good.......(yes it will work in a 486 system i have done it on a couple old servers, even worked in a 386dx40+385+cyrex math unit server that had 1 pci slot(weird old hp server we HAD to upgrade because we couldnt replace it due to some apps on it being impossable to replace and the hdd being 4 900mb mfm drives(yes mfm thats pre scsi and pre ide) )

reality is intel dumps platform support like some people change underware.
 

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#10
Man, those things are very strange. I have a bunch of slockets and I have a bigger bunch of slot1-mobos, but it just don't work! :shadedshu

@P4: Well, that's just a sad story. At least in the early P4-days. :p
 

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#11
Also, not to be a fanboy or anything, but various Intel platforms have socket converters to allow other CPUs. (slot1>370, 423>478, 478>479) When was the last time you could put a socket A CPU in socket 939?
I think both sides offer enough options to upgrade.
But you can put a socket AM2 into a socket 939....does that count? That is of course the board manufactures choice not the chip makers but is that not often the case, many of the shortcomings you have both mentioned whether it be for AMD or Intel are in part due to Motherboard manufacturers unwillingness to fututeproof their motherboard product and therefore the CPU product. If a budget motherboard manufacturer like Asrock can add a "futureproof port" on their SATA2 series and then develop an adapter to allow the board to take AM2 why cant others do similar (although I appreciate to do that you have to know whats coming technology wise), is it the weakness of the CPU manufaturer or the board maker.
 
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DanTheBanjoman

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#12
no, i count the fact that you cant use the same chips in both, you cant take a 800 chip and use it in a 400/533 board intel never makes new chips for sockets they replace, once the new chip comes out, you gotta get a new board if you wana use it.
Actually, it will work at reduced FSB, just like your Athlon.

yes they do, socketA you could alwase get new chips with higher multiplyer insted of higher FSB speed, such as mobile chips with high multiplyer. also many older boards had bios flashes so they would properly recognize chips that the board didnt even officaly support, i got a 2700+ in a first gen gigabyte amd irongate socketA board in the my mothers buisness system, works great dispite using pc133)
Please get me a document by AMD where they claim to OFFICIALLY running the CPU out of specs.

um no, you cant use a copper mind in a first gen socket370 board, this has been tryed, it dosnt work 99.9% of the time, and you could get moded chips/cards to run tulitins in slot1/socket370 boards, but intel didnt support this at all, infact they pushed a few companys to stop selling the adapters(because p4 was looking so bad compared to p3tu)
These converters had nothing to do with the P3/P4 issue, the Tualatin simply kicked Willamette on any board. It's why they lowered the cache and removed SMP from the new chips. Only Tualatin512 supports SMP. However, you can run any older CPU in a newer board, which is what backwards compatible means for the socket. I never stated that the CPU is backwards compatible without mods.


like what? socketA bartons can be used on even old amd boards.
Yes, out of spec, unsupported, which is according to you negative.


not quite, 754 you can get equivlant singel core chips, dual core, u need 939 or 940, but people who buy 754 KNEW what they where getting.
939 needed a reasion for people to buy it, dc ram support wasnt cutting it because the benches prooved that 754 could keep up with 939 dispite it having 2x the memory bandiwith, hence dual core never came to s754, but we did get venice cores(e3 and e6) as well as newark(mobile chip that seemed to work in pretty much any 754 board ppl tryed it in) it was rated at 4000+, higher then any 939 singel core of the day(think they put out a 4k+ 939 finnly)
When you buy any Intel based board you KNOW what you're getting. It says so on the box. It doesn't claim to support next years CPU, and if it does claim so it will support it. So "knowing" what you're getting is a bit silly to use as an argument.

yes i am dyslexic, and i dont give a shit about intel core revisions, other then the fact that every time they change cores you gotta buy a new board.
If you don't give a shit, why do you start this thread? Sounds like a big flame in that context.


never had 939, as i didnt need to upgrade, my newcastle easly hit 2.65gz and the clawhammer the same.(same core as the fx51)
Officially supported?


my am2 rigs got orliens in it, it will be getting new cores that intel would require a new board to use.
65-nm Brisbane, pretty much just a shrunk ver of the current cores, should overclock very well.
Barcelona also called k8l, a quad core chip with alot of upgrades to list a few
Native Quad-core design
New L3 cache
128-bit wide SSE units
Improved memory addressing (Up to 48-bit memory addressing)
Better prefetching (Going from 16 bytes to 32)
New Extensions added to SSE3
and thats just a few of the changes made, this is the true answer to the conroe/core2duo/core2quatro question.
Luckily your AM2 also supports the new generation FX CPUs. Ah wait, you need socket F there. Then again, you knew what you were getting, so AMD is doing good there.
My current board already supports quad core CPUs btw. No new board required.


none of those upgrades are supported by intel, if you call them with problems about ur 423 chips not working with your 478board your sol, same with the other upgrades they are 3rdparty cheats to avoid intel forcing an upgrade.
Luckily I've just concluded that AMD and mobo makes support all your mentioned configurations.

also try getting a new 478 400/533 chip after they moved to 800 chips:) not easy, you can run them at lower speeds in most cases but you cant run them properly and you cant get a version made for your older board.
Besides Prescott 478 and various BIOS updates for tons of boards out there. Then again, like you said, if not all of the boards support next gen CPUs Intel is to blame.


or try running a pentium-d in an orignal 775 board, or a core2 in any older 775 board, aint gonna happen unless u buy an un-fused chip.
I have a i865 board with official Dual core support. In fact the newer revision even supports Conroe. All that using DDR+AGP. Apparantly it's not a chipset issue.


[/quote]
amd never forced you to replace a paltform 6moths to a year after they put it out, please tell me what intel did with socket 423?, it lasted around 6 months, then you couldnt get new chips for it at all, couldnt even take a 1.4gz p4 to a 2.0gz p4 6months after the socket was put out, amd has NEVER done that EVER.
Sure, 423 didn't last long. more than 6 months though. How long was SlotA available though? Not really a long lasting platform either.

754, 2+years(still going tillt he end of the year)
939, 2+years(same as above)
940, 2+years(same as above)
am2, supports am3 chips, no forced platform upgrade if you want a new cpu but not a new board.
So basically AMD uses different sockets for different CPUs at the same time. Isn't that just as bad? Currently Intel only has only two sockets on the market in those markets, 775 and 771.

your point about socket7 would also requier me to put inels use of socket7 in since they kept putting out 233mmx chips till long after they moved to slot1.
First of all I simply stated that AMD used super socket 7 while Intel started to use 370, your list starts at Socket A. I had no "point" besides that you were leaving 2 sockets out.

im sure somebody here has or knows somebody who had 423 and couldnt upgrade.
Poor soul, he should have gotten a SlotA board so he could upgrade to an Athlon Xp.

take a first gen 754 board try a 3700+ ch chip in it, now upgrade its bios, try a newark chip in it, think you will be suprised to find that it works, its not dual core, but you dont need dual core to be "high end" in any but the latest generation of chips, and even then for gaming there is no need for dual core.
So because you have no need for dual core it can't be used as argument? Like there is need for an 800MHz FSB for the average home user. Word runs fine on a P3/K6-2.



Basically you just hate Intel. That's ok, I don't mind.
 
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#13
But you can put a socket AM2 into a socket 939....does that count? That is of course the board manufactures choice not the chip makers but is that not often the case, many of the shortcomings you have both mentioned whether it be for AMD or Intel are in part due to Motherboard manufacturers unwillingness to fututeproof their motherboard product and therefore the CPU product. If a budget motherboard manufacturer like Asrock can add a "futureproof port" on their SATA2 series and then develop an adapter to allow the board to take AM2 why cant others do similar (although I appreciate to do that you have to know whats coming technology wise), is it the weakness of the CPU manufaturer or the board maker.
acctualy they also made 754 boards like that as well, glad u mentioned it, i had fogotten, the 754 board was sold as a way to upgrade to 939 but one review i saw said it would work with the am2 addin board as well :), now thats some longevity there,754,939,am2,am3(via am2) and possably even a true am3 cpu card :)

thats quite a long lived board, my buddys got that board, not bad for its price(was 53bucks like a year+ ago)

oh and its 3 754 boards that can do it

http://www.asrock.com/product/K8Upgrade-VM800.htm
via based(eww via)

http://www.asrock.com/product/K8Upgrade-NF3.htm
nforce3(nice)

http://www.asrock.com/product/K8Upgrade-1689.htm
uli 1689 based(very nice)

and dont for get the k7 seirse that allowed 754 upgrades
http://www.asrock.com/product/K7Upgrade-600.htm
and
http://www.asrock.com/product/K7Upgrade-880.htm

but again these arent dirrectly the work of the cpu maker, BUT due to amd's open platform design that allows ANYBODY to make parts/chipsets/exct for their chips these boards are possable.
oh the addin cpu support card for 754/939 boards
http://www.asrock.com/product/AM2CPU Board.htm
dosnt even have a chipset on it, because it dosnt need one ;)

http://www.asrock.com/product/index.htm#upgrade

please note that there are NO INTEL UPGRADE BOARDS, because intel dosnt want there to be, they want to sell chipsets/boards/cpus at the same time, so they dont want people to have the option to just replace the cpu with a new one using a small addin card......
 

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#14
So:
  • Upgrade boards only count for AMD.
  • The new CPU has to work in a first generation board, besides when AMD has an upgrade board.
  • New features should be supported by old boards, but not when "you don't need it", like dual core.

Might I ask why you start a discussion topic about an issue where your opinion is already set in stone?
 

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#15
So:
  • Upgrade boards only count for AMD.
  • The new CPU has to work in a first generation board, besides when AMD has an upgrade board.
  • New features should be supported by old boards, but not when "you don't need it", like dual core.

Might I ask why you start a discussion topic about an issue where your opinion is already set in stone?

"Might I ask why you start a discussion topic about an issue where your opinion is already set in stone?"

To be honest ignoring the argument of "who is right or wrong" here, thats a very fair point, it would appear that the origional post and therefore thread was made purely to irritate and not gain thought or idea's, I only say that (not intending to point the finger) because as soon as someone, in this case Dan disagreed it starts to become a little hostile. my opinion only of course, I am not becoming involved in ANY Intel v AMD discussions as it just plain hurts too much. I have used both in varying guises and enjoyed them all. My most recent aqquisitions have been AMD but I do recall owning some time ago a P2 that only required a BIOS flash on a BX motherboard for me to fit a P3 when they first came out and I did, I went from a P2 300 to a P3 400, just put that in to even up my comments in my 2 posts :D
 
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#16
Please get me a document by AMD where they claim to OFFICIALLY running the CPU out of specs.
amd has stated that they support using mobile cpus in older first gen socketA laptops, and that they "may work at reduced speed", you can get them with higher multiplyer that give same speeds OFFICALY as upgrades to older platforms.
amd never uses the same socket and makes a chip incompable with it.


These converters had nothing to do with the P3/P4 issue, the Tualatin simply kicked Willamette on any board. It's why they lowered the cache and removed SMP from the new chips. Only Tualatin512 supports SMP. However, you can run any older CPU in a newer board, which is what backwards compatible means for the socket. I never stated that the CPU is backwards compatible without mods.
yes intel did infact push companys to stop selling the converters to use TU chips in Coppermine boards, and Yes it was because TU was STOMPING THE SHIT OUT OF P4.



Yes, out of spec, unsupported, which is according to you negative.
you can get barton mobil chips with high default multi or unlocked multi and use them in an older board, amd has stated in the past that socketA chips are all backword compatable with older boards/chipsets and that "they may work at reduced frequincys"
this means they are supported, tho not at the "rated speed"



When you buy any Intel based board you KNOW what you're getting. It says so on the box. It doesn't claim to support next years CPU, and if it does claim so it will support it. So "knowing" what you're getting is a bit silly to use as an argument.
well true if you been around enought to see how intel swaps out sockets or socket SPECS then you been around long enought to know that your SOL as soon as a new core comes out and will need a new board to properly support it or use it at all in the case of core2.

but many non-guru's dont realise this, i know at least 8 people who self build 423 systems with 1.4gz chips because they where under the impression that intel would support the socket for more then the 6months it was acctualy avalable(boards came late and chips leaft early hence 6 months effective life span)



If you don't give a shit, why do you start this thread? Sounds like a big flame in that context.
i mean i dont care what the names are, i stoped tracking that long ago, with intel systems i upgrade if i can, most times this isnt easly done, but if i can i get them a better chip/ram, if not, most of them go sempy64 on the cheap with the ability to go full athlon anywhere down the road.



Officially supported?
no cpu maker officaly supports overclocking with anything but their extream lines, suck as fx or extream edition, as you know, but they amd did point out that the 3700+ shares the exect same core as the fx51, so they unofficialy-officaly support it i guess you could say.
newcastle they didnt promote overclocking with ofcorse, no fx's based off it ;)


Luckily your AM2 also supports the new generation FX CPUs. Ah wait, you need socket F there. Then again, you knew what you were getting, so AMD is doing good there.
My current board already supports quad core CPUs btw. No new board required.
how about mid next year? you gonna have to get a new board then for the new chips they bring out then?, or how about a year from now? 2 years from now?, oh thats right, intel socket specs dont last that long :(

and honestly unlike intel heads most amd users dont obsess over the fx line, most of us couldnt care less about FX chips, its only intel fanboi's that obsess and foam at the mouth over athlon FX chips, get over it already.



Besides Prescott 478 and various BIOS updates for tons of boards out there. Then again, like you said, if not all of the boards support next gen CPUs Intel is to blame.
intel dosnt tell its partners what its gonna do next till its about to do it, so yes, thats why u saw VERY FEW conroe/core2 compatable boards when core2 came out, nobody knew what was up, intel didnt have to make this change, all core2 chips are SOFTWARE FUSED to only work in supported bords, this isnt a hardware limitation, its dont simply so intel can sell more boards and chipsets.


I have a i865 board with official Dual core support. In fact the newer revision even supports Conroe. All that using DDR+AGP. Apparantly it's not a chipset issue.
so, its not that the chipsets dont support it, its that intel wants to sell more chipsets, Oh and glad you could make that clear, good job admiting your favorite cpu maker is forcing people to buy new boards or new revisions of boards just to support a chip that should/could work in the board they already have, i truely am glad you admit that.


Sure, 423 didn't last long. more than 6 months though. How long was SlotA available though? Not really a long lasting platform either.
as i remmber it had close to 2 years b4 they dumped it fully, even then amd did put out tbirds for socketA between 700mhz and 1.4gz,(the whole range of tbird chips)

So basically AMD uses different sockets for different CPUs at the same time. Isn't that just as bad? Currently Intel only has only two sockets on the market in those markets, 775 and 771.
its more honest then selling 775 boards that arent compatable with new chips, making people who already payed good$ buy a new board just because intel wants to sell more boards/chipsets, you already admited intel forced upgrade, its a known fact that core2 chips are able to be used in any dual core capable 775board but are software fused to only work in newer boards, again intel wants to sell more chipsets and boards, i never said NEW chipsets, i said MORE chipsets, the dont care if its 8xx chipsets or 9xx chipsets of whatever,they just want to sell more and they will use dirty tricks to do it.


First of all I simply stated that AMD used super socket 7 while Intel started to use 370, your list starts at Socket A. I had no "point" besides that you were leaving 2 sockets out.
ok, add 2 if you really feel that socket7 is valid or take off the early 370 with removal of rev1 370 you got 12 socket changes that arent backword compatable(newer chips dont work in older boards or at least not properly.)

So because you have no need for dual core it can't be used as argument? Like there is need for an 800MHz FSB for the average home user. Word runs fine on a P3/K6-2.
amd never implyed there would be dual core for 754, they never made a dual core chip that used a 754 pin socket but wouldnt work in a socket754 bord just because it wasnt NEW. corse they aren intel they didnt have everything to gain by forcing people to buy newboards with their chipsets on them.



Basically you just hate Intel. That's ok, I don't mind.
no i hate how intel does buisness, they FORCE un-nessery upgrades on people using tricks and slight of hand or outright lies by ommition.

what do you call software fusing cpu's to not run on pre core2 relice 775 boards?

proof can be found on ebay, buy an engeneering sample core2 chip, the latest ones made are just retail chips without the softlock to keep them from working in older boards.

and amd fsb changes never came without chips OFFICALY RATED for the lower fsb with higher multi being avalable for a goodly while after.

board makers will support use of newer cores and reduced speed on older boards for the most part, not all of them, but most i have delt with will just tell you"its not gonna work at rated speed but it will work" thats that epox,gigabyte,apoen,soltek,and even ecs told me.
infact the only ones who said it wouldnt work was abit, and it was because of a design flaw in their board(also caused problems with last rev tbirds rated at 1.4gz)


i live neer intel, and see how they treat their employs, i visit intel and a few friends who work their at least once a year each normaly spending the whole day at intel with them, they are VERY arrogant, even their reps who promote the stuff are snotty and will say that they feel a true enthusist is more then happy to change out his system a couple times a year.

on the other hand i see amd reps maby 2x a year, they are alwase hummble, and alwase friendly, and also like to use phrases like "we like to see our costmers get the most value out of their computing doller" when asked what they mean they normaly say they like to see people being able to buy one platform and have it last a couple years b4 it needs a cpu upgrade and even longer befor you need a board upgrade.

its a diffrane in culture and attatude, amd reps have also been known to carry around goodies to give out to people, like oem or even retail cpus and those cute little amd bunny suit dolls.

intel reps have given me 2 things in the 5+years i been visiting them at intel, i got a small intel shirt(im a big guy so that was useless to me) and an intel sticker pack.

no i dont diss their products, and infact i have said i would be willing even intrested in trying out something intel in a system i built, they just smile and say that i should get an extream edition cpu and this or that intel board and this or that ram/video card/exct.

totaly diffrent attatudes as companys, one treats people like....well treats us like valued costmers, the other like nothing more then a source of revenu.


oh and lets talk RMA policy and hassles.

amd, send in a cpu, get a cpu back, if its a lower rated cpu, most times u get at least a small step up, rma's i ahve done with amd and result
1900+ palimino that just died, rma, 1 week after shiping it usps i got a call, they didnt have any paliminos left and offered me a tbred-a 2200+ retail pack with full warr in exchange(great deal)

2500+ tbred-b died, amd replaced it with a 2700+ tbred-b without even calling.

2500+ barton, died of heat due to retail an stoping from dust, 3200 chip arived 1.5 weeks after shiping usps.

3 apple bred durons died, due to heat thanks to retail fans cloging with dust(same company as the above chip, very dusty place, comps at the time where stored on the floor)
replaced with 3200+ chips because at the time amd was out of durons.

2800+ athlon64 newcastle, replaced with a 3200+ new castle, chip died when the board caps fryed, replacment chip was full retail pack and had a full 3 year warr.
this was a friends system with a CRAPPY asus matx board, the caps acctuly spewed black stuff then smokes and a couple exploded.......

my backup system chip, a 3000+ s754 newcastle that had alwase been a little querky croked one day(just stoped working) hadnt ever been overclocked or anything (board it was in wasnt overclock friendly it was a server class board) sent chip to amd, 1 week and 2 days later *ding dong* its the fed ex guy, omfg, its a 3700+ clawhammer(1mb cache, same core as the fx51), yes i was stoked.


now my exp with intel returnes.

1.4gz p4 retail chip(423) less then 1 year old, just stoped working one day, rmad the chip, no word for 2 weeks, called them, 45min being put on and off hold and transfered around b4 they tell me they dont have any 1.4gz 423 chips in stock and they may not get any more for some time if ever, the say that it may be a while befor they can send a new chip, i ask politly if they got a 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0 chip avalable, yes they had 1.8 and 2.0 chips but i had rma'd a 1.4.......so i finnly gave up after another 20min with the manager seein i wouldnt get anywhere at that rate.

a week later i called back this time i was not gonna take no for an answer, finnly got the same guy on the phone, he said that it looked like no more 1.4's would become avalable but he was trying to find us one, i finnly went a little postal/apeshit on his ass and thretened him with a call from a lawer(bluff) and he said he would send out a chip asap, 2 weeks later(tryed to call but was stuck on hold and left there every time) a chip arrives, a 1.6, not a retail chip like i sent back, this one was OEM and had no heatsink, the costmer was VERY sick of not having his pc back so i had to shell out 35bucks to get a cooler for it(out of my pocket mind you not the costmers).

2.4c p4 dead not sure why, costmer had payed a hefty price to buy the system decked out with intels reccomended parts.
got an rma, sent it over night usps, same kind hassle, they didnt have ANY 2.4's in and didnt know when they would be getting any, this time i knew what to do, 2 weeks later a chip arrives, a 2.4, but an older revision, costmer was pissed at me, then intel, ended up calling them himself, they said that they didnt have to send the same revision back as they recived just the same speed.and hung up on him, again the chip came OEM but this time i had the 3rd party cooler that the costmer had ordered witht he system(retail had been in the box i sent back)

and the worst one, my best buddy from school and DnD and everything else had build a "beast box"
3.4EE, 2gb ram, SLI 6800gt's, quad raptor raid the works

the board blew taking out EVERY PART IN THE BOX, it was an intel top of the line 350$ board, intel gave us the runaround for 4 weeks, finnly saying they wouldnt replace anything but the board and chip because they didnt feel it was their fault the board blew taking out his 1280$ video card system, and $800+ hdd config, well he was lucky endough that xfx took the cards back no question and wd replaced the dirves, the ram he had to rma to the store because corsair aasked to many questions, luckly he got the extended store replacment policy and they shiped the replacments to him over night.

but in the end he had to buy a new board/chip because intel took 8 weeks to get him his replacments, and then they didnt even send the right stuff the board was one model down and the cpu was a 3.4normal, he had to acctualy conntact a lawer and have them call intel to get the proper parts, intel made him ship the ones they tryed to screw him with back befor they sent the proper ones, again dispite getting a retail chip in rma they only sent the cpu back, luckly he had water cooling so it didnt matter much.

but in that time he replaced the board/chip with an athlon64 setup and the p4ee became his video recording/encoding/converting box.


so maby now you understand why i disslike how intel does buisness, how would you like to send in a say x6800retail with cooler and get a e6600 OEM back?, i bet you wold be pretty pissed :)

if intel starts to show they care about the costmers and value then then i will start to consider them as a good choice again as i did in the p3 days, but from my current experiance they couldnt care less.

and upgrade boards arent hacks to let older chips work on newer boards or newer chips sorta work on older boards, they add REAL CPU SUPPORT, you clearly cant see the diffrance, but with intels design it would be far harder to do the "upgrade board" due to everything being so closed and restricted and also everything being chipset based(chipset memory controlers suck)

if i missed some posts i will reply as time permits
 
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#17
"Might I ask why you start a discussion topic about an issue where your opinion is already set in stone?"

To be honest ignoring the argument of "who is right or wrong" here, thats a very fair point, it would appear that the origional post and therefore thread was made purely to irritate and not gain thought or idea's, I only say that (not intending to point the finger) because as soon as someone, in this case Dan disagreed it starts to become a little hostile. my opinion only of course, I am not becoming involved in ANY Intel v AMD discussions as it just plain hurts too much. I have used both in varying guises and enjoyed them all. My most recent aqquisitions have been AMD but I do recall owning some time ago a P2 that only required a BIOS flash on a BX motherboard for me to fit a P3 when they first came out and I did, I went from a P2 300 to a P3 400, just put that in to even up my comments in my 2 posts :D
i take how he states things as being hostile, if my tone is such that is why, its not ment as an attack, just a reciprication of his attatude, i get that kinda arrogance from intel reps alot as well as the assastant pastor at my mothers church, hes a dell/intel fanboy to, use to work for them till they fired him.

and nobody asked what i think if intel based laptops, personaly pentium-m and coreduo are great, if a little over priced compared to the turion versions by the same companys, core2 ofcorse is still new so its prices are still inflated, but they are nice units if you dont take price into account.

diffrent platforms tho, not many people bother upgrading lappy cpus or expect to ever beable to upgrade them for that matter :p
 
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#18
So:
  • Upgrade boards only count for AMD.
  • The new CPU has to work in a first generation board, besides when AMD has an upgrade board.
  • New features should be supported by old boards, but not when "you don't need it", like dual core.

Might I ask why you start a discussion topic about an issue where your opinion is already set in stone?
intel dosnt have upgrade boards for current mobos they dont support their board makers doing such, hence nobodys done it.

upgrade board effectivly turns the "old board" into a "new board" by adding what in most cases is a 20-25$ part intel dosnt allow/condone this.

754 could support dual core, but if you got 754 or 939 when they where new you wherent looking at dual core, you wanted 64bit, dual core was a long way out.

your talking diffrent things here, dual core amd workd in boards that came out long b4 the chips hit the market, intel, well new board for new(hack) dual core.

intel could gain alot of respect from me by acctualy designing a good product then sticking with supporting it and its platform.
core2 is a nice fast chip, but the design is flawed in a few ways, largest to me being that the 2 cores must use the FSB to talk, the fsb on intel also deal with device IO and memory io, hence its starting to get a little flooded, this is hack dual core.

amd dual core communicate dirrectlyvia internal HT link, this is far smarter and a true dual core design, i understand that intel couldnt do this because they dont suport hyper transport or anything like it, they still use antiquated FrontSideBuss designs and Chipset based memory controlers insted.

that said, if intels support gets better it will go a long way to makeing me far less resentfull of dealing with intel stuff, oh it would help if they eraced nutburst from history to :p
 
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#19
updated the list, added super 7 and slotA as well as slot1, had to add slot1 because you wanted slotA and super7 added so its not 8(amd) to 14(intel)

intel still dosnt make chips for lower rated versions of the same socket once the newer revision is out, amd did with socketA, no need with 754/939/940/am2 since amd dosnt alter their specs and keep the socket name/number the same :O
but they do make newer chips for aging sockets :O
 

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#20
no, i count the fact that you cant use the same chips in both, you cant take a 800 chip and use it in a 400/533 board intel never makes new chips for sockets they replace, once the new chip comes out, you gotta get a new board if you wana use it.


yes they do, socketA you could alwase get new chips with higher multiplyer insted of higher FSB speed, such as mobile chips with high multiplyer. also many older boards had bios flashes so they would properly recognize chips that the board didnt even officaly support, i got a 2700+ in a first gen gigabyte amd irongate socketA board in the my mothers buisness system, works great dispite using pc133)


um no, you cant use a copper mind in a first gen socket370 board, this has been tryed, it dosnt work 99.9% of the time, and you could get moded chips/cards to run tulitins in slot1/socket370 boards, but intel didnt support this at all, infact they pushed a few companys to stop selling the adapters(because p4 was looking so bad compared to p3tu)


like what? socketA bartons can be used on even old amd boards.


not quite, 754 you can get equivlant singel core chips, dual core, u need 939 or 940, but people who buy 754 KNEW what they where getting.
939 needed a reasion for people to buy it, dc ram support wasnt cutting it because the benches prooved that 754 could keep up with 939 dispite it having 2x the memory bandiwith, hence dual core never came to s754, but we did get venice cores(e3 and e6) as well as newark(mobile chip that seemed to work in pretty much any 754 board ppl tryed it in) it was rated at 4000+, higher then any 939 singel core of the day(think they put out a 4k+ 939 finnly)





yes i am dyslexic, and i dont give a shit about intel core revisions, other then the fact that every time they change cores you gotta buy a new board.

my ecs l7s7a2 lasted thru palimino,tbred-a,tbred-b, barton,and applebread, my fic au13 the same, my nf7-s(Abit) the same.
my gigabyte 760 chipset board, tbird,spifire,palimino,tbred-a,tbred-b, thorton,barton,applebread and is still kickin.

my 754 rids have laster thru
clawhammer 3700+
newcastle 3000+
Paris 2600+
plarmo e6 3400+
chips/cores last being the clawhamer amd upgraded me to when one of my 3000+ newcastles died.

never had 939, as i didnt need to upgrade, my newcastle easly hit 2.65gz and the clawhammer the same.(same core as the fx51)

my am2 rigs got orliens in it, it will be getting new cores that intel would require a new board to use.
65-nm Brisbane, pretty much just a shrunk ver of the current cores, should overclock very well.
Barcelona also called k8l, a quad core chip with alot of upgrades to list a few
Native Quad-core design
New L3 cache
128-bit wide SSE units
Improved memory addressing (Up to 48-bit memory addressing)
Better prefetching (Going from 16 bytes to 32)
New Extensions added to SSE3
and thats just a few of the changes made, this is the true answer to the conroe/core2duo/core2quatro question.


none of those upgrades are supported by intel, if you call them with problems about ur 423 chips not working with your 478board your sol, same with the other upgrades they are 3rdparty cheats to avoid intel forcing an upgrade.

also try getting a new 478 400/533 chip after they moved to 800 chips:) not easy, you can run them at lower speeds in most cases but you cant run them properly and you cant get a version made for your older board.

or try running a pentium-d in an orignal 775 board, or a core2 in any older 775 board, aint gonna happen unless u buy an un-fused chip.

amd never forced you to replace a paltform 6moths to a year after they put it out, please tell me what intel did with socket 423?, it lasted around 6 months, then you couldnt get new chips for it at all, couldnt even take a 1.4gz p4 to a 2.0gz p4 6months after the socket was put out, amd has NEVER done that EVER.

754, 2+years(still going tillt he end of the year)
939, 2+years(same as above)
940, 2+years(same as above)
am2, supports am3 chips, no forced platform upgrade if you want a new cpu but not a new board.

your point about socket7 would also requier me to put inels use of socket7 in since they kept putting out 233mmx chips till long after they moved to slot1.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_370


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_423

for a little extended info.

im sure somebody here has or knows somebody who had 423 and couldnt upgrade.

and im sure somebody here has a 478 system thats 400/533 and isnt able to get a new "high end" chip for it because to get the highe end chips you need 533/800 board :)

and 775 chips arent backword compatable, try putting a pentium-d in a first gen 775 board, or core2 in pentium-d or orignal 775 board, it aint gonna work!!!!!!

now go find a decent older gen socket A board, update its bios, and stick in a barton XP or applebread duron, and watch the system post up and run.

take a first gen 754 board try a 3700+ ch chip in it, now upgrade its bios, try a newark chip in it, think you will be suprised to find that it works, its not dual core, but you dont need dual core to be "high end" in any but the latest generation of chips, and even then for gaming there is no need for dual core.

and converters dont count as "support" for older chips on newer sockets or newer chips on older sockets, thats like saying slotA supported socketA chips because 2 companys did make converters so you could run socketA chips in slotA boards, also come companys made upgrade chips that would run in sloatA boards.

hell another good annilgy is saying 486 boards support socket370 celeron because a company made a pci card that let you upgrade any system with a pci slot to a socket370 celeron
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/8774/evergreen/Accelera.html




http://www.shopping.com/xPO-Evergreen_Celeron_A_700_MHz_90_A700_AA1~r-1~CLT-INTR~RFR-www.google.com

as far as i remmber they had an amd/cyres version of this as well

that in your eyes means intel made upgrades for anything with a pci slot for years after they dumped socket7 for good.......(yes it will work in a 486 system i have done it on a couple old servers, even worked in a 386dx40+385+cyrex math unit server that had 1 pci slot(weird old hp server we HAD to upgrade because we couldnt replace it due to some apps on it being impossable to replace and the hdd being 4 900mb mfm drives(yes mfm thats pre scsi and pre ide) )

reality is intel dumps platform support like some people change underware.
owned :D

on a serious note, well detailed.
 
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#21
AMD all the waaaaaaay!
 
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#22
owned :D

on a serious note, well detailed.
thx, people sometimes are known to say im wrighting books not posts, but in this cases i think it was needed.

and i went into as much detail as possable, dispite it taking alot of extra time to get sorces or stuff like that pci cpu card(the companys long since died out)

i would kinda like to see somebody creat a card with an exrta cpu on it, not to take over for the main one, or to smp with the main one, but designed to allow the cpu to offload some tasks such as phsycs or whatnot onto an upgradeable cpu, would be intresting to see imho.

and as i said, i dont hate intels newer chips, anything p6 based is decent/good(pentium pro is the p6) nutburst on the other hand is total crap and should never have happened.

and intels support is still quite painfull for some from what a local shop owner told me this morning, hes bee waiting 6 weeks for a replacmet chip for an e6300 sysete because they are out of them at support, and they are not willing to send him an e6400 or 6600 because thats not what he sent back dispite them having had them both in stock and shipable when hes asked.

meh, maby intel will learn when us OEM's(we build for people so yes we are technicly small oems ourselves) stop selling intel stuff because its so hard to get service on.
 

Polaris573

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#23

b1lk1

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#24
Sure, AMD says no new mobo for future CPU's, but the S939 was also not supposed to die so quickly as well. I wouldn't hold my breath that AM2 will last much if at all into K8L.
 
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#25
I'm not really commenting about socket life, more from personal experience. I'm typing this from a 6 year old P3 Coppermine, and my A64 has been through quite a lot (dead motherboards, light overclocking, cooked power supply) and it keeps working as good as the day I got it :). In short, both proccie companies know that they have to be very competitive, or else they're bankrupt. Which keeps me very happy.