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Matisse (Ryzen 3000) overclocking/undervolting

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The truth is, to be worth overclocking in ryzen you need to hit that famous silicon lottery, that means, you will need to hit the precision boost clock with less than 1.35v. For the 3700x is 4.4ghz, can your chip do it? if yes, do it, if not, leave it at default, my point is, setting 1.25 for 4.2ghz or even 1.35 for 4.3ghz will not give you more performance efficiency than default clocks. Remember you need to hit that precision boost clock to be worth.

I'm still deciding if i will buy these ryzen cpus but if i do, first thing i will do is check how much voltage i will need to hit that precision boost clock, if 3700x, then, if i need more than 1.4v for 4.4ghz then i will leave at default clocks.
I'd recommend waiting for the next model as I'd imagine the voltage and temperatures will be much better and 4000 series will probably be in 2020 which is not too far off. Depends on what you are running now of course. If its a really old quad core or an FX8350 then I'd be really tempted to buy 3000 series today.
 
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@Metroid you seem to not understand how these things work... and what is that "4.4 boost clock"
There is no "Default" or "Stock" clock on 3000 series !
Not even a base, OR a max... both are kind of meaningless.

The CPU clocks lower than the "base" in idle (22x, or 2200Mhz seems to be minimum idle), and higher than the base in load (even full load on all 16 cores, it clocks at anywhere between 3800 and 4200... and that's fluctuating continuously)

The 4.4 boost is also "just a number", as it can can be changed with PBO+AutoOC to up to 4.6 (+200).
But... does it actually get there ? No. Not on boxed cooler anyway.
I've seen it at 4.5 for extremely short periods of time (one tick of measurement), but never higher. And that was at 1.45v and only in single threaded.

I'm sure I will see it A LOT MORE at 4.5 or even hit that magical 4.6 in tiny blips after I mount a beefy high-end AIO water cooler on it (thinking of a 280mm) and it's winter time...
Because right now the Ryzen 3700X performance seems to vary with the time of the day... it's faster in the morning when room temp (ambient) is lower.
(I have no AC, so can't lock that temp in place)

------
Anyway, just re-pasted with Kryonaut, and while idle temps have dropped 5-6 degrees, the load ones are very similar with previous tests at the same hour (it's 23:00 and very, very hot in my room (30-ish celsius), and nothing I can do about it. It's just hot.
 
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I'd recommend waiting for the next model as I'd imagine the voltage and temperatures will be much better and 4000 series will probably be in 2020 which is not too far off. Depends on what you are running now of course. If its a really old quad core or an FX8350 then I'd be really tempted to buy 3000 series today.
AMD made a control freak feature and put inside ryzen 3xxx, they gave the ability to overclock but is just not worth the squeeze hehe unless you hit the lottery hehe

Yeah, I would wait for a new ryzen series. For me for now will be the 3700x or the 9700k. I still have to decide. Good thing ryzen 3xxx series came, 9700k might have a price cut.

@Metroid you seem to not understand how these things work... and what is that "4.4 boost clock"
There is no "Default" clock on 3000 series !
Not even a base, OR a max... because both are kind of meaningless.

The CPU clocks lower than the "base" in idle (22x, or 2200Mhz seems to be minimum idle), and higher than the base in load (even full load on all 16 cores, it clocks at anywhere between 3800 and 4200... and that's fluctuating continuously)

The 4.4 boost is also "just a number", as it can can be changed with PBO+AutoOC to up to 4.6 (+200).
But... does it actually get there ? No. Not on boxed cooler anyway.
I've seen it at 4.5 for extremely short periods of time (one tick of measurement), but never higher. And that was at 1.45.

I'm sure I will see it A LOT MORE at 4.5 or even hit that magical 4.6 in tiny blips after I mount a beefy high-end AIO water cooler on it (thinking of a 280mm) and it's winter time...
Because right now the Ryzen 3700X performance seems to vary with the time of the day... it's faster in the morning when room temp (ambient) is lower.
(I have no AC, so can't lock that temp in place)

------
Anyway, just re-pasted with Kryonaut, and while idle temps have dropped 5-6 degrees, the load ones are very similar with previous tests at the same hour (it's 23:00 and very, very hot in my room (30-ish celsius), and nothing I can do about it. It's just hot.

The default clock I said is stock and you put it quite well how stock works, frequency goes up and down, "fluctuating continuously", now you saying "you seem to not understand how these things work... and what is that "4.4 boost clock"", Oh I do and i dont need to have one, i have seen probably 50 or more reviews, probably 10 or more in depth reviews to come to understand how these cpus work.

"4.4 boost clock" = precision boost clock. Now if it will hit or not, that depends on many things. Also forget pbo, autooc, all that is not worth anything, all stupid features amd just created for actually nothing at all.

If you can't make your cpu with a fixed precision boost clock with 1.4v or less then leave at default clocks = stock.

I have a humble request, can you test your cpu if it can achieve 4.4ghz with less than 1.4v, run a single thread cinebench test and see if that 4.4ghz will be kept? This would be very helpful. I would be very happy if you could do that, for science.
 
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Funny thing here is my chip doesn't do that, fluctuate that is.
I will say I do set things in the BIOS for manual and that's probrably why it doesn't.

Where I set it's speed to be is where it is everytime, no noteable fluctuation of speed seen in CPU-Z with the program running on the desktop and doesn't matter if it's at idle or under load. Been benching it for the last few days and not once has it changed from where it was set to run at in MHz aside from the normal slight fluctuations you'd expect to see anyway, usually about .5 to maybe 2MHz at the very most.
Also this chip, according to how things are setup in the BIOS can run 4.4 with less than 1.40v's set for it.
BTW this board is the Phantom Gaming X.

I have to admit it's largely the board itself along with the settings I've been using that has to be the cause of it, other boards may or may not do the same based on how they are setup to be - Since I only have this one to mess around with I can't do any comparisons with other board makes and models so.....

All I can do here is to say what I've seen from this one and also state this is just one example, being the lone example doesn't make it so for all the rest.
 
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@Metroid
You continue to show that you don't know what you're talking about, even with the 50+ reviews that you have read.

First of all, PB is not some fixed table ... If this volt and this temp than that frequency.
No, far from it.
The clock depends on so many things it's just mind-boggling:
- Temperature at any given moment
- Incoming core voltage (which is not fixed btw, what is set in bios is just a "hint". It still varies around that value quite a lot !)
- Any power limits (watts, amps) that are being reached
- What parts of the instruction set is being run (AVX loads seem to clock a lot lower than Integer for example)
- Freekin' MEMORY efficiency ... I've changed memory to lower/higher and noticed the boost behavior has changed slightly (my guess waiting for the memory makes the PB logic attempt to save CPU power as well by lowering clocks)
- The actual instructions that are being executed !!

Btw, I've watched many of those reviews as well and saw a LOT of inconsistency.
After buying mine, started to understand why:
TESTING CONDITIONS AFFECT PERFORMANCE (sometimes significantly !)

This is completely different than typical Intel CPU, which basically runs at the exact same performance no matter what. You set 4.9 Ghz, it sticks at 4.9 Ghz and done. It only gets slower when throttling for reaching TJunction.

To answer the humble request:
No, and Yes, and "Depends"

Running single core loads varied from ~4.2 all the way to 4.4 (with everything "default"), and if I added +100 to PBO limits, even 4.45 sustained for short periods of time.
- SuperPI hit 4.4 often
- Cinebench didn't (tops at 4.3, 4.325)
- Old Cinebench R10 (Motorcycle) hit 4.4 for very short times
- Tried some old 3DMark 2003, 2005 and other tests (which are limited to single threaded), seen 4.25, 4.35... 4.4 even, depending on which part of the test it was in. (With repeatable results)

Whatever AMD did, it's very complex and can't be measured by simply "Hitting RUN" and be done with it. That is the old way.
The new way is "per application maximum performance extraction"

How to make these go as fast as they can:
- Get the CPU as cool as possibly can and afford, because it will clock higher at lower temps (not by much but observable in benchmarks)
- Use under-volting in very tiny steps to find the sweet spot for your particular CPU/Motherboard/Case/Ambient, because sometimes it can get faster with lower voltage (up to a point). If the voltage gets a teeny-bitsy too low, it starts to cut off from the higher boost levels, probably to maintain stability ... somehow the CPU knows how much can it go before falling off the edge
- Use fast RAM with tight timings 3200-CL14 or 3600-CL16, because this CPU LOVES getting fed with data quickly !
- Use BPO+AutoOC (+100 to +200) if having high-end cooling and a good mobo with very stable voltages, because it DOES clock higher, it's not a fantasy, but it's not like with Intel... simply goes higher and crashes if unstable). No, Zen 2 doesn't seem to crash. Instead, it simply runs a tiny bit slower to maintain stability.

---
@Bones - Saw your post

You set everything manual, that's why, and cancelling PB.
But by doing that, you made the CPU very inefficient, running higher voltage than needed for various tasks, and consuming a lot more power.
 
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I have to disagree to a point - While it may seem normal to see temps reaching 80c I don't really believe 80c is an acceptable norm/standard.
I'd get something better than stock cooling for sure to use.
Arent these chips good to 100c now? Lower is always better and it can be better with that cooler, but 80C is nothing for these chips... this isnt old amd silicon where temp limits were lower.
 
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Arent these chips good to 100c now? Lower is always better and.lerhals it can be better with that cooler, but 80C is nothing for these chips... this isnt old amd silicon where temp limits were lower.
I hate to say, but with board like that, the VRM will hit the bucket sooner. Either way even W1z during testing saw that it if VRM overheats it will throttle, with cooling like that you can put a jet engine it won't help as the surface area isn't enough vs the heat released from the mosfets.
 
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I believe they are, they certainly tolerate temps much better than the older ones do.

I've always been particular about operating temps - That's just me I'll admit but again, heat is the bane of electronics period. I prefer to make things as comfortable as possible for my stuff and if I can shave off a few c's worth of heat that's good.
All I was really saying about it is if you don't have to let it run that hot, then don't - The chip will have an easier time doing it's job and probrably last longer too.
 
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Yeah, LN2 overclocking totally relevant to this discussion...
I think I'll start ignoring you.
If you dont watch you will not understand what he tried to do there. Also please do not take this personal, I'm not going to discuss this any further.
 
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I believe they are, they certainly tolerate temps much better than the older ones do.

I've always been particular about operating temps - That's just me I'll admit but again, heat is the bane of electronics period. I prefer to make things as comfortable as possible for my stuff and if I can shave off a few c's worth of heat that's good.
All I was really saying about it is if you don't have to let it run that hot, then don't - The chip will have an easier time doing it's job and probrably last longer too.
Most people dont leave that much meat on the bone is all. :)
 
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Update edit on 7/18:
Robert - Technical Marketing said:
Please note that it is totally normal for your Ryzen to use voltages in a range of 0.200V - 1.500V -- this is the factory operating range of the CPU. It is also totally normal for the temperature to cycle through 10°C swings as boost comes on and off. You will always see these characteristics, as they're intended, so do not be surprised to see such values. :)
Please do not undervolt the chip or set a maximum processor state of 99%. These are ineffective and/or detrimental changes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/cbls9g
 
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Update edit on 7/18
It surprises me that everyone... please excuse me... but I have to use it - Fuc**ng around using software tools. Are hands growing out ar*e for every reviewer? Put some real meter on the real voltage rail and make a log of it... damn, put some 99p china voltmeter and take a video while doing a bench and then log it...

We are talking about things like observer effect in electronics? FFS lads, just put the damn voltmeter on it... it is high current low voltage rail, not some low current high voltage rail, where even few kilo-ohms can sag the voltage. I am feeling like in a childrengarten.
 
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More observations

I wanted to test this statement:
"Please do not undervolt the chip or set a maximum processor state of 99%. These are ineffective and/or detrimental changes."

And unsurprisingly, since he's an AMD guy, it came true.

I ran a battery of pure single-threaded tests of various benchmarks which I had around (usually older ones), all tests done with "PBO Max", aka, PBO Enabled + AutoOC 200Mhz.
(It's quite difficult to find true single-threaded workloads today that can be reliably measured !)

Anyway, this is the outcome:

Default volts (Auto): (100% reference)

wPrime 32M - 29.5s
SuperPI 4M - 46.5s
Cine R10 - 10078
CpuZ - 516
3DMark2003 CPU T1 - 57.2
CPU-M 1.6 - 20062

1.35 volts:

wPrime 32M - 32.5 (90.8%)
SuperPI 4M - 49.7 (93.6%)
Cine R10 - 8751 (86.8%)
CpuZ - 515 (99.8%)
3DMark2003 CPU T1 - 56.2 (98.3%)
CPU-M 1.6 - 19016 (94.8%)

1.45 volts:

wPrime 32M - 30.1 (98%)
SuperPI 4M - 46.5 (100%)
Cine R10 - 9852 (97.8%)
CpuZ - 516 (100%)
3DMark2003 CPU T1 - 55.3 (96.7% - probably measurement error)
CPU-M 1.6 - 19770 (98.5%)

As observed, in wPrime and the old Cinebench 10, significant loss in performance on single thread at 1.35 !
Almost all tests across the board (with the exception of CPU-z) lost performance.

Then, re-ran the tests with manually set 1.45 (which was going nuclear in temps for multi-core), and... still slower !!
That feeling when 1.45 is an UNDERVOLT...

Basically, as observed by reviewers, it appears there is (*almost) no point whatsoever to manually set voltages and clocks on these CPUs !
Leaving PBO to do it's job (and pushing it a bit harder via AutoOC) will result in best performance in most scenarios.


* why "almost" ?

Well, temperature.
Running "Stock" as some people like to call it is too aggressive, and a "65W TDP" CPU actually consumes around 130W total (Cores + SoC) when running very heavy 16-thread workloads.

It is also the reason why 3800X and 3700X have near identical results, because PB is pushing both CPU's to the same total power envelope, which is much higher than the "65" or "105" TDP on the slides.
And that teeny-meeny Wraith Prism just can't handle that much, and temps go into 90s.

Undervolting would certainly be useful for someone in a very warm environment (No AC), and/or to keep the noise from the fast spinning Wraith cooler in check.
Yes it reduces single-thread performance, but the multi-threaded doesn't drop significantly all the way down to 1.32v or so.
 
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(It's quite difficult to find true single-threaded workloads today that can be reliably measured !)
7Zip allows selecting a single thread when using the built-in benchmark.
 
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@Bones - Saw your post

You set everything manual, that's why, and cancelling PB.
But by doing that, you made the CPU very inefficient, running higher voltage than needed for various tasks, and consuming a lot more power.
You are correct with the above but........

Setting it manually as said is intentional in my case.
PB works against me in what I'm doing and I do not like seeing speeds jumping up and down anyway. What I set it for is what I want it to be doing and no differently.

Power consumption is not an issue of any importance or worry in my case.

You also missed that I've been benching this chip meaning it's being ran hard on purpose - There is no task I have for it that would amount to needing less power to complete a task, save that the chip may run hot and not complete the bench because of it.

The thing I do with it is simple - Run it as high and fast as possible for best results and note I did say earlier I was setting things up manually with it.
 
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It surprises me that everyone... please excuse me... but I have to use it - Fuc**ng around using software tools. Are hands growing out ar*e for every reviewer? Put some real meter on the real voltage rail and make a log of it... damn, put some 99p china voltmeter and take a video while doing a bench and then log it...

We are talking about things like observer effect in electronics? FFS lads, just put the damn voltmeter on it... it is high current low voltage rail, not some low current high voltage rail, where even few kilo-ohms can sag the voltage. I am feeling like in a childrengarten.
Blame Youtube, and our forum members that reply to very informative posts (see above) with a stupid 5GHZ video... I'll leave it at that before I start ranting. Low barrier of entry = low level of quality.

I also love how GN Is now suddenly Gandhi, Jesus and the prophecy itself all in one. Things are suddenly true because 'Steve said so'... That didn't take long.
 
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Blame Youtube, and our forum members that reply to very informative posts (see above) with a stupid 5GHZ video... I'll leave it at that before I start ranting. Low barrier of entry = low level of quality.

I also love how GN Is now suddenly Gandhi, Jesus and the prophecy itself all in one. Things are suddenly true because 'Steve said so'... That didn't take long.
Well Gamers Nexus does have a majestic Jesus Hair+Beard combo.

The one thing I get from reading this thread is that the AMD heatsink is just not adequate and while ~1.4 +/- .05 might be a high voltage compared with CPUs in the past, the temperature is the big issue, and the included AMD heatsink is a joke with a RGB ring. If you are buying one of these processors, just spend the extra $50 and get a real heatsink. I think these CPUs are meant to use the 1.35 to 1.45V that they all use stock, it just needs to be kept cooler than the stock heatsink can provide.

Wraith Stealth: Looks like a knock off of the horrible Intel Heatsinks you can buy from one of those Newegg chinese 3rd party sellers, with the addition of a RGB ring.
Wraith Spire: Looks like the horrible Intel Heatsink from 115X series with the addition of a RGB ring.
Wraith Max: its the old 939 Athlon 64 through FX heatsink that was barely adequate in its time, with the addition of a RGB ring.
Wraith Prism: also looks like an FX heatsink but even more RGB.
102426-pinnacle-AM4-wraith-cooler-lineup-prism-addition-1260_0.jpg
 
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The one thing I get from reading this thread is that the AMD heatsink is just not adequate
Well... it's "adequate", but not "good" or "pleasant".
It's certainly not a joke like Stealth or the old Intel boxed ones.

It cools. At 100% RPM it keeps the CPU even under heavy workloads below 85 degrees in a well ventilated case with 5 x 140mm fans...
... but at the same time my washing machine while tumble-drying is more quiet than it.

(And that's my primary problem with it)

---
Wraith Prism is identical with Wraith Max, but it has ARGB ring and translucent blades. Other than that, identical thermal properties.

Anyway... incoming Noctua NH-U12A next week, as well as some Ballistix DDR4-3600 CL14.
That should resolve the memory and temperature bottlenecks which I've noticed so far. Will run more testing once these two are in use.

(As well as keeping my sanity, I just can't stay in the room while the computer is encoding a 4K video.... I feel like I'm in a factory somewhere with the loud noise)
 
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Anyway... incoming Noctua NH-U12A next week, as well as some Ballistix DDR4-3600 CL14.
That should resolve the memory and temperature bottlenecks which I've noticed so far. Will run more testing once these two are in use.
Suggest installing the cooler 1st and run some stuff you deem necessary to compare performance VS stock cooler and then swap the memory and repeat the tests: a bit more hassle but it gives us better idea of how much changing from stock cooler to a very good air cooler with everything else the same can do.
 
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Blame Youtube, and our forum members that reply to very informative posts (see above) with a stupid 5GHZ video... I'll leave it at that before I start ranting. Low barrier of entry = low level of quality.

I also love how GN Is now suddenly Gandhi, Jesus and the prophecy itself all in one. Things are suddenly true because 'Steve said so'... That didn't take long.
Yea. You can discard any software monitoring TBH, i2s/SPI accesing via layers of software is way too slow for real dynamic tests across cores. The digital VRM actualy has geared up numerous VID states till we actually see it on screen with our slow eye including the adding polling rate from the monitoring sofware. With time makers will do even more faster clock/voltage gearing as it does ensure better perf/watt. The hysteresis is not needed, the VRM works way faster than our perception of things eyballing some CPU-Z etc app.

At least a XY plot, from dedicated voltmeter. If you care so much for the real voltage spikes. It all rubbish waste of time talk here unless someone quits reading software VID states, that doesn't ensure that really 1.35V mean 1.35V in real life at the socket, actually it never is due to LLC and feedback compensation and protection. I hook up various voltmeters during OC, after being done with OC(found stable) I take them off, it is motherboard VRM dependant as usual.
 
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Update edit on 7/18:
Following those instructions, my Voltages now fluctuates as you'd expect them to do. Not had a chance to benchmark to see if it makes a difference though.
 
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Well Gamers Nexus does have a majestic Jesus Hair+Beard combo.

The one thing I get from reading this thread is that the AMD heatsink is just not adequate and while ~1.4 +/- .05 might be a high voltage compared with CPUs in the past, the temperature is the big issue, and the included AMD heatsink is a joke with a RGB ring. If you are buying one of these processors, just spend the extra $50 and get a real heatsink. I think these CPUs are meant to use the 1.35 to 1.45V that they all use stock, it just needs to be kept cooler than the stock heatsink can provide.

Wraith Stealth: Looks like a knock off of the horrible Intel Heatsinks you can buy from one of those Newegg chinese 3rd party sellers, with the addition of a RGB ring.
Wraith Spire: Looks like the horrible Intel Heatsink from 115X series with the addition of a RGB ring.
Wraith Max: its the old 939 Athlon 64 through FX heatsink that was barely adequate in its time, with the addition of a RGB ring.
Wraith Prism: also looks like an FX heatsink but even more RGB.
View attachment 127381
Actually the coolers between a 939 and an FX are different even though they may look/appear the same. Changes happened along the way and I'll say not to the good, the coolers got "cheaper" as time passed with the last relying on the heatpipes mostly.

The old 939's had a base with a bit of substance to them compared to the later ones, out of all from 939 to FX with this design they are still the best.

I would dare say they are at least just as good as the Wraith coolers too.
 
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Anyone want to guess what Silicon Lottery will post for golden chips? Suppose to show up at 10PM CST.
 
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