Microsoft: Only Consoles Supporting Full RDNA 2 Capabilities Are Xbox Series X and Series S, Excludes PlayStation 5

[TheLostSwede]

IIRC, Sony named their rendering API Gnmx and Gnm, and they are somewhat similar to DirectX 11 and Direct 12 respectively.

If you'd read the Wikipedia link I provided, you would've seen that one is high-level and the other low(er)-level and not really different generations.

 

[Valantar]

It's more of a cost/space concern. Cache takes up a humongous amount of space and having two L3 caches is simply not going to be a sensible move cost wise.

Oh, I know. It's a very significant portion of the Navi 21 die, after all, so if it was there at all it would by necessity be quite a bit smaller, and (unless latency made it impossible, which it very well might given the distance involved) sharing the L3 cache between the CPU and GPU would make more sense. But of course the consoles only have the Renoir-style 4MB/CCX of L3 cache, so that would be too small to make a difference.

 

[Flanker]

If you'd read the Wikipedia link I provided, you would've seen that one is high-level and the other low(er)-level and not really different generations.

Hence the somewhat

MS recommends programmers to use higher level DX11 atm. unless the lower level tweaking available only in DX12 is absolutely required (e.g. AAA game engines). Besides we sometimes use both 11 and 12 in an engine because MS allow them to interop

 

[TheLostSwede]

Oh, I know. It's a very significant portion of the Navi 21 die, after all, so if it was there at all it would by necessity be quite a bit smaller, and (unless latency made it impossible, which it very well might given the distance involved) sharing the L3 cache between the CPU and GPU would make more sense. But of course the consoles only have the Renoir-style 4MB/CCX of L3 cache, so that would be too small to make a difference.

I mean, Intel managed to stick 128MB L4 cache on the good old Broadwell chips, so it's obviously not impossible, but those chips also had a significantly less complex GPU and even CPU compared to what these consoles have.
I think we might see something like it with next gen consoles if things like CoWoS works out, as then you "can just" plop a couple of "cache chips" down right next to the GPU core and not worry about it, much in the same way HBM sits really close to the processor it's connected to. Until then I think the risk is simply too big for something this complex.

 

[Valantar]

I mean, Intel managed to stick 128MB L4 cache on the good old Broadwell chips, so it's obviously not impossible, but those chips also had a significantly less complex GPU and even CPU compared to what these consoles have.
I think we might see something like it with next gen consoles if things like CoWoS works out, as then you "can just" plop a couple of "cache chips" down right next to the GPU core and not worry about it, much in the same way HBM sits really close to the processor it's connected to. Until then I think the risk is simply too big for something this complex.

Didn't those Broadwell chips have their L4 on a separate die?

But yeah, I agree that this is unlikely until we get MCM APUs. I found it interesting how the IC on Navi 21 was quite obviously laid out to be as close to as many CUs as possible - those weird strips of cache on each side of the CUs don't make much sense unless latency is very important. That would obviously be a big challenge for any type of exotic packaging, though COWOS-L with the IC in the interposer layer would make a lot of sense. But that sounds like a feature for a 2035 console, not a 2020 one

 

[kapone32]

The have the exact same hardware (Regardless of clock speed and Processors). Microsoft would say that to try to differentiate their system as things will be at a fever pitch in about a month. The software package cannot be very different for hardware that is not similar but the same like Linux and Chromebooks.

 

[Durvelle27]

The have the exact same hardware (Regardless of clock speed and Processors). Microsoft would say that to try to differentiate their system as things will be at a fever pitch in about a month. The software package cannot be very different for hardware that is not similar but the same like Linux and Chromebooks.

They are not exactly the same hardware

PS5 uses a RDNA2 GPU with 10.28TFlops, 36CUs @2.2GHz and the Xbox Series X uses a RDNA2 GPU with 12TFlops, 52CUs @1.8GHz

That's a major hardware difference

It's like Comparing a GTX 1060 to a GTX 1080

Likely because of the PS5 having a less powerful GPU some features can't be utilized due to hardware not being able to handle it

if we take a look at the new RDNA2 Desktop GPUs announced the Xbox Series X GPU is directly behind the RX 6800 and the PS5 GPU seems to be under the unreleased RX 6700

 

[kapone32]

They are not exactly the same hardware

PS5 uses a RDNA2 GPU with 10.28TFlops, 36CUs @2.2GHz and the Xbox Series X uses a RDNA2 GPU with 12TFlops, 52CUs @1.8GHz

That's a major hardware difference

It's like Comparing a GTX 1060 to a GTX 1080

Likely because of the PS5 having a less powerful GPU some features can't be utilized due to hardware not being able to handle it

if we take a look at the new RDNA2 Desktop GPUs announced the Xbox Series X GPU is directly behind the RX 6800 and the PS5 GPU seems to be under the unreleased RX 6700

Like I said forget about the processor count they are the same hardware a Ryzen based 7nm 8/16 core CPU and a RDNA2 based GPU. My thoughts would be the 5700 and 5600XT.

 

[Durvelle27]

Like I said forget about the processor count they are the same hardware a Ryzen based 7nm 8/16 core CPU and a RDNA2 based GPU. My thoughts would be the 5700 and 5600XT.

You can't forget about the hardware as its a huge contributing factor and neither are 5000 based considering they are RDNA2 and the 5000 series is RDNA1

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

I'd like to know how that's possible, Since it still has RDNA1 parts mixed in with it's design making it RDNA1.5 Not a full-fledged RDNA 2?

 

[Durvelle27]

I'd like to know how that's possible, Since it still has RDNA1 parts mixed in with it's design making it RDNA1.5 Not a full-fledged RDNA 2?

It was shown to be full RDNA2

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

It was shown to be full RDNA2

Proof ?
link ?

 

[Turmania]

Which has the best controller wins for me.

 

[mtcn77]

Didn't those Broadwell chips have their L4 on a separate die?

But yeah, I agree that this is unlikely until we get MCM APUs. I found it interesting how the IC on Navi 21 was quite obviously laid out to be as close to as many CUs as possible - those weird strips of cache on each side of the CUs don't make much sense unless latency is very important. That would obviously be a big challenge for any type of exotic packaging, though COWOS-L with the IC in the interposer layer would make a lot of sense. But that sounds like a feature for a 2035 console, not a 2020 one

I wanna agree on several points. Registers were already 6 times faster than LDS in previous generations. With that, coupled with incurred latency of packed math instructions of some cycles, they have a window of opportunity until the penalty hit affects thoroughput. LDS scheduling can work unhindered this generation and with twice the thoroughput. Imagine just how easy it is to schedule per 4 CU's instead of 1. Waves can work without using the main caches.
This whole generation of RDNA 2 started from scalarization efforts that fruited into packed instructions and now, some instructions have double the throughput that aren't double multiplies, afaik. They can do double add and double multiply add which is a respectable portion on the average workloads. I think Timothy Lottes announced those 16-bit swda operations. Come to think of it 12TFlops to 24 TFlops is a large gain previously gone largely unnoticed.

 

[Ashtr1x]

Yeah a shit ton of technologies, but for who ? People who do not own a PC or do not even want a PC.

All these junkboxes are useless for any PC owners, and even if they want those Xbox exclusives, the library is a joke, Gears of War series which died at 3. And Forza, available for the UWP trash on PC for those who want to play that game. Halo IP, which is in free fall since Halo 5, now with Infinite they pushed as F2P MP with MTX, then a GaaS, T rated nonsense. And Infinitely delayed by showing a pathetic game engine with horrible GFX fidelity which cannot even beat Crysis 3 from 2013 forget old Crytek but it couldn't even touch Killzone Shadowfall which ran on base PS4 utter shameful M$..and their own Halo 4 from X360 era. Thankfully they did one superb job, order MCC on Win32 Steam platform with Win7 support. Which I'm grateful for, but that has tons of issues on it's own from pathetic HCEA port, FPS stability and horrid launch of Reach, etc.

They couldn't imagine a launch without any strong IP, with Halo dead for the time being they bought Bethesda, and now they could milk the IPs from them on this new garbage Xbox and now they are slowly going to ruin DOOM, Elder Scrolls. Which of the only 2 IPs that Bethesda didn't destroy like politically motivated garbage Wolfenstien Youngblood and Fallout76 with insane greed.

Maybe those console exclusives, which are not there on PC but those can be played already on Xenia and RPCS3 emulators & very old games at this point only people with real love towards them will even try to play on an Emulator. PS5 on the other hand still having H.W inferiority, is going to have exclusives like that Demon Souls Remake & also it's the lowest common mark which all devs will baseline, and other title like God of War, which is critically acclaimed but a hot garbage to the people who liked old Greek Kratos God of War Trilogy and PSP era, even Ascension is better than 2018 soy reboot. And that HZD another mainstream game with too much of a simplistic hand holding gameplay. But there will be other Japanese Studio IPs which M$ cannot touch..Also PS5 looks better and has some personality than a glorified mITX box with DX12 and proprietary SSD.

 

[Turmania]

I'm not really a console type, like to play it online but nothing serious. However, I had bought nintendo wii like more than a decade ago. It had bad graphics and etc. But it was the most fun we had with family members/kids/nephew...

 

[Valantar]

Yeah a shit ton of technologies, but for who ? People who do not own a PC or do not even want a PC.

All these junkboxes are useless for any PC owners, and even if they want those Xbox exclusives, the library is a joke, Gears of War series which died at 3. And Forza, available for the UWP trash on PC for those who want to play that game. Halo IP, which is in free fall since Halo 5, now with Infinite they pushed as F2P MP with MTX, then a GaaS, T rated nonsense. And Infinitely delayed by showing a pathetic game engine with horrible GFX fidelity which cannot even beat Crysis 3 from 2013 forget old Crytek but it couldn't even touch Killzone Shadowfall which ran on base PS4 utter shameful M$..and their own Halo 4 from X360 era. Thankfully they did one superb job, order MCC on Win32 Steam platform with Win7 support. Which I'm grateful for, but that has tons of issues on it's own from pathetic HCEA port, FPS stability and horrid launch of Reach, etc.

They couldn't imagine a launch without any strong IP, with Halo dead for the time being they bought Bethesda, and now they could milk the IPs from them on this new garbage Xbox and now they are slowly going to ruin DOOM, Elder Scrolls. Which of the only 2 IPs that Bethesda didn't destroy like politically motivated garbage Wolfenstien Youngblood and Fallout76 with insane greed.

Maybe those console exclusives, which are not there on PC but those can be played already on Xenia and RPCS3 emulators & very old games at this point only people with real love towards them will even try to play on an Emulator. PS5 on the other hand still having H.W inferiority, is going to have exclusives like that Demon Souls Remake & also it's the lowest common mark which all devs will baseline, and other title like God of War, which is critically acclaimed but a hot garbage to the people who liked old Greek Kratos God of War Trilogy and PSP era, even Ascension is better than 2018 soy reboot. And that HZD another mainstream game with too much of a simplistic hand holding gameplay. But there will be other Japanese Studio IPs which M$ cannot touch..Also PS5 looks better and has some personality than a glorified mITX box with DX12 and proprietary SSD.

Wow, that was a lot of elitist nonsense. I get it, you don't like Xbox. Don't buy one then. But please don't spam our threads with unasked for rants like that.

 

[voltage]

very interesting. I wonder how Sony will respond

 

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

Games are what matters in the end, the Nintendo Switch has a mobile soc that is equivalent to a mid range phone yet look how successful that console is because of Nintendo quality content.

 

[Ashtr1x]

Wow, that was a lot of elitist nonsense. I get it, you don't like Xbox. Don't buy one then. But please don't spam our threads with unasked for rants like that.

If you want to talk about anything wrong on the front why don't you speak up, or should I post your nonsensical essay a while back when you started "spamming" because I didn't agree with you ? here's that anyways, (don't want to quote and ruin the screen space) read it again and enjoy your beloved entitlement on Internet for PR damage control for a Corporation on a public forum.

Actions speak volumes, Xbox was an utter failure in front of PS4 in sales and units sold and that's going to repeat because of MS incompetency, And before you start typing one more essay, I would like to disclose that I don't even own a PS4 (I finished that God of War 2018 Soy reboot on a friend's PS4 Pro) nor an Xbox.

 

[Valantar]

If you want to talk about anything wrong on the front why don't you speak up, or should I post your nonsensical essay a while back when you started "spamming" because I didn't agree with you ? here's that anyways, (don't want to quote and ruin the screen space) read it again and enjoy your beloved entitlement on Internet for PR damage control for a Corporation on a public forum.

Actions speak volumes, Xbox was an utter failure in front of PS4 in sales and units sold and that's going to repeat because of MS incompetency, And before you start typing one more essay, I would like to disclose that I don't even own a PS4 (I finished that God of War 2018 Soy reboot on a friend's PS4 Pro) nor an Xbox.

Ah, okay, so actually presenting arguments is the same as spamming. Cool - you must be a part of lots of insightful and interesting debates. Tbh though, I don't give a damn about corporations - just like they don't give a damn about me beyond any ability I might have to increase their profits - but I do get pretty annoyed by people wading into a debate with off-topic rants full of alt-right virtue signalling. I mean, just your compulsive need to call the latest GoW "soy reboot" speaks volumes. Oh, and who here is defending a corporation? To paraphrase your first post here: "I don't care about consoles, but Xbox is shit and Sony has all the good games" - that's about as direct an endorsement of Sony as you can get while still positioning yourself as a PC user. As for actions ... speaking volumes (that's not how that saying goes, but whatever), it's rather problematic to attribute the market share and mindshare advantage of PlayStation as a brand simply to the "actions" of any corporation, person or group of people. At best that's a gross oversimplification. There's no doubt that Sony has an advantage in both mindshare and marketshare, though as with most duopolies the advantage of the leading party is based on marketing more than merit. I mean, there's no doubt that MS messed up the XBOne launch in quite a few ways, but so did Sony with the PS3 launch, so that's about equal, no? I'm obviously not arguing that Xbox is somehow superior to PlayStation, but you're arguing as if markets are rational and that the outcomes in a market are mostly down to the actions of the major actors in said markets, which they aren't even close to. As for speaking up - wasn't that exactly what I did?

 

[Ashtr1x]

Ah, okay, so actually presenting arguments is the same as spamming. Cool - you must be a part of lots of insightful and interesting debates. Tbh though, I don't give a damn about corporations - just like they don't give a damn about me beyond any ability I might have to increase their profits - but I do get pretty annoyed by people wading into a debate with off-topic rants full of alt-right virtue signalling. I mean, just your compulsive need to call the latest GoW "soy reboot" speaks volumes. Oh, and who here is defending a corporation? To paraphrase your first post here: "I don't care about consoles, but Xbox is shit and Sony has all the good games" - that's about as direct an endorsement of Sony as you can get while still positioning yourself as a PC user. As for actions ... speaking volumes (that's not how that saying goes, but whatever), it's rather problematic to attribute the market share and mindshare advantage of PlayStation as a brand simply to the "actions" of any corporation, person or group of people. At best that's a gross oversimplification. There's no doubt that Sony has an advantage in both mindshare and marketshare, though as with most duopolies the advantage of the leading party is based on marketing more than merit. I mean, there's no doubt that MS messed up the XBOne launch in quite a few ways, but so did Sony with the PS3 launch, so that's about equal, no? I'm obviously not arguing that Xbox is somehow superior to PlayStation, but you're arguing as if markets are rational and that the outcomes in a market are mostly down to the actions of the major actors in said markets, which they aren't even close to. As for speaking up - wasn't that exactly what I did?

Man enjoy your Xbox, I don't even like Consoles, I hate them for their stupid restrictions that's why i don't even have one nor going to buy one. The only redeeming factor for them is exclusives which is regarded as worse on PC (EGS) and equally seen in Console vs PC by many, but there's no absolute reason for anyone who has a PC to own Xbox, it doesn't have any logic. They are in Gamepass which I also hate because of UWP garbage DRM and that bloatware and worst of all zero ownership. But since majority love that service of Games as a Service all of the games are there on PC including Forza. The fact which is good about consoles from my point of view is full disc support, physical ownership, yea some games need patched Firmware and etc. But still it's at-least playable fully offline vs PCs Digital only.

Now Soy reboot, yeah you can talk anything you want about Alt Right lol. Go to Inverse and see their notions on how they want to advertise this game as killing male patriarchy and toxic masculinity and having Feminist narrative for that Horizon Zero Dawn at Guardian this is the direction of Sony nowadays. The game director Cory guy's twitter is full of the same garbage that all these far left media spout, on. The series died to me after God of War III / Ascension was last anyways but per story it's a prequel. And the combat system is complete garbage, the fast paced DMC style to slow crappy game cheap DS clone. I finished it on Hardcore and it was patehtic. A clone of The Last of Us and Uncharted type slow garbage, which never was a part of any God of War game until this and horrrible boss fights, a cheap RPG system, useless open world fetch quests. God of War series boss fights and battle was the meat of it's essence not a pathetic broken Kratos with reskinned Troll fights as bosses, all the might and fierceness along with his Brutality are dead gone, God of War II making (2007) and see how Charlie mentions the idea of Kid and Kratos sounds retarded and stupid. It cannot even hold a cancle to Ghost of Sparta, forget trying to compete with God of War II and III. I forgot to mention the Camera. Holyhell that was a nightmare, rely on a stupid indicator vs a full blown camera. Yea they wanted to make it like the usual PS4 era of movies into games. So yeah I have all of this and even more to mention, so what do you have ? except "Alt-right" good one dude. Keep it up.

The audience change over time, that's why this game got GOTY which is a joke when the game such as RDR2 should win not this pathetic garbage which should never have been named as God of War. I'm happy that MS failed at Halo by desecrating the franchise with Halo 5, they couldn't even make Halo Infinite look better than Xbox 360 era Halo 4. That IP cannot be reanimated anymore and claim GOTYs now like this, reason Halo 5 got a mention in this midst is because 343 Industries does the same crap. They destroyed Cortana completely and made her a Karen and turned her against Master Chief. Better they remove the Master word now from Halo infinite since MS internal code of conduct removes the concept of master and slave from Github.

 

[Valantar]

Man enjoy your Xbox, I don't even like Consoles, I hate them for their stupid restrictions that's why i don't even have one nor going to buy one. The only redeeming factor for them is exclusives which is regarded as worse on PC (EGS) and equally seen in Console vs PC by many, but there's no absolute reason for anyone who has a PC to own Xbox, it doesn't have any logic. They are in Gamepass which I also hate because of UWP garbage DRM and that bloatware and worst of all zero ownership. But since majority love that service of Games as a Service all of the games are there on PC including Forza. The fact which is good about consoles from my point of view is full disc support, physical ownership, yea some games need patched Firmware and etc. But still it's at-least playable fully offline vs PCs Digital only.

Now Soy reboot, yeah you can talk anything you want about Alt Right lol. Go to Inverse and see their notions on how they want to advertise this game as killing male patriarchy and toxic masculinity and having Feminist narrative for that Horizon Zero Dawn at Guardian this is the direction of Sony nowadays. The game director Cory guy's twitter is full of the same garbage that all these far left media spout, on. The series died to me after God of War III / Ascension was last anyways but per story it's a prequel. And the combat system is complete garbage, the fast paced DMC style to slow crappy game cheap DS clone. I finished it on Hardcore and it was patehtic. A clone of The Last of Us and Uncharted type slow garbage, which never was a part of any God of War game until this and horrrible boss fights, a cheap RPG system, useless open world fetch quests. God of War series boss fights and battle was the meat of it's essence not a pathetic broken Kratos with reskinned Troll fights as bosses, all the might and fierceness along with his Brutality are dead gone, God of War II making (2007) and see how Charlie mentions the idea of Kid and Kratos sounds retarded and stupid. It cannot even hold a cancle to Ghost of Sparta, forget trying to compete with God of War II and III. I forgot to mention the Camera. Holyhell that was a nightmare, rely on a stupid indicator vs a full blown camera. Yea they wanted to make it like the usual PS4 era of movies into games. So yeah I have all of this and even more to mention, so what do you have ? except "Alt-right" good one dude. Keep it up.

The audience change over time, that's why this game got GOTY which is a joke when the game such as RDR2 should win not this pathetic garbage which should never have been named as God of War. I'm happy that MS failed at Halo by desecrating the franchise with Halo 5, they couldn't even make Halo Infinite look better than Xbox 360 era Halo 4. That IP cannot be reanimated anymore and claim GOTYs now like this, reason Halo 5 got a mention in this midst is because 343 Industries does the same crap. They destroyed Cortana completely and made her a Karen and turned her against Master Chief. Better they remove the Master word now from Halo infinite since MS internal code of conduct removes the concept of master and slave from Github.

Yawn. Another day, another entirely off-topic rant. I don't even get who you're arguing against at this point.