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Microsoft Unveils the Xbox Series S: The Smallest Xbox Ever

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1080p is enough for 95% of people on this planet.
I reckon 480p is enough too, because you can probably still tell the players apart in games. Come on. 1080p is the resolution of the past generation, do people even look into 1080p TVs these days when they buy something for their living room ? So how did you work out that it's enough for "95%" of the planet ? If they buy 4K TVs, they want 4K content as well.

Yeah, PCs are fun, but for only gaming, they aren't that great. Not everybody is a hardware geek.
Running games at above consoles quality and performance is "not that great" ? You don't need to be a geek to run a game at higher resolution and notice that it's better.
 

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If they buy 4K TVs, they want 4K content as well.
there is hardly any 4k tv that i am aware of yet, 4k tv's are still not worth it.
 
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there is hardly any 4k tv that i am aware of yet, 4k tv's are still not worth it.
Huh ? They go for as little as 250$ these days, some even cheaper. How can they possibly not be worth it ?
 
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there is hardly any 4k tv that i am aware of yet, 4k tv's are still not worth it.
There are 4K TV's that cost like $400...
Honestly, it'd be hard for me to find a TV that is above ~40" and NOT 4K.
 
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Those were kinda justified with the mass 4K TV adoption. I don't particularly mind the XSS, but I hope we don't get mid-cycle refreshes with spec bumps again.
While that is true, doesn't the fact that 4k gaming is extraordinarily inefficient compared to the perceptible gains in quality still justify a two-tier system?
I don't know what really qualifies as massive success but I am pretty sure the normal consoles outsold them by at least an order of magnitude. At least with those they were launched years after the base consoles but now they want to basically release them all at the same time.

The real question in my opinion is, what difference will consoles now have versus PCs ? You now have tiers of performance just as with PCs, exclusives seem to be less and less of a thing. Why buy a console ? They are willingly removing the only advantages these things had and they simultaneously make development harder.
Cheaper consoles will always sell better, so that's not surprising by any means. And of course MS doesn't publish console sales numbers, and Sony doesn't split theirs between the base PS4 and the Pro. But they have both been said to sell (very) well by the companies making them - and to be frank, given the cost of these machines, they would have been quickly discontinued if they didn't. They have also been massive drivers for mindshare gains, and largely reignited the idea that console games can look good, something that quickly fizzled after the low-tier hardware both console makers pushed out in 2013.
I reckon 480p is enough too, because you can probably still tell the players apart in games. Come on. 1080p is the resolution of the past generation, do people even look into 1080p TVs these days when they buy something for their living room ? So how did you work out that it's enough for "95%" of the planet ? If they buy 4K TVs, they want 4K content as well.

Running games at above consoles quality and performance is "not that great" ? You don't need to be a geek to run a game at higher resolution and notice that it's better.
The thing is, gaming at 4k is ... well, pretty stupid. At normal TV sizes (40-65" depending on where you are in the world) and viewing distances, the perceptible difference between a good 4k TV and a good 1080p TV is near zero. There are some marginal gains in sharpness and detail, but the biggest gains are in new technologies that are rarely found on 1080p sets, such as HDR. And that, after all, works just as well on 1080p content. Given that both "flagship" consoles aim for "true" 4k gaming with the sacrifices in power and price that entails, it makes perfect sense to make a "entry" console that plays all the same games at the same frame rates and with the same feel, just at a lower resolution. Will they look as good? No. Will the two configurations be perfectly balanced? Of course not. But it will nonetheless be trivial for developers to implement a second performance tier - in many cases it might be as simple as lowering the rendering resolution and perhaps dropping AF or AA by a notch or two, though many will no doubt also put in the relatively small extra effort of making lower-res assets for the lower end configuration. The point being: if an XSX can play, say, Fortnite at 4k120-ish, and the XSS can play it at 1080p120-ish, the experience of play will be pretty much the same. Not identical, but very similar. One can thus justify calling this the same performance level at different resolutions (obviously not just "the same performance level"), especially as metrics such as frame times, responsiveness, input lag, loading times, etc. will all have just as much if not more of an effect on the perceived performance of the system than the rendering resolution.

Your comparison to PCs is also a complete false equivalency: here we're talking about two performance tiers (three in terms of games that also launch for the high end versions of previous gen consoles), with essentially one fixed set of variables (either tier A with attributes x, or tier B with attributes y), while for PCs the performance tiers are essentially endless - there are at least three generations of GPUs from two vendors that are still relevant, with anywhere from a handful to a dozen SKUs per generation, with vast performance gaps, and several models come in different VRAM configurations too. There are a decade's worth of CPUs, ranging from 4c4t to 16c32t, at widely varying frequencies, with different levels of cache and other relevant attributes. There are at least three relevant RAM levels - 8, 16 and 32GB - three major 16:9 resolutions, a jumble of 21:9 resolutions, and even 32:9 cropping up. Even just simplifying this down to simple base variables - CPU, GPU, RAM and resolution - you have a vastly more complex system than an A/B choice of console performance tiers.
 
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The thing is, gaming at 4k is ... well, pretty stupid. At normal TV sizes (40-65" depending on where you are in the world) and viewing distances, the perceptible difference between a good 4k TV and a good 1080p TV is near zero.
I think you are really wrong on that one and there is a particular aspect that you are overlooking. I guarantee you that you can notice the pixel structure even as far back as 2 meters on a 65" 1080p TV.

1080p on a 4K display vs 4K on a 4K display, fine you can argue that it's not that bad from far back.
1080p on a 1080p display vs 4K on a 4K display or even 1080p on a 4K display is worlds apart.

Your comparison to PCs is also a complete false equivalency: here we're talking about two performance tiers (three in terms of games that also launch for the high end versions of previous gen consoles), with essentially one fixed set of variables (either tier A with attributes x, or tier B with attributes y), while for PCs the performance tiers are essentially endless - there are at least three generations of GPUs from two vendors that are still relevant, with anywhere from a handful to a dozen SKUs per generation, with vast performance gaps, and several models come in different VRAM configurations too. There are a decade's worth of CPUs, ranging from 4c4t to 16c32t, at widely varying frequencies, with different levels of cache and other relevant attributes. There are at least three relevant RAM levels - 8, 16 and 32GB - three major 16:9 resolutions, a jumble of 21:9 resolutions, and even 32:9 cropping up. Even just simplifying this down to simple base variables - CPU, GPU, RAM and resolution - you have a vastly more complex system than an A/B choice of console performance tiers.
Just because one has more configurations it doesn't mean it's not the same idea. And really you can reduce those "endless" tiers to just a few that really matter or that make a difference. The point is, it used to be that there was 1 console from each vendor that you'd buy and that was it. It's a paradox, the mantra was that supposedly the typical console buyer doesn't care about higher resolutions and performance, he just wants to play games and yet now he has to chose based on those metrics.

Just like on a PC ...
 
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there is hardly any 4k tv that i am aware of yet, 4k tv's are still not worth it.
Hi,
LG has quite a few heck I got a cheapo 43" class 300.us it's actually a pretty good smart t.v. and yes 4k UHD with HDR
Not worth it ? well depends on your needs this was just a cheap replacement for 40" that finally died after 6 years that was a heck of a lot more.
 
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I reckon 480p is enough too, because you can probably still tell the players apart in games. Come on. 1080p is the resolution of the past generation, do people even look into 1080p TVs these days when they buy something for their living room ? So how did you work out that it's enough for "95%" of the planet ? If they buy 4K TVs, they want 4K content as well.
Primary Display Resolution
 
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bug

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Hi,
LG has quite a few heck I got a cheapo 43" class 300.us it's actually a pretty good smart t.v. and yes 4k UHD with HDR
Not worth it ? well depends on your needs this was just a cheap replacement for 40" that finally died after 6 years that was a heck of a lot more.
I wouldn't put HDR and LCD in the same phrase. Current implementations are that poor.
 
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While that is true, doesn't the fact that 4k gaming is extraordinarily inefficient compared to the perceptible gains in quality still justify a two-tier system?
I have never tried a 1080p or 4K console on a 4K TV so I don’t exactly know what the difference in quality is. In the end I probably would prefer them to have only one console that is sort of in between these two. But this $299 console might end up being a brilliant move for Microsoft. The vast majority of console players I’ve known during my life has pretty much only played FIFA on it. So they’ll buy whatever box is cheapest that can run the latest version. But the market for the XSX may have gotten much smaller.

@Vya Domus this console can do upscaled 4K so it probably looks good enough on a 4K TV.
 
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there is hardly any 4k tv that i am aware of yet, 4k tv's are still not worth it.
Most of what we watch on Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, etc is in 4K...

But yeah, 95% of what's coming through the Xfinity "standard" cable is garbage. Most isn't even 1080p yet, it's 720.

Buying a 1080p TV at today's prices is foolish.
 

BigBonedCartman

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Microsoft Is obviously trying to match Sony’s disc less PS5 option. Microsoft’s problem is lack of exclusive titles where Sony has the edge and PC owners can play Xbox games without having to buy a console.
 

bug

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Most of what we watch on Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, etc is in 4K...

But yeah, 95% of what's coming through the Xfinity "standard" cable is garbage. Most isn't even 1080p yet, it's 720.

Buying a 1080p TV at today's prices is foolish.
I haven't checked Amazon Prime or Disney, but most of what's on Netflix definitely isn't 4k. Most of Netflix original content is, but that's not most of the content.
And yes, cable is just compressed till all detail is lost, no upscaler can make that look good.
 
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I wouldn't put HDR and LCD in the same phrase. Current implementations are that poor.
Hi,
Seems fine to me although I disable hdr feature and use cinema mode
Other than that for 300.us t.v picture is good better than prior sony 40" which cost double at the least and was pc capable with vga port.
Also on hdmi scales nicely using old 980ti.
 

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Just because one has more configurations it doesn't mean it's not the same idea. And really you can reduce those "endless" tiers to just a few that really matter or that make a difference. The point is, it used to be that there was 1 console from each vendor that you'd buy and that was it. It's a paradox, the mantra was that supposedly the typical console buyer doesn't care about higher resolutions and performance, he just wants to play games and yet now he has to chose based on those metrics.

Just like on a PC ...
Are you just willfully ignoring the past generation where consoles have been turned into PCs? And I don't know who should be more insulted by your posts, developers or consumers. Devs are apparently too stupid/lazy to down res games (they won't have too, OS takes care of everything anyways). Or consumers are too stupid to choose between a high end console and low end one.

There is no negative to giving consumers more options...
 
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I haven't checked Amazon Prime or Disney, but most of what's on Netflix definitely isn't 4k. Most of Netflix original content is, but that's not most of the content.
And yes, cable is just compressed till all detail is lost, no upscaler can make that look good.
Most of what we watch.
 

bug

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$299 is indeed crazy for the spec.
 
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Microsoft Is obviously trying to match Sony’s disc less PS5 option. Microsoft’s problem is lack of exclusive titles where Sony has the edge and PC owners can play Xbox games without having to buy a console.
Uh, this is going to be miles cheaper than the disc-less PS5. Remember, that's a fully featured high end configuration, just missing the BD drive. At best, that's a $50 price cut (and likely a $20-30 savings for them), though I could see Sony stretching that to $100 and eating a lot of losses on hardware sales if MS undercuts them severely.
I think you are really wrong on that one and there is a particular aspect that you are overlooking. I guarantee you that you can notice the pixel structure even as far back as 2 meters on a 65" 1080p TV.

1080p on a 4K display vs 4K on a 4K display, fine you can argue that it's not that bad from far back.
1080p on a 1080p display vs 4K on a 4K display or even 1080p on a 4K display is worlds apart.

Just because one has more configurations it doesn't mean it's not the same idea. And really you can reduce those "endless" tiers to just a few that really matter or that make a difference. The point is, it used to be that there was 1 console from each vendor that you'd buy and that was it. It's a paradox, the mantra was that supposedly the typical console buyer doesn't care about higher resolutions and performance, he just wants to play games and yet now he has to chose based on those metrics.

Just like on a PC ...
So, in your opinion, 2 ~= 100 (or 1000, or 1000000)? 'Cause that's what you are arguing here. "Just a few that really matter" is utter nonsense. There's a reason that PC games have a million graphics options and an ever increasing set of quality presets in addition to ever more complex auto-setting systems, and that's because the complexity of the PC hardware configurations out there is absolutely staggering. You're arguing that there is effectively a paradigmatic shift in going from a single console spec to 2, and that this new paradigm is equal to the reigning paradigm in the PC space. This is simply not true. Even if discussing the difficulty of tuning a game for maximum performance, while there is a clear increase in difficulty going from one configuration to two, the step from two configurations to the massive amount needed in the PC space is many orders of magnitude bigger.

Secondly, who on earth sits two meters away from a 65" TV? The most frequently quoted tip for TV viewing distance I've seen is as close as possible to 3x the diagonal size of the TV away from it - which for a 65" TV thus becomes five metres. Of course not many people have living rooms that huge, but two metres for that size of TV is ridiculous.

As for your display/render resolution comparison, I think you're partially right, but it very much depends on the quality of the TV too. 1080p on a cheap/bad 4k TV looks far worse than 1080p on a good 1080p TV. Still, at that point you should agree that rendering at a lower resolution is an entirely acceptable approach towards providing a comparable gaming experience at a lower cost, right?
I have never tried a 1080p or 4K console on a 4K TV so I don’t exactly know what the difference in quality is. In the end I probably would prefer them to have only one console that is sort of in between these two. But this $299 console might end up being a brilliant move for Microsoft. The vast majority of console players I’ve known during my life has pretty much only played FIFA on it. So they’ll buy whatever box is cheapest that can run the latest version. But the market for the XSX may have gotten much smaller.
MS cares about their install base for their console ecosystem, not sales numbers for specific pieces of hardware - game sales and subscription service sales are what you make money on in the console business, not hardware sales. So MS will be happy no matter which console you buy from them as long as they can then sell you Xbox Live Gold or Game Pass. Which is going to be a huge proportion of buyers of even the cheaper console. Game Pass Ultimate is a killer deal even for PC gamers, after all.
 

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Jesus change that fan grill to white for gods sake.
 
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Porbably noisy as f**k.
 
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Are you just willfully ignoring the past generation where consoles have been turned into PCs?
That's exactly what I am saying, and as they become more and more PC-like the reasons for them being slowly disappear.

And I don't know who should be more insulted by your posts, developers or consumers.
I don't know but if they feel insulted they should get a life.

So, in your opinion, 2 ~= 100 (or 1000, or 1000000)? 'Cause that's what you are arguing here.
You know very well that's not what I am arguing. In terms of GPU/CPU from all three vendors, probably less than ~30 of their products account for 95% of the stuff people actually want to buy. Other than that, RAM, motherboard, storage, etc, those are all standardized and are more less inconsequential. Just because there are a million brands making the exact same damn thing doesn't mean you actually have that much choice, that's really dumb.

In my opinion 100 is much closer to the same magnitude that 2 is, instead of the "millions" like you argue.

Consoles used to be sold on the premise that there is going to be just one hardware configuration which will last for years, 2 > 1, so that principle is already broken. Xbox One games look like mud (720p and even less) compared to their Xbox One X counter parts. Xbox Series S games will look the same compared to whatever higher end console they'll make (which you know they will, eventually) or maybe even to Series X right now.

You view it as a compromise, I view it as MS selling underpowered crap and creating a bunch of platforms delivering inconsistent quality.
There's a reason that PC games have a million graphics options
They don't have a "million" options, they have very few, it's rare that I see a game with more than 5 options say, maximum about 10. It doesn't matter because the same idea applies, out of those 10 options, maybe 3-4 have a noticeable impact in quality/performance. But you don't even need to touch those, there are presets anyway.

Secondly, who on earth sits two meters away from a 65" TV? The most frequently quoted tip for TV viewing distance I've seen is as close as possible to 3x the diagonal size of the TV away from it - which for a 65" TV thus becomes five metres. Of course not many people have living rooms that huge, but two metres for that size of TV is ridiculous.
One, two, ten, who cares. It was just an example, large 1080p displays look horrid in comparison with 4K ones, that's just the reality. No matter how far you get away, the pixel grid remains visible, a 65" 1080p TV has 33 PPI for Christ sake. 33

That's dismal.

As for your display/render resolution comparison, I think you're partially right, but it very much depends on the quality of the TV too. 1080p on a cheap/bad 4k TV looks far worse than 1080p on a good 1080p TV. Still, at that point you should agree that rendering at a lower resolution is an entirely acceptable approach towards providing a comparable gaming experience at a lower cost, right?
If you are talking about scaling that's a non issue, you can always do the scaling on the GPU and avoid anything the TV does to the image. 1080p on a 4K display never looks worse than on a 1080p one, I've seen really cheap 4K TVs ,like under 250$ cheap and I wound't trade it for the most expensive 1080p TV in the world. It just doesn't compare, the PPI is simply not there.
 
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I reckon 480p is enough too, because you can probably still tell the players apart in games. Come on. 1080p is the resolution of the past generation, do people even look into 1080p TVs these days when they buy something for their living room ? So how did you work out that it's enough for "95%" of the planet ? If they buy 4K TVs, they want 4K content as well.



Running games at above consoles quality and performance is "not that great" ? You don't need to be a geek to run a game at higher resolution and notice that it's better.
4K gaming is pointless. The view distance alone will make you waste about 75% horsepower on a very tiny benefit. The fact consoles will do it is just telling us one thing: you don't get 4K. You get pseudo 4K with lots of variable detail and LOD. The tech is known, and a lot of it is good, but a lot of it is also visibly just a blurfest. Some games even today man... shit. Resident Evil. You try that internal resolution slider even a tiny bit away from maxed out, and its like you're back in 1999.

And let's not forget the latency, the FPS.... they all take a back seat if you really want 4K native.

1080p is a very decent res still. Whether for a living room at 2M view distance on any panel between 32-46 inch, or in a study room at normal monitor distance up to 24 inch. Its fine. Pixel density is very close to whatever you got from going bigger in res+diagonal. Its an uphill battle for more real estate of which most isn't fully utilized, and diminishing returns apply.

Also... the adoption rates aren't very high. Yes, 4K TVs are pushed in our face so everyone who gets a TV, gets a 4K TV. But that doesn't mean there is adoption for gaming. That relies on GPU progress, and the barrier of entry is still extremely high.
 
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That's exactly what I am saying, and as they become more and more PC-like the reasons for them being slowly disappear.
Which are?
I don't know but if they feel insulted they should get a life.
You're making it sound as if people buying consoles are stupid. Is everyone buying an iPhone, a Mac or a Switch also stupid?

You view it as a compromise, I view it as MS selling underpowered crap and creating a bunch of platforms delivering inconsistent quality.
It's MS trying to capture as many potential "gamers" as possible, with a cheap console. Simple as that.

One, two, ten, who cares. It was just an example, large 1080p displays look horrid in comparison with 4K ones
Why are you fixated at 4k? For 99% of people in the world (who game on any device) 4k literally doesn't matter. Make that 99.99% :toast:
 
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