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MSI allegedly attempts to pay off a Youtuber not to post a negative review

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I see this as the norm in most Asian industries where a bribe is often overt and expected.
 
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I see this as the norm in most Asian industries where a bribe is often overt and expected.
Seen this many times now. To me it is meaningless. When you do business internationally, you need to mind what is and is not acceptable where you choose to do business. Buyers have no obligations to accept how you do things where you're based. If that's how they want to operate, they can do it where it's standard practice. But otherwise they can only expect to be held to the same standard as those competing in the same market. They ignore the rules at their own peril. It's on them to recognize the problem and deal with it... not for us to accept how they operate. No special treatment.
 
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Indeed, but when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar, an example has to be set. To do otherwise is basically passively condoning it. Just because it happens all of the time doesn't mean it should be accepted when it pops out in the open.

Of course there is no responsibility on the part of customers. No reason to feel guilt for buying their products if the products work for you. That is the point of the exchange. Whether or not you want to buy their products is a personal choice that I don't think anyone else can really make for you or rightly hold against you.

But nor is that grounds for dismissal of repeated bad-faith behavior. "Everybody's doing it." ain't gonna cut it. If we stopped prosecuting people caught committing common crimes simply because they are common, what happens to the standard for behavior in our society? If anything, that is the best reason for making an example out of that behavior. When a situation is out of control, passively abiding it only makes it worse. People may still buy thier products, but it's still worth talking about. They still deserve the hit to their reputation. Others do the same and get away with it, no doubt. But it can't be proven. In this case, the wrongdoings are blatant and grounds for trial by public opinion at a minimum. They ought to feel the heat for this. Maybe it will motivate them to make better products instead.

Think of it this way... this is behavior that ultimately hurts me and you, it hurts the industry, it hurts reviewers. If you still buy the products that's fine, but lets not pretend like it's fine and dandy that companies conduct themselves in a way that leaves the consumer mislead with a lower quality product than they expected and diminished trust in the markets they support. I don't care how many people do it and get away with it. It's never okay. If caught, there should still be a price to pay. Companies who do this and reviewers who go along are basically stealing from us. That they have good products too is meaningless, because they'll just as easily try to pawn crap on you as they will sell you something that's actually worth it. One doesn't cancel out the other. They may have been straight-up with you, but they ripped off the next guy. No reason why that couldn't have been you.
Shall we all tear Windows 10 from our computers then?, becuase we all seem to forget how anti-competition Microsoft were labelled, and allegedly still are.

I see this as the norm in most Asian industries where a bribe is often overt and expected.
It's called business. Every country does it.
 
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Shall we all tear Windows 10 from our computers then?, becuase we all seem to forget how anti-competition Microsoft were labelled, and allegedly still are.
Lets not conflate a completely separate issue that isn't nearly as cut and dry. Not to mention there are fewer alternatives.

Even if we are to assume they are the same, I didn't say the buyer has no responsibility for the company for no reason. My whole point was that just because it is common practice doesn't mean that it has to be accepted or hand waved as the way things are and will always be. If you're comfortable being used and lied to, feel free to be quiet and complicit in it. I say let it at least be known. I see no good reason to forgive it. All that says to them is that they can get away with more and the very people they take advantage of will rise to their defense.
 
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Lets not conflate a completely separate issue that isn't nearly as cut and dry. Not to mention there are fewer alternatives.

Even if we are to assume they are the same, I didn't say the buyer has no responsibility for the company for no reason. My whole point was that just because it is common practice doesn't mean that it has to be accepted or hand waved as the way things are and will always be. If you're comfortable being used and lied to, feel free to be quiet and complicit in it. I say let it at least be known. I see no good reason to forgive it. All that says to them is that they can get away with more and the very people they take advantage of will rise to their defense.
I'm not defending MSI, nor would I defend any other company tech related or otherwise.
But there really is no defending the indefensible. My conscience tells me to discard (vehicles included) every consumable I own. because I bet nearly all manufacturers have been involved in underhaded tactics in one way or another to enrich themselves.
I could go on - and on, and on and on...............................................
 
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I'm not defending MSI, nor would I defend any other company tech related or otherwise.
But there really is no defending the indefensible. My conscience tells me to discard (vehicles included) every consumable I own. becuase in some way shape or form I can bet nearly all of them have been involved in underhaded tactics in one way or another to enrich themselves.
I could go on - and on, and on and on...............................................
Well sure, but sometimes if there is enough push, things do change. People say vote with your wallet. All of the money I will make in my life is a very small vote. It's pointless. But if all shareholders see when they read about a company they back is bad press, they may start thinking about distancing themselves before they are drawn in. And what they contribute in a relatively short time is many times more than I will spend in my entire life. Not to mention, public companies are legally beholden to answer to those folks. If buyers don't have confidence, investors see that and get nervous... the band does tighten. It's not for nothing. Even Microsoft isn't immune to this, and I'd bet they like being sought after on wall st. There is a lot of money riding on that trust, and I'm not talking about what's in OUR wallets. Nobody will back a company that is hated. It puts their financial future into question. Even if there is no competition at the time, it puts them in a position to eventually see a successor rise up. The longer it goes on, the worse it looks. So companies do tend to jump on it. And if people aren't satisfied, they know it's in their best interest to do even more.

Or in this case, we have a company that tried to go behind people's backs to maintain a competitive image. It seems fitting that their image would suffer when it was brought out. And that serves as a good incentive to stop doing it. If people just let it go, they'd have no reason to stop. But if what they're doing to improve thier image is having the opposite effect and people are speaking out about it, there's a whole lot less motivation to continue. It forces people higher up to get involved and hopefully make it at least a little more favorable for us. It has become thier problem, because people above them are going to want to have answers on where all this bad press that's messing with their bottom line is coming from and what is going to be done about it. What counts is that they know that when they do that, people get mad. Pissed off customers eventually go elsewhere, so their focus now has to be on course correcting. It's not all about immediate sales. A company willing to stoop to this for the sake of image clearly values that as much as sales. So whether people buy or not, the bad press hits where it hurts. Now all eyes are on them. It will be harder for them to get away with it. And that's exactly how it should be.
 
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Well sure, but sometimes if there is enough push, things do change. People say vote with your wallet. All of the money I will make in my life is a very small vote. It's pointless. But if all shareholders see when they read about a company they back is bad press, they may start thinking about distancing themselves before they are drawn in. And what they contribute in a relatively short time is many times more than I will spend in my entire life. Not to mention, public companies are legally beholden to answer to those folks. If buyers don't have confidence, investors see that and get nervous... the band does tighten. It's not for nothing. Even Microsoft isn't immune to this, and I'd bet they like being sought after on wall st. There is a lot of money riding on that trust, and I'm not talking about what's in OUR wallets. Nobody will back a company that is hated. It puts their financial future into question. Even if there is no competition at the time, it puts them in a position to eventually see a successor rise up. The longer it goes on, the worse it looks. So companies do tend to jump on it. And if people aren't satisfied, they know it's in their best interest to do even more.

Or in this case, we have a company that tried to go behind people's backs to maintain a competitive image. It seems fitting that their image would suffer when it was brought out. And that serves as a good incentive to stop doing it. If people just let it go, they'd have no reason to stop. But if what they're doing to improve thier image is having the opposite effect and people are speaking out about it, there's a whole lot less motivation to continue. It forces people higher up to get involved and hopefully make it at least a little more favorable for us. It has become thier problem, because people above them are going to want to have answers on where all this bad press that's messing with their bottom line is coming from and what is going to be done about it. What counts is that they know that when they do that, people get mad. Pissed off customers eventually go elsewhere, so their focus now has to be on course correcting. It's not all about immediate sales. A company willing to stoop to this for the sake of image clearly values that as much as sales. So whether people buy or not, the bad press hits where it hurts. Now all eyes are on them. It will be harder for them to get away with it. And that's exactly how it should be.
I like your passion but people have very short memories, and this alleged bribe my MSI is a drop in the ocean that will soon be forgotten, Just like the GTX 970 VRAM fiasco. and Intel's CPU patching, and Apple and Samsung's alleged slowing of phone's. Yet people still flock to buy their goods when they hit the shelves. MSI will be around for years to come.
 
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I like your passion but people have very short memories, and this alleged bribe my MSI is a drop in the ocean that will soon be forgotten, Just like the GTX 970 VRAM fiasco. and Intel's CPU patching, and Apple and Samsung's alleged slowing of phone's. Yet people still flock to buy their goods when they hit the shelves. MSI will be around for years to come.
People may forget, but MSI won't have the luxury. They will have to think twice next time, or run the risk of refreshing people's memories. To me it's enough that they will now have to be on their toes when it comes to dealing with reviewers, who now also have things to lose by associating with MSI. MSI clearly wants the reviews and can't lose them, and so will have to make some changes.

I get what you're saying though. People get all hopped up but in the end return to sort of buying against their best interests. Said it many times before and I'll say it again: people are generally terrible at dealing with anything beyond the present. Our minds simply aren't built for it - we reach the wrong conclusions. I myself do this. I know I do! It can't fully be avoided. But I still think that's not all that's at stake. The psychological component is still to be wrestled with and Apple and Samsung spend big money to stay on top. When they take hits like that, they may still get more than enough sales, but it will never be what it could've been.

They are in a vulnerable position where if a suitable competitor for any particular product pops up post-image-dip, people will subconsciously give it more consideration, which would normally not have been given had the pull of the big guy's reputation not been dealt blows. It does stick around and trickle, even if people stop talking about it and many still buy. And they don't just want good sales. They want to continually maximize and increase them. So they have to care at least a little. A loss is a loss, especially when we're dealing with bean counters. Not to mention, the second time around stings more.

The way I see it, consumers only stand to benefit by things like this happening. It directly puts some fire to MSI's asses and makes their competition more careful to not be next. Of course people would still buy from them, but at least they will have to tweak thier strategy. Especially when it gets picked up by press they rely on to keep mindshare up. Remember, people are forgetful. If you're not getting good coverage they might just start to forget that you exist. Not a position any of them want to be in, ever. MSI is pretty big, but still smaller than Apple or Samsung. They are big enough to not be forgotten overnight, but definitely not big enough to not gradually lose ground.

I think they'll have to take it seriously. Better than nothing. Our powers as consumers are limited. Any victory we get is worth it. This like a shadow boycott. Any loss of sales is too much for any company. Not to mention risk of future losses. It's not going to start a revolution or anything but it may just lead to products and services from a big brand improving a little bit. Still good to keep em a little on thier toes. Ideally, that's what reviewers do. Consumers turn to them because they work for consumers to help them make better purchases. Anything that keeps that whole process a little more honest is good.

Totally understand why people don't have faith, but every now and then this kind of thing works and companies do respond with attempts to fix problems. More in the PC enthusiast world than I've seen in most other places, at times.
 
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Apple and Samsung's alleged slowing of phone's. Yet people still flock to buy their goods when they hit the shelves. MSI will be around for years to come.
Lol at alleged. :laugh:
And not everyone flocks to buy the latest and "greatest", only the brainwashed do that.
 
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There's only one conceivable reason why, in a negative thread about a company, someone would come along and post ridiculously positive things about one of that company's products. It's called astroturfing, and you're way too obvious.

So I'll ask again: how much is MSI paying you?
You might ask me why I am posting this? Because people have been bashing MSI quality as well, throughout entire thread and I wanted to offer some positive evidence of the quality of some of their high-end products, and that they do in fact make great products and excellent contributions to the overclocking/enthusiast market place.

Some people here seem to think what MSI did was sac religious or something, like MSI crossed an invisible line and the show is over with them, blacklisted, for good. People don't seem to realize that pretty much every hardware maker has made similar, if not identical, moves just like this. Intel, AMD, etc all have been accused and called out on similar behavior. This is nothing new in the industry. MSI is simply trying to compete in a cutthroat, competitive marketplace. To put this in perspective, there are literally hundreds of products on amazon.com where the seller offers an incentive/benefit/discount to leave a positive review. This practice goes on at a high level, and it's nothing new. Nobody here should be perturbed by this behavior. It's been going on for thousands of years -- ever since Eve sold Adam on the forbidden fruit ;)

I also like the balanced aesthetics MSI brings to the table. For example, the MSI Core Frozr 120mm air cooler offers an excellent balance between performance and aesthetics. And while not up to par with some of the super high end 120/140 mm air coolers, it still managed to hold my six core 9600KF at 5.0 GHz. I think the heat pipes look absolutely sick, as do the red colored fans relative to the grey housing. Offers an excellent contrast in color. Take a look at that heatpipe art work. Very impressive to say the least.

(other noctua setup in pic is a 120mm rad made by alphacool, which has a thickness of 80mm for something else) (and no, I don't work for Alphacool either) (Or Noctua, for that matter) (and, ironically, I don't work for techpowerup either... get it?)




And this begs another question... You seem to like to accuse people of being paid by MSI. Little bit trigger happy I see. I would counter you are just fishing around, or even you yourself may be here to manipulate the truth, perhaps you work for one of MSI's competitors? Going out and knocking their products -- lol wouldn’t be the first time something like that has happened. I recommend you point your tremendous powers of perception directly at something we all want to know – something that has remained a mystery up until this point at least. Why don't you ask Linus how much he paid for the giant life size red MSI dragon he has sitting in his office right now?



:) ROFL
 
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Why is that fascinating? If they asked for evidence, and were presented with evidence, would they be expected to stick around and deny that evidence?
They might, you know, stick around to acknowledge that the basis for the discussion has changed, making their previous stance untenable? There are options beyond clamming up or doubling down, you know. That was the entire point of my comment, that people questioning the credibility of this all of a sudden seemed to go *poof* when it was corroborated, rather than saying something to the point of "Okay, that's settled then" and continuing the debate from there. It's hard not to read this as somehow trying to save face or avoid embarassment - as if changing your opinion when presented with evidence is somehow embarassing...:kookoo:
Someone was bashing MSI pretty bad back there. So I posted the specs on my 5700XT Gaming x, so I wanted to relate my experience with the card is GOOD
Sorry, what? You saw a thread about a subject you knew nothing about, and decided to jump in to say "MSI MAKES GOOD PRODUCTS TOO"? Sorry, that doesn't add up. My guess: you saw a very negative thread about a company you have bought things from and been happy with. Rather than seeing these two things as entirely unrelated (which they are), you linked the two in your mind and immediately went on the defensive, as you then felt a strong need to justify your purchase of an MSI product to avoid some sort of perceived embarrassment from having somehow made a wrong decision. While fully understandable, this is a steaming heap of poorly managed irrational defensive psychological patterns: you are not your purchase decisions; you can't reasonably be held accountable for making a decision in the past that when presented with this new evidence might be reconsidered if it were to happen today; this debate isn't about customers or purchase decisions at all, but about MSI's ethical standards; this debate isn't about MSI's products either, but about MSI's ethical standards. Etc., etc.

The next time you see something like this and feel the urge to jump in, I would recommend you take a minute to think about why you are feeling the way you do. Chances are it has nothing to do with you whatsoever.
MSI seems to be improving a lot of their hardware, my MSI X570 Tomahawk for example is number 1 sought after mobo right now and for good reason. MSI I listened to all the complaints and fixed them. Competition is fierce, they got a little desperate on communication side of things. As long as they don't do it again I have no issue with them.
That is a woefully naive stance in light of GN's video. "As long as they don't do it again" - they have consistently been doing this for the better part of a decade. There is zero chance of them not repeating this pattern of behavior. Not to mention that this stance is effectively saying "whatever, now we know, but it shouldn't have any consequences". After all, you can't prove a negative, so there is no way to actually know that MSI hasn't done it again. They are well deserving of a period in the proverbial doghouse. IMO, MSI needs to address this publicly and directly, and promise to change their company culture. If not, I see no reason to expect it not to continue as it has up until now.
Okay, this thing needs a part-by-part breakdown:
You might ask me why I am posting this? Because people have been bashing MSI quality as well, throughout entire thread and I wanted to offer some positive evidence of the quality of some of their high-end products, and that they do in fact make great products and excellent contributions to the overclocking/enthusiast market place.
What you are demonstrating here is a fundamental misunderstanding of the topic. This came to light precisely because MSI has made and continues to make flawed products. There is nothing special about that - every company on earth that makes a product has made a flawed product. Perfection is impossible. But as I said, that isn't what this topic is about - it's about how MSI responds to criticism of their products. And their default response from this seems to be bribery, strong-arm tactics and other underhanded tactics to avoid bad PR, rather than actually fixing their flaws.

To be abundantly clear: whether or not MSI has made products with no major flaws is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
Some people here seem to think what MSI did was sac religious or something, like MSI crossed an invisible line and the show is over with them, blacklisted, for good. People don't seem to realize that pretty much every hardware maker has made similar, if not identical, moves just like this. Intel, AMD, etc all have been accused and called out on similar behavior. This is nothing new in the industry. MSI is simply trying to compete in a cutthroat, competitive marketplace. To put this in perspective, there are literally hundreds of products on amazon.com where the seller offers an incentive/benefit/discount to leave a positive review. This practice goes on at a high level, and it's nothing new. Nobody here should be perturbed by this behavior. It's been going on for thousands of years -- ever since Eve sold Adam on the forbidden fruit ;)
Nobody here is saying this is new and unheard of. But there have been thorough and well-formulated arguments posted previously in this thread addressing why accepting this as "just the way things work" is a deeply problematic stance. Go back and read those, please. If you want the PC component industry to be a healthy industry where product quality improves over time and components succeed on their merits rather than their marketing, evidence of actions like these should matter to you. If not, then you are effectively saying that you don't care if this industry goes to shit and component quality drops. But if that's the case, what are you doing on forums like these?

I also like the balanced aesthetics MSI brings to the table. For example, the MSI Core Frozr 120mm air cooler offers an excellent balance between performance and aesthetics. And while not up to par with some of the super high end 120/140 mm air coolers, it still managed to hold my six core 9600KF at 5.0 GHz. I think the heat pipes look absolutely sick, as do the red colored fans relative to the grey housing. Offers an excellent contrast in color. Take a look at that heatpipe art work. Very impressive to say the least.

(other noctua setup in pic is a 120mm rad made by alphacool, which has a thickness of 80mm for something else) (and no, I don't work for Alphacool either) (Or Noctua, for that matter) (and, ironically, I don't work for techpowerup either... get it?)


... and how is this at all relevant to the discussion? Seriously, I'm asking. Please try to put into words how this is relevant to this thread. You have been challenged.

And this begs another question... You seem to like to accuse people of being paid by MSI. Little bit trigger happy I see. I would counter you are just fishing around, or even you yourself may be here to manipulate the truth, perhaps you work for one of MSI's competitors? Going out and knocking their products -- lol wouldn’t be the first time something like that has happened. I recommend you point your tremendous powers of perception directly at something we all want to know – something that has remained a mystery up until this point at least. Why don't you ask Linus how much he paid for the giant life size red MSI dragon he has sitting in his office right now?



:) ROFL
While not the worst example in the world, you're trying to take a cheap shot here rather than actually arguing for anything. Linus has over the years made quite a few videos addressing this subject and related ones. As have many other tech 'tubers. Surrounding yourself with branded merch is pretty much par for the course for these people, as it's ultimately a "mandatory" part of the "tech youtuber" aesthetic that is necessary to attain any sort of success in this field today. I'd also ask you this: when was the last time you saw that dragon in one of their videos? I sure haven't seen that for quite a while. The point being: unless it's prominently placed and frequently seen, it's ultimately irrelevant. Sure, it amounts to an ad, but of the "subliminal messaging" kind that attempts to subtly influence which brands people think of rather than directly selling a product. In the sea of branded merchandise seen in LTT's studios, this barely stands out. For this to be any type of egregious, it would need to be part of a pattern of prominent placement of MSI logos and products in many if not all LTT videos. That isn't happening. So while it's a bit weird to have a huge 2-meter-tall ad in your studio, ultimately it's not that problematic. (On the other hand, if said ad was a roll-up advertising a specific MSI product, that would be problematic due to its specificity - unless they disclosed that the video was sponsored by MSI, of course.
 
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They might, you know, stick around to acknowledge that the basis for the discussion has changed, making their previous stance untenable? There are options beyond clamming up or doubling down, you know. That was the entire point of my comment, that people questioning the credibility of this all of a sudden seemed to go *poof* when it was corroborated, rather than saying something to the point of "Okay, that's settled then" and continuing the debate from there. It's hard not to read this as somehow trying to save face or avoid embarassment - as if changing your opinion when presented with evidence is somehow embarassing...:kookoo:

Sorry, what? You saw a thread about a subject you knew nothing about, and decided to jump in to say "MSI MAKES GOOD PRODUCTS TOO"? Sorry, that doesn't add up. My guess: you saw a very negative thread about a company you have bought things from and been happy with. Rather than seeing these two things as entirely unrelated (which they are), you linked the two in your mind and immediately went on the defensive, as you then felt a strong need to justify your purchase of an MSI product to avoid some sort of perceived embarrassment from having somehow made a wrong decision. While fully understandable, this is a steaming heap of poorly managed irrational defensive psychological patterns: you are not your purchase decisions; you can't reasonably be held accountable for making a decision in the past that when presented with this new evidence might be reconsidered if it were to happen today; this debate isn't about customers or purchase decisions at all, but about MSI's ethical standards; this debate isn't about MSI's products either, but about MSI's ethical standards. Etc., etc.

The next time you see something like this and feel the urge to jump in, I would recommend you take a minute to think about why you are feeling the way you do. Chances are it has nothing to do with you whatsoever.

That is a woefully naive stance in light of GN's video. "As long as they don't do it again" - they have consistently been doing this for the better part of a decade. There is zero chance of them not repeating this pattern of behavior. Not to mention that this stance is effectively saying "whatever, now we know, but it shouldn't have any consequences". After all, you can't prove a negative, so there is no way to actually know that MSI hasn't done it again. They are well deserving of a period in the proverbial doghouse. IMO, MSI needs to address this publicly and directly, and promise to change their company culture. If not, I see no reason to expect it not to continue as it has up until now.

Okay, this thing needs a part-by-part breakdown:

What you are demonstrating here is a fundamental misunderstanding of the topic. This came to light precisely because MSI has made and continues to make flawed products. There is nothing special about that - every company on earth that makes a product has made a flawed product. Perfection is impossible. But as I said, that isn't what this topic is about - it's about how MSI responds to criticism of their products. And their default response from this seems to be bribery, strong-arm tactics and other underhanded tactics to avoid bad PR, rather than actually fixing their flaws.

To be abundantly clear: whether or not MSI has made products with no major flaws is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

Nobody here is saying this is new and unheard of. But there have been thorough and well-formulated arguments posted previously in this thread addressing why accepting this as "just the way things work" is a deeply problematic stance. Go back and read those, please. If you want the PC component industry to be a healthy industry where product quality improves over time and components succeed on their merits rather than their marketing, evidence of actions like these should matter to you. If not, then you are effectively saying that you don't care if this industry goes to shit and component quality drops. But if that's the case, what are you doing on forums like these?


... and how is this at all relevant to the discussion? Seriously, I'm asking. Please try to put into words how this is relevant to this thread. You have been challenged.


While not the worst example in the world, you're trying to take a cheap shot here rather than actually arguing for anything. Linus has over the years made quite a few videos addressing this subject and related ones. As have many other tech 'tubers. Surrounding yourself with branded merch is pretty much par for the course for these people, as it's ultimately a "mandatory" part of the "tech youtuber" aesthetic that is necessary to attain any sort of success in this field today. I'd also ask you this: when was the last time you saw that dragon in one of their videos? I sure haven't seen that for quite a while. The point being: unless it's prominently placed and frequently seen, it's ultimately irrelevant. Sure, it amounts to an ad, but of the "subliminal messaging" kind that attempts to subtly influence which brands people think of rather than directly selling a product. In the sea of branded merchandise seen in LTT's studios, this barely stands out. For this to be any type of egregious, it would need to be part of a pattern of prominent placement of MSI logos and products in many if not all LTT videos. That isn't happening. So while it's a bit weird to have a huge 2-meter-tall ad in your studio, ultimately it's not that problematic. (On the other hand, if said ad was a roll-up advertising a specific MSI product, that would be problematic due to its specificity - unless they disclosed that the video was sponsored by MSI, of course.
Dude, I didnt have to watch the video to understand what went on there. LOL It was described in about three sentences at the top of the page. It's super simple: Every major tech brand/vendor/manufacturers do the exact same thing, not sure why you are not seeing this clearly.

I jumped on board because I did read numerous pages of the thread as well. Thats the whole point here: Contained within the thread are people bashing MSI quality, so I simply countered with positive feedback. Not sure why you are writing a book about it, this subject is a moot point anyway. But apparently, you like the bashing just not the good stuff. That's called a non level playing field, fyi.

... and how is this at all relevant to the discussion? Seriously, I'm asking. Please try to put into words how this is relevant to this thread. You have been challenged.
Seriously? Here goes...

People were bashing some MSI products... Get that? Some people were bashing MSI aesthetics, get that? I was responding to the negativity with a positive experience. Not sure why you are censoring the topic if it goes in the opposite direction of your intent for the thread. It's called a review, and it can be good or bad, in case you didn't know! And product experience. You can find thousands on amazon, and amazon does not censor reviews (or do they? good question...) If you chose to only deal with and nominate brutal attacks against a decent tech company, I suppose it's not worth wasting my time here.

Im showing people the MSI products that I like, and demonstrating their quality and looks - and why I like them. doesn't mean you have to go out and buy one, and sure it's applicable to the thread. People have been talking about specific hardware since page one, what I'm doing is no different. I'm especially excited about my next rig, which will have the very sick looking MSI MEG Z490 Unify under the hood. It will make for some sick overclocking, no doubt about that! Check out that VRM stack for starters. 400W TDP? No problem :) The top-tier 90A power stages really do make a difference. This motherboard also has some of the coolest running VRMs out of any Z490 Motherboard currently on the market.

1596359640394.png


While not the worst example in the world, you're trying to take a cheap shot here rather than actually arguing for anything. Linus has over the years made quite a few videos addressing this subject and related ones. As have many other tech 'tubers. Surrounding yourself with branded merch is pretty much par for the course for these people, as it's ultimately a "mandatory" part of the "tech youtuber" aesthetic that is necessary to attain any sort of success in this field today. I'd also ask you this: when was the last time you saw that dragon in one of their videos? I sure haven't seen that for quite a while. The point being: unless it's prominently placed and frequently seen, it's ultimately irrelevant. Sure, it amounts to an ad, but of the "subliminal messaging" kind that attempts to subtly influence which brands people think of rather than directly selling a product. In the sea of branded merchandise seen in LTT's studios, this barely stands out. For this to be any type of egregious, it would need to be part of a pattern of prominent placement of MSI logos and products in many if not all LTT videos. That isn't happening. So while it's a bit weird to have a huge 2-meter-tall ad in your studio, ultimately it's not that problematic. (On the other hand, if said ad was a roll-up advertising a specific MSI product, that would be problematic due to its specificity - unless they disclosed that the video was sponsored by MSI, of course.
Okay, well hopefully you are up for the challenge then! We will all be waiting with baited breath. BTW the video is still on youtube (
) and is still a fairly popular video, so it's out there and visible right now. Heck, I might have even watched that entire video myself at one point or another. Let's hope you can come back with good results since you are striking out round after round with your trigger finger accusations here (not directed to you personally, but to the people who thought because I posted something positive about MSI I must work for them. And then was slammed to the ground after realizing the data actually came from techpowerups personal review. Apparently, you guys really hate seeing positive reviews here for some reason and simply get your feathers ruffled when faced with direct opposition with people who like MSI products.

Yeah, I like MSI so I must work for them.

Brilliant logic :)

ROFL
 
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Must say I didn't see this becoming a Fanboys vs World thread
 
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People may forget, but MSI won't have the luxury. They will have to think twice next time, or run the risk of refreshing people's memories. To me it's enough that they will now have to be on their toes when it comes to dealing with reviewers, who now also have things to lose by associating with MSI. MSI clearly wants the reviews and can't lose them, and so will have to make some changes.

I get what you're saying though. People get all hopped up but in the end return to sort of buying against their best interests. Said it many times before and I'll say it again: people are generally terrible at dealing with anything beyond the present. Our minds simply aren't built for it - we reach the wrong conclusions. I myself do this. I know I do! It can't fully be avoided. But I still think that's not all that's at stake. The psychological component is still to be wrestled with and Apple and Samsung spend big money to stay on top. When they take hits like that, they may still get more than enough sales, but it will never be what it could've been.

They are in a vulnerable position where if a suitable competitor for any particular product pops up post-image-dip, people will subconsciously give it more consideration, which would normally not have been given had the pull of the big guy's reputation not been dealt blows. It does stick around and trickle, even if people stop talking about it and many still buy. And they don't just want good sales. They want to continually maximize and increase them. So they have to care at least a little. A loss is a loss, especially when we're dealing with bean counters. Not to mention, the second time around stings more.

The way I see it, consumers only stand to benefit by things like this happening. It directly puts some fire to MSI's asses and makes their competition more careful to not be next. Of course people would still buy from them, but at least they will have to tweak thier strategy. Especially when it gets picked up by press they rely on to keep mindshare up. Remember, people are forgetful. If you're not getting good coverage they might just start to forget that you exist. Not a position any of them want to be in, ever. MSI is pretty big, but still smaller than Apple or Samsung. They are big enough to not be forgotten overnight, but definitely not big enough to not gradually lose ground.

I think they'll have to take it seriously. Better than nothing. Our powers as consumers are limited. Any victory we get is worth it. This like a shadow boycott. Any loss of sales is too much for any company. Not to mention risk of future losses. It's not going to start a revolution or anything but it may just lead to products and services from a big brand improving a little bit. Still good to keep em a little on thier toes. Ideally, that's what reviewers do. Consumers turn to them because they work for consumers to help them make better purchases. Anything that keeps that whole process a little more honest is good.

Totally understand why people don't have faith, but every now and then this kind of thing works and companies do respond with attempts to fix problems. More in the PC enthusiast world than I've seen in most other places, at times.
People may forget, but MSI won't have the luxury. They will have to think twice next time, or run the risk of refreshing people's memories.
Really??. People seem to have forgotten what the others I mentioned in my last post did and still flock to buy their hardware. It's like a kind of Stockholm Syndrome and it will remain that way. Only a handful of buyers will go elswhere.

Said it many times before and I'll say it again: people are generally terrible at dealing with anything beyond the present. Our minds simply aren't built for it
Brand snob sheeple perhaps, but not not everyone thinks the same.

The way I see it, consumers only stand to benefit by things like this happening. It directly puts some fire to MSI's asses and makes their competition more careful to not be next.
Benfit how? Nothing will change, the marketing departments are up to their eyes in consumer psychology books and AI.
Replace the word consumer with customer and then I might just have some faith in their faux sincerity.

I think they'll have to take it seriously. Better than nothing. Our powers as consumers are limited. Any victory we get is worth it
Nah. They'll make a partial robotic apology like some of the others have in the past then it'll be back to business as usual. The only thing that will change any of their ways is when the consumer stops buying altogether. And in this day and age where many have no job to go back to it's looking highly likely sales will plummet for all of them.

Totally understand why people don't have faith, but every now and then this kind of thing works and companies do respond with attempts to fix problems.
Until the next scandal. Then the one after that, then the next one, and so on..........

Lol at alleged. :laugh:
And not everyone flocks to buy the latest and "greatest", only the brainwashed do that.
I try and tread carefully. Brain before keyboard rants :)

MSI seems to be improving a lot of their hardware, my MSI X570 Tomahawk for example is number 1 sought after mobo right now and for good reason. MSI I listened to all the complaints and fixed them. Competition is fierce, they got a little desperate on communication side of things. As long as they don't do it again I have no issue with them.
I've never had any bad hardware from them or any of the other big guns for that matter. I'd only have faith in MSI if they fixed their broken website.
 
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Dude, I didnt have to watch the video to understand what went on there. LOL It was described in about three sentences at the top of the page. It's super simple: Every major tech brand/vendor/manufacturers do the exact same thing, not sure why you are not seeing this clearly.
Wait, did I say anything to you about watching the video? Or are you taking on the responsibility of responding for everyone I quoted?

As to your argument here: asked and answered - quite eloquently - previously in this thread. Check out @robot zombie's posts.
I jumped on board because I did read numerous pages of the thread as well. Thats the whole point here: Contained within the thread are people bashing MSI quality, so I simply countered with positive feedback. Not sure why you are writing a book about it, this subject is a moot point anyway. But apparently, you like the bashing just not the good stuff. That's called a non level playing field, fyi.
So you missed the part where a moderator stepped in twice to clean up the off-topic back-and-forth bashing in this thread? Because that is what you are continuing here, not an on-topic discussion. To remind you, as it is clearly necessary at this point: this thread is about MSI's PR team attempting to suppress negative reviews through underhanded tactics. It is not in any way whatsoever about the quality (or lack thereof) of MSI's products. I made that pretty clear in my previous post:
To be abundantly clear: whether or not MSI has made products with no major flaws is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
Either you didn't read my post at all, you don't understand what this topic is about, or you are doubling down on an irrational defensive stance. Either way, please stop. You're not adding anything of value here.
Seriously? Here goes...

People were bashing some MSI products... Get that? Some people were bashing MSI aesthetics, get that? I was responding to the negativity with a positive experience. Not sure why you are censoring the topic if it goes in the opposite direction of your intent for the thread. It's called a review, and it can be good or bad, in case you didn't know! And product experience. You can find thousands on amazon, and amazon does not censor reviews (or do they? good question...) If you chose to only deal with and nominate brutal attacks against a decent tech company, I suppose it's not worth wasting my time here.
Again: this is fundamentally irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is not a "post your reviews of MSI products" thread. It is not a "what do you think of MSI as a company?" thread. It is a discussion of specific actions MSI has taken in a specific context, springing from but otherwise unrelated to specific products and their quality. And how exactly am I "censoring the topic"? By attempting to keep us actually discussing the topic at hand, rather than veering off into irrelevant and uninteresting back-and-forths about whether or not MSI has made/makes good products? This is not the topic of this thread, and again, a moderator has been here to clean up the other nonsense. You continuing it doesn't help anything.

Also, what am I "nominating"? For what? Is there an election or award related to this thread? As for "brutal attacks": beyond criticizing MSIs now thoroughly documented bad behavior, what exactly in my posts qualify as that? And isn't criticism of bad behavior warranted? I haven't commented on either side of this part of the debate; I purposely left it alone as it is - once again, with feeling now! - not relevant to the topic. It seems you entirely misunderstand why I am arguing against you: I'm not arguing against you because I believe that MSI makes bad quality products or something similar, I am arguing against you because what you are saying doesn't affect the topic of this thread. Your posts are in a similar vein to entering a topic discussing an accused criminal and saying "but look how handsome he is, and he's really good at playing CoD!"

As for MSI being a "decent tech company", I would argue that the actions brought to light here severely damage any claim they might have to decency.
Im showing people the MSI products that I like, and demonstrating their quality and looks - and why I like them. doesn't mean you have to go out and buy one, and sure it's applicable to the thread. People have been talking about specific hardware since page one, what I'm doing is no different. I'm especially excited about my next rig, which will have the very sick looking MSI MEG Z490 Unify under the hood. It will make for some sick overclocking, no doubt about that! Check out that VRM stack for starters. 400W TDP? No problem :) The top-tier 90A power stages really do make a difference. This motherboard also has some of the coolest running VRMs out of any Z490 Motherboard currently on the market.

View attachment 164305
Again: how is this relevant to how MSI PR treats reviewers? How does this reflect on the ethics of MSI as a company? Not at all.
Okay, well hopefully you are up for the challenge then! We will all be waiting with baited breath.
What challenge? Did you challenge me to do anything? Where? The only request or question I can see in your post is to "check out that VRM", which, yes, looks decent. I don't see how a decent VRM setup alleviates bad behavior though. Virtue ethics through PC hardware quality is not part of how I view the world, though it seems that is what you are arguing for.

BTW the video is still on youtube (
) and is still a fairly popular video, so it's out there and visible right now. Heck, I might have even watched that entire video myself at one point or another. Let's hope you can come back with good results since you are striking out round after round with your trigger finger accusations here (not directed to you personally, but to the people who thought because I posted something positive about MSI I must work for them. And then was slammed to the ground after realizing the data actually came from techpowerups personal review. Apparently, you guys really hate seeing positive reviews here for some reason and simply get your feathers ruffled when faced with direct opposition with people who like MSI products.
Did I say the video wasn't on YouTube? No. I just said it isn't particularly relevant. Why? Well, it's a livestream from 2018. I would guess it got >95% of its views in the first two weeks, and that the number of people watching it each week now can likely be counted on one hand. Livestreams tend to lose relevance far more quickly than more topical content, after all. As for "fairly popular video"? Their Dell XPS 15/17 video, posted 17 hours ago as I write this, has 66% of its views. Their video about a 40TB SSD from three days ago is nearing the same view count. Looking over their uploads, the majority of LTT videos posted in the past couple of weeks have >900k views. In other words, for an LTT video, this is entirely unremarkable in terms of popularity.

As for the rest of this: don't put words in my mouth. Yes, you come back with a "not directed to you personally" - well, then direct it at the people you intend it to be directed at. FFS. Everything else you write here is directed at me. This is just lazy.

And to repeat myself once again (really getting tired of this now ...): product quality, whether it be good or bad, is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. The only reason I'm singling out you in responding to you is that you are the only one still beating this long-dead, half-rotten, off-topic horse. Everyone else got their act together after the mods stepped in.
Yeah, I like MSI so I must work for them.
Brilliant logic :)

ROFL
Again: see above. Don't quote me if you're responding to someone else.
 
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Dude, I didnt have to watch the video to understand what went on there. LOL It was described in about three sentences at the top of the page. It's super simple: Every major tech brand/vendor/manufacturers do the exact same thing, not sure why you are not seeing this clearly.

I jumped on board because I did read numerous pages of the thread as well. Thats the whole point here: Contained within the thread are people bashing MSI quality, so I simply countered with positive feedback. Not sure why you are writing a book about it, this subject is a moot point anyway. But apparently, you like the bashing just not the good stuff. That's called a non level playing field, fyi.


Seriously? Here goes...

People were bashing some MSI products... Get that? Some people were bashing MSI aesthetics, get that? I was responding to the negativity with a positive experience. Not sure why you are censoring the topic if it goes in the opposite direction of your intent for the thread. It's called a review, and it can be good or bad, in case you didn't know! And product experience. You can find thousands on amazon, and amazon does not censor reviews (or do they? good question...) If you chose to only deal with and nominate brutal attacks against a decent tech company, I suppose it's not worth wasting my time here.

Im showing people the MSI products that I like, and demonstrating their quality and looks - and why I like them. doesn't mean you have to go out and buy one, and sure it's applicable to the thread. People have been talking about specific hardware since page one, what I'm doing is no different. I'm especially excited about my next rig, which will have the very sick looking MSI MEG Z490 Unify under the hood. It will make for some sick overclocking, no doubt about that! Check out that VRM stack for starters. 400W TDP? No problem :) The top-tier 90A power stages really do make a difference. This motherboard also has some of the coolest running VRMs out of any Z490 Motherboard currently on the market.

View attachment 164305



Okay, well hopefully you are up for the challenge then! We will all be waiting with baited breath. BTW the video is still on youtube (
) and is still a fairly popular video, so it's out there and visible right now. Heck, I might have even watched that entire video myself at one point or another. Let's hope you can come back with good results since you are striking out round after round with your trigger finger accusations here (not directed to you personally, but to the people who thought because I posted something positive about MSI I must work for them. And then was slammed to the ground after realizing the data actually came from techpowerups personal review. Apparently, you guys really hate seeing positive reviews here for some reason and simply get your feathers ruffled when faced with direct opposition with people who like MSI products.

Yeah, I like MSI so I must work for them.

Brilliant logic :)

ROFL
Whether you're merely an extremely stupid fanboy or a paid shill, it doesn't matter:

THIS.
THREAD.
IS.
NOT.
ABOUT.
MSI'S.
PRODUCTS.


It is about MSI's unethical practices in relation to hardware reviewers.

NONE of your posts have been relevant to that topic.

As such I have reported them and hope they will be removed ASAP.

A monkey throwing its poop would be a more useful contribution to this thread than your posts.
 
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Really??. People seem to have forgotten what the others I mentioned in my last post did and still flock to buy their hardware. It's like a kind of Stockholm Syndrome and it will remain that way. Only a handful of buyers will go elswhere.

Brand snob sheeple perhaps, but not not everyone thinks the same.

Benfit how? Nothing will change, the marketing departments are up to their eyes in consumer psychology books and AI.
Replace the word consumer with customer and then I might just have some faith in their faux sincerity.

Nah. They'll make a partial robotic apology like some of the others have in the past then it'll be back to business as usual. The only thing that will change any of their ways is when the consumer stops buying altogether. And in this day and age where many have no job to go back to it's looking highly likely sales will plummet for all of them.

Until the next scandal. Then the one after that, then the next one, and so on..........

I try and tread carefully. Brain before keyboard rants :)

I've never had any bad hardware from them or any of the other big guns for that matter. I'd only have faith in MSI if they fixed their broken website.
I don't think the two of you actually disagree all that much, though you do seem to differ in your degree of belief in "consumer power". The issue is, as you pretty much say, that "conscientious consumption" changing anything at all is a pure myth. AFAIK the only large-scale boycott to ever (significantly contribute to) achieve(ing) its goals was the anti-apartheid boycott of South Africa. Beyond that, it's barely a drop in the bucket. This kerfuffle certainly isn't going to lead to coordinated consumer action on a scale significant enough to change MSI's company culture.

Other things can effect this change, though: press attention and regulation/litigation. While this doesn't amount to outright anticompetitive behavior, it is nonetheless under the jurisdiction of agencies like the US FTC. Of course they are entirely ineffectual after decades of being dismantled by "business-friendly" administrations, but that doesn't change the fact that they should be handling things like this. That's what we have governments for: to protect people in ways in which they are themselves powerless.

Still, I don't expect this to change much. But at least the attention might serve to push MSI slightly in a better direction. And even that is better than nothing.
 
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If anyone is curious, Linus charges around US$10,000 per video. This is not a recent figure, so maybe it's even more now.
 
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Whether you're merely an extremely stupid fanboy or a paid shill, it doesn't matter:

THIS.
THREAD.
IS.
NOT.
ABOUT.
MSI'S.
PRODUCTS.


It is about MSI's unethical practices in relation to hardware reviewers.

NONE of your posts have been relevant to that topic.

As such I have reported them and hope they will be removed ASAP.

A monkey throwing its poop would be a more useful contribution to this thread than your posts.
The relevant topic is not relevant. Get it now? Make sense? They all do it, this is old news, your about 4000 years late to the game my friend.
 
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If anyone is curious, Linus charges around US$10,000 per video. This is not a recent figure, so maybe it's even more now.
Not surprising. He/they tend(s) to be pretty clear about what is and what isn't a sponsored video though, as well as typically avoiding sounding like outright shills even in sponsored videos. I definitely find GN's approach better, but you can't deny that LTT beats them hands down when it comes to polish and entertainment value. Each has their place, but one should also obviously be conscious of which of the two one lets inform ones opinions the most.
The relevant topic is not relevant. Get it now? Make sense? They all do it, this is old news, your about 4000 years late to the game my friend.
"Knowing" something to be common practice and being presented with specific evidence of this are not the same thing. One is an assumption (mostly) without proof, possibly based on previous evidence, but at best a generalization without real basis in fact. The other is a factual event or series of events. It should be obvious that the former can't actually be acted on without significant resources (such as an investigative team, lawyers, etc., which I assume none of us have access to), while the latter could and should be acted upon. If not, you are for all intents and purposes condoning said behavior. And, as both I've said and GN was quite clear on in this video: this is behavior that hurts the PC industry, hurts end users, and doesn't even really gain MSI in the long run. I get that one can become jaded by repeated showings of bad practices by various industry actors (hello, Intel, MS, Nvidia, etc.!), but at best your response reads as fatalism, and at worst (which IMO is the more accurate reading of your posts) apologism and arguing that as long as some of their products are good their other actions are of no importance.
 
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They might, you know, stick around to acknowledge that the basis for the discussion has changed, making their previous stance untenable? There are options beyond clamming up or doubling down, you know. That was the entire point of my comment, that people questioning the credibility of this all of a sudden seemed to go *poof* when it was corroborated, rather than saying something to the point of "Okay, that's settled then" and continuing the debate from there. It's hard not to read this as somehow trying to save face or avoid embarassment - as if changing your opinion when presented with evidence is somehow embarassing...:kookoo:
Nobody wants to be proven wrong and yes, in many cases it is embarrassing - especially if the true facts were easily verifiable. I don't find that fascinating. I see that as human nature.

What is fascinating to me (and it certainly is not limited to this thread) is how some, once shown definitive proof, refuse to accept or even acknowledge it. Many will continue to post total, unsubstantiated falsehoods. And they do so for 1 of 2 reasons. (1) They refuse to accept they could possibly be wrong and/or (2) they have engrained prejudices and biases against the company, person, country, etc. For example, some on this site will bash Microsoft or Intel any and every chance they get simply because they don't like those companies. Even when the subject has nothing to do with Microsoft (or Bill Gates) or Intel. Even if the "crime" :rolleyes: :kookoo: they are accused of is totally made up. They even make their own false claims - assuming all will believe them and not do our own research to verify the facts. We see this all the time here.

And worse, when provided proof they cannot refute, instead of debating the facts (or admitting they were wrong) , some launch into personal and puerile tirades against the other poster.
nor would I defend any other company tech related or otherwise.
If you see an injustice, you won't step up to defend against it?

I do and will defend any company (or person) who is falsely accused! Take Microsoft again. There are some on this site who automatically trash every MS product or policy, often with totally false claims, simply because they "don't trust Microsoft". Microsoft has done plenty genuinely offensive, stupid, misleading and shady stuff that they don't need anyone to make up false offensives. So I will defend MS when falsely accused, as I will Intel or anyone else. And then what happens? It often degrades with personal and puerile comments instead of presenting substantiating facts.
If anyone is curious, Linus charges around US$10,000 per video.
Oh? Got a link? I can't find any. Who is he charging? Are you claiming he charges companies to produce reviews? Is that what you are saying?

I don't think it is about what he charges, I think it is about what he "earns". And his videos "earn" about $10,000/day - but that is through viewers watching his videos. The more views, the more sponsors pay. And in his case, many of his videos have direct advertising at the end of his videos, just as a print magazine or TV show would have "ads" and "commercials". That is standard operating procedure and is NOT a reflection, one way or another, on the results of the review. That's generally how it works - as seen here.

****

Back to the topic of bad company behavior.

I had a 4 year old Gigabyte motherboard fail due to cheap, inferior, leaky caps. Gigabyte replaced the board for free even though the 3-year warranty expired. I like Gigabyte. I will continue to buy Gigabyte.

I've used several different MSI motherboards and graphics cards over the years - with no problems. But now with this evidence of "recurring" bad behavior by the company, I don't like MSI. I likely will not buy MSI until I see things change.
 
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Nobody wants to be proven wrong and yes, in many cases it is embarrassing - especially if the true facts were easily verifiable. I don't find that fascinating. I see that as human nature.

What is fascinating to me (and it certainly is not limited to this thread) is how some, once shown definitive proof, refuse to accept or even acknowledge it. Many will continue to post total, unsubstantiated falsehoods. And they do so for 1 of 2 reasons. (1) They refuse to accept they could possibly be wrong and/or (2) they have engrained prejudices and biases against the company, person, country, etc. For example, some on this site will bash Microsoft or Intel any and every chance they get simply because they don't like those companies. Even when the subject has nothing to do with Microsoft (or Bill Gates) or Intel. Even if the "crime" :rolleyes: :kookoo: they are accused of is totally made up. They even make their own false claims - assuming all will believe them and not do our own research to verify the facts. We see this all the time here.

And worse, when provided proof they cannot refute, instead of debating the facts (or admitting they were wrong) , some launch into personal and puerile tirades against the other poster.
Well, "human nature" is highly debatable. Saying that is essentially just a fatalist response, saying people can't be better than knee-jerk responses. I don't believe that even for a minute. Sure, it's (a lot!) more difficult to admit you're wrong than to keep arguing or just go silent. But that is also why admitting fault actually says something about one's character - and why failing to do so thus says something in the opposite direction. One might say something about emotional maturity and so on here, but I'll just leave it at that. But there's hardly anything at all that can be called "human nature". There are behaviors that are easier than others to achieve, but that doesn't make them any more or less natural to us. Heck, given how we humans live these days, I'd say there are very few "natural" things about us beyond sleeping, breathing, eating and s*****ng. The rest is human culture.

And I agree that the doubling down on biases and falsehoods holds its own fascination - I'm quite fond of arguments like that precisely because they utterly fascinate me. I'm by no means free of biases, semi-conscious beliefs or even irrational yet conscious beliefs, but at least I try to know myself enough to actually identify those when they kick in. Some people seem to entirely lack that ability. Hatred of MS is a classic, hatred of Intel is indeed similar (though there are IMO more and better reasons to dislike Intel - but dislike or being consistently critical of someone isn't hatred, and definitely shouldn't lead to off-topic bashing!). Apple too, to a degree. Of course this also works in reverse; a lot of people have such an irrational adoration for something, or have an antagonism towards a specific line of argumentation that they bring it up and argue in defense of something that nobody else has even mentioned.
 
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If you see an injustice, you won't step up to defend against it?

I do and will defend any company (or person) who is falsely accused! Take Microsoft again. There are some on this site who automatically trash every MS product or policy, often with totally false claims, simply because they "don't trust Microsoft". Microsoft has done plenty genuinely offensive, stupid, misleading and shady stuff that they don't need anyone to make up false offensives. So I will defend MS when falsely accused, as I will Intel or anyone else. And then what happens? It often degrades with personal and puerile comments instead of presenting substantiating facts.
No. I see no difference between them when it comes to business ethics.

I've used several different MSI motherboards and graphics cards over the years - with no problems. But now with this evidence of "recurring" bad behavior by the company, I don't like MSI. I likely will not buy MSI until I see things change.
Just put some tape over the MSI logo. I doubt you'll notice after a while. :)
And when the next scandal arrives, be sure to do the same with other brands you own. :)
 
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