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My 4770k delid video (IHS removal)

Ketxxx

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1. Well it is offiically the enthusiast platform. Socket 115X is the mainstream platform. And yes, performance wise 2011 still is the best.

2. Of course £44 isn't $45 but it is close enough, its 4AM here and I'm too lazy to do the conversion or type the alt code. And technically, the laser cutting would remove part of the silicon, so technically what I'm actually receiving in terms of physical product would be less with a non-K product...if you really want to be technical. However, the process of locking/unlocking the processor that Intel does isn't simply laser locking. After the CPU is binned, the information detailing clock speed, locked or unlocked status, cache availability, HT function, and model number are all laser hardcoded into the CPU. All the processors go through this step, it isn't skipped on unlocked processor because at the very least their clock speeds and model information still need to be set. And going way back to the Athlon XP days, Intel's unlocked processors were all extreme edition processors, and the price premium was usually $700-800 because they usually cost $1000 or more. And there were no official unlocked Athlon XPs, to get an Athlon XP with an unlocked multiplier you had to do a physical mod to the processor.

1. Just because something carries the word "official" it doesn't make it true. I wasn't (and still aren't) talking about which platform gives you the most performance, I covered that. I am talking about which platforms is the most technologically advanced, again thats Z77 and Z87, not skt 2011.

2. Intel still sell EE CPUs with a massive 600-1000 premium so your point there is moot. The K series just allowed intel to bat the ball closer to what AMD do, but my point here, and always has been (probably my fault for not clarifying better I get wrapped up in details too much for my own good sometimes) that the K series at a £44 premium is still too much when intel don't even offer a enthusiast friendly warranty with the K series CPUs, by which I mean your warranty isn't void if you OC a K series CPU. Last I read even with K CPUs if you OC them intel say your warranty is void.
 

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1. See my other post, I say right there even way back in the Athlon XP days the difference between unlocked and locked was only about £20.

2. I'm not talking about power consumption directly (though if I recall due to the flow of electrons a small but noticeable increase in power can be measured between a component that runs cooler then that same component under the same conditions running hotter. As can power consumption vary depending on leakage of a component.) What I am directly talking about is how for very little extra current modern components with nothing more than a properly designed cooling solution can run much cooler which is just good all round. For example; On my 7950 I dropped VRM temps from a horrific 95c+ (stock) under full load down to a max of 78c (with OC) by doing nothing more than designing and fitting a proper VRM heatsink instead of just a small slab of metal across the VRMs.

3. To date I've had 3 CPUs with TIM under the IHS cause me problems (twice that amount if I count friends CPUs I've had to delid due to TIM breaking down and causing problems), and 1 CPU thats had a soldered IHS cause me issue, so yes, your quite right I'm living proof - of the fact that CPUs with TIM under their IHS are quite a bit more likely to cause problems.

1. See my post, you're wrong.

2. Sure, for a small cost it could run cooler, a small cost across millions of products that adds up to a huge cost, that has no affect on the life or intended function of the product.

3. And yet I haven't had a single processor with TIM cause me problems, and neither have millions of other people. Odd...

1. Just because something carries the word "official" it doesn't make it true. I wasn't (and still aren't) talking about which platform gives you the most performance, I covered that. I am talking about which platforms is the most technologically advanced, again thats Z77 and Z87, not skt 2011.

2. Intel still sell EE CPUs with a massive 600-1000 premium so your point there is moot. The K series just allowed intel to bat the ball closer to what AMD do, but my point here, and always has been (probably my fault for not clarifying better I get wrapped up in details too much for my own good sometimes) that the K series at a £44 premium is still too much when intel don't even offer a enthusiast friendly warranty with the K series CPUs, by which I mean your warranty isn't void if you OC a K series CPU. Last I read even with K CPUs if you OC them intel say your warranty is void.

1. Just because it is more technologically advanced does mean it provides the best performance. Enthusiasts are after performance, overclockers are after performance, Socket 2011 is for enthusiasts socket 115X is for mainstream users.

2. I don't see how the fact that Intel still selling extreme edition processor make the point that an unlocked multiplier very recently carried a $7-800 price premium moot. And the warranty doesn't matter, again an real enthusiast knows that. We didn't have warranties for overclocking back then, even with the $1000 unlocked Extreme processors. No enthusiast would be bitching about a warranty... "OMG, the warranty should cover overclocking!" - Said no enthusiast ever.
 
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You seem to have a relatively high failure rate of CPUs; what the hell are you doing with them? :laugh: I haven't had a CPU die since my old Cyrix, and I have overclocked pretty much all my processors.


Rest assured that ALL modern electronics from these companies would have to pass intensive and extensive QA tests.

And yet I haven't had a single processor with TIM cause me problems, and neither have millions of other people. Odd...

I really don't think this is a manufacturing a defect; this seems to be user error. The chances of having the same person with multiple failures (with proper usage) is extremely slim or otherwise there would be many more posts of this topic.
 
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I would never de-lid a cpu I couldn't afford to replace, I guess that is the difference twixt a enthusiast and a user. The enthusiast will do it knowing they will just buy another one if they break it, were as a normal bod wouldn't dream of it.

Believe me If I was loaded I would just buy 2 cpu's and feck about with the first one, knowing full well if I bust it, I can just pop the other one in.

Does anyone know how many cpu's them ln2 nutters break attempting their records?

Lets face it, a cpu used under normal running guidelines/usage will probably last for years, we all have a 5/10yr old cpu lying around that still works fine.
 
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Does anyone know how many cpu's them ln2 nutters break attempting their records?

You make a good point. He didn't ever define his overclocks that killed the CPUs. Maybe he's running them at >1.5V. That would definitely cause quick failures.
 

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I really don't think this is a manufacturing a defect; this seems to be user error. The chances of having the same person with multiple failures (with proper usage) is extremely slim or otherwise there would be many more posts of this topic.

I have run all of my CPUs in a well ventilated NZXT Apollo using either a Coolermaster Hyper 212 Plus or a CoolIT ECO unit. Cooling has not been the issue here at all - purely related to the TIM used under the IHS. As for my friends, they don't even OC just buy decent grade gear and I've still had to end up popping the IHS on their CPUs at a period of anywhere between 1 - 3 years. Thats not coincidence.
 

Ketxxx

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You make a good point. He didn't ever define his overclocks that killed the CPUs. Maybe he's running them at >1.5V. That would definitely cause quick failures.

If by "he" you mean me, my personal (and only actual death of a CPU) was my 2500k. The voltages run through that were never extreme, about 1.38v for 4.5GHz. Its all good speculating, but you could of just asked :p
 
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I have run all of my CPUs in a well ventilated NZXT Apollo using either a Coolermaster Hyper 212 Plus or a CoolIT ECO unit. Cooling has not been the issue here at all - purely related to the TIM used under the IHS. As for my friends, they don't even OC just buy decent grade gear and I've still had to end up popping the IHS on their CPUs at a period of anywhere between 1 - 3 years. Thats not coincidence.

Are you sure that you didn't just need to replace the TIM between the processor and the heatsink? That would reduce temperatures and cheap thermal paste has been known to dry out. Thermal paste under the IHS on the other hand... I've never heard of anyone needing to replace it before your posts. And the Phenom II you delidded - I thought that all Phenom II's were soldered.
 
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I've run a e6300 at 1.57v on air and it survived to tell the tale. :D

That's a 65nm processor though; the 32nm/22nm processors have been known to have durability problems running 24/7 at 1.4V at higher temperatures.
 

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Are you sure that you didn't just need to replace the TIM between the processor and the heatsink? That would reduce temperatures and cheap thermal paste has been known to dry out. Thermal paste under the IHS on the other hand... I've never heard of anyone needing to replace it before your posts. And the Phenom II you delidded - I thought that all Phenom II's were soldered.

That 2500k had AS Ceramique sitting between it and the cooler, so yes, it was good TIM. I dunno, I pop IHS' for fun, serve as technician and direct line to Asrock if anyone gets issues with their asrock mainboard, make custom VRM heatsinks and a multitude of other things and you thought I wouldn't use / know good TIMs from bad? I'll let you off as I haven't been around here until recently for some years :p As for the Phenom, I dunno if they were supposed to be soldered or not but mine wasn't I didn't even bother checking I saw the symptoms and instantly knew it must be TIM between the core and IHS, unsurprisingly it was. Sad truth is intel / AMD don't even use good TIM, if they did temps would be quite a bit better thats why so many people record such huge temp drops when popping IHS'. 10c or more temp drop doesn't happen just because of a 0.006mm gap made by the IHS sealant.
 
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That 2500k had AS Ceramique sitting between it and the cooler, so yes, it was good TIM. I dunno, I pop IHS' for fun, serve as technician and direct line to Asrock if anyone gets issues with their asrock mainboard, make custom VRM heatsinks and a multitude of other things and you thought I wouldn't use / know good TIMs from bad? I'll let you off as I haven't been around here until recently for some years :p As for the Phenom, I dunno if they were supposed to be soldered or not but mine wasn't I didn't even bother checking I saw the symptoms and instantly knew it must be TIM between the core and IHS, unsurprisingly it was. Sad truth is intel / AMD don't even use good TIM, if they did temps would be quite a bit better thats why so many people record such huge temp drops when popping IHS'. 10c or more temp drop doesn't happen just because of a 0.006mm gap made by the IHS sealant.

Please do not read my posts as if I am insulting you. I am solely curious as to why you are having bad experiences with multiple processors while there are no other cases on these forums attributing processor failure to the presence of paste versus solder between the CPU and IHS.

From a scientific point of view I would like to know your failure rate - how many processors do you test that versus the number of failures. Also, I am curious about other confounding variables. For example, if you maintained at least one other common component in the system (presumably the power supply) then that could be causing all the failures. Or maybe the failures even can come down to static electricity if you live in an especially dry place.

I'm also there are no comparison of the same die soldered versus using TIM paste having different failure rates. Maybe this failure rate is due to the design of the core rather than the TIM. I don't doubt that solder is better for reliability than TIM paste, but I do doubt that the difference is statistically significant.

Also, the reduction in TIM thickness by removing the sealant during delidding is much greater than the 0.006mm you stated. It's more like 0.09mm, which is significant. See http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34053183&postcount=570.

Edit: Also see http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34059601&postcount=579 showing that the IHS itself doesn't provide a large thermal barrier; the thickness of the TIM is the largest variable in processor temperature.
 
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Lets face it, a cpu used under normal running guidelines/usage will probably last for years, we all have a 5/10yr old cpu lying around that still works fine.

Try older :p I booted up my 1988 Amstrad PC1640 HD 20, yesterday. Still works fine! :cool: Ah! Seeing that GEM GUI brought back memories. My very first PC.
 
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Well my thread have gone to another place ! I like it ;)

I also think that K series proc should be soldered ... They are sold as "overclocking" porcessor after all !
 

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Well my thread have gone to another place ! I like it ;)

I also think that K series proc should be soldered ... They are sold as "overclocking" porcessor after all !

And they overclock just fine, not great, but good enough.
 
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^ THIS!
they know their CPUs are gonna fail in 5years, so they dont risk it failing in 3 years and use TIM so that people delidd and void their warranties.
intel is all about making money now.

Isn't this a little extreme? I still have an original Pentium 166MHz OC'd to 200MHz that's running in my father's office, that little fella has been running for a little over 15 years without a hitch.

In all my years building PCs I've never seen a single CPU fail (and I began over 20 years ago), and I started OCing my procs since that Pentium I referred to above.

Now, I'm not arguing that Intel is being cheap here by using bad TIM for their latest procs, cause any enthusiast can see that, however, saying that they purposely design their procs to fail in an X amount of time, forcing ppl to break their warranties by de-liding their processors is bordering on paranoia.

Just think about that statement for a moment, out of millions and millions of processors Intel sells a year, how many do you think will get to be OC'd to over 5GHz? 10%? 1%? I bet you it's not even close to 0.0001%

Now you're saying that all those millions of processors are going to fail in 5 years, give or take? If that were the case, Intel would be facing a lawsuit of biblical proportions down the road, on a global scale, mind you.

Do you honestly think Intel caters to us enthusiasts? Think again, that is obviously not the case. Are they being greedy by saving a few cents in TIM? You bet they are, but they are not stupid either... unfortunately that's how capitalism works, and all corporations are out to make a profit, and if Intel can save $0.03 on every chip sold, and alienate a few enthusiasts by doing so, of course the choice is obvious.

Truth is enthusiasts, in Intel's eyes are a dying breed, and Broadwell may not even be sold as a stand alone processor anymore, and unless AMD don't step up to the plate, our days are counted indeed :(
 
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intel is too cheap to spend money on good TIM or Soldering it seems. or they are doing it on purpose so that people void their warranty and intel doesnt have to offer replacements, for CPUs for which they are sure wont last 3years ??

Intel's mainstream platform was likely too good for most people compared to LGA 2011 back in the 2xxx days, so they nerfed it. Ivy Bridge HEDT will be soldered, so there isn't any reason why they couldn't do so with the mainstream 3xxx/4xxx socket 115x chips. Temps aren't bad at 4.2GHz but once you have to add lots of voltage, it's game over.

Sounds like neither of you guys truly know why they used TIM on Ivy and Haswell.
 
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Sounds like neither of you guys truly know why they used TIM on Ivy and Haswell.

Well its not like there are many reasonable explanations.

Either they use solder or TIM based on the chip's TDP or Ivy and Haswell die is too small to apply a fluxless solder :toast:
 
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For 99% of the users the difference will not kill the processor any faster, that is why they went with the cheaper TIM method instead of solder. The decision has nothing to do with shortening the products life.

Yea, a bit silly to start going all conspiracy theory, about something that makes total sense..
so after u take the lid off, you put new tim on and put the lid back on?
 

Gruffalo.Soldier

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Yea, a bit silly to start going all conspiracy theory, about something that makes total sense..
so after u take the lid off, you put new tim on and put the lid back on?

you put the chip in the socket with the ihs on top and close the gate, I think some people use some sort of gunk to stick it back on.
 
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Most of the temperature issues are a result of too much silicon "glue" that keeps the IHS attached to the PCB, not the TIM itself, though higher quality TIM will yield a bit better result.
 
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Most of the temperature issues are a result of too much silicon "glue" that keeps the IHS attached to the PCB, not the TIM itself, though higher quality TIM will yield a bit better result.

+1

You need to remova ALL the black glue, this is usually the main issue.

I will do further testing with a variety of paste under the IHS later.
 
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** Waiting som liquid pro and ultra TIM for better results :) **

Nice video, we got lazy and didn't go through the whole process to make one.

We used the liquid pro TIM, stuff is kinda cool, little bit of a pain to work with.
I'm still not sure we have a good contact and are still considering lapping the cpu.

Out temp difference full load 1.25v 4.2ghz had a 16c difference.

This is on a 360 rad 30dpi, heatkiller block, d5 pump and a big dual bay res. I'm under the impression there is no heatsoak in this system beyond the pump heating up.
 
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Nice video, we got lazy and didn't go through the whole process to make one.

We used the liquid pro TIM, stuff is kinda cool, little bit of a pain to work with.
I'm still not sure we have a good contact and are still considering lapping the cpu.

Out temp difference full load 1.25v 4.2ghz had a 16c difference.

This is on a 360 rad 30dpi, heatkiller block, d5 pump and a big dual bay res. I'm under the impression there is no heatsoak in this system beyond the pump heating up.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I will also take a look at the IHS and lap it if needed, i have all the sandpaper need at home. I also borowed my GF nail vernish for the CPU ;)
 
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