• We've upgraded our forums. Please post any issues/requests in this thread.

My Killer NIC experience.

Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
4,659 (1.31/day)
Likes
1,009
System Name Obelisc
Processor i7 3770k @ 4.8 GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V
Cooling H110
Memory 16GB(4x4) @ 2400 MHz 9-11-11-31
Video Card(s) GTX 780 Ti
Storage 850 EVO 1TB, 2x 5TB Toshiba
Case T81
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD
Power Supply EVGA 850 T2 80+ TITANIUM
Software Win10 64bit
#1
Just thought I'd post my experience with the Killer NIC K1 for anyone thinking about picking one up, specifically anyone wondering what the effects are on a high-end system. I got the K1 (cheaper one) because it was on sale for $100 and literally the ONLY difference between it and the M1 is the core speed - 333 vs 400 mhz - and in reviews comparing the two there was zero performance difference.

Installation was easy, I used the latest beta drivers from the forum... something I'd recommend doing given how old the non-beta drivers are. I followed all the setting, OS, and router tweaks available on the forum to make sure I'm maximizing my performance. I have the card's firewall and bandwidth control features turned off to free up as much processing power as possible.

For the testing I went to Dalaran, the one place in WoW that seems to bring every pc down to 25-30 FPS. I had a nearby friend with nearly identical pc specs stand in the exact same spot as me facing the same direction. We both got identical framerates, but my ping was 32ms and his was 42ms. We repeated this 5 times at different points in the day, the gap was always 10ms. My ping prior to the card was the same as his, 42ms. I did not experience the "smooth" feeling reviewers reported, as everything was already as "smooth" as you could notice. I also tested Hellgate London but there was no noticeable difference, namely I still had inventory lag.

So to summarize, 10ms is the improvement you can expect on a high-end system. I'm sure the difference is much more noticeable on low end systems. Based on my experience with it I can recommend this for about 3 scenarios. If you're big on competitive FPS multiplayer gaming then 10 ms may very well improve your performance. If your pc is rather low end and struggles in places other than Dalaran then IF you can find it as cheaply as me it might be the most beneficial upgrade for you. Lastly, if you're like me and must offload as much as possible from the cpu for every scrap of performance... then this may appeal to you.
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,288 (5.51/day)
Likes
10,396
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 4790K@4.6GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z97 Extreme6
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR3-1866 9-10-9-27
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Corsair 650D Black
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#2
Most people that have used the Killer NIC pretty much agree that it doesn't really do anymore more than what any other $15 dedicated NIC would do.
 
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
2,165 (0.56/day)
Likes
361
Location
Wallingford, CT
Processor Intel i7-5930k
Motherboard ASRock Taichi X99
Cooling Phanteks PH-TC14PE
Memory 4x8GB HyperX FURY DDR4-2666 15-17-17-15
Video Card(s) MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X 8G
Storage 1x Plextor PX-512M6S SSD, 1x WD 750gb HDD, 2x Hitachi 2TB HDD, 1x Seagate 4TB HDD
Display(s) 2x Dell P2314H
Case Fractal Define R4
Audio Device(s) Onboard
Power Supply Corsair AX860i
Mouse ROCCAT Kone Pure Color White
Keyboard Corsair K95 RGB - Cherry MX Brown
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
#4
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
4,659 (1.31/day)
Likes
1,009
System Name Obelisc
Processor i7 3770k @ 4.8 GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V
Cooling H110
Memory 16GB(4x4) @ 2400 MHz 9-11-11-31
Video Card(s) GTX 780 Ti
Storage 850 EVO 1TB, 2x 5TB Toshiba
Case T81
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD
Power Supply EVGA 850 T2 80+ TITANIUM
Software Win10 64bit
#5
I believe I also stated I got the same ping as he did before I installed the card, the test with him was simply to make sure time of day wasn't a factor. We live on the same street and have the same provider which adds another level of similarity.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
4,435 (1.24/day)
Likes
733
Location
where everyone wants to be
System Name Everchanging
Processor Core i7 4790K
Motherboard ASUS ROG Maximus VII Hero
Cooling Custom loop
Memory 4x4GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 2800MHz 11-14-14-35
Video Card(s) 2xEVGA GTX 970 SSC
Storage SSD Main, 7TB backups
Display(s) Samsung 40" 4k UHD
Case Corsair 900D
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster thingy
Power Supply Enermax Revolution 85+ 1050w
Mouse Steel Series Sensi
Keyboard Thermaltake eSports Posiden Z Cherry Blues
Software Windows 10 x64
#6
Not to defend the thing, but another scenario in which the card could possibly be helpful is a slower internet connection. Don't know if they're still around, or if they operate with the same network cables or not, but ISDN (or is is IDSN). Or cable or DSL lines limited to lower transfer speeds, and on DSL the distance from the hub. There may be a use for it that makes it worth it, but from your experience and my guess is the reviews, the results don't justify the price.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
607 (0.14/day)
Likes
20
Location
Jacksonville ,Florida
System Name My Mistress :)'
Processor AMD ATHLON X2 6000+ @3.248 Mhz (F3 Windsor)
Motherboard ECS MCP61PM-AM
Cooling AIR THERMAL TAKE FANS AND SPEED FAN CONTROLED
Memory 3 GIG PC2 5300 SAMSUNG
Video Card(s) SAPPHIRE HD3650 512MB GDDR3 PCIE 904 GPU/999 MEM O/C
Storage WD 320GB /1 TB WD Essential USB 2.0 External
Display(s) ACER AL1751 LCD 1280 x 1024 17" DVI 6ms
Case GATEWAY GT SERIES ATX TOWER
Audio Device(s) REALTEK HD 7.1/LOGITECH Z-2300 2.1 THX SERIES
Power Supply COOL MASTER 500 WATTS
Software WINDOWS 7 64 bit Ultimate
Benchmark Scores I HAVENT DONE ANY YET
#7
wow $150-$250 for one of those is it even worth it?
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
4,659 (1.31/day)
Likes
1,009
System Name Obelisc
Processor i7 3770k @ 4.8 GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V
Cooling H110
Memory 16GB(4x4) @ 2400 MHz 9-11-11-31
Video Card(s) GTX 780 Ti
Storage 850 EVO 1TB, 2x 5TB Toshiba
Case T81
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD
Power Supply EVGA 850 T2 80+ TITANIUM
Software Win10 64bit
#8
Not to defend the thing, but another scenario in which the card could possibly be helpful is a slower internet connection. Don't know if they're still around, or if they operate with the same network cables or not, but ISDN (or is is IDSN). Or cable or DSL lines limited to lower transfer speeds, and on DSL the distance from the hub. There may be a use for it that makes it worth it, but from your experience and my guess is the reviews, the results don't justify the price.
On the support forum they seem to say it won't do much for a slow connection, some guy was even hoping it would lower his 1100ms ping on his satelite connection so he could game better.... obviously nothing is going to help that.

wow $150-$250 for one of those is it even worth it?
Like I said, I got it for $100, seeing as other reviews do show a marked improvement on low end systems it may be appropriate for that sale price for people with limited rigs.... at $150-$250 I can only recommend it for people who must have the absolute best of everything, price be damned. I got it because I had the cash laying around and wanted to know for myself. Certainly not hurting anything.
 

ZenEffect

New Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
622 (0.17/day)
Likes
83
#9
there is 1 big flaw i see in your testing methodology. you applied tweaks to your router and network settings when you installed the killer-nic, however you did not test the compared nic with the same tweaks. in my experience, i can gain 10ms by just editing my registry, so that 10ms you see may not be the nic at work. the network and router settings should be identical when comparing the 2 to get genuine results. also see if you can dump the bios/eeprom for that thing and put it on the net. it would be interesting to see a bios mod to oc it.

just my thoughts on this.
 
Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Messages
5,105 (1.33/day)
Likes
1,249
Location
Kansas
Processor Core i5 3570K
Motherboard AsRock z77 Pro4
Cooling Zalman CNPS10X Extreme
Memory 2x4GB GSkill Sniper
Video Card(s) MSI GTX970 Gaming
Storage 240GB OCZ ARC 100, Samsung Spinpoint F3 1TB
Display(s) LG 23" 1920x1080
Case Antec P100
Audio Device(s) Onboard
Power Supply Antec Edge 750W
Software Windows 8.1 Pro 64
#10
Sounds like the network equivalent of Monster cables.:laugh:
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
4,659 (1.31/day)
Likes
1,009
System Name Obelisc
Processor i7 3770k @ 4.8 GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V
Cooling H110
Memory 16GB(4x4) @ 2400 MHz 9-11-11-31
Video Card(s) GTX 780 Ti
Storage 850 EVO 1TB, 2x 5TB Toshiba
Case T81
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD
Power Supply EVGA 850 T2 80+ TITANIUM
Software Win10 64bit
#11
there is 1 big flaw i see in your testing methodology. you applied tweaks to your router and network settings when you installed the killer-nic, however you did not test the compared nic with the same tweaks. in my experience, i can gain 10ms by just editing my registry, so that 10ms you see may not be the nic at work. the network and router settings should be identical when comparing the 2 to get genuine results. also see if you can dump the bios/eeprom for that thing and put it on the net. it would be interesting to see a bios mod to oc it.

just my thoughts on this.
True, but only one tweak was not related to the settings of the card itself, and it's much more difficult to go from 40ms to 30ms than it is to go from say 200-150 ms. Which may bring up another scenario where the card would be more helpful.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
6,374 (1.54/day)
Likes
983
System Name ICE-QUAD // ICE-CRUNCH
Processor Q6600 // 2x Xeon 5472
Memory 2GB DDR // 8GB FB-DIMM
Video Card(s) HD3850-AGP // FireGL 3400
Display(s) 2 x Samsung 204Ts = 3200x1200
Audio Device(s) Audigy 2
Software Windows Server 2003 R2 as a Workstation now migrated to W10 with regrets.
#12
er, killer nic will improve the latency between your nic and your router. thats all. are you saying u have 10ms lag within your lan?
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
7,698 (1.91/day)
Likes
747
Processor i7-5820K
Motherboard Gigabyte X99-UD4
Cooling Corsair H100i
Memory 16GB Crucial DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) Asus Strix GTX 1070
Storage 240GB HyperX 3k, 500GB Samsung 850EVO, 2x WD Black 640gb, WD Black 1TB, Seagate 10TB
Display(s) 2x BenQ 24" 1920x1080
Case BitFenix Ghost
Audio Device(s) Focusrite Saffire PRO 14 -> DBX DriveRack PA+ -> Mackie MR8 and MR10 / Corsair Vengeance 2100
Power Supply Corsair RM1000i
Mouse Logitech G500s
Keyboard Logitech G110
Software Windows 10 x64 Pro
#13
er, killer nic will improve the latency between your nic and your router. thats all. are you saying u have 10ms lag within your lan?
I would say that's a pretty screwed up network....

To get back to the Killer NIC, every test ever done on it *by a 3rd party* shows absolutely no viable difference.

The Killer NIC is pretty much a server NIC style nic with a single port, it could come in handy in offloading your processor and letting its onboard processor handle it's work itself, in a single standalone machine playing games this doesn't really do much, now if you had 500 simultaneous connections that might be a different story.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
4,659 (1.31/day)
Likes
1,009
System Name Obelisc
Processor i7 3770k @ 4.8 GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V
Cooling H110
Memory 16GB(4x4) @ 2400 MHz 9-11-11-31
Video Card(s) GTX 780 Ti
Storage 850 EVO 1TB, 2x 5TB Toshiba
Case T81
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD
Power Supply EVGA 850 T2 80+ TITANIUM
Software Win10 64bit
#14
er, killer nic will improve the latency between your nic and your router. thats all. are you saying u have 10ms lag within your lan?
I just expanded the test a bit, I went over to my friends house where he was getting over 40ms. We hooked both pcs up one at a time and did the test, and even tried having both hooked up to his router at once. In every test my ping remained 10 ms lower on average. I don't really get why it would only be able to help between the pc and router? That goes against every review I've seen that showed an improvement (though those weren't on top end systems, I think), the latency it's supposed to be dealing with is completely on the pc end isn't it?
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
7,698 (1.91/day)
Likes
747
Processor i7-5820K
Motherboard Gigabyte X99-UD4
Cooling Corsair H100i
Memory 16GB Crucial DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) Asus Strix GTX 1070
Storage 240GB HyperX 3k, 500GB Samsung 850EVO, 2x WD Black 640gb, WD Black 1TB, Seagate 10TB
Display(s) 2x BenQ 24" 1920x1080
Case BitFenix Ghost
Audio Device(s) Focusrite Saffire PRO 14 -> DBX DriveRack PA+ -> Mackie MR8 and MR10 / Corsair Vengeance 2100
Power Supply Corsair RM1000i
Mouse Logitech G500s
Keyboard Logitech G110
Software Windows 10 x64 Pro
#15
I just expanded the test a bit, I went over to my friends house where he was getting over 40ms. We hooked both pcs up one at a time and did the test, and even tried having both hooked up to his router at once. In every test my ping remained 10 ms lower on average. I don't really get why it would only be able to help between the pc and router? That goes against every review I've seen that showed an improvement (though those weren't on top end systems, I think), the latency it's supposed to be dealing with is completely on the pc end isn't it?
The only way they can possibly improve latency is if your processor is overloaded by handling the nic, or your onboard nic is just simply horrible..

Want to do a real comparison, run the nic in your machine vs your onboard nic and then in his machine vs his onboard nic.

Also let us know what the onboard nics are, not that it can't improve performance, but the numbers you are spitting out here are on the extreme of what could be possible in normal situations.
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,540 (0.41/day)
Likes
173
System Name :3
Processor Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 - 3ghz
Motherboard GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Dynamic Energy Saver Ultra Durable II Intel Motherboard
Cooling cm 212 EVO
Memory G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1000 (PC2 8000) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model
Video Card(s) BFG GTX 275
Storage WD black 500gb Samsung 1tb
Display(s) 27" 1366x768 Olevia 527v
Case Antec Three Hundred
Audio Device(s) ALC889
Power Supply CORSAIR TX Series CMPSU-750TX 750W ATX12V v2.3 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Ac
Software Windows 8 pro
#16
i get less than 1ms ping to my router at all times. and i have some junky onboard lan [asus p5k]
 

tigger

I'm the only one
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
10,476 (2.44/day)
Likes
1,673
System Name Black to the Core MKIV
Processor Intel I7 6700k
Motherboard Asus Z170 Pro Gaming socket 1151
Cooling NZXT Kraken X61 280mm radiator
Memory 2x8gb Corsair vengeance LPX 2400 DDR4
Video Card(s) XFX Radeon R9 290 4gb ddr5
Storage Patriot Blast 120gb ssd Boot and WD10EADX-22TDHB0 1TB Data
Display(s) Dell 2408WFP 24" 1920x1200
Case Nzxt IS 340
Audio Device(s) Asus xonar dsx pci-e
Power Supply Corsair CX750
Mouse Logitech G502
Software Win 10 Pro x64
#17
My ping is about 3x-4x in dalaran with my onboard lan.The killer nic is a rip off,should be 50-60 quid max.
 
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,866 (0.83/day)
Likes
697
Location
South Carolina
System Name KILLER
Processor Intel Core i7 4770K
Motherboard MSI Z87 G45 Gaming
Cooling Water Cooling
Memory 2x4GB Gskill 2400mhz
Video Card(s) EVGA GTX 780TI
Storage SSD Kingston 240GB
Display(s) 24" Asus 144hz
Case Cooler Master HAF
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Platinum
Power Supply Antec 1200 Watt Modular
Software Windows 7 64 Bit
Benchmark Scores 3DMark Vantage 51342
#18
The killer nic cards are a big ripoff...Had one myself and sold it...Im a big FPS player and never even seemed to make a difference!!
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
122 (0.03/day)
Likes
13
System Name Orion R7
Processor AMD Ryzen7 1700 at 4GHz
Motherboard ASUS Crosshair 6 Hero
Cooling Noctua HN-D15
Memory 2x 8GB DDR4 3200MHz G.SKILL TridentZ RGB
Video Card(s) EVGA NVIDIA GTX1080 ti FE
Storage 500GB Samsung NVMe SSD + 500GB Samsung SATA + 1TB HGST HDD
Display(s) AOC 27" 1080P
Case CM HAF
Audio Device(s) Sound Blaster Z
Power Supply 650W EVGA G2
Software Microsoft Windows 10 1709 Fallen Creatures :) Update 64bit
#19
I'm sure that 100$ spend on a CPU Upgrade or GPU Upgrade will help a lot more than some "Ultra Mega Giga LAN" adapter.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
6,374 (1.54/day)
Likes
983
System Name ICE-QUAD // ICE-CRUNCH
Processor Q6600 // 2x Xeon 5472
Memory 2GB DDR // 8GB FB-DIMM
Video Card(s) HD3850-AGP // FireGL 3400
Display(s) 2 x Samsung 204Ts = 3200x1200
Audio Device(s) Audigy 2
Software Windows Server 2003 R2 as a Workstation now migrated to W10 with regrets.
#20
Yep, I think if the OP is having a 10ms latecy from his PC to the router then there is something with either

1./ The LAN drivers,
2./ There are services, malware, or viruses bound to the onboard controller
3./ The onboard controller is working with the wrong MTU or framesize
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,540 (0.41/day)
Likes
173
System Name :3
Processor Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 - 3ghz
Motherboard GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Dynamic Energy Saver Ultra Durable II Intel Motherboard
Cooling cm 212 EVO
Memory G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1000 (PC2 8000) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model
Video Card(s) BFG GTX 275
Storage WD black 500gb Samsung 1tb
Display(s) 27" 1366x768 Olevia 527v
Case Antec Three Hundred
Audio Device(s) ALC889
Power Supply CORSAIR TX Series CMPSU-750TX 750W ATX12V v2.3 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Ac
Software Windows 8 pro
#21
im betting either a junky soho router, one of his boxes is useing a ton of bandwidth for something, or his box spesificly is doing something abnormal

but more likely than anything junky soho router prolly
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
4,659 (1.31/day)
Likes
1,009
System Name Obelisc
Processor i7 3770k @ 4.8 GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V
Cooling H110
Memory 16GB(4x4) @ 2400 MHz 9-11-11-31
Video Card(s) GTX 780 Ti
Storage 850 EVO 1TB, 2x 5TB Toshiba
Case T81
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD
Power Supply EVGA 850 T2 80+ TITANIUM
Software Win10 64bit
#22
Well we tried this without the router at his house, didn't make an improvement on either system. That's not what seems to be causing the dif. I'll give putting the card in his system a shot next, but it seems regardless people don't want to believe even a measly 10ms benefit is possible with the card :( Not like I gave it that positive of a review. It struck me as not an issue of the cpu or chipset being inadequate as much as the way the card processes the network info by bypassing the windows network stack, am I right in thinking that isn't done by onboard nics? The onboard is Marvell 88E8056, it's actually the same one my friend has.

On another note... has anyone here with an insanely shitty (or just old) system tried the NIC?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,540 (0.41/day)
Likes
173
System Name :3
Processor Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 - 3ghz
Motherboard GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Dynamic Energy Saver Ultra Durable II Intel Motherboard
Cooling cm 212 EVO
Memory G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1000 (PC2 8000) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model
Video Card(s) BFG GTX 275
Storage WD black 500gb Samsung 1tb
Display(s) 27" 1366x768 Olevia 527v
Case Antec Three Hundred
Audio Device(s) ALC889
Power Supply CORSAIR TX Series CMPSU-750TX 750W ATX12V v2.3 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Ac
Software Windows 8 pro
#23
yeah, it should help an older computer.
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
7,698 (1.91/day)
Likes
747
Processor i7-5820K
Motherboard Gigabyte X99-UD4
Cooling Corsair H100i
Memory 16GB Crucial DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) Asus Strix GTX 1070
Storage 240GB HyperX 3k, 500GB Samsung 850EVO, 2x WD Black 640gb, WD Black 1TB, Seagate 10TB
Display(s) 2x BenQ 24" 1920x1080
Case BitFenix Ghost
Audio Device(s) Focusrite Saffire PRO 14 -> DBX DriveRack PA+ -> Mackie MR8 and MR10 / Corsair Vengeance 2100
Power Supply Corsair RM1000i
Mouse Logitech G500s
Keyboard Logitech G110
Software Windows 10 x64 Pro
#24
W( Not like I gave it that positive of a review. It struck me as not an issue of the cpu or chipset being inadequate as much as the way the card processes the network info by bypassing the windows network stack, am I right in thinking that isn't done by onboard nics?
Well it's sorta true... It isn't processed in windows by your cpu its processed by the card and its own cpu instead. A 10ms drop is a really big drop especially when you consider the percentage, it easily leads everyone to believe there is another reason for the insane change.

Check our own review on it.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Bigfoot_Networks/KillerNIC_M1/7.html

It has the ability yes, but your numbers are on the extreme side.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
4,659 (1.31/day)
Likes
1,009
System Name Obelisc
Processor i7 3770k @ 4.8 GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V
Cooling H110
Memory 16GB(4x4) @ 2400 MHz 9-11-11-31
Video Card(s) GTX 780 Ti
Storage 850 EVO 1TB, 2x 5TB Toshiba
Case T81
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD
Power Supply EVGA 850 T2 80+ TITANIUM
Software Win10 64bit
#25
Well I can think of only one more way to test it. The next time I go over to his house we'll install it on his system and remove the router. Since we can leave the onboard nic drivers on we should be able to quickly switch between onboard and the NIC. We'll test 4 times on each system and take the average dif. for each system and overall. If anyone else has any suggestions for the test now is the time, I don't feel like testing it anymore after this :ohwell: