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Need some expert's advice with Undervolting. Illegear Raven i5-8300H GTX1050Ti 4GB TongFang

Depiko

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for past week i have been trying to understand more about undervolting and 3-4 days before this post, i tried after following multiple guide + reading reply from UNCLEWEBB on lot of forum.

i need some advice with undervolting my laptop

My device is
-Illegear Raven
-i5-8300h
-GTX1050Ti 4GB VRAm

i know TONGFANG is the manufacturer, but i cant seem to find the exact same configuration of mine with tongfang version.
where can i find all model of tongfang? been trying but cant find the answer.

Ok lets start with the undervolting topic
First i start with stock config and run cinebench, and got about 16xx mark with (pl1,pl2 under CPU) and (edp other under all three tab cpu/gpu/ring)

Then i go for undervolting using Throttlestop.
here is what i configure

#### before continue reading, you might want to skip and just check the uploaded document, all info is there (ss of cinebench, setting in option,TPL, FIVR CPU core, FIVR CPU cache) skip till next hashtag ####

In main menu,
-enable log file
-enable speedshift epp, setting 80

In Option,
I enabled/tick
-Do not reset FID/VID on exit
-Battery monitoring
-Start Minimzed
-Minimize on close
-Click on MHZ to minimize
-Tick Nvidia GPU

In FIVR
-Max out turbo ratio limit ( 40-40-40-39 to 40-40-40-40 )
-Tick/Enable Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limit
-tick/enable OK - save voltages immediately
-tick/enable unlock adjustable voltage and Adaptive on both CPU Core and CPU Cache
-Max out skyhigh the IccMax under both CPU Core and Cache
-change the Offset Voltage Value ( according to pics given i tested with multiple value; more below further )

In TPL
-change Turbo Boost Power max from 50 to 60
-Tick/Enable speedshift and enable speedshift when ThrottleStop starts.

Method of testing
1- change offset value, keeping core and cache at same value
2- run Cinebench R20
3- if no crash SS all data (ss of cinebench, setting in option,TPL, FIVR CPU core, FIVR CPU cache), then increase undervolt by 10
4- repeat 1-3 until crash
5- once crash, i decrease CPU Cache by 20
6- repeat step 1-3 without change CPU Cache Value until crash
7- once crash, drop the CPU Core Value by 20
8- now, i consider it passed the CINEBENCH as it stable, (with result of -170mv on both CPU Core and CPU Cache)
9- then i run TS Bench (Throttlestop Bench) with setting of; 1/2/3/8 Threads and 6144M (P/s; as i run the TS Bench, im using the computer too browsing the internet, as im looking for error not score so i dont think its a problem?)
10- if got error, decrease value of CPU Core and Cache
11- Repeat until no error at 1/2/4/8 threads with 6144M
12- ended up with values of -150 on both CPU Core and Cache

#### continue reading below if you checkout the document ###

now with -150 on both CPU core and CPU cache, i consider it as best performance i can get.
but i still want some experts advice on my setting.

#Testing another configuration
i found another forum with same CPU, success with value of CPU Core -200, and CPU Cache of -125.
I tried with this setting, passed Cinebench stability.
As the time of writing, i am running TS Bench to look for error.

what are your thoughts? can share some opinion?
my main target is want to maximize performance AND maximize device life by undervolting.
if i raise the PL1 or PL2 values, in long term, does it have any bad effect? i read somewhere it could fry the CPU in long run. however its does not state the temperature of CPU, i mean if temperature is below 95C, will it damage the CPU? if not, i'd like trying to increase the PL1 values. If it does damage the CPU even if the temperature is good, I'd rather not to change PL1 values, but maybe increase PL2value/turbotimelimit

Thanks in advance ! It will really boost my confidence if Developer of ThrottleStop, UncleWebb reply in this thread !
Also, i tried looking to enable LIMIT REASONS in the log file but cant find it, so i just proceed with test. once i just checking the log file, and it was actually enabled by default ( was stress-testing with aida64-all stress except disk stress ) but too bad, i didnt know which till which is the log file for each test, as i do it consecutively and it in one file :(
If you want a log file of specific values/settings, just share your opinion, I'll do it.

i just register for this forum, sorry for inconvenience and
sorry for my bad english.

update; with testing configuration purposes( CPU Core -200, CPU Cache -125), TS Bench just finished, here are the picture

UPDATE #for references;

testing with CPU Core of -200 and CPU Cache of -125, PL1 raised to 50, PL2 raised to 60.
 

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unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
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Messages
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@Depiko - It looks like your computer is running great. Increasing the turbo power limits to 50W or 60W is not going to hurt anything. This technology can run at much higher power limits without any problems.

Most people start to lose stability if the cache goes much beyond -125 mV. Your temperatures are OK so I would use -125 mV for cache and -200 mV for core with the power limit set to 50W or 55W. That is enough for full performance. The maximum multiplier when 4 cores are active is 39 so if you see 39.00 when testing, that is as good as it gets.

The 8300H cannot be overclocked so you can leave the turbo ratios at 40, 40, 40, 39
Edit - You can increase the PP0 Current Limit up to 120. That will help to get rid of the EDP OTHER throttling.

The only problem I see is when your computer is idle, what does ThrottleStop show for C0% on the main screen? It looks like you have too much stuff running in the background. Less than 0.5% is typical. More than this and you have to find out what is running in the background on your computer.

1610741774843.png


When idle C0% is high, your benchmark scores will be reduced and some games or apps might stutter and not play smoothly because the CPU is constantly being interrupted to process the background tasks.

You have done a great job of figuring out how to use ThrottleStop.
Good work! :toast:
 
Last edited:

Depiko

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@Depiko - It looks like your computer is running great. Increasing the turbo power limits to 50W or 60W is not going to hurt anything. This technology can run at much higher power limits without any problems.
Alright then! will increase the value now.
Most people start to lose stability if the cache goes much beyond -125 mV. Your temperatures are OK so I would use -125 mV for cache and -200 mV for core with the power limit set to 50W or 55W. That is enough for full performance.
Thankyou! will keep using it for a week, if stable then i'll make it autorun from start ( i believe im still in testing phase, after 1 week only i'll trust it 100% stable with the configurations :D )
and, may i know to test stability with CPU Cache only? as in my test its stable with -170 Core and Cache, but it is better ( i think so ) with -200 Core and -125 Cache.
(P/S i might wanna try -250 Core and -125 Cache as i heard 2:1 ratio is good for core and cache? so it really helps if i could understand what CPU Cache does when its too low)
The maximum multiplier when 4 cores are active is 39 so if you see 39.00 when testing, that is as good as it gets.

The 8300H cannot be overclocked so you can leave the turbo ratios at 40, 40, 40, 39
Noted! changed back value to 40-40-40-39! thanks for explanation!
Edit - You can increase the PP0 Current Limit up to 120. That will help to get rid of the EDP OTHER throttling.
Done! will test later for EDP Throttling (P/S i dont know what is EDP Other means. i only know if PL1/PL2 lights up, this will lights up too. but if EDP Other lights up on its own, i don't know what the reason)
The only problem I see is when your computer is idle, what does ThrottleStop show for C0% on the main screen? It looks like you have too much stuff running in the background. Less than 0.5% is typical. More than this and you have to find out what is running in the background on your computer.

View attachment 184151

When idle C0% is high, your benchmark scores will be reduced and some games or apps might stutter and not play smoothly because the CPU is constantly being interrupted to process the background tasks.
Do you have guide regarding the C0%? i will spent some time learning that, then i'll ask if i dont understand anything.

##For sidenote,
i already done(long time ago)
-uninstalled all unused apps/bloatware
-i dont uninstall/disabled any INTEL/RAVEN/MICROSOFT/WINDOWS programs/apps/stuff if im not sure what it does, only do it when i know what it does,
-disabled programs i dont need when booting in startup manager
-disabled animation/transparency/tweak some setting in windows to have more performance with my personal preferences

Does C0% relates with CPU% in Task Manager?
i dont really know how to reduce C0%, so if there is a guide to do as what u said, it will be really helpful to do so ! :D
###

You have done a great job of figuring out how to use ThrottleStop.
Good work! :toast:

Thankyou so much UncleWebb ! i only able to figure it out based on your replies on a lot of forum/thread. It is really helpful! The only thing is, theres alot of variation of CPU that configuration differs from each one of them, i want to avoid misunderstanding and thats the only reason why i started a thread. Thankyou so much again !!!
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
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Messages
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i heard 2:1 ratio is good
I think the 2:1 ratio is a myth. Set the core and cache to whatever you like so you get best performance and 100% stability.

-125 mV for the cache works well for many Intel mobile CPUs. If you can run stable with your cache at -150 mV then you can use that. When most people set their cache to -150 mV and then try to increase their core to -200 mV, they lose stability. That is why most people have found that they get their best overall results by setting the cache lower to -125 mV and then increasing the core to -200 mV or -225 mV. All CPUs are unique. Use whatever works best for your CPU. I do not own your CPU. Use my advice to guide you. Do some testing to confirm what works best for you and your CPU.

what is EDP
EDP is Electrical Design Point. This one will light up red under the RING column at the exact same time when PL1 or PL2 light up in the CORE column. Watch the CORE column. That is the important one. If EDP OTHER lights up red across all three domains at the same time, that is usually the PP0 Current Limit / Power Limit 4 causing that or the FIVR IccMax settings that are causing that. Increase all of these to see if this makes the throttling go away.

C0% measures how long a CPU needs to be in the C0 state actively working on tasks. It is a little different than what Task Manager shows you. The Task Manager Processes tab is bugged. C0% is an extremely accurate look at what a CPU is really doing. What do you see for idle C0%? Some antivirus programs are terrible. Which one are you using? There is a lot of junk software out there that will load your CPU all of the time when it really does not need to. It is just poorly written software. You can see in my screenshot that you can run all of Windows 10 and ThrottleStop without the CPU needing to spend much time at all in the C0 state processing background tasks. If you are seeing high C0% when idle, open the Task Manger, go to the Details tab (not the Processes tab), and find out what is running on your computer. Click on the CPU column to organize your tasks by CPU usage and the crap will always rise to the top.

There you go, an official C0% guide.
 

Depiko

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I think the 2:1 ratio is a myth. Set the core and cache to whatever you like so you get best performance and 100% stability.

-125 mV for the cache works well for many Intel mobile CPUs. If you can run stable with your cache at -150 mV then you can use that. When most people set their cache to -150 mV and then try to increase their core to -200 mV, they lose stability. That is why most people have found that they get their best overall results by setting the cache lower to -125 mV and then increasing the core to -200 mV or -225 mV. All CPUs are unique. Use whatever works best for your CPU. I do not own your CPU. Use my advice to guide you. Do some testing to confirm what works best for you and your CPU.
this is what happened to me to, having cache -150 maxed out my core at -150 too. cant get any further.
and i tested the config -125 cache, -200 core and its stable for now (passed cinebench r20 run, aida64 all stress except local disk test (30mins), passed TS bench 1/2/4/8 thread on 6144M without crash/errors)
as of now, i just finished ts bench with no errors with CPU Core-250, CPU Cache -125. will doing aida64 stability test after this.
EDP is Electrical Design Point. This one will light up red under the RING column at the exact same time when PL1 or PL2 light up in the CORE column. Watch the CORE column. That is the important one. If EDP OTHER lights up red across all three domains at the same time, that is usually the PP0 Current Limit / Power Limit 4 causing that or the FIVR IccMax settings that are causing that. Increase all of these to see if this makes the throttling go away.
i did increase PP0 current limit, FIVR ICCMAX on bot CPU Core and CPU Cache, and i no longer see EDP OTHER, except under 'RING' which lights up in YELLOW, and i believe never seen it goes RED (so i didnt bother with it, should i?) it's also come right back if cleared
C0% measures how long a CPU needs to be in the C0 state actively working on tasks. It is a little different than what Task Manager shows you. The Task Manager Processes tab is bugged. C0% is an extremely accurate look at what a CPU is really doing. What do you see for idle C0%?
understood, and know im aware i got high C0% when idling when its not supposed to. if im not mistaken, it should be 80% or above in C7 states right? and mine doesnt, will need some time looking for more info about this
Some antivirus programs are terrible. Which one are you using?
i only use windows defender, no other antivirus except Malwarebytes, which configured to not auto-run and it is only run/launched when i needed it, just to full scan then exit the program ( once/twice a month maybe? idk )
There is a lot of junk software out there that will load your CPU all of the time when it really does not need to. It is just poorly written software. You can see in my screenshot that you can run all of Windows 10 and ThrottleStop without the CPU needing to spend much time at all in the C0 state processing background tasks. If you are seeing high C0% when idle, open the Task Manger, go to the Details tab (not the Processes tab), and find out what is running on your computer. Click on the CPU column to organize your tasks by CPU usage and the crap will always rise to the top.

There you go, an official C0% guide.
Done, rebooted my computer, wait for a moment ( approx 30 secs ) and run TS + task manager and SS the photo.

UPDATE;

i didnt realise i didnt START the data in Throttlestop in the first picture, i repeated the same process and START DATA, here are the new pic (c states 0 -2)
c states 0 - 02.png
 

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unclewebb

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Messages
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Here is what I get for C state activity when idle.

1610836092044.png


I have more cores available so high C7% is easier to achieve. On a fresh install of Windows 10 on a 4 core CPU, you can get average core C7% to 99% or slightly better.

Your screenshot shows one core at 70% in C7 so something is running on your computer that is preventing it from idle.

You have an Nvidia GPU and ThrottleStop is showing the temperature. Most computers use Nvidia Optimus so the GPU goes to sleep. When this happens, ThrottleStop will not report the GPU temperature. It will show GPU --°C instead. Do you ever see this? This means Optimus is working correctly. If it displays a temperature, something is keeping your Nvidia GPU active when it does not need to.

You can also use the Resource Monitor to track down background processes. I have hardly anything installed on this computer. As soon as you start installing things, it is a good idea to keep track of how it effects your C0%.

For testing purposes, if you use a Speed Shift EPP value of 0, this will speed up your CPU. A fast CPU is more efficient so it can process the background tasks quicker. This allows the CPU to spend more of its idle time in the C0 state. Everyone sees a fast CPU and automatically assumes high power consumption. It does not have to be if the C states are working properly.

 

Depiko

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Here is what I get for C state activity when idle.

View attachment 184317

I have more cores available so high C7% is easier to achieve. On a fresh install of Windows 10 on a 4 core CPU, you can get average core C7% to 99% or slightly better.
wow almost all cores 0.0% ! very interesting!
Your screenshot shows one core at 70% in C7 so something is running on your computer that is preventing it from idle.
did some testing and it was actually USB to HDMI adapter (for my third monitor, since my laptop only have 1 hdmi output and i needed another 1), i tried removed that for testing purpose and the value jumped right to about where other cores are.

here are the picture, as for references
IMG_20210118_014547.jpg

You have an Nvidia GPU and ThrottleStop is showing the temperature. Most computers use Nvidia Optimus so the GPU goes to sleep. When this happens, ThrottleStop will not report the GPU temperature. It will show GPU --°C instead. Do you ever see this? This means Optimus is working correctly. If it displays a temperature, something is keeping your Nvidia GPU active when it does not need to.
i will do some research about the NVIDIA OPTIMUS, as for now, i didn't really know how to determine if i have it or it just not working (tried unplugging the monitor from HDMI port, and TS is still showing GPU temps on idle)
You can also use the Resource Monitor to track down background processes. I have hardly anything installed on this computer. As soon as you start installing things, it is a good idea to keep track of how it effects your C0%.
definitely will learn to use this !
For testing purposes, if you use a Speed Shift EPP value of 0, this will speed up your CPU. A fast CPU is more efficient so it can process the background tasks quicker. This allows the CPU to spend more of its idle time in the C0 state. Everyone sees a fast CPU and automatically assumes high power consumption. It does not have to be if the C states are working properly.

i did and i noticed the value reduced a lot by around half from its initial range. thanks for the tip!

Question, i found a guide which i tried but not fully did all steps in the guide as its too overwhelming ( and too much steps ) and i only did partially (will do full when got more time to spend)
what are your thoughts about this guide?
here are the link to the guide

https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/dddsqv
and here are some results obtained with following partially of the guide (note that i screenshot it on the lowest-amount on TS i could get, while its actually fluctuating, which i didnt determine range of fluctuating value -my bad)

### all photos are tested with the USB to HDMI adapter UNPLUGGED ######

c-states with data off.png
c-states with data off-2.png
c-states with data off-3.png
c-states with data off-4.png
c-states with data on.png

c-states with data on-2.png
c-states with data on-3.png
c-states with data on-4.png
c-states with data on-5.png



Also for reference, because of ODL (online distance learning), i set my laptop like a desktop
here are some of the pictures

IMG_20210118_020243.jpg
IMG_20210118_020304.jpg
IMG_20210118_020324.jpg
 

unclewebb

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all photos are tested with the USB to HDMI adapter UNPLUGGED
It is always surprising when one poorly written driver can screw up the C states from working properly. It is great to see that a few tweaks have made your computer run faster and it also runs cooler when idle. Individual core temps under 40°C when idle looks great.

The Notebook Review guide you found has lots of good ideas. Read through it when you have the time.

Your laptop might have disabled the Intel GPU in the BIOS. Some users prefer having their laptops setup like this so that they know that the Nvidia GPU is always being used when gaming. Using multiple monitors might also disable the Intel GPU. You are plugged in and your temps are good so no need to worry about this.
 

Depiko

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It is always surprising when one poorly written driver can screw up the C states from working properly. It is great to see that a few tweaks have made your computer run faster and it also runs cooler when idle. Individual core temps under 40°C when idle looks great.
Thanks to you for addressing it ! without you i dont event know what was that for and how to read it. haha

The Notebook Review guide you found has lots of good ideas. Read through it when you have the time.
I will! and i have lots of application on my laptop now, and im considering to do a fresh reinstall and checks for everything especially the value (C0%, PKG Power, Core C7% States, Package C States) is between correct range then only ill proceed installing another apps.
p/s; im considering this because i believe i have poor Packages C states (only managed to enter C3, while it should be C7)


Previous ss while IDLING n UNPLUGGING all usb, only able to reach C3
Package C States while idling.png


Latest ss while NOT IDLING and PLUGGING all usb, ( ignore the numbers, i just want to show the Package C State Limit)
Package C States while using.png

Based on this latest SS, i believe i should actually achieve C7% in Package C States while idling (referring to my Package C State Limits Locked is C7s)

however my laptop only managed to achieve C3% states while idling and unplugging all usb hubs, which in the guide mentioned, "this might be due to a wrong/incorrect driver that prevent idling to achieve C7% states"
since i did the tweak mentioned and did not managed to solve it, i am assuming it is due to incorrect drivers, and thats why im attempting to do a fresh install win10 + stock driver from manufacturer + not updating the driver, and test with ThrottleStop whether it managed to achieve C7% or not.


Your laptop might have disabled the Intel GPU in the BIOS. Some users prefer having their laptops setup like this so that they know that the Nvidia GPU is always being used when gaming. Using multiple monitors might also disable the Intel GPU. You are plugged in and your temps are good so no need to worry about this.
ichecked out my BIOS and there is no option for that :( however, i did some test and confirmed that NVIDIA OPTIMUS is working in my laptop, thankyou again for addressing it!

##for references (esp to those who are reading this thread), here's how i did to test it.

1- open nvidia control panel, under the "DESKTOP" tab, tick "Display GPU Activity Icon in Notification Area"
1610960637007.png


2-and now should able to see the Activity Icon
1610960687145.png


3-left click the icon and check for the process (refer below)
1610960723199.png


4- tada !! those are the process that using NVIDIA GPU that prevents it from powering off!

p/s; as im doing this 'tutorial (i guess)', currently all my usb are plugged in, with my main monitor is displayed on the HDMI port from GPU.
1- when I unplug all the connection (EVERYTHING except power cord) , i noticed that only 1 apps that is using GPU that is something like " swvisualizeboost.exe "( sorry no picture as i already configured it up, nevertheless, yours might be different .exe too)
2- when i change it to manual start in SERVICES or services.msc and reboot, i cant run the application (SOLIDWORKS) because it need that service (swvisualizeboost.exe).
3- what i did was, i create task scheduler (googled the guide) to run the service.exe when i run the application (SOLIDWORKS) ( means the service launch when i launch the app)
4- problem fixed and i was able to see throttlestop showing GPU to --C ( meaning GPU is disabled/powered off ) example below
NVIDIA OPTIMUS.png



i might reconfigure it later to make it available to set is as Manual(Triggered) in Services.msc , but that is something i should focus on later.

my only concern right now is my State C Packages only able to go to C3% instead of C7%, thus increasing PKG Power, ( Watt ) consumed when idling
need more time to do some research and trying stuff before i decide to reinstall the OS ( as im still studying, i decided not to reinstall yet as i might lose my file , will do it once exam is over (in a month))



Wow. i didn't even realize i have lot of problems on my laptop before trying Undervolt! guess installing ThrottleStop changed my device life! :p


### Side note,
i hit a new record in Cinebench R20 !!! :p

test 2 .png


update; Based on the link i found below, does this means my laptop actually support until C10 states?
if so, this is worth reinstalling OS for ! xD

1610983468296.png


https:// www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i5/Intel-Core%20i5%20i5-8300H.html

update ;

it is confirmed that my laptop only support until C7s eventho CPU can support until C10 (lol)
and yes actually the answer is in Throttlestop already, my bad, (again lol) (pics refer below)

max C states supported.png


but still, need to troubleshoot the problem..

also, found a thread of someone with about same problem with me, the only difference is he is locked at C8 state instead of C7 state(mine)

https:// www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/bowqvo/my_notebook_cant_reach_any_deeper_cstates_than_c3/

will be using it as guide too :)
 

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unclewebb

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@Depiko - You are learning lots of new stuff about your laptop. Good work. You are a good student. :D

Nice to see that ThrottleStop correctly reports when your Nvidia GPU is active or inactive. A lot of people get poor battery run time because the Nvidia GPU is always active when it does not need to be. The Intel GPU is less powerful / more efficient. No need to have two GPUs active when just searching through forums, etc.

After a clean install of Windows, the default drivers can block some of the package C states from working. I noticed a couple of days ago that the default Microsoft IDE ATA/ATAPI Controller driver that Windows installs interferes with the package C states. If Microsoft cannot even figure this stuff out, good look finding a small laptop manufacturer that can get all of their drivers compatible with the deeper C states. Your BIOS might have locked your package C states to a maximum of C7s because they had no idea how to get package C8 working.

This is a common problem. More laptops are broken than working correctly. When your computer is idle, try unplugging it and switching to battery power. Some laptops will only use the deeper package C states when on battery power. That is OK. When plugged in, package C3 or package C8 is not going to make a noticeable difference to your power bill or anything like that. On battery power, every mW of wasted power is important. That is the only time when the deep package C states are important. Do not kill yourself trying to get these working.

means the service launch when i launch the app
That is how a properly programmed app should work. SOLIDWORKS should not keep your Nvidia GPU constantly active when you are not even using the program. Their programmers get a Fail.

hit a new record in Cinebench R20 !!!
Congratulations. That is the reason why tracking down and getting rid of useless background apps is important. People wonder why their computer runs so slow. It is because they install apps without ever checking how those apps load their computer. Some apps constantly run in the background when there is no reason to. The C0% data is a very accurate measure of what your CPU is really doing. Far more accurate than the Task Manager Processes tab.
 

Depiko

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@Depiko - You are learning lots of new stuff about your laptop. Good work. You are a good student. :D
Im not a good student without a good teacher ! :p


Nice to see that ThrottleStop correctly reports when your Nvidia GPU is active or inactive. A lot of people get poor battery run time because the Nvidia GPU is always active when it does not need to be. The Intel GPU is less powerful / more efficient. No need to have two GPUs active when just searching through forums, etc.
totally agree 100%!


After a clean install of Windows, the default drivers can block some of the package C states from working. I noticed a couple of days ago that the default Microsoft IDE ATA/ATAPI Controller driver that Windows installs interferes with the package C states. If Microsoft cannot even figure this stuff out, good look finding a small laptop manufacturer that can get all of their drivers compatible with the deeper C states. Your BIOS might have locked your package C states to a maximum of C7s because they had no idea how to get package C8 working.
Yeah might be my bios too. is there possibility updating BIOS will enable deeper C states? i contacted ILLEGEAR (the reseller) and he said latest bios is 1.09. (mine right now is 1.06)
from what i understand, flashing bios is risky to those who never did it (like me), so i guess will pass it. ( p/s ILLEGEAR said can guide me and can update the bios for me also, but need to bring the laptop to him, which is impossible for now as my country is in MCO (Movement Control Order) ( yeah, due to coronavirus), so i might bring it to him if i wanted to update the bios later on! :D )


This is a common problem. More laptops are broken than working correctly. When your computer is idle, try unplugging it and switching to battery power. Some laptops will only use the deeper package C states when on battery power. That is OK. When plugged in, package C3 or package C8 is not going to make a noticeable difference to your power bill or anything like that. On battery power, every mW of wasted power is important. That is the only time when the deep package C states are important. Do not kill yourself trying to get these working.
Noted! Unfortunately my battery is in dangerous condition ( i think so ) due to excessive charging (minimum 8 hours per day plugged in, everyday since the start of Coronavirus pandemic, which is about 9-10 month ago from this date of writing. Replacing it, in my opinion does not worth it ( for now as i cant utilize the portability due to MCO and ODL ). might replace it when i go back to university or when i think i will utilize the portability of a laptop.

What are your thoughts? i think plugging it for testing purpose will give no harm. but some people warn that it may explode anytime :(
like always, some photos below XD
1610994435722.png

1610994448186.png



That is how a properly programmed app should work. SOLIDWORKS should not keep your Nvidia GPU constantly active when you are not even using the program. Their programmers get a Fail.
now i know how a properly programmed app should work. before this, my understanding is as long as it run, then it works! lol :p


Congratulations. That is the reason why tracking down and getting rid of useless background apps is important. People wonder why their computer runs so slow. It is because they install apps without ever checking how those apps load their computer. Some apps constantly run in the background when there is no reason to. The C0% data is a very accurate measure of what your CPU is really doing. Far more accurate than the Task Manager Processes tab.
yes! now that i know how to read the data, i do agree the C states is giving way far more accurate details than Task manager (wait, should they be compared? because i really think Task Manager doesnt have any chance to win :p )
 

unclewebb

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as long as it run, then it works!
That is how most consumers think. Hardly anyone knows how things are supposed to work. If fixing something does not increase sales and if no one complains, why bother fixing it?

Here is a pic of working package C states vs broken. The core C states are the same in both pics.


I would not plug a damaged battery into my computer. You know it is damaged. Why risk damaging your computer by using that battery?

Recent BIOS updates can disable CPU voltage control. What is more important to you? C states or CPU voltage control? I know what is more important to me.

A good test for the Task Manager Performance tab is use the ThrottleStop TS Bench to load half of your CPU. Run a 4 Thread test on a 8 Thread CPU and you should see 50% CPU usage for this test plus another percent for the background tasks. What does the C0% show? What does the Task Manager show?
 
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Depiko

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That is how most consumers think. Hardly anyone knows how things are supposed to work. If fixing something does not increase sales and if no one complains, why bother fixing it?

Here is a pic of working package C states vs broken. The core C states are the same in both pics.

noted, confirmed that mine has some problems with the C states. will do the troubleshooting later on my leisure time. Thanks for the simple and effective example ! made really easy to understand the difference .


I would not plug a damaged battery into my computer. You know it is damaged. Why risk damaging your computer by using that battery?
alright ! will not plug it even for testing purpose :D


Recent BIOS updates can disable CPU voltage control. What is more important to you? C states or CPU voltage control? I know what is more important to me.
of course CPU Voltage control ! xD
noted, will try my best to solve the Package C States without updating BIOS :3

p/s; will update later if there is any progress made/achieved
 
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unclewebb

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Here is a 10 thread test on a 20 thread CPU. ThrottleStop can figure this out correctly. What everyone thinks the Windows Utilization number means is not what it really means.

Windows takes the turbo multiplier (50) and divides that by the base multiplier (36) and multiplies that factor to come up with a Utilization percentage. It is completely meaningless but consumers see this and think they need a new CPU because their Utilization is so high. Microsoft and Intel must be good friends.

50.2% X (50 / 36) = 69.7%

1610997677602.png
 

Depiko

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Here is a 10 thread test on a 20 thread CPU. ThrottleStop can figure this out correctly. What everyone thinks the Windows Utilization number means is not what it really means.

Windows takes the turbo multiplier (50) and divides that by the base multiplier (36) and multiplies that factor to come up with a Utilization percentage. It is completely meaningless but consumers see this and think they need a new CPU because their Utilization is so high. Microsoft and Intel must be good friends.

50.2% X (50 / 36) = 69.7%

View attachment 184550
nice .. now i see the relation between C0% and Utilisation in Task Manager. this is indeed a valuable information !

Quick Q if you dont mind,
In task manager, the secondary CPU Graph line/kernel time graph, is that on ThrottleStop too like the Main CPU Utilization graph on Task Manager?
 

unclewebb

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In task manager, the secondary CPU Graph line/kernel time graph, is that on ThrottleStop too
No.

ThrottleStop only tracks C0%. If you think a bad driver is causing a problem, you will have to look at the Task Manager graphs for kernel time. I have never needed to use kernel time. I hope this data is more meaningful compared to their Utilization data.
 

Depiko

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Hi its me again! just finished exam, i reinstalled windows, install driver from manufacturer stock driver and have no luck of getting into C7.( i cant test on battery due to my battery is damaged ) so as of right now i think i have everything set-up back before i create a backup image of my window. however i only one problem that is, throttlestop automatically starts data log when startup

i used task scheduler to automatically start it at logon, however i noticed that it also auto start data together.. how to not auto start the data?

throttlestop data.png


i tried;
disabled and enabled BD Prochot (to make the save button not grayed out) still failed when auto restart

am i missing something? heres some task scheduler screenshot
 

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unclewebb

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am i missing something?
Run ThrottleStop, press the Stop Data button. With data stopped, exit ThrottleStop. The next time ThrottleStop starts it will be in Stop Data mode.

In your Task Scheduler settings, I would not leave "Stop if the computer ceases to be idle" checked. Even when grayed out, this can cause a problem. Here is the Task Scheduler guide I follow.

 

Depiko

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Run ThrottleStop, press the Stop Data button. With data stopped, exit ThrottleStop. The next time ThrottleStop starts it will be in Stop Data mode.
ah... i have never thought of this. Thankyou so much !
In your Task Scheduler settings, I would not leave "Stop if the computer ceases to be idle" checked. Even when grayed out, this can cause a problem. Here is the Task Scheduler guide I follow.

Thanks for pointing that out ! i changed the settings.

now i (think) have successfully undervolt my CPU and CPU cache,
next planning is to undervolt iGPU and dedicated GPU

what is the symptom of exessive iGPU undervolt?
and can recommend apps like throttlestop to undervolt GPU? for now i only know msi afterburner but i kinda does not like it. huhu
 

unclewebb

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what is the symptom of excessive iGPU undervolt?
I never undervolt the Intel GPU. If you have a Nvidia GPU, the Intel GPU is rarely significantly loaded so there it not much point in lowering its voltage. If you do undervolt the Intel GPU, you also need to undervolt the iGPU Unslice. An excessive undervolt will likely crash.

Here is a list of some other GPU tools. Not sure which ones work with your GPU.
MSI Afterburner is the most popular one.

 

Depiko

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hi uncle webb! its me again, i need expertise's thought again.

i decided to push undervolt more since the last time i did, i ran out of time ( for testing ) and stopped at -250v cpu core, -125v cache

i pushed more on core but not in cache ( as in my previous attempt, more cache results crash )

i did the test with increment of -50v on core, then ran ts bench to look for errors.


however... right now im at -500v core but still ts bench does not give error, ( even in prime95 and aida64 stability test)

i kinda feel weird because as far as i know, -300v is considered as 'lottery' chip (or something like that?)


can you look it out for me?

i applied the core, check if it is applied by
- in throttlestop FIVR window, the value of OFFSET/CPU Core in top right box
- and use app CPUID HWMonitor

both shows -500v..

but is it true??? its just a day but passed cinebech r15/20, tsbench, prime95 blend test until fft 4k/5k (i dont exactly remember the stage before i stopped im sorry) put the laptop to sleep and turn on again still able to turn on (not shutdown), the only thing not tested yet is a week of normal usage before apply autostartup ###sidenote, i got thermal throttling when at prime95 fft 4k/5k thats why i stopped, but before that temp is great, (i do notice when stress test fft 4k/5k temp is go flyhigh but other stress test still in great temp ###

the only thing i noticed is that the audio got sound crack if im playing youtube while cpu 100% while testing prime95/tsbench 8thread/aida64 ( im not sure if it exist before, as never played audio when stress testing )

what are your thoughts? ever head someone undervolt cpu core more than -500v?

i put some logs here (-500v cpu core )
 

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unclewebb

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is it true???
Yes and no. Mostly no.

When you change the voltage sliders in ThrottleStop, this sends a request to the CPU. It is only a request. If you request something that is stupid like -500 mV or -1000 mV for the core, it will ignore your request. Monitoring software will report this huge voltage number but that does not mean it is true.

Setting different core and cache voltages tricks the CPU but with this trick, you can only go so far. When the core offset is set to a bigger number than the cache offset, the CPU will use less voltage when it is running any software that uses the AVX instructions. The TS Bench does not use any AVX instructions so do not use the TS Bench to test different voltages. Same for Cinebench R15. You need to use newer software when testing. It is best to run Cinebench R20 to test different voltages.


The maximum difference between core and cache that you can request is approximately 100 mV. If you set the cache to -125 mV, that means you can set the core offset to as much as -225 mV. If you go beyond this number to -300 mV or -500 mV like you have done, the CPU simply ignores any excess.

The core and cache will continue to get -125 mV internally but this trick tells the CPU not to use extra voltage when running any AVX instructions. This can help reduce power consumption and it will improve temperatures or performance before power limit throttling sets in. Here are some Cinebench examples of this.


Your log file appears to show a laptop that is running great. I would leave the core and cache offsets at -225 mV for the core and -125 mV for the cache and call it a day.
 

Depiko

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Yes and no. Mostly no.

When you change the voltage sliders in ThrottleStop, this sends a request to the CPU. It is only a request. If you request something that is stupid like -500 mV or -1000 mV for the core, it will ignore your request.
luckily i decided to ask first before doing anymore test to push the cpu core im just feeling weird because i dont feel difference in temperature as voltage goes down.

Monitoring software will report this huge voltage number but that does not mean it is true.
so the best is to look into log folder right? this gonna take some times to try understand the VID xD

Setting different core and cache voltages tricks the CPU but with this trick, you can only go so far. When the core offset is set to a bigger number than the cache offset, the CPU will use less voltage when it is running any software that uses the AVX instructions. The TS Bench does not use any AVX instructions so do not use the TS Bench to test different voltages. Same for Cinebench R15. You need to use newer software when testing. It is best to run Cinebench R20 to test different voltages.


what am i should look when testing with cinebench R20?

highest score mark with lowest voltage?
does this mean the score will drop down if i've drop cpu core voltage too low?

The maximum difference between core and cache that you can request is approximately 100 mV. If you set the cache to -125 mV, that means you can set the core offset to as much as -225 mV. If you go beyond this number to -300 mV or -500 mV like you have done, the CPU simply ignores any excess.
by ignoring any excess, do you mean it use -225mV instead of -500mV right? or its use the default? (-0mv instead of -500mv )


The core and cache will continue to get -125 mV internally but this trick tells the CPU not to use extra voltage when running any AVX instructions. This can help reduce power consumption and it will improve temperatures or performance before power limit throttling sets in. Here are some Cinebench examples of this.

nice.. free 200 points

Your log file appears to show a laptop that is running great. I would leave the core and cache offsets at -225 mV for the core and -125 mV for the cache and call it a day.
thanks for the advice ! would try to experiment the voltage with r20 later on
 

unclewebb

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free 200 points
Does this explain what you should be looking for? You should see that either your CPU runs faster during this test or it runs cooler. If your CPU is already running at max speed, it cannot run faster so it should run cooler. You might see a lower power consumption number. If your CPU is throttling during R20, you should see an increase in your CPU speed. Highest score is best. When you test at -225 mV and test again at -500 mV, you should not see any change beyond random variation. This proves that a setting of -500 mV is not doing anything productive. It is not hurting anything but it is not accomplishing anything.

by ignoring any excess, do you mean it use -225mV instead of -500mV right? or its use the default? (-0mv instead of -500mv )
You should be able to test this yourself. Test R20 at 0 mV, -225 mV and -500 mV. Do you see a pattern?

i dont feel difference in temperature as voltage goes down
You are only going to see a difference when running software that uses AVX instructions. You posted lots of TS Bench testing but it does not use AVX instructions so TS Bench does not prove anything. Test with R20.

does this mean the score will drop down if i've drop cpu core voltage too low?
That might be true. Do some testing and post your results. I have never owned an 8th, 9th or 10th Gen mobile CPU. I know the theory but I have never done any hands on testing.
 
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