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NH-U14S-TR4 running hot on stock 1920X

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#1
After the AIO on my GF's video editing rig failed, I had it replaced with a Noctua NH-U14S-TR4 instead (wouldn't trust a replacement AIO given that the first one failed after less than a year ...). Installed it yesterday, and it seems to work okay, but temperatures are higher than expected. Or, more accurately, I'm hitting the 68-degree "max temp" (as per the specs) and the CPU is throttling well below the 3.5GHz base clock. Under sustained OCCT loads (yeah, I know this is unrealistic, but still) it fluctuates between 2.6 and 3.1GHz, probably averaging around 2.9 or so, with package power hovering around 140-150W according to HWMonitor. Given that the cooler is rated for 250W (albeit with an additional fan) and especially made for this line of CPUs, I was expecting it to at least maintain base clocks without issue. This is in a relatively restrictive case (Corsair Carbide 400Q), but removing the front panel to allow free airflow to the dual 140mm intake fans makes no noticeable difference. I haven't tested it open-air yet, nor checked if the thermal paste spread properly - I'll try to get both done in the near future.

Now, I never could wrap my head around the various Ryzen temperature offsets and how they're displayed in various tools, but the CPU is pegged at 68 degrees in every tool I have (Ryzen Master, Asus whatsitsname-it-came-with-the-motherboard, HWMonitor), so I'm assuming that's actual temperature and not some sort of "temperature minus an arbitrary offset" thing. Which is, of course, not all that high to begin with. I'd be entirely comfortable letting the chip run hotter than this to sustain base clocks, if that's needed. According to Guru3D, the offset for TR19xx chips is +27 degrees, which would mean that either 68 degrees is the actual temperature, or my 180W CPU is running at ~41 degrees C under full load. That sounds ... unreasonable, so I'm leaning towards the former. Unless, of course, either Guru3D has it the wrong way around or all three of these tools (Including AMD's own) are erroneously subtracting the offset twice and the real temperature is actually ~95 degrees. That doesn't sound likely to me, but the number sure sounds more reasonable as a maximum allowed temperature for the chip.

So: when the readout says 68 degrees, is that correct? And if so, how can I loosen this restriction to allow the CPU to stretch its legs? And if not, why on earth is this cooler not living up to its specifications?
 
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#2
What thermal paste are you running? the crap that's normally included? Have you tried reseating the cooler? Is the fan speed running on auto or manual?

nor checked if the thermal paste spread properly
This may be the problem, did you use a sufficient amount of thermal paste? It could even be the cooler that isn't making proper contact with the ihs - I had this problem with my xeon x5650 rig with a dark rock 3 - temps soared and I had to reinstall the cooler and it solved the problem.

And one final question, are you running auto voltage in the bios for the vcore?
 
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#3
What thermal paste are you running? the crap that's normally included? Have you tried reseating the cooler? Is the fan speed running on auto or manual?
I've set the fan curve to max out above 60 degrees, so the fan is running at its maximum ~1300rpm. Intake and exhaust fans are also linked to CPU temp. The "crap" paste included with the NH-U14S is Noctua NT-H1, which is quite good, applied liberally and in the recommended pattern ("X with dots") for Threadripper. As I said, I haven't tried reseating it or checking for thermal paste spread, as I didn't have time for that yesterday, but if that was the issue I would kind of expect more problems than this given the high thermal load - either harsher throttling or instability.
 
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#4
The "crap" paste included with the NH-U14S is Noctua NT-H1
That's fair enough, now that's out of the picture I definitely think it's a contact problem though, if it isn't it's the autovoltage ramping up the vcore causing higher heat output - please go into your bios and change it from an "auto vcore" in the overclock settings to the stated auto voltage, this way it's not shoving 1.4v+ randomly and blasting out more heat unnecessarily.
 
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#5
That's fair enough, now that's out of the picture I definitely think it's a contact problem though, if it isn't it's the autovoltage ramping up the vcore causing higher heat output - please go into your bios and change it from an "auto vcore" in the overclock settings to the stated auto voltage, this way it's not shoving 1.4v+ randomly and blasting out more heat unnecessarily.
That sounds like it would be worth checking out. IIRC, the motherboard software reported a VCore in the high 1.2 range (I want to say 1.27-ish, but I wasn't paying that much attention to this) while OCCT was running, but of course software readings aren't exactly reliable. One question: does adjusting this manually this trip the CPU into "overclocked" state where it disables any/all power saving features?

I don't think I'll have the time to reseat the cooler today, but it'll get done as soon as I can get to it.
 
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#6
the motherboard software reported a VCore in the high 1.2 range (I want to say 1.27-ish, but I wasn't paying that much attention to this) while OCCT was running,
Default vcore sits around 1.22v - Adjusting it manually will not affect power saving features, they are in the bios settings, I'd make sure they're still enabled after setting the vcore, It could be easily going over 1.22v during load - or at least have voltage spikes which will cause excessive heat to be put out from the die.
 
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#7
Default vcore sits around 1.22v - Adjusting it manually will not affect power saving features, they are in the bios settings, I'd make sure they're still enabled after setting the vcore, It could be easily going over 1.22v during load - or at least have voltage spikes which will cause excessive heat to be put out from the die.
Thanks, I'll definitely have to look into that! :)
 
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#8
Thanks, I'll definitely have to look into that! :)
No problem, according to the internet it seems to be a common issue for random temp spikes / heating up high temps under load, it's worth a check.
 
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#9
In case you haven't, you may want to give this a read.

Something doesn't add up: the cooler should be performing better then it is in your system: suggest you double check your setup.
 
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#10
In case you haven't, you may want to give this a read.

Something doesn't add up: the cooler should be performing better then it is in your system: suggest you double check your setup.
Well, one immediate takeaway is that it seems the fan on my cooler falls around the lower extreme of fan speed variance; it barely exceeds 1300rpm, while the rating is 1500. I've learnt to expect a variance of +/- 10% from the rated speed of any fan (actually, Noctua's spec sheet states this too), but this is then actually ~13%. (For comparison, one of my "1850rpm" Gentle Typhoons runs up to ~2050rpm.) Suppose I should look into that as well, but at least I know I left the low-noise adapter in the box, so this isn't PEBKAC (well, at least in that way) :p

Other than that, results aren't that far off, though mine are obviously a bit high (or low, if we're talking clocks). They run 4 more cores at ~500MHz more, but with a process advantage (12nm vs. 14nm, even if "12" is just a refined 14nm) and an open-air test bench rather than a case built for silence. If anything, this tells me that I shouldn't expect a miraculous improvement whatever I do. But also that I might want to get a fan that delivers its rated speed, if nothing else helps.
 
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#11
Well, one immediate takeaway is that it seems the fan on my cooler falls around the lower extreme of fan speed variance; it barely exceeds 1300rpm, while the rating is 1500. I've learnt to expect a variance of +/- 10% from the rated speed of any fan (actually, Noctua's spec sheet states this too), but this is then actually ~13%. (For comparison, one of my "1850rpm" Gentle Typhoons runs up to ~2050rpm.) Suppose I should look into that as well, but at least I know I left the low-noise adapter in the box, so this isn't PEBKAC (well, at least in that way) :p

Other than that, results aren't that far off, though mine are obviously a bit high (or low, if we're talking clocks). They run 4 more cores at ~500MHz more, but with a process advantage (12nm vs. 14nm, even if "12" is just a refined 14nm) and an open-air test bench rather than a case built for silence. If anything, this tells me that I shouldn't expect a miraculous improvement whatever I do. But also that I might want to get a fan that delivers its rated speed, if nothing else helps.
Wouldn't that be grounds to have the fan / cooler RMAed? Perhaps too much of a hassle, maybe. They do have 6 year warranty, right?

On a "normal" processor, that fan variance would be pretty much insignificant but, with bigger amount of cores, it can be an issue.

Have you tried to hook up the fan someplace else, to eliminate the fan header as the problem? Probably stupid, but it would rule out that connector as being an issue, no?
 

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#12
I am unsure if it has already been mentioned did you make sure to check the base for any plastic film or cover on the heat sink?
 
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#13
Noctua NH-U14S-TR4 is good for running at stock. Noctua NT-1 dont spread well on its own. You need to spread it.
Here is a video about TIM application on TR4:

And on HWinfo tdie is the real temperature of the cpu.
 
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#14
Wouldn't that be grounds to have the fan / cooler RMAed? Perhaps too much of a hassle, maybe. They do have 6 year warranty, right?

On a "normal" processor, that fan variance would be pretty much insignificant but, with bigger amount of cores, it can be an issue.

Have you tried to hook up the fan someplace else, to eliminate the fan header as the problem? Probably stupid, but it would rule out that connector as being an issue, no?
I haven't connected the fan anywhere else, though I suppose I ought to. I might also switch the header over to voltage control from PWM to see if it for some reason should run faster. And yeah, I suppose the fan speed would be grounds for an RMA (it's out of spec, after all), but I haven't actually gotten a receipt for the replacement yet (pretty sure the store is trying to trick its way out of paying me back the difference between the Enermax AIO I RMA'd and this cooler), so RMAing it would be yet another hassle. The PC has been out of commission long enough for me not to bother right now.

@Xx Tek Tip xX I tried what you said, setting Vcore manually to 1.2500 (the closest possible to the stock 1.2770 indicated by the BIOS), and this seems to have had some effect, as it took a while longer for throttling to kick in running OCCT. I also enabled the ASUS EPU somethingorother, which was for some reason disabled (I haven't touched it, and the BIOS only says to disable it if you're OCing, which I'm not). Still throttling after ~5 minutes though, but not as far (hovering around 3.1GHz). The Asus software reports VCore at 1.256V or 1.277V while running OCCT now, while HWMonitor reports 1.308V. Suppose there's room for some potential undervolting, but I'm wary of tweaking this too far without significant stability testing given that the PC is used for overnight video renders and stability is paramount.

I am unsure if it has already been mentioned did you make sure to check the base for any plastic film or cover on the heat sink?
I have built a PC before ;) Also, Noctua doesn't seem to do that kind of shenanigans, the cooler came with a hard plastic "case" around the cold plate, no film.

Then I removed, re-pasted and remounted the cooler. If anything, there was a bit too much paste on there (pics look worse than real life), and it hadn't spread entirely into a couple of corners (not that that should matter for thermals on such a gigantic IHS).


I cleaned it off with rubbing alcohol and applied a new layer.This time I went for Noctua's (rather than AMD's) recommended paste application: a 3x3 grid of 2-3mm dots with a 2x2 grid of 4-5mm dots in between (essentially on top of the dice). Given that the X-with-dots method ended up with too much paste, this seemed sensible. A quick mount and removal shows pretty much perfect spread, and a visibly thinner layer of paste. Sold.



It still throttled ever so slightly after ... around 10 minutes or so in OCCT? Something like that. Pulling the front case panel off stabilized it at 3.5 GHz now. Removing the front dust filter now has the package temp at 64 degrees and all cores rock-solid at 3.5 after half an hour. I guess the take-away here is that for long renders, the front panel should be removed if possible. It's still far less noisy than the old Enermax AIO (regardless of its stated 500W rating). The difference in heat dissipation is non-trivial: before, it sustained power draws of ~140W (as reported by HWMonitor), while now it deals beautifully with ~180W.

I guess the moral of the story is to check your paste application if your CPU is too large for the "dot in the middle" method, and check if your motherboard's stock voltage settings are stupid.

Noctua NH-U14S-TR4 is good for running at stock. Noctua NT-1 dont spread well on its own. You need to spread it.
Here is a video about TIM application on TR4:
It spread beautifully for me, see above. It's not quite as goopy as the Kryonaut I normally use, but I don't see any reason to need to spread this manually unless mounting pressure is very low. It's not like ... can't remember its name, but some diamond-based paste I bought in the late 00's, where the syringe needed a 5-minute soak in a cup of boiled water just to be able to get it out in the first place. Stopped using that pretty quickly :p


Oh, btw, has anyone else here had a Carbide 400Q or 400C and struggled with the idiotic front panel mount? I can't have removed the panel more than 10-15 times, yet already two of the mounting clips have snapped. That is some seriously bogus build quality, and it's not like using less force is an option with this stupid design. Otherwise a good case, but that front panel mount is garbage.
 

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#15
I haven't connected the fan anywhere else, though I suppose I ought to. I might also switch the header over to voltage control from PWM to see if it for some reason should run faster. And yeah, I suppose the fan speed would be grounds for an RMA (it's out of spec, after all), but I haven't actually gotten a receipt for the replacement yet (pretty sure the store is trying to trick its way out of paying me back the difference between the Enermax AIO I RMA'd and this cooler), so RMAing it would be yet another hassle. The PC has been out of commission long enough for me not to bother right now.

@Xx Tek Tip xX I tried what you said, setting Vcore manually to 1.2500 (the closest possible to the stock 1.2770 indicated by the BIOS), and this seems to have had some effect, as it took a while longer for throttling to kick in running OCCT. I also enabled the ASUS EPU somethingorother, which was for some reason disabled (I haven't touched it, and the BIOS only says to disable it if you're OCing, which I'm not). Still throttling after ~5 minutes though, but not as far (hovering around 3.1GHz). The Asus software reports VCore at 1.256V or 1.277V while running OCCT now, while HWMonitor reports 1.308V. Suppose there's room for some potential undervolting, but I'm wary of tweaking this too far without significant stability testing given that the PC is used for overnight video renders and stability is paramount.


I have built a PC before ;) Also, Noctua doesn't seem to do that kind of shenanigans, the cooler came with a hard plastic "case" around the cold plate, no film.

Then I removed, re-pasted and remounted the cooler. If anything, there was a bit too much paste on there (pics look worse than real life), and it hadn't spread entirely into a couple of corners (not that that should matter for thermals on such a gigantic IHS).


I cleaned it off with rubbing alcohol and applied a new layer.This time I went for Noctua's (rather than AMD's) recommended paste application: a 3x3 grid of 2-3mm dots with a 2x2 grid of 4-5mm dots in between (essentially on top of the dice). Given that the X-with-dots method ended up with too much paste, this seemed sensible. A quick mount and removal shows pretty much perfect spread, and a visibly thinner layer of paste. Sold.



It still throttled ever so slightly after ... around 10 minutes or so in OCCT? Something like that. Pulling the front case panel off stabilized it at 3.5 GHz now. Removing the front dust filter now has the package temp at 64 degrees and all cores rock-solid at 3.5 after half an hour. I guess the take-away here is that for long renders, the front panel should be removed if possible. It's still far less noisy than the old Enermax AIO (regardless of its stated 500W rating). The difference in heat dissipation is non-trivial: before, it sustained power draws of ~140W (as reported by HWMonitor), while now it deals beautifully with ~180W.

I guess the moral of the story is to check your paste application if your CPU is too large for the "dot in the middle" method, and check if your motherboard's stock voltage settings are stupid.


It spread beautifully for me, see above. It's not quite as goopy as the Kryonaut I normally use, but I don't see any reason to need to spread this manually unless mounting pressure is very low. It's not like ... can't remember its name, but some diamond-based paste I bought in the late 00's, where the syringe needed a 5-minute soak in a cup of boiled water just to be able to get it out in the first place. Stopped using that pretty quickly :p


Oh, btw, has anyone else here had a Carbide 400Q or 400C and struggled with the idiotic front panel mount? I can't have removed the panel more than 10-15 times, yet already two of the mounting clips have snapped. That is some seriously bogus build quality, and it's not like using less force is an option with this stupid design. Otherwise a good case, but that front panel mount is garbage.
I have built many myself, never encountered such a problem.

Only time things like that happen is if hsf base isnt level, over or under tightening of any mounting screws, plastic sleeve. Being a lga setup make sure the securing screw is fully down on the lock plate.
 
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#16
I have built many myself, never encountered such a problem.

Only time things like that happen is if hsf base isnt level, over or under tightening of any mounting screws, plastic sleeve. Being a lga setup make sure the securing screw is fully down on the lock plate.
Not quite sure what you're referring to with each sentence here. Is the fist regarding the case? If so: that's odd. I've been removing it by pulling from the bottom (as the manual says), but given that there's only a tiny plastic lip to grab onto there (and nothing to brace against, which is necessary given the sheer force required to make it pop off), it's not exactly easy. I've spent the past couple of minutes carefully wiggling the remaining tabs back and forth in hopes of softening the plastic a bit, as I'd imagine breaking off more of them would be problematic. Oh well.

As for the cooler screws, they have been tightened until they stop on both mounts, so no difference there. One of the nice things about the TR4 socket, there's no doubt when you've tightened your cooler sufficiently, as the screws stop hard.

Pretty sure this was caused by a combination of factors: a bit too much paste, a restrictive case, and the motherboard supplying more voltage than necessary. Not that it's overly scientific, but here's the difference between the OCCT runs yesterday, today after changing VCore settings, and after remounting the cooler. Note that at around 10:00 in the last one I remove the front case panel.

Edit: damn, disregard the first one.I just remembered that the PC restarted for a Windows update in the middle of the main run yesterday (yay!), so there's no log. At least you can see how quickly it throttled!


 

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#17
Given that the cooler is rated for 250W (albeit with an additional fan) and especially made for this line of CPUs
First of all, you are misleading yourself here a bit. I reviewed that cooler back in 2013, well before the TR chips were ever out. It was merely adapted to fit your CPU ;)

Second, the TDP of that CPU is quite high considering when the cooler was made. There is a reason Noctua recommends the second fan as the original cooler was only meant to handle 165W chips.

Third, get in contact with Noctua directly. They are very friendly, and will go to all lengths to work through your "issues."
 
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#18
First of all, you are misleading yourself here a bit. I reviewed that cooler back in 2013, well before the TR chips were ever out. It was merely adapted to fit your CPU ;)

Second, the TDP of that CPU is quite high considering when the cooler was made. There is a reason Noctua recommends the second fan as the original cooler was only meant to handle 165W chips.

Third, get in contact with Noctua directly. They are very friendly, and will go to all lengths to work through your "issues."
I know it wasn't designed from the ground up for Threadripper, but it's a high-TDP cooler with a full-cover cold plate, which is about as good as you get for a platform like this (at least while fitting inside of a 400Q - I think there's about 2mm clearance between the cooler and the side panel). Not to mention that they must have been kind of prescient when designing it, given how wide the heat pipes are at the bottom, which I suppose is why the large cold plate was such an easy add-on. Also, Noctua's TDP guide is pretty clear on it supporting the 1920X at 180W with no extra fan or anything else. Not too surprising, given that Intel X99/X299 chips have always been overclockable, and overclocking them seems rather common, even with air coolers like this.

I'll definitely try to get in touch with noctua, though, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks! I'd be surprised if they didn't want to see a receipt, but you never know :)
 

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#19
Also, Noctua's TDP guide is pretty clear on it supporting the 1920X at 180W with no extra fan or anything else.
To me, as a user, I see five 180W TDP CPUs. if it is needed for some, chances are it is "desired" for all of them. Not sure why some are or aren't recommended, but I were buying it, I would opt for the second fan too. Just sayin ;)

Also, you are correct, Noctua will ask for some form of proof of purchase.
 
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#20
@Xx Tek Tip xX I tried what you said, setting Vcore manually to 1.2500 (the closest possible to the stock 1.2770 indicated by the BIOS), and this seems to have had some effect, as it took a while longer for throttling to kick in running OCCT. I also enabled the ASUS EPU somethingorother, which was for some reason disabled (I haven't touched it, and the BIOS only says to disable it if you're OCing, which I'm not). Still throttling after ~5 minutes though, but not as far (hovering around 3.1GHz). The Asus software reports VCore at 1.256V or 1.277V while running OCCT now, while HWMonitor reports 1.308V. Suppose there's room for some potential undervolting, but I'm wary of tweaking this too far without significant stability testing given that the PC is used for overnight video renders and stability is paramount.
Well it helped, I guess the cooler isn't up to the task.
 
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#21
I haven't connected the fan anywhere else, though I suppose I ought to. I might also switch the header over to voltage control from PWM to see if it for some reason should run faster. And yeah, I suppose the fan speed would be grounds for an RMA (it's out of spec, after all), but I haven't actually gotten a receipt for the replacement yet (pretty sure the store is trying to trick its way out of paying me back the difference between the Enermax AIO I RMA'd and this cooler), so RMAing it would be yet another hassle. The PC has been out of commission long enough for me not to bother right now.
If you indeed end up requiring to RMA, you don't absolutely need the invoice:

We strictly require a valid proof of purchase (electronic version or scan/photo of the invoice) of both a Noctua CPU cooler and either an AM4 motherboard or AM4 CPU in order to process your request. In case you've lost the invoice of your Noctua CPU cooler, please write your full name and the current date on a piece of paper, take a photo of the paper next to your CPU cooler and upload it as proof of purchase. Please note that your name has to be clearly readable and that we can't process requests without proper proof of purchase.
Here's what i did when i needed the AM4 kit to be able to use my (quite) old Noctua cooler with my processor.

EDIT

To me, as a user, I see five 180W TDP CPUs. if it is needed for some, chances are it is "desired" for all of them. Not sure why some are or aren't recommended, but I were buying it, I would opt for the second fan too. Just sayin ;)

Also, you are correct, Noctua will ask for some form of proof of purchase.
Even though the rated TDP is 250, based on how quickly it can escalate depending on the loads used, i'd also recommend using a 2nd fan.

That said, according to the pic below, you shouldn't have to get a 2nd fan unless you're OCing, which you're not.

Screenshot from 2018-10-11 20-50-09.png
 
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#22
I believe some TR4 sockets would cause some coolers to not fit properly.
 
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#23
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#24
Those that are suggesting the second fan on that cooler have a good idea.
That will put a stop to your heat problems with that CPU/Cooler combination right away.

Just for the heck of it, post a pic of the cooler inside your case, please. Thanks.
 
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#25
@Valantar : what mainboard is the 1920X fitted on?

Compatibility: https://noctua.at/en/support/compatibility-lists/socket

Just click on "> TR4" or scroll down all the way to the bottom and click on the appropriate board.
The motherboard is the Asus ROG Strix X399-E Gaming. It's listed as fully compatible (as is every other TR4 motherboard except for the Zenith Extreme, which has a PCIe clearance issue).

Suppose I might get a second fan somewhere down the line then. Does it really make that much of a difference on a mid-sized heatsink like this? Outside of once sticking two fans on a Hyper 212 Evo (where it didn't even shift temps 1 degree), my only real experience with push-pull setups is for water cooling, where it makes no difference at all unless you have a very thick radiator and really need the static pressure. Of course, a heatsink like this is far thicker than most radiators, so I guess that kind of explains why it might work better?

I'll look into getting a pic of the cooler in the case the next time I bother to pull it out from under the desk :p
 
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