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To clarify, I am NOT saying you cannot do this in a dishwasher - only that you need to know the risks and that includes knowing how each board is constructed and populated. But because most users don't have that information, I say this should be a last resort option, and only if willing to sacrifice the board.

If dunking in a liquid solution is still desired, then I recommend using an ultrasonic cleaner for electronics with a proper solution designed to dry rapidly without leaving any residue.
 
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Interesting about dishwashers there - at least in Sweden. I do know when I lived in England, our dishwasher was indeed connected to the hot water only. But that was in the 80s.

Hot water connection is normal here in the US. Why? Because it takes a lot more energy to heat the water in a dishwasher than in the water heater - which typically are preset to 120 - 140°F (49 - 60°C). This is why most dishwasher manuals say to run the kitchen sink's hot water until hot water comes out the faucet. This helps ensure only hat water enters the dishwasher, minimizing the need for the electronic heating element to come on.
49°C? In the hot water tank? Holy crap, legionnaire's desease has to be scarily common in those parts. That is just too low for safety. Who on earth agreed to those standards?

That being said, if your hot water is that cold, no wonder things are connected directly to it. That's a useful temperature range. It just also happens to be potentially deadly.

I don't think you're right about the efficiency aspect though. Heating the exact amount of water you need, where you need it, is always more efficient than heating a large volume and transporting it. The only exception would be if the dishwasher had zero insulation around its reservoir/heater. Other than that, heat losses in the unit would be essentially the same, with the only difference being the one with local heating possibly taking a few minutes more per run (though it's not like they wait till the water is warm to start rinsing, so likely not). But you wouldn't have any heat losses during transport, which can be quite noticeable in thin copper pipes.
And again - no it is not - not unless you know for a fact, nothing on that specific board, and the PCB itself, can tolerate it.
The PCB can - it's fiberglass and resin, neither of which are sensitive to water. Copper can corrode in water, but that takes a long, long time. Dry it properly and it is 100% problem free.
There is definitely a risk, especially if the board has a speaker.
Speakers can be a risk, but how many boards these days have those? For older boards, I would probably just pour a decent amount of IPA into the speaker to drive out any water left over before heating it to dry. IPA is an excellent drying agent, and does wonders for getting water out of annoying places.
To clarify, I am NOT saying you cannot do this in a dishwasher - only that you need to know the risks and that includes knowing how each board is constructed and populated. But because most users don't have that information, I say this should be a last resort option, and only if willing to sacrifice the board.

If dunking in a liquid solution is still desired, then I recommend using an ultrasonic cleaner for electronics with a proper solution designed to dry rapidly without leaving any residue.
... Except you responded to a video covering how to do this safely, including a bunch of caveats and precautions...
 
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49°C? In the hot water tank? Holy crap, legionnaire's desease has to be scarily common in those parts.
Huh? Not hardly. First, 122°F will kill legionnaires in a couple hours. And since these heaters work with thermostats that cycle the temp to even higher temps, it does not take hours.

But more importantly, all our water is properly treated with chlorine, UV, and other measures to kill essentially all microbial waterborne pathogens, including those that can cause typhoid fever, dysentery, cholera and Legionnaires' disease. Even rural homes on local well water treat the incoming water.

The bigger problem we have here, which is slowly being addressed, is in older buildings that still have lead pipes.
 
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I love how this thread has degenerated into an argument over what temperature water will kill legionnaire's disease.

People clean PCBs in dishwashers all the time. Just use no detergent, salt, or rinse-aid, and give it AMPLE time to dry. Once you think it's dry all over, bung it into a fan oven at 105C for half an hour to make any trapped water into steam. It was kind of a tongue-in-cheek suggestion, but if the board's been left outside and exposed to rain and other debris in the skip, there's a small (but non-zero) chance that dirt is causing the problem.

I've been cleaning PCBs in dishwashers for nearly 30 years with a 100% success rate. Zero kills to date and dozens, hell maybe even hundreds of successful cleans. It's not a miracle cure for damaged hardware but if the sticky goop covering SMTs is capactitive or conductive, getting rid of it can only be a good thing.

Dishwasher is fine, but it won't remove flux; for that I use isopropyl alcohol but avoid acetone.

Most of my computers were picked up after being dumped.
On the plus side, you don't need to remove flux.
 
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°Huh? Not hardly. First, 122°F will kill legionnaires in a couple hours. And since these heaters work with thermostats that cycle the temp to even higher temps, it does not take hours.
Sorry, but that's inaccurate. 50°C will kill most legionella bacteria in a few hours, but:
- if your tank's thermostat is set to 50°C, some part of it will always be colder than that
- it's not like the tank refuses to give off water if it's recently been topped up and the temperature hasn't been high for long enough
- most is not all, and any bacteria leaving your tank can colonize a faucet, showerhead, or other water outlet
- If your tank is set to 50°C, you'll never see 50°C at any point beyond a meter or two outside of the tank due to thermal losses in the pipes, which again leaves lots of room for bacteria growth.

Now, thermal cycling to somewhere like 70°C or higher at regular intervals would absolutely help, but only partially. It's still risky in terms of bacterial growth at water outlets.

If this site is even remotely trustworthy, the situation for legionella prevention in the US is ... shaky at best.
But more importantly, all our water is properly treated with chlorine, UV, and other measures to kill essentially all microbial waterborne pathogens, including those that can cause typhoid fever, dysentery, cholera and Legionnaires' disease. Even rural homes on local well water treat the incoming water.
That's a given. But no water treatment is perfect, nor can any water treatment (that leaves the water safe for human consumption, at least) stave off bacterial contamination from leaky pipes, poor connections, or other sources of contamination.


But, getting back to the thing that was at least related to the topic: if your water is 50°C, as you say, why on earth are you worried about exposing a PCB to that? The air inside your case is likely close to that temperature when the system is under load. A hot CPU or GPU is twice that, and the CPU sinks a significant amount of that heat directly into the copper layers of the motherboard below the socket. A hot VRM even higher. 50, 60, even 70°C are not harmful to a PCB whatsoever, unless it's got unrelated serious problems or is being seriously mistreated while seeing those temperatures.
I love how this thread has degenerated into an argument over what temperature water will kill legionnaire's disease.
No no nonono, it has improved into an argument over that :D
On the plus side, you don't need to remove flux.
Some flux can be corrosive and needs to be removed - but the kinds they use in PCB production aren't, and if they were, no respectable PCB maker would allow a product with that left on it to pass QC.
 
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@Valantar - it does not matter so why are you fussing over this? As Chrispy_ notes, this is WAY OT. Legionnaires from our water supplies is NOT and has never been of any significant concern here. Problems have happened from cooling towers/ventilation systems - which have nothing to do with our drinking water.

Moving on.
 
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I got another AM3+ board today, a gigabyte ga-78lmt today with a FX8320E in it. it posts fine. With the 8320 in it, no post, if put the 8320E in the 990 board it does the same, PSU just goes off, board does nothing, no lights, nothing. With the 8320 in the GA-78LMT no post. Should the 8320 be supported in the 78LMT?
I used to have rev 5 of that same board, it's frankly e-waste tier. VRMS are really weak and get really hot. Those boards had 95W CPU support limit and even then could throttle. Only rev 3 had heatsink on VRMs and could support 125 watt chips, but it still has basically all the same components.

The 78LMT definitely does as a 8320E is in effect a 8320, and both are on the supported list, and i am pretty sure a 990fx does support a 8320/E
Definitely check the revision of board, only rev 3 supports typical 125 watt chips.

Yep - The CPU is dead.
Basically any AM3+ board should support a 8320 chip.
Low end AM3+ boards, particularly the ones with 760G chips had 95 watt limitation. Most AM3+ board also have 125 watt limitation and don't support FX 9370 and FX 9590.
 

eidairaman1

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I still have my skt A rig, just need a place so I can test and mod.

I love how this thread has degenerated into an argument over what temperature water will kill legionnaire's disease.

People clean PCBs in dishwashers all the time. Just use no detergent, salt, or rinse-aid, and give it AMPLE time to dry. Once you think it's dry all over, bung it into a fan oven at 105C for half an hour to make any trapped water into steam. It was kind of a tongue-in-cheek suggestion, but if the board's been left outside and exposed to rain and other debris in the skip, there's a small (but non-zero) chance that dirt is causing the problem.

I've been cleaning PCBs in dishwashers for nearly 30 years with a 100% success rate. Zero kills to date and dozens, hell maybe even hundreds of successful cleans. It's not a miracle cure for damaged hardware but if the sticky goop covering SMTs is capactitive or conductive, getting rid of it can only be a good thing.


On the plus side, you don't need to remove flux.
Only other thing I can suggest is electronic grade contact cleaner or 90% isopropanol out of a pressurized can.
 
D

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I still have my skt A rig, just need a place so I can test and mod.


Only other thing I can suggest is electronic grade contact cleaner or 90% isopropanol out of a pressurized can.

The socket A does seemingly work, got a VGA lead for the video card but nothing to plug it into, possibly might have a old Tv that has VGA though. Will have a look tonight. Glad my mate kept his stash of SD ram. I'll keep it for nostalgia I reckon.

The Socket A board works. Got 2x 256mb PC133 in it, set the FSB? to 133 and it rebooted fine. Nice
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The 6970 was slower than the 5970, the 6870 was slower than the 5870, and the 6850 was slower than the 5850.
Then you’re even worse informed. Comparing a dual GPU board to a single GPU, it seems you forgot a lot or never even knew. The 5970 doesn’t compete with the 6970 it competes with the 6990 (and GTX 590) and also loses easily to it. Completely wrong what you said. The 6970 competes directly with the 580 and the 5870 and loses to the former and beats the latter. Same with 6950 vs 570 and 5850. Same with 6870 vs 560(Ti) and 5770. Etc.
 
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I guess the 6670 is a bit poo, but ok for a spare though i guess
 
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I guess the 6670 is a bit poo, but ok for a spare though i guess
Everything is a bit poo once driver support is something that hasn't been updated for 6 years.
If it puts out a display and runs the desktop/Youtube it's no worse than the army of GT730 cards people are using all around the world today.
Then you’re even worse informed. Comparing a dual GPU board to a single GPU, it seems you forgot a lot or never even knew. The 5970 doesn’t compete with the 6970 it competes with the 6990 (and GTX 590) and also loses easily to it. Completely wrong what you said. The 6970 competes directly with the 580 and the 5870 and loses to the former and beats the latter. Same with 6950 vs 570 and 5850. Same with 6870 vs 560(Ti) and 5770. Etc.
Deflection, your honour!

What's dual-GPU vs single-GPU got to do with it? You said the 6970 was faster than the 5970, it's not. I'm comparing those two cards exact models because you are 100% convinced this perfect line of utter BS is the truth.
the 6970 is 20% faster than the 5970 and eats more power as well.
That would be a "wrong" and a "wrong again"

I've aleady linked the review and cited more sources. You're denying absolutely indisputable, ironclad evidence from Anandtech, THG, and this very site that you're a member of. Are you saying that they were all wrong and you're right? That's what it looks like from here... :kookoo:
 
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Only other thing I can suggest is electronic grade contact cleaner or 90% isopropanol out of a pressurized can.

Maybe someone knows why they tend to sell 91% isopropyl alcohol: why 91% and not 90%?
 
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Maybe someone knows why they tend to sell 91% isopropyl alcohol: why 91% and not 90%?
Might be a regulatory safety mandate in the US related to storing flammable liquids?

Putting a bit of water it it makes it way less volatile and raises the flashpoint. You still get most of the cleaning/antiseptic/disinfectant benefits even if it's only 70/30.

Here in Europe 99.9% IPA is common as muck again (it shot up in price by an order of magnitude when the pandemic was in full effect)

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What's dual-GPU vs single-GPU got to do with it? You said the 6970 was faster than the 5970, it's not.
Too bad I’ve never said that (oh my typo doesn’t qualify). :) No deflection and the discussion was never a real discussion since I was in the right from second 1. Just accept you’re wrong and move on. Unless you wanna base your entire (wrong) point on nitpicking on my typo? You said 6000 series was slower than 5000 series because it was build on efficiency. Hahaha. My first answer already adequately put that nonsense to rest. Doesn’t matter if I made a typo there, what you said was still 100% wrong.

I can blame AMDs weird naming for the mix up, on what can you blame your whole post being complete nonsense? Aside, 5000 gen was more efficient than 6000 gen. So the opposite of what you said is true as well. 6000 gen competed against GTX 500 series so AMD was forced to clock the cards higher and thus less efficiency.

Yea, I know who’s deflecting here.
 
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I guess the 6670 is a bit poo, but ok for a spare though i guess
For its time It was a compelling buy like the 6750/6770.

Maybe someone knows why they tend to sell 91% isopropyl alcohol: why 91% and not 90%?
Idk, i use isopropanol at work with a 54°F flash point
 
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The socket A board is on a book in the pics btw, not on the carpet/mat
 
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Too bad I’ve never said that (oh my typo doesn’t qualify). :) No deflection and the discussion was never a real discussion since I was in the right from second 1. Just accept you’re wrong and move on. Unless you wanna base your entire (wrong) point on nitpicking on my typo? You said 6000 series was slower than 5000 series because it was build on efficiency. Hahaha. My first answer already adequately put that nonsense to rest. Doesn’t matter if I made a typo there, what you said was still 100% wrong.

I can blame AMDs weird naming for the mix up, on what can you blame your whole post being complete nonsense? Aside, 5000 gen was more efficient than 6000 gen. So the opposite of what you said is true as well. 6000 gen competed against GTX 500 series so AMD was forced to clock the cards higher and thus less efficiency.

Yea, I know who’s deflecting here.
You started this mad argument by saying that the 6000-series was 20% faster than the 5000-series.
I'm still waiting for any kind of actual reasoning that addresses that fact. because it's largely untrue for the series as a whole. Cedar and Juniper dies were just rebranded parts, no change to core counts or clockspeeds, ergo no change to performance at all because a new label on the box is just that.

Turks, Bars and Cayman were the three new dies:
  • Turks was 20% larger and 50% more expensive than Redwood, but bottlenecked hard by something (probably ROPs or memory) and so the HD6600-series was barely 10% faster than the cheaper HD5600-series.
  • Barts was 30% smaller than Cypress, but less ROP-bottlenecked so only ~15% slower (HD 6800-series). This was the popular mainstream choice and AMD were keen to point out that it was almost as fast for a much lower cost - which was true if you compared launch price vs launch price, and still somewhat valid for street prices of the 5800-series.
  • Cayman (HD 6900-series) didn't have an equivalent in the 5000-series, other than the crossfire-on-a-stick that was the HD 5970.
Importantly,
  • the single Cayman HD 6970 couldn't match the dual-Cypress HD 5970 - victory to the 5000-series
  • the cut-down Cayman HD 6950 was a dead match for the much smaller, cheaper single Cypress HD 5870 - victory again to the 5000-series
  • Comparing the 6970 to the 5870 is grossly unfair. It cost way more, used more power, was higher-clocked, had more texture units, and more expensive, faster GDDR5. It wasn't remotely a competing class which is why it was given the numbering (and pricing) of the next class up the hierarchy.
In an attempt to try and make any sense whatsoever of the things you're saying, you seem to be basing your entire argument off that last line - claiming that the largest single die from the 6000-series was faster than the largest single-die from the 5000-series. In that warped context of ignoring the larger die size, huge increase in transistor count, higher clockpseed, increased texture units, higher TDP, faster memory, and more bandwidth - then, uh - yeah. It was 11% faster according to the TPU review. That's like saying that an RTX 3070 is faster than an RTX 2060. Of course it's faster but why are you even trying to claim that those two models were equivalent?! AMD made it nice and easy for you by just changing the first digit.

I just don't know why I have to explain this to you; All of the original reviews that explain what I've just summarised are still up on the internet - all you have to do is go and read them....
 
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You started this mad argument by saying that the 6000-series was 20% faster than the 5000 series.
I'm still waiting for any kind of actual reasoning that addresses that fact. because it's largely untrue for the series as a whole. Cedar and Juniper dies were just rebranded parts, no change to core counts or clockspeeds, ergo no change to performance at all because a new label on the box is just that.

Turks, Bars and Cayman were the three new dies:
  • Turks was 20% larger and 50% more expensive than Redwood, but bottlenecked hard by something (probably ROPs or memory) and so the HD6600-series was barely 10% faster than the cheaper HD5600-series.
  • Barts was 30% smaller than Cypress, but less ROP-bottlenecked so only ~15% slower (HD 6800-series). This was the popular mainstream choice and AMD were keen to point out that it was almost as fast for a much lower cost - which was true if you compared launch price vs launch price, and still somewhat valid for street prices of the 5800-series.
  • Cayman (HD 6900-series) didn't have an equivalent in the 5000-series, other than the crossfire-on-a-stick that was the HD 5970.
Importantly,
  • the single Cayman HD 6970 couldn't match the dual-Cypress HD 5970 - victory to the 5000-series
  • the cut-down Cayman HD 6950 was a dead match for the much smaller, cheaper single Cypress HD 5870 - victory again to the 5000-series
  • Comparing the 6970 to the 5870 is grossly unfair. It cost way more, used more power, was higher-clocked, had more texture units, and more expensive, faster GDDR5. It wasn't remotely a competing class which is why it was given the numbering (and pricing) of the next class up the heirarchy.
You seem to be basing your entire argument off that last line - claiming that the largest single die from the 6000-series was faster than the largest single-die from the 5000-series. In that warped context of ignoring the larger die size, huge increase in transistor count, higher clockpseed, increased texture units, higher TDP, faster memory, and more bandwidth - then, uh - yeah. It was 11% faster according to the TPU review. That's like saying that an RTX 3070 is faster than an RTX 2060. Of course it's faster and why are you even trying to claim that those two models ever competed with each other or worse - claiming that they were equivalent?!

I just don't know why I have to explain this to you; All of the original reviews that explain what I've just summarised are still up on the internet - all you have to do is go and read them....
I see a lot of nonsense here, you can talk all you want, write a whole book, doesn’t change the fact that you talked complete nonsense earlier. 6000 series is strictly faster, the 6970 still doesn’t compete with the 5970, one GPU doesn’t compete against a dual gpu crossfire board which was also way more expensive (about 50% more). The 5970 ONLY competes with the 6990, and the 6970 ONLY competes with the 5870, you’re just deflecting and abusing the weird name changes of AMD, trying to hang to a “point” which is no point. It’s nonsense to compare a dual GPU board to a single GPU board, go ask AMD if the 6970 is the direct successor to the 5970, they will laugh at you just like I did and point you to the 6990. I have enough of this, deflect and cope harder, you have 100% lost this discussion when you started it. And I want to remind you, you started it. Couldn’t accept the fact that you were wrong and did a mistake and were corrected. :) What a silly waste of time this was, well enough of it. What’s worse than doing a mistake, is doubling down on it, and insisting you were right instead.
 
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Might be a regulatory safety mandate in the US related to storing flammable liquids?
Nah! Because I have also seen 93% and 99% here in the U.S.

I think some differences are due to marketing hype that claims higher is better quality. But that is a fallacy.

But most differences are due to intended purpose.

Water is added as a catalyst. One thing it does is open the pores to let the alcohol in. Those pads they use before giving us an injection are just 60-70% because that is all they need to be. Hand sanitizer needs to be >74%.

>90% can be used to preserve lab specimens - or when water would otherwise be damaging.
 
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Nah! Because I have also seen 93% and 99% here in the U.S.

I think some differences are due to marketing hype that claims higher is better quality. But that is a fallacy.

But most differences are due to intended purpose.

Water is added as a catalyst. One thing it does is open the pores to let the alcohol in. Those pads they use before giving us an injection are just 60-70% because that is all they need to be. Hand sanitizer needs to be >74%.

>90% can be used to preserve lab specimens - or when water would otherwise be damaging.
My guess on the 91% v 90% question would be down to methods: probably some method of drying/refining IPA that tops out at around 91% purity (as removing the last few percent of water from any liquid that mixes with water can be rather challenging). And if you've got 91%, you say 91%, not 90%.

As for the water, it isn't added to the IPA, water (H2O) is added to propene (C3H6) to produce IPA (C3H7OH) (though there's another method that mixes acetone and hydrogen gas as well). Most likely excess water is added to the propene to ensure it's all reacted, which would produce a dilute end product, which would require some form of drying (distillation?). This would also likely be necessary to remove the (non-iso)propanol that's produced by the same reaction.
 
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Didn't mean to bring things off topic.
 
D

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Well after as many tests as i can think of, the FX8320 CPU is dead. It does get hot when it is powered up in a board, but no post. Tied it and a 8320E in the 990 board, neither CPU post. Tried it in the gig GA-78LMT, the 8320E posts soon as i press power on, the 8320 does nothing but get hot.

Any ideas of test on the 990FX board? power led on the PSU just goes off soon as i press the power on, with either CPU in the board. If not i will bin it, not even worth keeping for parts is it?
 
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Well after as many tests as i can think of, the FX8320 CPU is dead. It does get hot when it is powered up in a board, but no post. Tied it and a 8320E in the 990 board, neither CPU post. Tried it in the gig GA-78LMT, the 8320E posts soon as i press power on, the 8320 does nothing but get hot.

Any ideas of test on the 990FX board? power led on the PSU just goes off soon as i press the power on, with either CPU in the board. If not i will bin it, not even worth keeping for parts is it?
As I said before: check the vCore VRMs for shorts with a multimeter. Meter in continuity mode, black probe on any ground point, red probe along the legs around the mosfets/power stages. The PSU cutting off as the power button is pressed is very strongly indicative of a short on the motherboard, and the CPU VRM is the most likely source of such a short. The CPU getting hot is another indicator of this, as that tells us the CPU is seeing power despite the board not powering up. The good news is that it seems the VRM isn't sending 12V directly into the CPU, as your 8320E survived being installed in that board - most likely the 8320 saw 12V briefly as one of the VRM phases failed, but only for a brief moment before something inside the VRM burnt out and shorted to ground locally instead. This is of course just speculation, but it is very worth investigating, as removing a failed power stage is typically enough to get the board running again (as long as the failure hasn't damaged the PCB and caused an internal short there).
 
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As I said before: check the vCore VRMs for shorts with a multimeter. Meter in continuity mode, black probe on any ground point, red probe along the legs around the mosfets/power stages. The PSU cutting off as the power button is pressed is very strongly indicative of a short on the motherboard, and the CPU VRM is the most likely source of such a short. The CPU getting hot is another indicator of this, as that tells us the CPU is seeing power despite the board not powering up. The good news is that it seems the VRM isn't sending 12V directly into the CPU, as your 8320E survived being installed in that board - most likely the 8320 saw 12V briefly as one of the VRM phases failed, but only for a brief moment before something inside the VRM burnt out and shorted to ground locally instead. This is of course just speculation, but it is very worth investigating, as removing a failed power stage is typically enough to get the board running again (as long as the failure hasn't damaged the PCB and caused an internal short there).

I'll give it a try later. Can you mark the pic i posted of where i need to probe please?

Yeah the 8320 is definitely dead and as it was in the board when i found it, guess it was killed by the board.

IMG_0121.JPG
 
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