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No Undervolting Options for Intel 10710U?

its-my-right

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ThrottleStop 8.74
New Features
- enabled Limit Reasons access for Comet Lake Core i7-10710U.
- added IGPU INI file option to set and lock the iGPU power limit.


Guess what? It is ready. Always takes me a little longer when I do not have access to hardware.

This version unlocks the Limits button so you should have access to the Limit Reasons window. This will let you see why your CPU is throttling when stress testing.

@Drackyr - Did you try using the FIVR - Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option? That can make a big difference on some laptops, depending on what a manufacturer leaves unlocked.

When under volting the Intel GPU, you usually have to under volt the iGPU Unslice equally or else this part of your under volt will be ignored.
Thank you for the updated version !

I managed to get a stable undervolt at -101mv so I have set my undervolt at -96mv.

I'm curious about the "Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits" you talk about, but I'm not sure I understand what it does does exactly. I searched online on forums etc but didn't managed to find a good explanation about it.

Could you please explain it or provide a reference (forums, etc) that talks about this option ?

Thank you !
 

unclewebb

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Intel CPUs use a duplicate set of turbo power limits. The main set can be controlled in the ThrottleStop TPL window.

The secondary set is sometimes set by a driver. I found the best thing to do was to simply lock them so no other software or drivers can interfere with these power limits. This trick does not work on every laptop but it makes a world of difference on some of them. Checking this option is always worth trying.

There is also a third set of turbo power limits. Dell and some MSI laptops are using these. The CPU will check all of these power limits and then use the lowest value. Lower limits results in more throttling.
 
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its-my-right

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Hi,

Thank you, I understand it much better now. So, if I am are in search of performance in time, what I understand is I should activate that feature (but maybe it won't do anything because of the third limit, my laptop is an MSI...).

I'm looking at the limits window when encoding a video (200s task) and I'm seeing differents things:
- When setting Turbo max at 34 on six cores, there is no limits reasons and the PKG power is arount 44w (near the PL1 which is 45)
- When setting Turbo max at 35 on six cores, serveral Limits reasons occurs : Thermal (CPU), PL1 (CPU), EDP Other (RING) and sometimes VR Thermal (CPU, GPU and RING). Moreover, the PROCHOT 95° is then ticked whereas the maximum core temp is "only" 89°. Suddenly, the PKG power drops to around 6w for a few seconds (and ratio goes down to 11), then it goes back to 45w and ratio to 35

Since the PL1 is 45w and that value is the long power max, I do not exactly understand why this situation is happening ? Moreover, Intel lists the cTDP to 25w for this CPU, so Is that normal that PL1 is 45w and not 25w ?

Should I change something in the TPL Windows in order to improve things with a Turbo at 35 max ? Or maybe that's a sign I'm attempting to push the CPU too far ? I repasted it, but still.

The Disable & Lock TPL feature is ticked in theses two cases

Thank you very much for your time and availability :). The world of CPU tweaking is very exciting !
 

unclewebb

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Intel lists the cTDP to 25w for this CPU, so Is that normal that PL1 is 45w and not 25w ?
That is not normal at all. You or MSI are really pushing the performance envelope.
The Core i7-10710U has a TDP rating of 15 Watts. If you are able to run this CPU up to 45 Watts then you are definitely getting your money's worth out of this CPU.

whereas the maximum core temp is "only" 89°.
There are multiple temperature sensors throughout the CPU package, not just the ones on the individual cores. It is possible for the package temperature to hit 95°C even though none of the cores are reporting a temperature that high. A difference of 6°C between the peak core temperature and the peak package temperature is very unusual. Make sure you scroll down in ThrottleStop so you can see all of the core temps. Click on the PROCHOT box between tests to clear this throttling indicator. This box will not be checked again until the peak package temperature reaches 95°C.

the PROCHOT 95° is then ticked
Anytime a check mark appears in this box, this confirms that a temperature sensor somewhere on your CPU package has reached that temperature and the CPU has started thermal throttling to protect itself. This indicator is more important than any of the peak core temperatures. The CPU monitors the PROCHOT status continuously. Most monitoring software is only monitoring the temperature sensors once every second. That means the peak recorded temperature is not as reliable an indicator compared to the PROCHOT status. Even if the CPU only hits the peak PROCHOT temperature for a millisecond, this information is automatically recorded and stored in the CPU and is reported by ThrottleStop.

I am not sure what throttling methods your MSI laptop is using. If you are hitting the PROCHOT temperature then you have reached the wall. There is no use trying to push further. It would not be a bad idea at this stage to back off a little so your CPU can avoid hitting the PROCHOT temperature. I try to avoid thermal throttling.

In the Options window I would check Add Limit Reasons to Log File. Turn on the Log File option on the main ThrottleStop screen, do some encoding and when you are finished, exit ThrottleStop so it can finalize the log file. This will give you a thorough record of your CPU's performance and peak temperature. You can attach your log file to your next post if you would like me to have a look at it. You can also copy and paste the data to www.pastebin.com and then post a link here. Also post some screenshots of how you have ThrottleStop setup. The more info the better.
 

its-my-right

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That is not normal at all. You or MSI are really pushing the performance envelope.
The Core i7-10710U has a TDP rating of 15 Watts. If you are able to run this CPU up to 45 Watts then you are definitely getting your money's worth out of this CPU.
I didn't set the PL1 to 45w, this is set by MSI in the "Performance" mode they offer in Creator Center app. On the other hand, when I chose "Balanced" mode, Throttlestop shows it starts at 25w then goes down to 15w during encoding.

There are multiple temperature sensors throughout the CPU package, not just the ones on the individual cores. It is possible for the package temperature to hit 95°C even though none of the cores are reporting a temperature that high. A difference of 6°C between the peak core temperature and the peak package temperature is very unusual. Make sure you scroll down in ThrottleStop so you can see all of the core temps. Click on the PROCHOT box between tests to clear this throttling indicator. This box will not be checked again until the peak package temperature reaches 95°C.


Anytime a check mark appears in this box, this confirms that a temperature sensor somewhere on your CPU package has reached that temperature and the CPU has started thermal throttling to protect itself. This indicator is more important than any of the peak core temperatures. The CPU monitors the PROCHOT status continuously. Most monitoring software is only monitoring the temperature sensors once every second. That means the peak recorded temperature is not as reliable an indicator compared to the PROCHOT status. Even if the CPU only hits the peak PROCHOT temperature for a millisecond, this information is automatically recorded and stored in the CPU and is reported by ThrottleStop.
Yes, I paid attention to untick PROCHOT between two tests. Your explaination is very interesting, so it's an even more important indicator that I thought. Unfortunately, with the quick tests i just did, i was not able to reproduce the 6° temperature difference between peak core and peak package, maybe it's my fault and at that time I forgot to untick PROCHOT.

I am not sure what throttling methods your MSI laptop is using. If you are hitting the PROCHOT temperature then you have reached the wall. There is no use trying to push further. It would not be a bad idea at this stage to back off a little so your CPU can avoid hitting the PROCHOT temperature. I try to avoid thermal throttling.

In the Options window I would check Add Limit Reasons to Log File. Turn on the Log File option on the main ThrottleStop screen, do some encoding and when you are finished, exit ThrottleStop so it can finalize the log file. This will give you a thorough record of your CPU's performance and peak temperature. You can attach your log file to your next post if you would like me to have a look at it. You can also copy and paste the data to www.pastebin.com and then post a link here. Also post some screenshots of how you have ThrottleStop setup. The more info the better.
I've made Three tests:

In all of theses 3 tests, the undervolting settings are the following (checked stable by running a lot of times different TS BENCH without errors):
  • Core and cache : -95mv
  • iGPU, iGPU unsclice, System agent : -50mv

1 - Undervolt only - Results:

2 - Undervolt + Ratio Turbo Max 35 - Results:

3 - Undervolt + Ratio Turbo Max 34 - Results:

So I think I will stay with the 3rd profile but still I'm curious what exactly is limiting 1st and 2nd profiles.

I also made screenshots of Throttlestop settings:
TT1.PNG

TT2.PNG

TT3.PNG

TT4.PNG

If you're willing to analyse this, thank you again :)
 
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unclewebb

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I didn't set the PL1 to 45w, this is set by MSI in the "Performance" mode
It is not a good idea to have the MSI Creator Center app and ThrottleStop both trying to control your power limits. If two different programs are writing different information to the same turbo power limit register, the results might be inconsistent. The CPU will not know what program to listen to. Sometimes ThrottleStop might be in control of your CPU and sometimes the Creator Center might be in charge. Whatever program checks and writes to the power limit register the most often will win control of your CPU. If you do not want ThrottleStop to be in charge, in the TPL window, do not check the two options, Turbo Boost Long Power Max and Turbo Boost Short Power Max. This might allow you to run ThrottleStop without it interfering with the MSI control software.

If you want ThrottleStop to be in charge, do not run MSI Creator Center. If you are happy running both programs together and you do not see any serious conflicts then continue on with what you are doing. Just be aware of any fighting between these two.

Your log file shows the problem you are having. When the Multi column (CPU multiplier) drops down to 11.00, look in the far right column to find out why. It shows VRTEMP which is the temperature of your voltage regulator. The voltage regulator is overheating and instantly dropping the CPU multiplier and speed down to less than one third compared to normal. If you were playing a game or doing something important, you would instantly notice this huge drop. It is definitely a good idea to lower your CPU speed a little to avoid triggering this type of throttling. Unless you find some magic way to get the voltage regulator temps under control, this is your wall. Step away from the wall and you should be OK. Locking the maximum multiplier to 34 allows the CPU to get up close to this wall without any signs of severe VRTEMP throttling in your log file.

One thing I noticed is that during your testing, your battery was being charged. This could be part of the reason why VRTEMP throttling was being triggered. If your battery is fully charged, perhaps you can run a slightly higher multiplier without triggering the severe VRTEMP throttling that you would like to avoid.

Thanks for posting so much useful information. I usually have to beg to get that much info. One minor thing I noticed is that in the Options window, you have the AC Profile and the Battery Profile both set to profile 3. I would think that if a person was going to use this feature, they would probably want different settings (different profiles) depending on whether the CPU is plugged in or running on battery power.

If you're willing to analyse this
Always willing to analyse some data. Many users do not realize just how good a tool ThrottleStop is when it comes to trying to understand throttling problems. Providing lots of info not only helps me but it is going to help others with similar problems. Many owners, especially Dell owners, are going to be envious that you can run your Core i7-10710U with its 15 Watt TDP rating at 45 Watts without burning down your house! Good work.
 

navjack27

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Mind if I jump in here?

I have the MSI Prestige 15 A10SC and see exactly the same CPU behavior that its-my-right has been talking about. I haven't installed Throttlestop yet, or well, I did install it a bit after when I first got this laptop but soon realized I wasn't able to replicate any of the previous good scores I got in Cinebench and other benchmarks before I installed Throttlestop so I did a system restore to stock and yeah. I've just stuck with using the MSI Creator Center to change power states (since there are also zero Windows based power settings, this stuff is really 'locked down' and complex integration I guess) and HWINFO to monitor things when I need to. MSI ships the computer with a -0.065v IA voltage offset and a -0.065v cache offset but I was able to get away with more offset before I restored my OS. I just don’t think its worth fussing about with the tight system integration to get that.

I will add that its so strange how almost nothing knows what the 10710U CPUID is. Nothing knows what the iGPU is. Its like Intel didn’t prepare anyone for these chips.

EDIT: I'm slowly but surely working on a review of this laptop for my website. Just gotta get done the multiple part review of the 3950X first.

EDIT EDIT: 45w does burn the house down at 95c steady LOL but it doesn't bother me, I just use the box for the laptop as a little stand for it.
 

its-my-right

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It is not a good idea to have the MSI Creator Center app and ThrottleStop both trying to control your power limits. If two different programs are writing different information to the same turbo power limit register, the results might be inconsistent. The CPU will not know what program to listen to. Sometimes ThrottleStop might be in control of your CPU and sometimes the Creator Center might be in charge. Whatever program checks and writes to the power limit register the most often will win control of your CPU. If you do not want ThrottleStop to be in charge, in the TPL window, do not check the two options, Turbo Boost Long Power Max and Turbo Boost Short Power Max. This might allow you to run ThrottleStop without it interfering with the MSI control software.

If you want ThrottleStop to be in charge, do not run MSI Creator Center. If you are happy running both programs together and you do not see any serious conflicts then continue on with what you are doing. Just be aware of any fighting between these two.
I feel stupid because I didn't even think that could cause issues, but yeah, it seems totally logical know that you talk about it. However I've made some tests and it does not seem to interfere, meaning I've got consistent results with Throttlestop when creator center is launched or not. But to maximize safety, I think I'm going to prevent creator center from launching at startup (I don't really use it so...).

Your log file shows the problem you are having. When the Multi column (CPU multiplier) drops down to 11.00, look in the far right column to find out why. It shows VRTEMP which is the temperature of your voltage regulator. The voltage regulator is overheating and instantly dropping the CPU multiplier and speed down to less than one third compared to normal. If you were playing a game or doing something important, you would instantly notice this huge drop. It is definitely a good idea to lower your CPU speed a little to avoid triggering this type of throttling. Unless you find some magic way to get the voltage regulator temps under control, this is your wall. Step away from the wall and you should be OK. Locking the maximum multiplier to 34 allows the CPU to get up close to this wall without any signs of severe VRTEMP throttling in your log file.
I realized that those tests where done in a 18° room. I did thoses tests again in a 21° room and VRTEMP is showing as a limit with multiplier set to 34 :(. When I repasted the laptop, I under-estimated the importance of thermal pads and I've chosen cheap noname ones. I will repaste it again with Gelid extreme ones to see if that can decrease the VRTEMP.
By the way, is it dangerous if VRTEMP is limiting too much ? I mean, is it possible the VRMs could burn or is it 100% sure the cpu will drop down the multiplier in order to cool them ?

One thing I noticed is that during your testing, your battery was being charged. This could be part of the reason why VRTEMP throttling was being triggered. If your battery is fully charged, perhaps you can run a slightly higher multiplier without triggering the severe VRTEMP throttling that you would like to avoid.
Unfortunately, I tried with a 100% charged battery and that didn't change anything :(.

Thanks for posting so much useful information. I usually have to beg to get that much info. One minor thing I noticed is that in the Options window, you have the AC Profile and the Battery Profile both set to profile 3. I would think that if a person was going to use this feature, they would probably want different settings (different profiles) depending on whether the CPU is plugged in or running on battery power.


Always willing to analyse some data. Many users do not realize just how good a tool ThrottleStop is when it comes to trying to understand throttling problems. Providing lots of info not only helps me but it is going to help others with similar problems. Many owners, especially Dell owners, are going to be envious that you can run your Core i7-10710U with its 15 Watt TDP rating at 45 Watts without burning down your house! Good work.
Yes at the moment I've not totally decide the best profile I'm willing to use for battery mode, so by default I've set AC and battery to the same profile ;).

By the way, can I ask why you choose to limit profiles to 4 ? I was planning maybe one for games, one for heavy demanding tasks (like encoding), one for battery, one for low battery, and a default as a failsafe for example, but that makes 5 so I guess I will do in an other way ;).

Thank you again, and don't hesitate if you need more specific infos !

By the way I've read somewhere on the internet that you may release a paid version of TS someday, do you still consider that ? That would be a good way to thank you for your work on this soft !

Mind if I jump in here?

I have the MSI Prestige 15 A10SC and see exactly the same CPU behavior that its-my-right has been talking about. I haven't installed Throttlestop yet, or well, I did install it a bit after when I first got this laptop but soon realized I wasn't able to replicate any of the previous good scores I got in Cinebench and other benchmarks before I installed Throttlestop so I did a system restore to stock and yeah. I've just stuck with using the MSI Creator Center to change power states (since there are also zero Windows based power settings, this stuff is really 'locked down' and complex integration I guess) and HWINFO to monitor things when I need to. MSI ships the computer with a -0.065v IA voltage offset and a -0.065v cache offset but I was able to get away with more offset before I restored my OS. I just don’t think its worth fussing about with the tight system integration to get that.

I will add that its so strange how almost nothing knows what the 10710U CPUID is. Nothing knows what the iGPU is. Its like Intel didn’t prepare anyone for these chips.

EDIT: I'm slowly but surely working on a review of this laptop for my website. Just gotta get done the multiple part review of the 3950X first.

EDIT EDIT: 45w does burn the house down at 95c steady LOL but it doesn't bother me, I just use the box for the laptop as a little stand for it.
Is HWinfo reporting those offsets ? Mine isn't reporting any offset when Throttlestop is not launched.
Yeah, It's getting hot for me too and I have to lock the multiplier down in order not to reach the 95° limit at 45w ! But considering how thin this machine is, I think it's performance is quite impressive ! I will definitely read your review when you're done with it, but personally I'm very happy with this device :)
 

navjack27

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Is HWinfo reporting those offsets ? Mine isn't reporting any offset when Throttlestop is not launched.
Yup, after that clean install I did hwinfo shows those voltage offsets. I am wondering if the authorized 3rd party seller I bought it from, HIDEVOLUTION on Newegg, has anything to do with it though. They also apparently put on some name brand thermal paste. But that was only a meh extra compared to the bigger drive and extra RAM that was also added.

Oh and you really might want to think again about preventing Creator Center from running. It directly interfaces with the firmware and just does stuff that you can't do with anything else.
 

woodpecker

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I'm also seeing this VR Thermal causing my Prestige 15 to throttle (4k/32GB/1TB model), undervolting seems to have no effect on VR Thermal, has anyone found a cure for this? If I lock the 6 core multipler to around 31-33 it will stop the VR throttle as mentioned above, anyone re-pasted/padded the VRs? Don't really want to take it apart...
 

JJones0207

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I had a somewhat similar problem on my clevo/sager laptop. I have pasted a post I made on another forum regarding the issue. Makes me think this is exactly ur issue because while under load ur wattage is dropping (usually imo due to temps).
In my experience the CPU throttling issues that were occurring on our laptops & probably other notebook models as well, are related to Intel's DPTF (Dynamic Platform Thermal Framework) software and its respective drivers. (I believe there are three drivers associated with the Intel dptf software).

Windows (can have these drivers built in or downloaded through updates) so they may be installed by default with users having installed it.
The later versions of DPTF are even more aggressive in their CPU throttling. I removed the driver using the Autoruns software. But it may also be found in the windows device manager under 'software components'. These are for sure methods of removing the driver and I recommend using them in conjunction with the next method. The next way is a simpler method especially for non-advanced users but im not 100% sure it will fully remove the driver thus it may not resolve the issue. But its definitely worth a try.

Just uninstall Intel DPTF (Dynamic Platform Thermal Framework) from 'add/remove programs' in Window's control panel. Sometimes it is found under the name 'Intel Dynamic Tuning' in more recent versions. After removing the driver I know longer have any issues of the Intel DPTF dynamically changing the PL1 to well under the 45 watt limit (I have the 9th gen i7). Sometimes downclocking all the way down to a PL1 of 35W on a 45W rated processor, making benchmark scores look horrible.

Do your research on the software, as it does serve a purpose in keeping thermals down by regulating clocks, voltage, & the throttling boost to protect components. But the CPU natively has throttle regulation built in to prevent going higher then the max temp. Nevertheless, you don't want to cause long-term degradation by running high temps. I monitor my temps & clocks while gaming heavily anyway.
 

woodpecker

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Just uninstall Intel DPTF (Dynamic Platform Thermal Framework) from 'add/remove programs' in Window's control panel. Sometimes it is found under the name 'Intel Dynamic Tuning' in more recent versions.
Thanks for the reply, I cannot find that installed in add/remove programs or software components, checking with Autoruns I don't see anything like that installed
 

JJones0207

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Thanks for the reply, I cannot find that installed in add/remove programs or software components, checking with Autoruns I don't see anything like that installed
Type intel under the Drivers tab in Autoruns, and see if you see it. (verses searching through the everything tab). The entry name would be dptf_acpi, eist, and one more possible driver I cant remember off the top of my head. Usually comes pre-installed, but its possible that's not the issue though. Just sounded identical to the issue I was having. I would also ensure you have all drivers installed for your device from your devices OEM, MSI usually will have them on there site.
Are you using throttlestop? Are your clocks maxed out or do they downclock when not under load. Sounds like its running at max clock speeds which might contribute to your thermal issues. Maybe generalize your google search to others experiencing issues with that model and thermals
 
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