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NVIDIA GeForce GTX 580 Full Specs and Release Date

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maybe this can help (quite simple to understand):
4870x2 = 5870
2x 5770 = 5870
2x 6870 = 6970 ?
5970 =< 6970 ?

trouble is the 5870 was twice the 5770, but the 6970 is rumored to be 3/2 the 6870. this was one of the reasons for the name change.
 
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trouble is the 5870 was twice the 5770, but the 6970 is rumored to be 3/2 the 6870. this was one of the reasons for the name change.

I didn't know that. Then its could be the same or a little slower then 5970
 
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I didn't know that. Then its could be the same or a little slower then 5970

I think that's the target yes, I think the 5970 might just be relevant until the 7XXX series unlike the 4870X2 which barely beat the 5870 and lacked next gen dx support.
 

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Here is some interesting tidbits on how tessellation is being used in the Hawx 2 demo (some review sites may use this demo).
post
The gist of it is:
-over use of tessellation on flat surfaces (which implies that tessellation is simply not needed)
-tessellating objects that are far way but at lower textures (a dynamic LOD should have been used to reduce texture resolution & geometric complexity on far away objects)
-airplanes have a very low poly count (self explanatory)
 

Benetanegia

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Here is some interesting tidbits on how tessellation is being used in the Hawx 2 demo (some review sites may use this demo).
post
The gist of it is:
-over use of tessellation on flat surfaces (which implies that tessellation is simply not needed)
-tessellating objects that are far way but at lower textures (a dynamic LOD should have been used to reduce texture resolution & geometric complexity on far away objects)
-airplanes have a very low poly count (self explanatory)

There's nothing wrong with the distant mountains having detail. I hate and have hated the crappy distant details for years, it was about time they included some detail to the otherwise dull mountains in other games. They should have included more detail on the textures too, I agree with that, and same goes to airplane details. The bottom line is that geometry detail on mountains is exactly like it should be, it's the rest which is subpar.

And the average number of pixels per triangle is higher than 16 pix/tri (18) which is what AMD wanted, so no one, neither AMD or AMD card owners should be complaining about HAWX 2: at 18 pix/tri the rasterizer is maxed out,no more pixels can be drawn, so even if geometry was lower there shouldn't be any performance difference, unless AMD cards are not capable of doing what AMD says they are capable of, which is a posibility after all.

less geometry == NO.
more geometry on planes == YES
better textures == YES
 
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I've seen the review on Guru3d. I must say Meh, I'll pass.
Reasons:
1. Temperature wise that new "amazing" cooling system doesn't seem to be doing that much of a decent job if in sli 580s are 90c under load, which is about the same as 480s with reference cooling ( once again, according to them).
2. power cunsumption is higher ( duh, obvious, but still)
3. the only REAL difference I can see in Metro 2033, since that game has the most heavy usage of tessalation, the difference in 12 fps is a notable one, espcially it will make a difference when you play with 3d vision which cut's fps buy another half ( which sucs, because then metro does go below 25fps in some cases with my current rig, and 580s potentially can avoid that). Otherwise the difference between 195 and 200 fps is kinda pointless.
4. And that's my very own personal reason : I'm not prepared sell my two 480s, pay 300-400$ xtra to get two 580s.
 

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I've seen the review on Guru3d. I must say Meh, I'll pass.
Reasons:
1. Temperature wise that new "amazing" cooling system doesn't seem to be doing that much of a decent job if in sli 580s are 90c under load, which is about the same as 480s with reference cooling ( once again, according to them).
2. power cunsumption is higher ( duh, obvious, but still)
3. the only REAL difference I can see in Metro 2033, since that game has the most heavy usage of tessalation, the difference in 12 fps is a notable one, espcially it will make a difference when you play with 3d vision which cut's fps buy another half ( which sucs, because then metro does go below 25fps in some cases with my current rig, and 580s potentially can avoid that). Otherwise the difference between 195 and 200 fps is kinda pointless.
4. And that's my very own personal reason : I'm not prepared sell my two 480s, pay 300-400$ xtra to get two 580s.


1: Not doin a decent job? the card is just as quiet as a gtx260 (which is Very quiet), the gtx480 is twice as loud. And it still keeps the temps lower then the 480, even tho its quieter, faster, and consumes less power...

2: Power consumtion is higher ,lol? it consumes less power then the 480, and its rougly 30% faster. Where did you read that the 580 consumes more power then the 480?

3: You actually read a whole review and all u saw was a difference in metro2033? Well....:banghead:

Ofc u wont sell 2x gtx480s to get 2x580's, but saying what u just said makes no sense at all, except that u will not sell ur 480s to buy 580s... i wouldnt even sell my gtx470 to get a 580....
 
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Just preordered my 580 here in Spain.

EVGA GeForce GTX 580.

I was doubting... I thought about ASUS, but EVGA has unlimited warranty... so...

484 Euros (ARGH) 10 euros for shipment costs.
So you got them 1st too, eh?
There's only one shop with them available here and it's 537€...
Let's see if next week (hopefully), there are more stores with 580s with more reasonable prices. :D
 

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There's nothing wrong with the distant mountains having detail. I hate and have hated the crappy distant details for years, it was about time they included some detail to the otherwise dull mountains in other games. They should have included more detail on the textures too, I agree with that, and same goes to airplane details. The bottom line is that geometry detail on mountains is exactly like it should be, it's the rest which is subpar.

And the average number of pixels per triangle is higher than 16 pix/tri (18) which is what AMD wanted, so no one, neither AMD or AMD card owners should be complaining about HAWX 2: at 18 pix/tri the rasterizer is maxed out,no more pixels can be drawn, so even if geometry was lower there shouldn't be any performance difference, unless AMD cards are not capable of doing what AMD says they are capable of, which is a posibility after all.

less geometry == NO.
more geometry on planes == YES
better textures == YES
Less geometry = Yes. As it's not needed on flat surfaces :laugh:. Nor do you need to tessellate objects are far distances (at what distance is subjective). So again this goes back to the practicality of it all. I think AMD is going to fix issues like that in the drivers. But it's not clear what exactly they plan on doing. As for 16 pixels per polygon vs 18 pixels per polygon goes (as proven with flat surfaces) more doesn't mean better. Unfortunately we don't have a comparison to see if there is any dramatic difference. But I were to guess I would think the differences would be minuscule.
--------------------------------------------

In any case, I found this review of the 580 interesting. They are using a monitor method that throttles the card. Programs like OCCT and Furmark won't work properly with 580 now. However, this can be altered via driver if need be. Guru3d also commented on it as well as W1z.

Interesting to say the least.
 

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Less geometry = Yes. As it's not needed on flat surfaces :laugh:. Nor do you need to tessellate objects are far distances (at what distance is subjective). So again this goes back to the practicality of it all. I think AMD is going to fix issues like that in the drivers. But it's not clear what exactly they plan on doing. As for 16 pixels per polygon vs 18 pixels per polygon goes (as proven with flat surfaces) more doesn't mean better. Unfortunately we don't have a comparison to see if there is any dramatic difference. But I were to guess I would think the differences would be minuscule.
--------------------------------------------

In any case, I found this review of the 580 interesting. They are using a monitor method that throttles the card. Programs like OCCT and Furmark won't work properly with 580 now. However, this can be altered via driver if need be. Guru3d also commented on it as well as W1z.

Interesting to say the least.

The thing is that they ARE using adaptative tesselation and LOD, as can be seen in the screenshot.

http://techreport.com/r.x/geforce-gtx-580/hawx2-wireframe.jpg

Mountains on the front have much more polys than the ones in the back and there are areas with more details than others, according to what is needed. There is clearly soe sort of algorithm.

But algorithms are always limited, specially by the info at their hands.

What appears to be flat is not necessarily flat. The portion of the image used by TR for example does appear flat from that distance, but there's no way to tell if it is completely flat or if it has undulations (waves) like the almost flat surface of the slope in the lower left corner (just below the radar). That surface may appear almost flat (based on height or deviation), but it is not flat. One could argue that making that surface completely flat wouldn't affect visuals (as in effective visuals), but it does affect the realism. Nothing in nature is perfectly flat and is those imperfections what make a difference between good looking and "photorealistic" . Ubisoft is aiming for photorealism and hence flat surfaces need to go. Same can be said for specular maps, many people could think that a flat surface like a mirror or a shiny metal surface should have the same specular level on the entire surface, but they would be completely wrong. That would look artificial and completely CG and that's why any good artist will spend as much as it can on those (arguably) tiny details, if photorealism is what the customers asked for.

So returning to the flat surface on the image, that surface may look flat and it might even be flat from that distance and LOD setting, because although there's many more tris than they are required for a flat surface there's simply not enough of them to represent the undulations and bumps that are surely there in the displacement map. That is:

-The displacement map says the surface is NOT flat (heigh != 0 on some pilexs), i.e. has many small and subtle bumps, hence the renderer uses the highest available poly number for that LOD setting, which is based on distance. Since the undulations are smaller than the polys (because there is a limit imposed as to how many pixels/tri must be used...), it is imposible for the renderer to apply a measurable displacement, because the renderer MUST HAVE some sort of algorithm that calculates average displacement of adjacent texels that must be applied to that vertex (same logic as what Antialiasing). That's the only way of avoiding artifacts like a succesion of completely flat surfaces and abrupt spikes when the actual geometry represented by the heigh map should be based on subtle bumps.

That's why I have said over and over and over again that the tesselation used in games/demos today is nowhere near as high as it should be if displacement maps are going to be used and you want good results. You want at least 1 tri/teixel or even 4 tri/texel, 4 for some sort of antialiasing.
 
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The thing is that they ARE using adaptative tesselation and LOD, as can be seen in the screenshot.

http://techreport.com/r.x/geforce-gtx-580/hawx2-wireframe.jpg

Mountains on the front have much more polys than the ones in the back and there are areas with more details than others, according to what is needed. There is clearly soe sort of algorithm.

What appears to be flat is not necessarily flat. The portion of the image used by TR for example does appear flat from that distance, but there's no way to tell if it is completely flat or if it has undulations (waves) like the almost flat surface of the slope in the lower left corner (just below the radar). That surface may appear almost flat (based on height or deviation), but it is not flat.
Flat surfaces are being tessellated. Therefore the reviewer has made the point that it's use in such examples aren't needed. Along with the other points made (distance objects using low textures, low poly count AI planes, etc). While I agree with the observation of the author of that review you obviously don't. I don't agree with why you think he's wrong as you aren't able to provide anything that can refute what was said. Having said that we aren't going to agree. So there is no need to argue with me (the messenger). If you are that upset about it you can by all means take it with the author of the article. :D
 

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Flat surfaces are being tessellated. Therefore the reviewer has made the point that it's use in such examples aren't needed. Along with the other points made (distance objects using low textures, low poly count AI planes, etc). While I agree with the observation of the author of that review you obviously don't. I don't agree with why you think he's wrong as you aren't able to provide anything that can refute what was said. Having said that we aren't going to agree. So there is no need to argue with me (the messenger). If you are that upset about it you can by all means take it with the author of the article. :D

There's no need to argue with him, since none of us knows what happens in the renderer, but, but I do not agree with his assurement that the surface IS flat. The resulting tesselated scene (at that distance, and LOD) is apparently flat, yes, but that does not mean that it IS flat or that it SHOULD be flat. This is what I mean:



Represented in green the desired geometry after displacement has been applied.

Represented in red is the actual resulting geometry as seen in the screenshot from TR. Red dots represent the vertex.

Even if average of nearby texels had been used the surface would appear flat (but higher), because theres simply not enough vertex to represent the desired surface with such a small number of vertex/tris at that LOD. But as LOD inctreases because the plane is closing the detailed bumps would become more apparent and detailed.

The thing is that there's no way to prevent that kind of thing, except using averages like I said, because that often times solves most of those problems (in a similar way as to how antialiasing gets rid of edges, even though its just a trick to the eye), but if the heigh of the heigh/displacement map is low and there's many bumps per vertex, the average will always be a flat surface, which is not the real surface. If you know of a way to prevent that, or know someone who knows how to create an algorithm intelligent enough to know what should be done in real time, call game developers (anyone, all of them!) ASAP because they will probably thank you a lot.*

Annyway, the key factor here is not if you agree with me, or if I agree with the TR guy. The key, here is that Ubisoft does not agree with you, and has created some mountains that look amazing and put them on a benchmark that runs fluently on nearly any DX11 gaming card. At the same time it exposes the weakness and strenght of certain architectures, where the strong arhitecture runs twice as fast at near 200 fps. Deal with that, is the truth.

* The algorithm that I tink it's used normally, looks at the displacement map for variance in the values of nearby texture pixels, if variance is high, a high ammount of tesselation is used. Because if variance is high (white or very light pixels near very dark ones) it means there's going to be a lot of detain there. This works like a charm in characters up close to the camera because arguably the entire character/object is at the same distance LOD and it's high. But it's dodgy for terrain. How can you prevent triangles from scalating in distant objects? Distance LOD, of course, and that's what HAWX actually uses as can be seen in the screeshot. But that's a problem on it's own too, as distance LOD represents a cap over which the algorithm can not bypass, and in my opinion that is what might be happening there. The algorithm is saying "you need lots of polys, because there's a lot of variance" while LOD is saying "maximum level of tesselation is X" and hence the terrain ends up with X ammount of tesselation which is the highest available to him. And that level happens to be not enough to represent the displacement map, but at the same overkill for the end result: an almost flat surface. How can that be avoided before hand and in real time and without becoming a system hog? That's what I want to know. Because if I knew I may even be rich.
 
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