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Official AMD Radeon 6000 Series Discussion Thread

EastCoasthandle

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3DMark 11 RC results being posted

3DMark 11 RC (this looks like performance mode)
ATi Catalyst 10.10
NVIDIA 260.99

This looks like extreme mode
CPU: i7 960
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NVIDIA 260.99

GTX580: X1748
GTX 460: X923

HD5830: X845
HD5870: X1234
HD5870CF: X2350
HD6850: X899
HD6870: X1120
HD6970: X1807 (found later in the thread by someone else)

source

There is no confirmation and this version used is called RC (still speculation...).
 
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and your kicking with a q6600@3.4ghz like me :toast:. haha i love seeing people that still haven't upgraded their trusty old c2q like me. I simply haven't found the need yet and graphical upgrades will always outweigh my c2q being upgraded. Won't surprise me if my c2q will suffice for another 2 yrs.

EDIT: OUR c2q's lol

I think they have at least another year. The gain is not great enough to jusify the cost of a whole system thats why i decided to get a v card this time around.
 

lane

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3DMark 11 RC (this looks like performance mode)
ATi Catalyst 10.10
NVIDIA 260.99

This looks like extreme mode
CPU: i7 960
Windows 7 x64
ATi Catalyst 10.10
NVIDIA 260.99

GTX580: X1748
GTX 460: X923

HD5830: X845
HD5870: X1234
HD5870CF: X2350
HD6850: X899
HD6870: X1120
HD6970: X1807 (found later in the thread)

source

There is no confirmation and this version used is called RC (still speculation...).

I will quote FM Jarnis from XS thread

I would take all of this with a huge mountain of salt. Just saying... :rolleyes:


And he was write that, before the 6970 was updated ( Jarnis work for Futuremark )
 
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TheMailMan78

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I just read this when I translated it......

In China, manufacturers are becoming more and more like a PR company, media and more like advertising company, DIY is the manufacturer and the media deception or fraud consumer exclusive terms!
Chiphell Chinese website is Mars, Chinese is the official language of the US, and we absolutely love heaven party Devil-countries.
CHIPHELL devil ' Party
I move forward, follow me;
If I go back, shoot me;
If my sacrifice, my revenge, revenge for me!
Maximum program: lead China to hardware imperialism; minimum: eat and drink enough own Jello

Apparently China eats a lot of jello.
 

EastCoasthandle

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I will quote FM Jarnis from XS thread




And he was write that, before the 6970 was updated ( Jarnis work for Futuremark )

Did you see the bottom of my post?
There is no confirmation and this version used is called RC (still speculation...).
 
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napoleon (the only credible guy in that thread) didn't post the 6970 score. Someone else did.
 

lane

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Did you see the bottom of my post?

I have see it, but i have wanted to point that too ... this was not directed against your post, but for addition the word of Jarnis about thoses numbers..

We see too much rumors coming from Chinese forums ... i think we have never got so much things from their forums..... it's so easy to put numbers in a thread in chippell or whatever other china forums...

As erocker say, Napoleon is maybe the only credible guy in this thread ( cause in general, the infos coming from napoleon are confirmed )
 
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EastCoasthandle

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I have see it, but i have wanted to point that too ... this was not directed against your post, but for addition the word of Jarnis about thoses numbers..

We see too much rumors coming from Chinese forums ... i think we have never got so much things from their forums..... it's so easy to put numbers in a thread in chippell or whatever other china forums...

As erocker say, Napoleon is maybe the only credible guy in this thread ( cause in general, the infos coming from napoleon are confirmed )
You were saying that Napoleon information was wrong because of what Jarnis posted. All I'm saying is take all of it with a pinch of salt. And to clarify the 6970 numbers wasn't posted by Napoleon but by someone else. Information posted by Napoleon's leaks are usually accurate which is why I posted it. However, if he does have a RC of 3DMark 11 it maybe one of a few different versions. So the final version may still be different.
 
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Hey mastrdrver,

Here is your proof that slide 72 was photo shopped. The real one is in the post I quoted above. Yes, we do need to scrutinize information if the image itself doesn't look right.

In other news, the 6900 series will include both MLAA and EQAA (Enhanced Quality Anti-Aliasing).

Touché sir :D

Someone went to way too much work to make up that slide. Someone needs a day job.

Either that or it was modified since that slide didn't have final info on it, but the person who photoshopped the fake slide did know the info and tried to make it look legit.
 

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I don't think Cayman will have 1920 SPs in 4D config, unless they are blatantly lying on the slides. Their claim is similar performance on 10% lower die area (that's actually an impressive improvement, more would be just too good to be true). That means that a chip with Barts performance would have: (1120/5)*4 = 896 SP and 10% lower area, so 255-25= 230 mm^2. A chip with more than twice than those, plus FP64 math and a bigger memory controler due to faster GDDR5, would make it more than twice as big, so it would be significantly more than 450mm^2, maybe actually close to 500mm^2 and we know that's not true.

Also there's the fact that 1920 4D SP means 30 SIMDs to feed, when Cypress was completely unable to feed 20 SIMDs and Barts was required to lower the count to 14 SIMD in order to make it efficient (7 per dispatch engine). I can see AMD improving the front end but not by as much as to double its performance, because judging by the slides, they made no significant change to the dispatch units themselves and I don't think the triangle setup was culprit of bottleneck.

That's assuming the slides are legit and are not either a pre-release weapon meant to mislead Nvidia. Although there's very litttle point in doing so now that Nvidia released their contender, so options are limited to: those slides are from AMD or not. And it looks like those are legit.
 
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You're probably right on the schedulers but I'd guess that most of the improvement came from Cayman now having as a base 480 shaders instead of 320.

What I want to see is someone down clock the memory on Cayman and see how it compares to Cypress. It would be interesting to see how limited Cypress really was.
 
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I don't think Cayman will have 1920 SPs in 4D config, unless they are blatantly lying on the slides. Their claim is similar performance on 10% lower die area (that's actually an impressive improvement, more would be just too good to be true). That means that a chip with Barts performance would have: (1120/5)*4 = 896 SP and 10% lower area, so 255-25= 230 mm^2. A chip with more than twice than those, plus FP64 math and a bigger memory controler due to faster GDDR5, would make it more than twice as big, so it would be significantly more than 450mm^2, maybe actually close to 500mm^2 and we know that's not true.

Also there's the fact that 1920 4D SP means 30 SIMDs to feed, when Cypress was completely unable to feed 20 SIMDs and Barts was required to lower the count to 14 SIMD in order to make it efficient (7 per dispatch engine). I can see AMD improving the front end but not by as much as to double its performance, because judging by the slides, they made no significant change to the dispatch units themselves and I don't think the triangle setup was culprit of bottleneck.

That's assuming the slides are legit and are not either a pre-release weapon meant to mislead Nvidia. Although there's very litttle point in doing so now that Nvidia released their contender, so options are limited to: those slides are from AMD or not. And it looks like those are legit.

That is a really hard estimate indeed. We know that one 4D shader unit is 10% smaller than the old one and we know the die area of the old GPUs, but we don't really know the ration of the i/o system:shaders. Based on your calculations, it looks like you're thinking that the shaders take only a marginally part of the GPU (~66% ?) , but what if in reality they contribute for 80-90% of the die area?

For example (I'll start pulling numbers out of thin area because I don't know those ratios either) let's take the 5870. It has 1600sps and a die area of 334mm^2. Let's say that the SPs are 75% of that, that's ~250mm^2. Add 20% more shades and you end up at ~300, minus 10% because of the 4D reduction leaves you with 270mm^2. That plus a beefed up i/o system means 270+84*1,5=396mm^2. Of course I think these numbers are complete bull and don't stand behind them. But so are your numbers.

I am only trying to make a point that we have yet to see some recent die shots from ati, so we won't really know until the thing is finally released unfortunately :(

Also don't forget that this is a "dual engine gpu", so you get 2x the Geometry/raster/vertex units(and I'm guessing 2 dispatch units per SIMD tier, for a total of 4?) to feed the SIMDs, so it is in fact more like 15 SIMDS per block of i/o uints than 30 which puts it closer to the 6800 series
 
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Benetanegia

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You're probably right on the schedulers but I'd guess that most of the improvement came from Cayman now having as a base 480 shaders instead of 320.

But that's the point I was making. I don't think Cayman will have 480 stream processors. 4D VLIW processors are as fast as 5D ones while being 10% smaller, AMD says.

Going by that it's literally imposible for Cayman to have 50% more stream processors, because that would mean 50% bigger die. Minus the 10% improvement in die area, that would mean that it is 40% bigger, that is much more than 450mm^2 and it is said to be < 400 mm^2 (~380 mm^2 seems to be the most common rumor).

Based on either Barts (224 processors & 255 mm^2) or Cypress (320 SP & 336 mm^2), and once we take the 10% improvement into account, roughtly the maximum number of stream processors that a 400mm^2 Cayman could have is 416. That's 26 SIMD, but I actually think the real Cayman will have 24 SIMD (that'd make it =:love:80 mm^2), mainly because it fits the rumors of Cayman having 96 TMU. That's actually a lot depending on how well the schedulers handle them compared to Cypress. If they do it as well as Barts (I don't think so tho) you have 24 SIMD compared to 14 SIMD on Barts, a 70% improvement. I'm far more realistic than that so I would expect only a little better scaling than Cypress, so I'd expect a 40% improvement over Barts. I won't believe that scheduling efficiency has improved so much until I see it.

That is a really hard estimate indeed. We know that one 4D shader unit is 10% smaller than the old one and we know the die area of the old GPUs, but we don't really know the ration of the i/o system:shaders. Based on your calculations, it looks like you're thinking that the shaders take only a marginally part of the GPU (~66% ?) , but what if in reality they contribute for 80-90% of the die area?

For example (I'll start pulling numbers out of thin area because I don't know those ratios either) let's take the 5870. It has 1600sps and a die area of 334mm^2. Let's say that the SPs are 75% of that, that's ~250mm^2. Add 20% more shades and you end up at ~300, minus 10% because of the 4D reduction leaves you with 270mm^2. That plus a beefed up i/o system means 270+84*1,5=396mm^2. Of course I think these numbers are complete bull and don't stand behind them. But so are your numbers.

I am only trying to make a point that we have yet to see some recent die shots from ati, so we won't really know until the thing is finally released unfortunately :(

That is true, but I'm just making some rough estimates based on AMD's claim and estimating what Cayman cannot be, rather than what it can be. You are portraying an even worse case, and you could be right, but that was not my intention. Certainly ROPs are twice as wide on Cayman, I don't know how that could affect their actual size. memory controler is faster than Cypress, remember that the MC on Barts is half size than Cypress because it's meant for lower memory, so Cayman MC will be even bigger than CYpress? idk but everything adds up a little and makes my point even stronger. I don't think Cayman can have 1920 SP, but that's all that I can say.

The slide says >20 SIMD, translated from marketing talk to plain english that tells me 2 things. They probably have bad yields and they don't know if they will harvest like Nvidia did with GTX480. And second, the actual number of SIMDs is not much higher than on Cypress, otherwise they would have said >24 or >28 or whatever, something that sounds far less mediocre than "ok our new shaders are just as fast as old ones and we will have some more of them". Of course it's only my opinion, but remember we are talking about marketing slides, if the chip had 30 or in the high 20s, they would mention it.

Also don't forget that this is a "dual engine gpu", so you get 2x the Geometry/raster/vertex units(and I'm guessing 2 dispatch units per SIMD tier, for a total of 4?) to feed the SIMDs, so it is in fact more like 15 SIMDS per block of i/o uints than 30 which puts it closer to the 6800 series

Cypress and Barts also have dual engine and dual rasterizer in a sense, both share a single triangle setup logic,, so maybe you can't call them a complete dual engine, but they are mostly there. Maybe the slides are not telling the whole story, but no, from what it looks like there's still only 2 dispatchers.
 
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Ah yes my bad. You are totally right. I waslooking at it from an SP point( as in 1600 vs 1920), when I should have looked at it from a SP unit point(1600/5 vs 1920/4) which as you pointed out is 320 vs 480 which is indeed a 50% increase in ammount and at best 40% increase in size - not very likely.
 
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ATI Radeon HD 6970 "Cayman" to Provide Significant Performance Boost - Graphics Cards Maker.

Performance Difference Between "Barts" and "Cayman" Expected to Be 50% :toast:


The highest-performing Radeon HD 6000-series graphics processing unit (GPU) code-named Cayman is expected to deliver 30% - 50% performance increase compared to the recently released Radeon HD 6870 graphics card. The increase is not a major one to say at least, considering the fact that the model 6870 is slower than the previous-generation Radeon HD 5870.

"We believe that the [Radeon HD 6900] will be the No. 1 on the market and no one [will be able to] compete with AMD. We believe that the performance of the new-generation Radeon HD 6900 will be 30% to 50% higher compared to the Radeon HD 6800-series," said Eliane Liao, a spokeswoman for Power Color, in an interview with Donanim Haber web-site.

Even though representatives for graphics cards suppliers are supposed to know performance levels of future products, developers of GPUs tend to finalize specifications on the last minute and therefore actual performance results differ from predicted levels.

In case Ms. Liao is correct and the Radeon HD 6970 - the fastest single-chip Cayman-based graphics card - will be about 40% faster than the Radeon HD 6870 on average, the novelty will deliver performance comparable or higher than the GeForce HD 480, but will not be able to compete head-to-head against Nvidia Corp.'s new flagship offering, the GeForce GTX 580. We Shall See :D

The spokeswoman for Power Color also confirmed intention to release dual-chip Radeon HD 6990 graphics solution, which, according to ATI, graphics business unit of Advanced Micro Devices, will be on the market in Q1 2011. With the power of two Cayman graphics processors, the model HD 6990 will leave behind the GeForce GTX 580, but this will happen months after the launch of the latter.

The Radeon HD 6950 and 6970 graphics cards will be available in mid-December, 2010.
LINK:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20101116230044_ATI_Radeon_HD_6970_Cayman_to_Provide_Significant_Performance_Boost_Graphics_Cards_Maker.html
 
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???? weren't the slides on the front page like 2 days ago.

old new+turkey=confusion:confused:
 
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???? weren't the slides on the front page like 2 days ago.

old new+turkey=confusion:confused:

Yes, they were plastered on pretty much every tech site's front page including this one.
 
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But that's the point I was making. I don't think Cayman will have 480 stream processors. 4D VLIW processors are as fast as 5D ones while being 10% smaller, AMD says.

Going by that it's literally imposible for Cayman to have 50% more stream processors, because that would mean 50% bigger die. Minus the 10% improvement in die area, that would mean that it is 40% bigger, that is much more than 450mm^2 and it is said to be < 400 mm^2 (~380 mm^2 seems to be the most common rumor).

Based on either Barts (224 processors & 255 mm^2) or Cypress (320 SP & 336 mm^2), and once we take the 10% improvement into account, roughtly the maximum number of stream processors that a 400mm^2 Cayman could have is 416. That's 26 SIMD, but I actually think the real Cayman will have 24 SIMD (that'd make it =:love:80 mm^2), mainly because it fits the rumors of Cayman having 96 TMU. That's actually a lot depending on how well the schedulers handle them compared to Cypress. If they do it as well as Barts (I don't think so tho) you have 24 SIMD compared to 14 SIMD on Barts, a 70% improvement. I'm far more realistic than that so I would expect only a little better scaling than Cypress, so I'd expect a 40% improvement over Barts. I won't believe that scheduling efficiency has improved so much until I see it.

4 VLIW are 10% smaller then 5D or 1600 shader 4 VLIW are 10% smaller then 1600 Cypress (less everything else other then the shaders). While going to 480 from 320 is a 50% increase in the very minimal shader count, "AMD shaders" are only increasing 20% not 50%.

That's the way I read the AMD slide at least. From AMD's perspective the shader count is only increasing 20% (if you take 1920 to be the final count). If the TMU is 96 it also allows for an increase from 4:1 to 5:1.
 

Benetanegia

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4 VLIW are 10% smaller then 5D or 1600 shader 4 VLIW are 10% smaller then 1600 Cypress (less everything else other then the shaders). While going to 480 from 320 is a 50% increase in the very minimal shader count, "AMD shaders" are only increasing 20% not 50%.

That's the way I read the AMD slide at least. From AMD's perspective the shader count is only increasing 20% (if you take 1920 to be the final count). If the TMU is 96 it also allows for an increase from 4:1 to 5:1.

Slides are clear 4D vs 5D stream processor is 10% smaller. Remember it's not actually 5D, but 4 simple + 1 complex and now it looks like it's 2+2 apparently. Besides ever since the introduction of Barts AMD has been very keen on talking about and emphasizing stream processors rather than individual shaders.

5:1 on textures is not happening. The slides clearly state that each SIMD has 16 stream processors and 4 texture units. Not to mention that because GPUs work on tiles the relation is always going to be a power of 2.
 
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Right but I'm saying that 1600 4D are 10% smaller then 1600 5D.

Since I can't seem to find it can you point out where the slides state that each SIMD still has 16 SP? If you increase the SP count to 20 with 4D you end up with the same number of shaders per SP which has got to have some effect on making it easier for drivers and now old programs to use the new setup with little work needed from the driver team and any updates a program developer would need to release.

You also end up with 96 TMU and 1920 SP. I guess I'm just a little hung up on that fake slide huh? :laugh:
 

lane

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If you need for compare ...

here's the VILW5:


Here's the VILW4: ( following INPAI, who have been briefed about Cayman on Taipei conference, a VILW4 unit is 20% faster to conclude a Double FP as the VILW5 in a cycle ( by itself ) .. just for the story, Nvidia need 2 cycle for conclude a double FP ( this is why they have this double shader clock speed on Fermi ) ..........

Im sorry i don't find the high res of this screen photo, but, zoom a bit and if you want to understand the real diference between VILW4 and 5, you need to look how it execute FMAD, MUL and other functions. And how they are so much different of the older.
 
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wahdangun

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If you need for compare ...

here's the VILW5:
[url]http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/336/5b3e62336d8648179908c49.jpg[/URL]

Here's the VILW4: ( following INPAI, who have been briefed about Cayman on Taipei conference, a VILW4 unit is 20% faster to conclude a Double FP as the VILW5 in a cycle ( by itself ) .. just for the story, Nvidia need 2 cycle for conclude a double FP ( this is why they have this double shader clock speed on Fermi ) ..........
[url]http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6362/fot016500x334.jpg[/URL]
Im sorry i don't find the high res of this screen photo, but, zoom a bit and if you want to understand the real diference between VILW4 and 5, you need to look how it execute FMAD, MUL and other functions. And how they are so much different of the older.

so its basically a 2+2 configuration, hmm so each of the pair process diffrent task in this case fop and integer ? and each cluster of this can handle up to 2 process each time
 
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Just looking at the pics reminds me of a GPU bulldozer.
 
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so its like a dul core gpu?? instead of dual gpu's seperate like a X2 its a dual core in one gpu??
 
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