[PCPER]NVIDIA's Tom Petersen talks about Frame Rating

[cadaveca]

Well, here you go...Nvidia's position:

Have a great day!

 

[HammerON]

1.3 hours!!!!
It may take me a couple days to watch this vid

 

[Nordic]

1.3 hours!!!!
It may take me a couple days to watch this vid

Instead of reading/posting at tpu watch this. Talk to you tomorrow!

 

[radrok]

I'm halfway through the video, very interesting.

Confirms what I've always said, single GPU is the best solution by far at the moment.

Also if you really want to go dual GPU nVidia is the only viable option ATM, their frame metering solution works.


Gonna add another line:

Wow nVidia frame metering vs input methodology, even though they explained it very vaguely ( I can understand why they would not disclose it though ), is genius.

Watched it all with some pauses in between, good one Dave, thank you.

It's good to see that the review industry is shifting from raw fps measurements to smoothness in general, at least until frame variance is brought close to 0.

 

[cadaveca]

It's good to see that the review industry is shifting from raw fps measurements to smoothness in general, at least until frame variance is brought close to 0.

I am not sure that is really the case. One could argue that GPUs are not just for graphics at this point, and for some things, "Frame variance" isn't something that is even considered, never mind it being important.


It's also worth noting that it is only really an issue with multi-GPU systems.

And none of the information provided tells us how to deal with it, or avoid it...just that it "is".


I am eager to hear what AMD's "official" position is on this, honestly. I'm pretty sure I read an interview with an AMD rep that had the AMD rep reporting that AMD didn't care, and wouldn't be doing anything to "fix" the issue.

 

[Nordic]

It was interesting to watch but the only thing I really learned was that this is a lot more complex problem than I thought and that no one really know much about it.

 

[cadaveca]

It was interesting to watch but the only thing I really learned was that this is a lot more complex problem than I thought and that no one really know much about it.

When there are very few users running multi-GPU in the grand scheme of things, so to me it's understandable that few would even care, never mind understand.

That's why I link these videos.. maybe it'll help some users understand, but at the same time, maybe it'll just add to the confusion.

 

[dir_d]

There's nothing AMD can say or do about this except push the magical drivers out faster. They basically got caught with their pants down.

The video was good to explain the issue but this will have the less experienced users dropping their AMD cards. Nvidia definitely won on that front.

For me ive had 5870 Xfire and now i want to move to 7950 Xfire. I know how to diagnose and manipulate stuttering on AMD GPU's so ill continue to get my price/performance and be happy.

 

[cadaveca]

manipulate stuttering

This is not currently possible. Trust me, I tried. I've been complaining about multi-GPU stutter for years, and still don't have a fix, and no one from any company has ever been able to provide one, either.

You can minimize it only, by adjusting clocks on the slave card, with current drivers. V-sync, frame caps and all that doesn't work for me, and playing games still makes me very nauseous using all currently available "fixes".


Single-card works bloody great, though, so a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, to me. I simply won't buy AMD cards in multiples ever again.

 

[dir_d]

This is not currently possible. Trust me, I tried. I've been complaining about multi-GPU stutter for years, and still don't have a fix, and no one from any company has ever been able to provide one, either.

You can minimize it only, by adjusting clocks on the slave card, with current drivers. V-sync, frame caps and all that doesn't work for me, and playing games still makes me very nauseous using all currently available "fixes".


Single-card works bloody great, though, so a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, to me. I simply won't buy AMD cards in multiples ever again.

Well that is still manipulating it, using radeon pro, adjusting clocks and what not. Minnimal at best but it works for me.

 

[cadaveca]

Well that is still manipulating it, using radeon pro, adjusting clocks and what not. Minnimal at best but it works for me.

I am overly sensitive to this, I'll readily admit. I am sure most users won't experience the same level of problems that I do, too. I've tried everything, though, including switching platforms, all to no avail. It's not like I have a shortage of parts and am stuck here, either, but SLI users report their own issues, too, so I'm not just jumping ship, yet.


Now, of course, this is all assuming that the problems I have are related to the same issue...it does appear to be so, but you never know. I'm willing to explore all options.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Haven't watched it yet but my guess is it's filled with Nvidia repeatedly implying they have methods of smoothing gameplay no one else can master. It's just Nvidia's way, some things never change.

Now that AMD is really focusing hard on driver support and kicking out a lot of gameplay improving betas, I have a feeling they will do the same with frame latency too, now that they are aware of and working on the problem.

For years I had sworn off ATI and was convinced Nvidia was the way to go. Now I'm thinking I couldn't have gone back to them at a better time. Here's to keeping the graphics market competitive and AMD alive and well.

 

[cadaveca]

Haven't watched it yet but my guess is it's filled with Nvidia repeatedly implying they have methods of smoothing gameplay no one else can master. It's just Nvidia's way, some things never change.

Actually, from what was implied, what NVidia is doing is pretty simple. He didn't want to say much about what they were doing, and were more focused on what the tools do, and what the results show, also highlighting that the GTX690 has issues with this as well, just not quite as bad as AMD has right now. They also showed that AMD has improved things for some titles pretty tightly, with the unreleased "fix" driver.



But yes, kind of NVidia biased, to a degree. They also talked about how users at home can try this out for themselves. He stated that NVidia would rather a third party take over this whole thing, actually, so that there is no problems with these sort of metrics. the FCAT tool source is available, but the color-overlay tool is not. AMD would have to develop their own, or a third party, whatever. Seems pretty simple.


No mention of this being the need-all-be-all for future reviews, too. I'm actually impressed with how much pro-NV this wasn't, to be honest.


Basic summary would be that a single GPU is superior. And with that said, Titan is the fastest single GPU, but 7970 GHz provides better price/performance.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Yeah I've watched about up to the 25 min mark so far. Not sure I want to go any further given it's all about multi GPU at that point. My 7970 was comparing better to the the 680 than I expected, until the dreaded Far Cry 3 was shown, which had huge FCAP observed frame drops, and I'm not surprised. I have to wonder what AMD drivers they were using, but clearly AMD needs to put further work on the frame latency thing they've recently been alerted to and are working on. If you're even considering jumping ship, I would def wait until you see the results of that.

On Nvidia's reasoning, I'm not saying they were trying to do anything but talk about what was observed, vs discussing or hinting at a solution, but clearly just the way they're pushing this as if they're the only ones tackling the issue tends to imply brand biasing. I'm actually more interested in AMD's latency solving attempts. Given the way their driver writing has improved by leaps and bounds recently, I am very optimistic about it, and they do it without using review sites for demonstrative gloating.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

hmmmmm, but I still want 680 SLI! with a 1440p monitor

 

[KainXS]

I wonder if the new drivers he speaks of improve it any

 

[MxPhenom 216]

Just watched the whole video. all I can say is wow!!

So much information!

 

[erocker]

Just watched the whole video. all I can say is wow!!

So much information!

http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/b/b3/Kevin-Butler-Mind-Blown.gif

Quick! Go buy a PS3!!!!

I miss that guy. One of the best "spokesmen" in some time.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

Quick! Go buy a PS3!!!!

I miss that guy. One of the best "spokesmen" in some time.

I may end up getting a PS4. And true that. the commercials were epic with him.

 

[Ikaruga]

It was a good watch, many thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately, no new conclusion for me here:/ I'm stuck with single GPU and Nivida since 2007 because of the very reasons mentioned in this movie.

One thing I would like to point out tho, that AMD's prototype driver still looks a bit "frightening" to me, despite it's indeed much better than the old one (please note that I do not have the driver, so I formed my opinion based solely on on this video).

 

[Flibolito]

Agree that's why there is a market for titan and liquid cooled cards. Sure back 3 years ago 2x GTX460 in SLI was better then a GTX480 for $/performance. But I spent $700 on a hydro-copper version of the 480 and clocked the hell out of it and got very close to that performance without stuttering. For gaming I'm pretty much a single GPU type of person as I am sensitive to stuttering as well.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Again, I think AMD's issues with observed frame rate drop/fluctuation may very well be improved somewhat by the frame latency tweaks they're working on, and the first of those drivers may not be available until at least summer. Naturally the 7990 is going to take some special work just because it's dual GPU, but clearly even the 7970 has massive problems with some games, like FC3 for instance.

 

[dir_d]

It was a good watch, many thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately, no new conclusion for me here:/ I'm stuck with single GPU and Nivida since 2007 because of the very reasons mentioned in this movie.

One thing I would like to point out tho, that AMD's prototype driver still looks a bit "frightening" to me, despite it's indeed much better than the old one (please note that I do not have the driver, so I formed my opinion based solely on on this video).

This is why Nvidia wins this round. They are swaying some with this video. If you are sensitive to it by all means switch but others that are uniformed, cant see the difference look at some graphs and assume AMD is utter trash.

Again, I think AMD's issues with observed frame rate drop/fluctuation may very well be improved somewhat by the frame latency tweaks they're working on, and the first of those drivers may not be available until at least summer. Naturally the 7990 is going to take some special work just because it's dual GPU, but clearly even the 7970 has massive problems with some games, like FC3 for instance.

Its been said that FC3 has problems with the engine. If you look at Nvidia and AMD they both suck and a patch to the game is the only way to fix it. The fact that ubisoft dosent care and wont patch the game for Nvidia and AMD users really sucks and the next console port that comes out like this we should tell them how bad they are with our wallets.

 

[Ikaruga]

This is why Nvidia wins this round. They are swaying some with this video. If you are sensitive to it by all means switch but others that are uniformed, cant see the difference look at some graphs and assume AMD is utter trash.



Its been said that FC3 has problems with the engine. If you look at Nvidia and AMD they both suck and a patch to the game is the only way to fix it. The fact that ubisoft dosent care and wont patch the game for Nvidia and AMD users really sucks and the next console port that comes out like this we should tell them how bad they are with our wallets.

Yes I'm very sensitive unfortunately, but it's not just me, (sadly) the whole competitive Quake community knows it from day one that AMD is stuttering and jerky and your need a Geforce card if you want a smooth experience. The fact that this issues recently got some attention and hype has nothing to do with this fact or my point of view. I also really hope that AMD can improve things, and I honestly wish good luck to them fixing the issue.