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permissions.....

hambweld

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first post here is in desperation as the owner of a company which for 3 months now my office has been plagued with the permissions of our hard drives (both ssd & rotary disc) disappearing. I have changed local tech companies twice now.
everyone thought it was the wiring in my building. had electrician come in and rewire the building. the pc's now have a dedicated line with an isolated ground. they also have the iso receptacles. currently running apc pro 1350 backups with AVR. changed virus protection, changed ip address and went to a static ip, changed firewalls, at one point we thought it might be emi from the ballast of the lights so we ripped them out and now have LED lights. seems like no matter what we do, as soon as we plug in a new desktop with windows 10 pro, one or both of the drives will lose the permissions.

my current desktop has an 8th gen i7, 500g ssd for the OS, and then 2x 1tb ssd in a mechanical raid for the data storage. running windows 10pro. I received it Friday afternoon, plugged it in and it ran approx. 2 hours before I lost the permissions on the c drive. we run bluebeam, sage 100, and tekla powerfab (formally fabsuite) on our computers and my computer act as the "server" for sage and Tekla. the crazy part of this is we can run laptops no problem!!! every time one of our desktops malfunctions, we just pull out a laptop and continue to work. this has me thinking, could it be the 10pro?? what could be causing this now??? I and my local techs are out of answers. please help!!!!
 
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Unfortunately I don't have a definitive answer for you, but I can tell you that permissions are an OS or app issue, and really has zilch to do with your building wiring, lighting/emi etc.......

your server/storage OTHO, are likely culprits, as is not having a dedicated server that is not used by anyone. Unless your building infrastructure was seriouosly outdated, you may have wasted a bunch of coin on unneccessary work :(

My company runs a similar suite of apps on over 400 machines (both desktops & lappys) everyday, all day, neveranottaproblems with permissions.....

Well, except for that one S.F.B. tweeniebopper that thought it would be kewl to change all the permissions on his machine, in a misguided attempt to keep the IT dept from "seeing or modifying anything on "his" machine"........ needless to say he is no longer with us ...:D...:roll:...:eek:

Also, if your so-called "techs" can't fix these issues, then perhaps it is time to drop some coin & hire some real ones...:cry:....:respect:...
 
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How do you access the shares from the othr pcs?

At work we got a windows server, with specific folders with access setup "per user" basis, so the specific user can see only what he need. And all pc have the different "folders" (shares) connected as "network drive". Until now we have never had any problem with permissions.
 

hambweld

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reps from the software companies (Tekla and sage) remote in and set up the shared connection. my biggest confusion is why does this only happen with desktops? why can our laptops run perfectly fine??? could it be a difference between 10 pro vs home& office??
 
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W10 home & office is/was not designed to be used in a business environment, and may cause MS to rag on you for mo' money for the proper licensing too, so that is definitely one issue that needs to be fixed asap...

Also, do NOT, ever, let anyone remote into or set-up any of your systems who are not directly employed by or under contract to you for that specific purpose...

Sounds like you really, really need to create your own IT dept, like, last week, and staff it with some certified pros that know what they are doing....
 

hambweld

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the h&o is on the laptops that continue to work. the desktops with pro is what keeps giving us problems.... also the reps from sage & Tekla are on a service contract. like stated previously. we are now on the 3rd tech company. this is again a brand new computer.
 
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How are permissions set from server side? Sounds like a group policy setting is messed up. Do you have different OU's for desktops and laptops in Active Directory?
 

hambweld

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59579348832--73F7768D-8E3E-4336-A552-6E7311C71FBA.JPG

this is what is happening. when you right click and go to properties, no one has any permissions to the drives. so the drives are there, but not accessible.
 

Solaris17

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No, this seems like an owner trying to play tech detective.

Chances are either the setup techs from sage who are barely capable are destroying your permissions on setup, or because you are sharing the C: drive on your personal workstation (seriously wtf) one of the employees is doing it.

I suggest if you must do it this way, get a second hard drive, since obviously a proper infra has not been approved. and put all the data on that. then share that folder (NOT drive).

That will at least help isolate your problem.

As for your "techs" go hire an actual MSP don't rely on friends family, craigslist or tech savvy employees. Go get someone who actually knows how to manage computer systems.

It always seems like a huge money pit until none of the systems work.

I feel for your problem, but there are operations problems here that can't be ignored in relation to your problem.

No Windows, Windows 10, Windows 10 Pro, Dell, Desktops, or w/e are not the problem here.
 

hambweld

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thanks, I do not share my c drive (I reserve it only for the O.S. & bluebeam) I only share my d drive. which is 2 -1t ssd in a mechanical raid. both of them are doing this. also it is happening on every single desktop here. we are currently operating on our personal laptops. I haven't relied of friends as my friends answer for tech problems is det chord..... we are currently on the 3rd tech company.
there is only 5 computers in our office on our pier to pier network. we have a static ip with a new firewall by this local tech company. they even put a raspberry in my book keepers office and the software for it just disappeared..... no one in this town can figure it out and hence why im here..
 

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Wait, so the computers are losing access to their own C: Drives?!? If this is happening on multiple computers, I can't see this being a hardware or power issue, there is something software related wiping permissions.
 

hambweld

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that's what im thinking... I cant figure for the life of me why our damned laptops will run just perfectly fine, yet any desktop goes nutz….
 
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Not to beat a dead horse (cant help it..)...but I cant fathom why wiring would cause something like this. HolY did they take you to the cleaners. :(

When you say as soon as you plug it in.. be specific. To the network? Attach it to a domain/OU? I'm not terribly familiar with AD setup, but I agree that it seems you may have a rule or something overwriting permissions.

Your laptops are good even when hard wired to the same network and joined to the domain/OU?
 
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sounds fishy to me, you can restrict access to c drive in settings turning it on and off.
never have i heard that you plug your desktop into the network and it disables your desktop's c drive.
i have seen plugging into the network and you can't access shared certain public folders
pretty sure some1 has tampered with your settings.
did you set up the pc yourself or its done through your mentioned tech companies?
i have a feeling it could be set up so that you pay more in the future to get this sorted.
 

ITdude

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Hello guys, I'm with the IT company that hambweld has hired. Hambweld has asked me to post here in the forum to help with the more technical details and terms that they are not as familiar with.
First, I'd like to give a bit more detail of their setup.

There are 5 workstations on their network. There is no server. The owner's desktop is acting as a file server. He has a separate D: (data) drive on his computer that is shared out so that the other computers can access files for the software he has mentioned above (Tekla, Bluebeam, etc.). The computers are not only losing permissions to their own local drives, but also ownership. This also happens differently each time (some permissions are lost, ownership may be lost or not, files within the drive have permissions, but the root location has no permissions, etc.). The computers originally only lost permissions after randomly turning off. When they were turned back on, the permissions would be gone. We initially believed the issue to be cause by data corruption and were troubleshooting the cause of the computers turning off. An electrician came to look at the electrical of the building and found that there were wiring problems. The electrical issues were addressed and the computers no longer turn off randomly, but they are now spontaneously losing permissions.

Some major details to note that have caused us so much confusion: The computers ONLY experience the issue when onsite. When we repair the permissions, we have kept computers here at our office for weeks with no issues. Once it goes back onsite, it often goes down within 2 hours. We have done in depth scans with multiple antivirus software solutions, but nothing has been found. We have isolated a computer at their location with no network connection, only monitors, keyboard, mouse, and power and it still experienced the issue. We have taken a computer out and placed it in our data center at our office. We set it up for remote access and set up a Raspberry Pi at their location that they could use to remote into it. The computer in our data center has no issues, but the Raspberry Pi randomly loses its GUI and files, again lending to the idea of data corruption. Also, the laptops working adds another layer. They have experience no issues from laptops, even if the battery is removed and it is plugged in for power.
 
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Crazy...Not connected to any network, totally isolated, but PHYSICALLY in the office and it happens. Another system in your location but with access it doesn't happen to.

Thanks for the explanation. With that said, it sounds almost like a person is doing it (be it maliciously, or without intent) somehow due to the isolation or a missed virus somewhere.
 
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Hello guys, I'm with the IT company that hambweld has hired. Hambweld has asked me to post here in the forum to help with the more technical details and terms that they are not as familiar with.
First, I'd like to give a bit more detail of their setup.

There are 5 workstations on their network. There is no server. The owner's desktop is acting as a file server. He has a separate D: (data) drive on his computer that is shared out so that the other computers can access files for the software he has mentioned above (Tekla, Bluebeam, etc.). The computers are not only losing permissions to their own local drives, but also ownership. This also happens differently each time (some permissions are lost, ownership may be lost or not, files within the drive have permissions, but the root location has no permissions, etc.). The computers originally only lost permissions after randomly turning off. When they were turned back on, the permissions would be gone. We initially believed the issue to be cause by data corruption and were troubleshooting the cause of the computers turning off. An electrician came to look at the electrical of the building and found that there were wiring problems. The electrical issues were addressed and the computers no longer turn off randomly, but they are now spontaneously losing permissions.

Some major details to note that have caused us so much confusion: The computers ONLY experience the issue when onsite. When we repair the permissions, we have kept computers here at our office for weeks with no issues. Once it goes back onsite, it often goes down within 2 hours. We have done in depth scans with multiple antivirus software solutions, but nothing has been found. We have isolated a computer at their location with no network connection, only monitors, keyboard, mouse, and power and it still experienced the issue. We have taken a computer out and placed it in our data center at our office. We set it up for remote access and set up a Raspberry Pi at their location that they could use to remote into it. The computer in our data center has no issues, but the Raspberry Pi randomly loses its GUI and files, again lending to the idea of data corruption. Also, the laptops working adds another layer. They have experience no issues from laptops, even if the battery is removed and it is plugged in for power.
Rogue employee? Either that or a 'ghost in the shell'. Lock down usb ports and change the admin password. See whether it still happens.

I have no idea if this would matter, but you could try just running the bare box, i.e. no monitor etc. See how long that stays up for . . . remote into it from offsite and have it on a LTE network or somesuch.

As a quick fix, download the 'take ownership' shell extension to be able to quickly recover permissions.
 

Solaris17

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Raspberry Pi randomly loses its GUI and files
As the IT company that he hired I wont pass too much judgement because obviously you want to keep your jobs, but unless this shop resides inside of hogwarts all of this is pretty far fetched.

You should be looking at software causation not chasing ghosts. If AV doesn't pick something up that's not a reason to blame the zodiac. What are the permissions after? what processes groups or users still have access? Something owns it, look at the modified permissions to see if there is a clue as to what is changing it. Is there a legitimate program playing with it?

Have you guys actually done any substantial investigate other than making someone re-wire a building and trying a few different AVs?

EDIT:: Maybe install and start using some file auditing software. Since you don't have a server you cant use the built in audit tools for actual Windows Server but there are other available.
 

hambweld

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Rogue employee? Either that or a 'ghost in the shell'. Lock down usb ports and change the admin password. See whether it still happens.

I have no idea if this would matter, but you could try just running the bare box, i.e. no monitor etc. See how long that stays up for . . . remote into it from offsite and have it on a LTE network or somesuch.

As a quick fix, download the 'take ownership' shell extension to be able to quickly recover permissions.
last Friday when my new desktop went AWOL after 2hrs. this was the the office.... book keeper in her office running on her laptop not connected to wifi.
estimator on new laptop hard wired to the internet. my new pc hardwired to internet with everything possible ran through the apc pro 1350va upc which has AVR so no (slim) chance of it being power. all software's were installed at tech's office. it was running fine there, bring it here and re arrange my office/do some cleaning and then plug it in/turn it on..... work for 2hrs and the c drive goes AWOL.
my book keeper does good to turn on a pc. she is not tech savvy the least bit. She does good to operate her cell phone.
my father was not in office, his pc was not plugged in.
my estimator was running on his new company laptop using bluebeam.
the room where the phone system and router is stays locked. only I have the key to it.
this has been driving all of us insane.
 

Ghawblin

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Working on the power makes sense. They were shutting off randomly, electrician found issue, they don't shut off randomly. We don't need to focus on that anymore.

The fact that so far this affects desktops ONLY at your location and a raspberry pi, but not laptops even if hardwired in, is super weird

Working on the power makes sense. They were shutting off randomly, electrician found issue, they don't shut off randomly. We don't need to focus on that anymore.

The fact that so far this affects desktops ONLY at your location and a raspberry pi, but not laptops even if hardwired in, is super weird
Actually, now that I think about it, since it affects the raspberry, maybe it isn't software related? Either that or a virus, but you said it happens even when it's 100% offline and in a locked room.
 

ITdude

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As the IT company that he hired I wont pass too much judgement because obviously you want to keep your jobs, but unless this shop resides inside of hogwarts all of this is pretty far fetched.

You should be looking at software causation not chasing ghosts. If AV doesn't pick something up that's not a reason to blame the zodiac. What are the permissions after? what processes groups or users still have access? Something owns it, look at the modified permissions to see if there is a clue as to what is changing it. Is there a legitimate program playing with it?

Have you guys actually done any substantial investigate other than making someone re-wire a building and trying a few different AVs?

EDIT:: Maybe install and start using some file auditing software. Since you don't have a server you cant use the built in audit tools for actual Windows Server but there are other available.
When I say that it removes permissions, I mean that nothing I use is able to report ANY permissions or ownership (most of the time, sometimes a random permission will be left, but there is no pattern). The System user loses permission and NT Service\TrustedInstaller no longer owns C:. From what I can tell, the permissions appear to be corrupted. There are no logs or events in event viewer that seem to coincide with when issue occurs, but this may be due to the system being unable to create such logs since it no longer has permissions once the error occurs. I am unable to change the permissions or take ownership without booting to a known good Windows installation elsewhere, then taking ownership of the drive, and adding back all permissions. We have taken to running regular backups of their files and are often now running clean Windows installations when this occurs to prevent the possibility of corrupt system files being carried over. Also, again, the rewiring was done by an electrician after they found legitimate power issues tangentially related to the computers powering off. We have tried installing auditing software, but again, no logs or events appear to line up with the issue. The only logs we were getting at one point were for the unexpected power off events, which is why we recommended looking into the power. I completely understand how far fetched this issue appears. We have never seen anything like it and are reaching our wits end as well.
 
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When I say that it removes permissions, I mean that nothing I use is able to report ANY permissions or ownership (most of the time, sometimes a random permission will be left, but there is no pattern). The System user loses permission and NT Service\TrustedInstaller no longer owns C:. From what I can tell, the permissions appear to be corrupted. There are no logs or events in event viewer that seem to coincide with when issue occurs, but this may be due to the system being unable to create such logs since it no longer has permissions once the error occurs. I am unable to change the permissions or take ownership without booting to a known good Windows installation elsewhere, then taking ownership of the drive, and adding back all permissions. We have taken to running regular backups of their files and are often now running clean Windows installations when this occurs to prevent the possibility of corrupt system files being carried over. Also, again, the rewiring was done by an electrician after they found legitimate power issues tangentially related to the computers powering off. We have tried installing auditing software, but again, no logs or events appear to line up with the issue. The only logs we were getting at one point were for the unexpected power off events, which is why we recommended looking into the power. I completely understand how far fetched this issue appears. We have never seen anything like it and are reaching our wits end as well.
I suspect a malicious hack/malware here. If you remove one desktop from the network and internet, recover permissions, you might not have reinstall the OS from scratch. It wouldnt surprise me if you have to move it(the desktops) to an offsite location. I assume a clean OS install has been attempted, with access to the network that still failed and lost permissions to the local drive, but was it attempted without network access?
 
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We have the exact same setup.

1. I wonder if the RAID setup is somehow effecting things ... it shouldn't. We ran an NAS for 5 years ... now we have a main workstation, 4 other workstations and 5 laptops. Everything is Win 7 Pro. We found the RAID a lil bit of an annoyance with file ownership. Occasionally it would just block file access. Now the main WS serves as the server. Instead of RAID, we have twin SSHDs ... the first one is what folks access; the 2nd is a software mirror that mirrors the drive twice a day. This method has performed flawlessly.

2. Data is stored on different partitions on the drive. Q:\ contains AutoCAD drawings R:\ contains word processing, spresadheet and other project data ... U:\ contains financial data. Those partitions are "Mapped" on individual PCs depending on access level for each employee. Bookeeper has no access to the CAD drive.... CAD guys and Engineers have no access to financial data.

3. A user account was created on the Main WS for every employee; same name and password as on their own box. When they log iunto their computers, they are auto logged in via the mapping to the Main WS partitions.
 
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