• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

PL1/PL2 and EDP OTHER always on

Schleraz

New Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2021
Messages
2 (0.04/day)
Hi,

I have a 4 months old MSI GF65 thin with Intel Core i7-10750H with GeForce RTX 3060 Laptop.
While gaming, the performance and FPS was good, but the CPU temps were between 85 and 90 C which seems quite high.
I enabled overclocking in the BIOS and used TS 9.3 to undervolt the CPU (core around -133.8 mV, cache -125.0 mV) which is stable and brought the core temps down to 70-75 C.
However, when testing in TS bench, the PL2 and EDP OTHER are constantly flashing red/yellow. The PL2 is replaced by PL1 after about 30 s (turbo time limit is the default 28 s) and it stays lit.
I tried adjusting the Speed shift EPP from the default 128 to lower and higher, I played around with the Turbo Ratio Limits (setting all to the same as the max 50, setting them all to a lower value also lowering them sequentially from 50 to 38), I changed the PL1 and PL2 values to the same, then higher/lower than the TDP (45W), I also lowered the CPU core offset mV further. I tried Disable and lock turbo power limits, none of these helped.
I read several threads in this forum and the suggestions there did not fix this issue. Here are some screenshots of the settings:

1.PNG
2.PNG


3.PNG
4.PNG


Can you please suggest if this can be fixed somehow?
Can it cause any damage to the hardware if it is operated with these settings, meaning PL1 or PL2 is constantly lit? Games run fine and the temps are good, but I am worried that the PL1 and PL2 is a sign that the hardware can be damaged.

Thank you very much for your suggestions!
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
3,958 (0.81/day)
temps were between 85 and 90 C which seems quite high.
That is quite high but it is the normal operating temperature for most any thin and light gaming oriented laptop with a powerful Intel CPU.

The Turbo Power Limits window shows that you set PL1=35W and PL2=45W. These low values are telling your CPU to power limit throttle. PL2 is the short term power limit. During a stress test, for approximately 28 seconds, your CPU will power limit throttle so it does not exceed 45W. After that, it will switch to the PL1 power limit and it will throttle some more so it does not exceed 35W.

A 10750H might need 90W or more during some stress tests so of course it is going to throttle hard if you set the power limits much lower than that. The reality is that most thin and light laptops do not have the cooling capacity needed to get maximum and sustained performance out of a 10750H. You have your choice. Power limit throttling or thermal throttling. These laptops are designed to constantly power limit throttle. That is not going to hurt anything. Best to adjust your power limits so the CPU keeps under the 95°C thermal throttling temperature that MSI set for this laptop.

For the rest of your settings, when you undervolt the Intel GPU, you usually need to undervolt the iGPU Unslice equally or else this will not work. You likely have a Nvidia GPU for gaming so I find that there is very little reason to undervolt the Intel GPU. It draws very little power during most use.

ThrottleStop shows what the default turbo ratio limits are for your CPU. There is no reason to set any of the individual turbo ratios higher than the default value. Setting 6 cores active to 47 will not do anything. The CPU will still use the default 43 multiplier when 6 cores are active. You can go lower than the default multiplier but not higher. You need an unlocked CPU to go higher. The new 11800H allows overclocking. The 10750H does not.

Speed Shift EPP can be set to 0 for maximum CPU speed regardless of load or it can be set to 80 if you want your CPU to slow down when it is lightly loaded. Setting EPP to any value between 1 and 84 does not make much of a difference. Windows 10 likes setting EPP to 84.

If you want to do some testing, check the FIVR Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits box and in the TPL window set both power limits sky high to the maximum value, 4095.

1627588768159.png


Run a stress test like Cinebench R20 and open Limit Reasons to check for any throttling. If you see PL1 or PL2 lighting up red in Limit Reasons, have a look at what the power consumption is. Even though you have set both power limits to 4095W, some laptops will still enforce a lower power limit. The 10750H has a 45W TDP rating. Some laptops will enforce a 45W limit. Some MSI laptops are more generous and will set this limit internally to 55W.

If these internal power limits are not enforced, your CPU will likely start thermal throttling. This will slow the CPU down to protect it.

Turn on the Log File option when testing or gaming. Attach a log file to your next post. It will show what type of throttling your computer is using.
 

Schleraz

New Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2021
Messages
2 (0.04/day)
Hi,

thank you for the detailed reply and suggestions, much appreciated!
I did some testing with your recommended values (Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limit, PL1 and PL2 to 4095, the rest see below) and ran Cinebench 23.
t1.PNG
t2.PNG



The PL1 was constantly on with a value slightly above 44W, see the log attached. There was no thermal, the temps were in the lower 80 C range which is a big improvement over 90-95. I would rather choose power limit throttling over thermal, as thermal can impact the CPU lifespan (as far as I know). Can power limit throttling have negative effects on the hardware? It is recommended to have rather power limiting than thermal? You mentioned in your reply that these laptops are designed to power limit throttle, so I assume this is not something the hardware cannot handle.

I have another question: is there an optimal turbo ratio limiting? Meaning does it make sense to set it it a decreasing way or the same value for all (matching the lowest maybe)? I watched several tutorials and the suggestions are mixed, some say it is better for the performance to set them decreasingly, but in some they were set to the same low value. I guess that since several cores are active during a gaming session, the settings for the multiple core values are more relevant.

And one last question :) I also undervolted the Nvidia GPU with MSI Afterburner while having Throttlestop running to see how the effects are combined and if they are stable together. Are there any recommendations or settings in TS to consider that impact the GPU?

Thank you!
 

Attachments

  • 2021-07-31.txt
    49.5 KB · Views: 21

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
3,958 (0.81/day)
The 10750H has a 45W TDP rating. It is not unusual for some laptops, especially thin and light laptops, to enforce a 45W long term PL1 limit. The power limits that ThrottleStop lets you set are being ignored. The EC is sending a 45W limit to the CPU and there is no easy fix for this.

With some MSI laptops there is an advanced BIOS section. In there you might be able to adjust the IMON Slope and IMON Offset. Do some Google searching. Adjusting these values can trick the CPU into misreporting power consumption. Instead of it reporting 45W, if you change the slope, it might only report 25W or whatever you like. When you do this, the CPU no longer has any reason to PL1 power limit throttle until the actual power consumption is up over 80W or 90W. :D

In a thin and light laptop, maybe that is not the best advice. Your cooling looks good so you might be able to go as high as 65W or 70W actual without any thermal throttling.

I have never had my hands on a MSI laptop and I have never played around with the IMON variables. Good luck. Post some results if you try doing this.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Messages
32 (0.28/day)
@unclewebb Hello Sir, may I borrow some of your precious time to say something? Have something to say off-topic but related to throttlestop. First off, love your work and both your softwares real temp gt and throttle stop! Now moving towards the matter of fact, Sir please can you include in your next version of throttlestop the ability to set different TPL for different profiles? Like for instance, if I switch from AC power to DC power, throttlestop remembers TPL config for battery profile and vice versa. Hope I make some sense.

Last two things please. Can you explain what is the option AC Timer Res [0..16] & PowerSaver C0% and how should I configure it? Lastly, is there any way to change the size of throttlestop window so that all readings are visible instead of using scroll up or down. Thanks Sir and best regards. :)
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
3,958 (0.81/day)
the ability to set different TPL for different profiles?
I plan to add that feature this winter. During the winter it can be -40°C where I live so I like to stay in and program. During the warm but short summer, I would rather be outside.

PowerSaver was a feature for 65nm Core 2 Duo CPUs from 13+ years ago. No one needs to be using that feature on any Core i CPU. Modern CPUs save power when cores enter one of the low power C states. That is the best way to save power.

Timer Resolution is a global Windows setting. Using a lower timer resolution helps some games and videos run smoother. Most modern games and web browsers adjust the timer resolution automatically.

You can read more about timer resolution here.

 
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Messages
32 (0.28/day)
That'll be awesome Sir if you can add that! God bless you! Wow, that's cold!! o_O Understandable, summers are to enjoy and winters are to get warm and cozy! :)

Thank you for clearing up the PowerSaver C0% part. Makes sense.

So, for the Timer Resolution part, should I just leave it on default 16 setting in my throttlestop? Or should I lower it? Thanks.

Lastly, is there any way to change the size of throttlestop window so that all readings are visible instead of using scroll up or down
Sir, please provide your input on this too. Thanks.
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
3,958 (0.81/day)
You can lower the timer resolution in ThrottleStop but it will not make any difference if a game has already lowered it. All apps use the same value. Do some testing. Some people get better FPS or better benchmark scores when it is set to a low number like 0.5 ms.

You can double click on the monitoring table to see all threads at the same time.

 
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Messages
32 (0.28/day)
You can lower the timer resolution in ThrottleStop but it will not make any difference if a game has already lowered it. All apps use the same value. Do some testing. Some people get better FPS or better benchmark scores when it is set to a low number like 0.5 ms.

You can double click on the monitoring table to see all threads at the same time.

Yes, that's better Sir, but in doing so it also hides this part below unfortunately. I want to see everything all the time. Please add this feature also in your next version. Thank you.

1627844160474.png
 
Top