PL2 throttling I7-10750h

[Zonde]

Hi! I have an Acer Predator Helios 300 with an I7 10750h and rtx 2060. I am very new throttlestop as a whole and i dont know much about this, so I may sound a bit stupid. I have attached a screen shot and i dont know why but in stress tests it pretty much instantly throttles. I've gone through a bunch of other threads here. So far i've tried:

The disable and lock TPL in the FIVR window
Manually locking the Turbo power limits
And using the RWdrv by downloading an old version of throttlestop.
Disabling BDPROCHOT (I read somewhere that prochot and BDprochot are different)

The PL2 thing pretty much locks my wattage consumption to 45 watts and also takes locks the CPU speed 3.4 3.3 or 3.5 (it fluctuates a bit). I know it isnt thermal throttling, Because that peak of 96 was when i was playing a game without the undervolt on
How do i stop this PL2 limit ?
Thanks in advance!

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the throttling happens "almost" immediately it does consume the 70 watts as per it's default limit but then it would throttle after like 2 seconds. I had later turned this down a bit to 60 on long power and 75 on short power, and still the same occurs

 

[unclewebb]

And using the RWdrv by downloading an old version of throttlestop.

ThrottleStop 9.3 does not use that driver anymore so you can delete it. You can also delete all of the WinRIng0 drivers that ThrottleStop used to use. The newer versions will not be using any of those drivers anymore.

How do i stop this PL2 limit ?

You would need to buy a laptop from a different manufacturer. Acer has decided to enforce a 45W turbo power limit. You cannot adjust anything in ThrottleStop to fix this. Your screenshot shows power limit throttling right at 45W. Your laptop is working exactly as Acer wants it to work.

Some manufacturers have left the turbo power limits completely unlocked so you can set them much higher in ThrottleStop. Acer has locked your computer so you cannot do this. During any long term stress test, you will forever be limited to 45W. Your CPU will slow down as much as it needs to slow down so it does not exceed 45W. This is not a thermal limitation. It is a power limit limitation.

 

[Zonde]

Hi! @unclewebb !
Thanks for the quick reply !
Edit : I deleted a vast majority of this post on me going on about how predator sense might be interfering Cause the laptop throttled only after it had consumed a lot of energy.

Is acer really enforcing this limit? seems like a questionable choice
Anyways I launched up HWinfo64 on startup after a full shutdown and saw this,
Is this power limit something that changes dynamically?

Thanks again

Bit of an update This time around i had HWinfo64 running and this popped on also the pl1 thingy which was at 70 just dropped to 45 pl2 was still at 107 though

Edit: Hello again! So I was just digging around, following this tutorial(

). and i found the following picture. Also I don't seem to power limit throttle if i remove the undervolt (and then shut down and boot to clear the settings and then remove the config file). But it crashes on the 960M test on TSbench like midway through. any idea why? (I installed XTU only to check this out, didnt have it before.)

 

[unclewebb]

Is acer really enforcing this limit?

Yes they are. I think I already told you this.

Acer has decided to enforce a 45W turbo power limit.

Is this power limit something that changes dynamically?

Some manufacturers change the power limits dynamically. No one knows what the exact triggers are. It varies from one laptop model to the next. This is secret information so it will be difficult to find any details in any forum.

pl1 thingy which was at 70 just dropped to 45 pl2 was still at 107 though

The power limits that ThrottleStop and Intel XTU let you access and the power limits that HWiNFO reports are different from the internal 45W power limit that is being enforced by your computer.

crashes on the 960M test on TSbench like midway through

Sounds like your computer is not stable. I do not know why. Maybe it needs some more voltage or maybe it is running too hot. My computer can run the TS Bench 960M test without any problems or errors.

 

[Zonde]

Hello @unclewebb !
Thanks again for the quick response.

Sounds like your computer is not stable. I do not know why. Maybe it needs some more voltage or maybe it is running too hot. My computer can run the TS Bench 960M test without any problems or errors.

I'll try slowly reducing the undervolt.

Thanks for your patience and help.

 

[Zonde]

I reduced the Undervolt to -80 on both cache and core (idk why but it wont allow me to even raise the core alone higher.)
Thanks for your help unclewebb!

 

[unclewebb]

idk why but it wont allow me to even raise the core alone higher

Intel XTU does not allow you to set the core and cache offset voltages to different values. Only ThrottleStop has this feature. With 8th and 9th Gen mobile CPUs, some users got better Cinebench R20 results when doing this. Any software that used a lot of AVX instructions could benefit from this.

MAXON Cinebench R20.0 Download

CINEBENCH is a real-world cross platform test suite that evaluates your computer's performance capabilities. CINEBENCH is based on MAXON's award-winn

www.techpowerup.com

Here are some examples.

Cinebench Test.zip

drive.google.com

 

[Zonde]

Intel XTU does not allow you to set the core and cache offset voltages to different values. Only ThrottleStop has this feature. With 8th and 9th Gen mobile CPUs, some users got better Cinebench R20 results when doing this. Any software that used a lot of AVX instructions could benefit from this.

I don't use XTU I tried to once but then realized it was a complete waste of resources, What I meant was it crashed even at -90mv on core and -75 on cache

Also, Predator sense uses XTU to display information ( apparently ). In C>programdata>OEM>predatorsense>"the Cpu name". There would be three XTU files for each of the OC modes, (normal fast and extreme) . They are exactly the same. I found that to get accurate results the XTU files for the CPU in the laptop used had to be deleted. I stumbled upon this when i didnt crash with a -1000mv on core and -80mv on cache. also shorter method to this would be in task manager there should be a Xtuservice-32bit running, irrespective of whether XTU is installed

But, the interference seems to be only partial as i still crashed at -90mv on cache while having the XTU files

Also, How on earth are those CPUs running that cold ? This thing thermal throttles at 3.6ghz

(I installed XTU only to check this out, didnt have it before.)

I realized i sent a picture of XTU. That was just to check those files. Mentioned the path above

 

[unclewebb]

-1000mv on core and -80mv on cache

The core and cache voltages are linked. The only reason to set the core offset higher than the cache offset is because this trick seems to prevent the CPU from using additional voltage when it is running AVX instructions. This used to work well on Intel's 8th and 9th Gen mobile CPUs. Here are some examples.

Cinebench Test.zip

drive.google.com

I have not seen enough testing on 10th Gen mobile CPUs to know if this works or not. I think it does. The voltage sliders in ThrottleStop are voltage requests. If you request something crazy that the CPU does not understand, it will mostly ignore your request. The largest difference between core and cache is approximately 100 mV. Any difference greater than that is ignored by the CPU. That is why you can set the core offset to -1000 mV. The vast majority of that is being ignored. The core and cache are both getting -80 mV. The difference beyond that just tells the CPU not to use any additional voltage for AVX instructions.

The best test for this is Cinebench R20. It uses lots of AVX instructions so it is easy to see the advantage.

MAXON Cinebench R20.0 Download

CINEBENCH is a real-world cross platform test suite that evaluates your computer's performance capabilities. CINEBENCH is based on MAXON's award-winn

www.techpowerup.com

This thing thermal throttles at 3.6ghz

Does it thermal throttle or does it power limit throttle? Your screenshot above does not show any thermal throttling. Just power limit throttling which is normal.

XTU causes a lot of problems. Sometimes it tells users that an undervolt or setting is being applied when it is not. If you check the various power limit registers, it is obvious when it is not working. This has been going on for years. I stopped installing XTU to check if these bugs were fixed or not.

a complete waste of resources

XTU is a pig. Nice graphs but too much CPU usage and too much memory usage.

-75mV on cache

Most 10th Gen mobile CPUs like the 10750H have a lot less voltage headroom compared to 8th or 9th Gen mobile CPUs. Intel keeps increasing the CPU speed every generation so the voltage has had to go way up. Many people are stable with the cache at -75 mV but your CPU might only be stable at -50 mV on the cache. If you get a BSOD, your CPU is telling you that it needs more voltage.

 

[Zonde]

Does it thermal throttle or does it power limit throttle? Your screenshot above does not show any thermal throttling. Just power limit throttling which is normal.

It power limits constantly in stress tests, Thermal throttles in games, This might be due to the added heat of the GPU which also has a MSI afterburner undervolt profile and dosent go over 75 degrees now.

It does power limit throttle in games but doesnt have that big of an effect as the power requirement is only for like a second or two. This is on Star wars battlefront 2, warzone and apex legends. I dont really play anything that is as resource demanding

I have not seen enough testing on 10th Gen mobile CPUs to know if this works or not. I think it does. The voltage sliders in ThrottleStop are voltage requests. If you request something crazy that the CPU does not understand, it will mostly ignore your request. The largest difference between core and cache is approximately 100 mV. Any difference greater than that is ignored by the CPU. That is why you can set the core offset to -1000 mV. The vast majority of that is being ignored. The core and cache are both getting -80 mV. The difference beyond that just tells the CPU not to use any additional voltage for AVX instructions.

i see. But, It crashes when XTU files are either removed from the Predator sense data files, or after shutting down the XTUsvc that is on startup and cannot be removed without causing Predator sense to malfunction. (for the core voltage i mean, I've pretty much settled the cache in on -75 sometimes -80 if i feel confident, Neither of them crash but -85 crashes so,)

I've found that this is the method as to how acer has the factory undervolt on 2019 models

In C>programdata>OEM>predatorsense>"the Cpu name". There would be three XTU files for each of the OC modes, (normal fast and extreme)

If I were to replace the XTU files in this path with custom XTU files or basically edit those files and then uninstall XTU and delete all it's related files (except the ones replaced in Predator sense's data files).

Upon complete shut down and power up, the undervolt / power limit or whatever was changed will be followed, As for the power limit that works only till the bios decides to step in (Am suspecting if acer uses DPTF to enforce this, I found a couple of those files in the drive C, and acer also allows for updating to the latest DPTF drivers)

Most 10th Gen mobile CPUs like the 10750H have a lot less voltage headroom compared to 8th or 9th Gen mobile CPUs. Intel keeps increasing the CPU speed every generation so the voltage has had to go way up. Many people are stable with the cache at -75 mV but your CPU might only be stable at -50 mV on the cache. If you get a BSOD, your CPU is telling you that it needs more voltage.

-75 on cache seems to be stable so far, it's only the core voltage that's a bit confusing for me, as if the CPU decides to ignore the voltage requests and there is no temperature change (sometimes even in voltage as shown in both predator sense and throttlestop) However both HWinfo64 and that small window in fivr shows that the undervolt has been applied . I wonder if it just outright rejects the values instead of looking for the most stable value






I've attached a few screenshots of the Predator sense data files And there being a xTU service without XTU being installed

 

[Zonde]

So, I was testing in Cinebench and as expected power throttling pretty hard then my PC decides it's ok to take more power ? No overclock was loaded nothing.

Before the PC decided to take a bit more power it was running at 3.4 ghz and had a score of 2675
After it decided to take the power it was running at 3.8(I had set a limit, the fans spin a lot but no real difference in temperature so downclocking was the only option) With a score of 2928. Are these scores good for a 10750H?


Edit: -175 on core crashed as soon as a match started in apex legends testing out -150mv
Edit 2: Core seems to be so far good on -125 (cache -80)

 

[unclewebb]

a score of 2928

The 10750H can use a 43 multiplier when all 6 cores are active. Your screenshot shows the multiplier is 38.00. When you limit your maximum CPU speed, your Cinebench scores will not be great. The previous 8750H and 9750H could both score over 3000 in Cinebench R20 so your 2928 score is a little disappointing.

And there being a XTU service without XTU being installed

PredatorSense is built on top of the Intel XTU libraries. I have tested XTU and found that it does not apply the power limits and some other settings consistently. This is a problem when you resume from sleep or hibernate. If you are forced to use PredatorSense then I would suggest completely shutting down your computer each time you are finished using it.

I have no idea how PredatorSense and ThrottleStop interact. You basically have two different programs that are writing different data to the same CPU register. That can cause inconsistent results. There are going to be situations where if you do a sleep resume cycle, your CPU might start using different power limits than what it was using before. With XTU applying settings, you can never be sure what you will end up with.

 

[Zonde]

The 10750H can use a 43 multiplier when all 6 cores are active.

Unless I go for like liquid metal I dont think the laptop can handle 4.3ghz atleast this one,
Turns out even -125 on core crashes, I just now crashed playing star wars battlefront 2. Trying out -105 now.

PredatorSense is built on top of the Intel XTU libraries. I have tested XTU and found that it does not apply the power limits and some other settings consistently. This is a problem when you resume from sleep or hibernate. If you are forced to use PredatorSense then I would suggest completely shutting down your computer each time you are finished using it.

I never leave the laptop unnecessarily on, Predator sense is kinda the only thing that can control fan speeds on predator laptops as far as i know so it kinda needs to be there.

your CPU might start using different power limits than what it was using before. With XTU applying settings, you can never be sure what you will end up with.

Well that does raise some possibilities Perhaps there might be a way to get around the power limit afterall.


I'll test the undervolt values further and find a stable point.

Thanks @unclewebb

 

[Zonde]

Hello !
After a bit of playing around i was able to get it to run at 4.0ghz and with the help of the Computer's seemingly erratic logic I was able to get a score of 3113 in cinebench is this good? or should a 10750H have way better scores?

 

[unclewebb]

3113 in Cinebench

That score seems typical for a 10750H. Here are a couple of scores at HWBot to compare to.

sips bleach seductively`s Cinebench - R20 score: 3302 cb with a Core i7 10750H

The Core i7 10750H @ 4890.4MHzscores getScoreFormatted in the Cinebench - R20 benchmark. sips bleach seductivelyranks #null worldwide and #6 in the hardware class. Find out more at HWBOT.

hwbot.org

Most 10750H will either power limit throttle during Cinebench or if you can force them to run at their full rated speed, they will thermal throttle instead. Not much you can do about this.

I read your previous post that you deleted it. The tricks you used are interesting. Even if that post is not 100% accurate, if you have an option to undelete that post, I would. It could be useful info for someone else trying to jump through all of the various hoops.

 

[Zonde]

How do i undelete it? (If That's not possible do i just create a new post, I sort of still remember what i did. Cause if it would help someone figure things out I am all in, I was just messing around with stuff to see if anything would happen.)

Most 10750H will either power limit throttle during Cinebench or if you can force them to run at their full rated speed, they will thermal throttle instead. Not much you can do about this.

I know right, It's like why even have a processor like this in a ulltra thin laptop.

I gave the reason as inaccurate because it power throttled again on reboot

Also While trying to remove all the XTUfiles manually by painstakingly going through files and folders I Found one that couldnt be deleted called profiles3, so I went digging in it, and decided to do control-f to look for a few values, I couldnt find 45W or long power, But I did find multiple instances of short power and 56W. Have I hit the mother load here
Edit: There was stuff that looked like Hardware IDs to me so i deleted the full picture of the file and instead sent a smaller more focused one
This is the directory If you or someone wants to take a look at it
C:\ProgramData\Intel\Intel Extreme Tuning Utility

I am far from even slightly knowledgeable in this kinda stuff so, I haven't changed anything..... yet

A friend of mine has a Helios 500 That allows for changing CPU speeds in the predator sense, So i had him send me a copy of the files and it looks like this,
Is it possible to make a community-Made Predator sense :thinkingemoji:?

Edit 2 : Some stuff happened after I "Modified" Predator sense.
Namely this picture

When I added the 10th gen CPU to the OC section removing it from the PL section, and then enabling CPUOC in the features file, Apparently I created this monstrosity, The buttons dont do anything. Only GPU overclocking actually works

So, either Acer cheaped out on developing predator sense and just completely reused assets without even checking what was being given out, Or, Acer has big plans for this laptop model.

And I also noticed something The XTU files were in a folder called default that was inside of the Required CPU, But the Path in the Predator sense Config files goes only till the CPU and never touches the Default folder in which the XTU files are kept

 

[Caring1]

How do i undelete it?

I gave the reason as inaccurate because it power throttled again on reboot

Contact the Moderator for this section and request it be reinstated if they haven't already cleaned up the back end of the forum.

 

[Zonde]

Contact the Moderator for this section and request it be reinstated if they haven't already cleaned up the back end of the forum.

Isnt unclewebb the moderator for this section?

@unclewebb Shouldn't HWinfo64 show everything as locked?

 

[unclewebb]

unclewebb the moderator

Someone gave me that title but only put one tool in my tool box. I can approve new posts and that is about it. That is already more responsibility than I want so no complaints. I think I can reply to your hidden post so perhaps I can use that trick to restore that info. There is nothing wrong with thinking out loud. Just because something you tried does not completely solve your problem, that info might give someone else a few ideas.

Shouldn't HWinfo64 show everything as locked?

The main set of power limits are not locked. You can adjust these in the ThrottleStop TPL window. The problem is that there are multiple sets of turbo power limits. One set of turbo power limits that Acer has access to, ThrottleStop and HWiNFO do not have access to.

This is the directory If you or someone wants to take a look at it

I stopped installing XTU a couple of years ago. It was inconsistent and was not useful on any of the computers that I own. Some people need it but I don't. I no longer waste my time installing it. Too hard to completely get rid of it afterward.

Hi @unclewebb !
After your little insight on XTU causing trouble, I decided to find a way to exploit it.



I reinstalled predator sense to get the xtu files back (I had them deleted) then I went into a file called features In the predator sense datafiles,

View attachment 195211


Changed the power limit values from 1 to 0 (Not sure if that did anything) there was also a force XTUOC value I turned that to one and also turned the CPU overclock support to 1.
There's a Take ownership Regedit file that allows you save changes to some unchangeable files It's in the description of the video i linked in a post above.

I also had to remove the 10thgen CPU from the predator sense config file (It was in PLcpu) Also just as a bit of having fun changed the bios version value from 000 to 109 (1.09 is the latest bios) Guessing that this was how Acer detect when a cpu needs to be throttled I might later try to add the 17 10750h to the OCcpu group And test it .
View attachment 195213
After that I went to throttle stop set the cpu speed limit to 4.3ghz and started cinebench, Then i thermal throttled instantly so i turned it down to 4.0 ghz set the pl limits to 70 on both short and long term.

These were the cinebench results after all these changes. (crossed the 3k mark )
View attachment 195214

Now I dont power throttle as long as I dont hit the thermal limits. (Note: If laptop power throttles and doesnt recover put it in sleep mode for about 5 minutes This is what worked for me)
I dont know if this is just random luck I was hoping you or someone in the community could try it. (Ive attached my settings{With Predator sense's Xtu running it's interference Core was fine on -125mv without it -105 was good for core. Cache pretty much stable at -80mv} I had a different profile loaded that's why it says -105 core in the fivr's report window)

Thanks for the help @unclewebb

 

[Zonde]

I stopped installing XTU a couple of years ago. It was inconsistent and was not useful on any of the computers that I own. Some people need it but I don't. I no longer waste my time installing it. Too hard to completely get rid of it afterward.

This Comes with the predator sense installation and doesnt need XTU to be installed Predator sense just reads stuff off them.

The main set of power limits are not locked. You can adjust these in the ThrottleStop TPL window. The problem is that there are multiple sets of turbo power limits. One set of turbo power limits that Acer has access to, ThrottleStop and HWiNFO do not have access to.

I see. There is a DIY Bios mod out there That reenables undervolting in the more recent versions of bios ( https://www.reddit.com/r/acer_predator/comments/l6dg0v ).

I wonder if this Power limit thing gets enough pressure from users, then maybe a bios mod to basically deactivate acer's Power limits would pop up.

Ok, Predator sense has nothing to do with power limits, It still happens with the software uninstalled. However It could be used to tap into the unrestricted bios as some models of predator laptops such as the helios 500 with 8th gen i7 allow for changing CPU power limits through this software.
To anyone that's interested in "Hacking" acer's laptops

 

[Zonde]

Temporary solution found : There should be a intelR dynamic tuning application in Task manager End this process. And start throttle stop and run a test.
the thing starts up on every boot, so it has to be disabled every time.

It would be great if someone could Try this in their Helios and confirm that it works on all devices.

Also what is IntelR dynamic tuning application?