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rtwjunkie

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I would just like to reiterate that TPU is not a user-run organization. Unless W1zzard has given the ok to evaluate alternate “Like” symbols, then this is all just wasted time.

If you look back historically, rarely has a community poll/discussion changed the way things are done.

This is not a condemnation of him, just an observation of the way things are . W1z likes things the way he likes them.
 

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Ambivalent don't care either way.
 
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So apparently you never had an on-topic post marked low wuality simply because that mod didn’t agree with it?
just marked as LQ ? Man,I had points and warnings cause mods didn't agree with what I posted.
but I still think they're doing a decent job keeping the threads relatively clean,sometimes one can get treated a bit unfairly in the process,doesn't happen that often to me though and ultimately it works fine most of the time.
The low quality marking as it is now, in my opinion, is just fine. Everyone still has the option of viewing it, it serves as a statement from MODS that this is not the tone they like to see, without censoring or removing content altogether. Its a nice middle ground in that respect, for those posts that are just not crossing the line, but stick a toe over it while saying 'na-na-nanana'...

As for what is marked as low quality, we're all human and we all have our days. And, I think commentary on moderation is indeed best left in PM. Can't ever go well in public, even on a meta level.

I proposed the +1/-1 and further-system initially and the way it was implemented, I have to be clear: was halfway. The intent is true user moderation where the mods are only left to do some weeding out of 'emotional voting'.

The +1/-1 system was supported by the following descriptions, in the ideal world - and note how these are very concrete, its hard to vote 'wrong'
-1 = flamebait, troll or insult
0 = offtopic
+1 = on topic (no 'value' component!)
+2 = adds useful or new info to topic
+3 = Spotlight (great info, new insights, etc.)
Note that from the sum of all scores given, you don't take the average! You take the median number. This makes it a lot harder to radically change the score with one vote. Every vote has equal 'weight'.

With that principle in place, you could've had modding done quite simply. The only real discussion that's left is '+2 or +3' for the good/best posts in a topic.

Now, note also that we have 5 emoji's now. The info I have is that @W1zzard linked these emojis to the scores up here. What I struggle with now, is how that is doing the intent of this user moderation a service... it really doesn't. What we're also lacking is the filter that is supposed to come with ranked posts - on Tweakers.net, you can filter posts on 0 / 1/ +1 etc. This way you have user moderation backed up by a user controlled filter, making it a very powerful tool to keep content accessible and useful.

Bottom line, the intent of the -1/+1 system is to make life better for the individual (receiving!) user! The Spotlight +3 score promotes input that adds useful information as well. The intent is/was never to silence individuals or anything like that. On the contrary even, because filters are a nice way to 'live and let live'.
 
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The low quality marking as it is now, in my opinion, is just fine. Everyone still has the option of viewing it, it serves as a statement from MODS that this is not the tone they like to see, without censoring or removing content altogether. Its a nice middle ground in that respect, for those posts that are just not crossing the line, but stick a toe over it while saying 'na-na-nanana'...

As for what is marked as low quality, we're all human and we all have our days. And, I think commentary on moderation is indeed best left in PM. Can't ever go well in public, even on a meta level.

I proposed the +1/-1 and further-system initially and the way it was implemented, I have to be clear: was halfway. The intent is true user moderation where the mods are only left to do some weeding out of 'emotional voting'.

The +1/-1 system was supported by the following descriptions, in the ideal world - and note how these are very concrete, its hard to vote 'wrong'
-1 = flamebait, troll or insult
0 = offtopic
+1 = on topic (no 'value' component!)
+2 = adds useful or new info to topic
+3 = Spotlight (great info, new insights, etc.)
Note that from the sum of all scores given, you don't take the average! You take the median number. This makes it a lot harder to radically change the score with one vote. Every vote has equal 'weight'.

With that principle in place, you could've had modding done quite simply. The only real discussion that's left is '+2 or +3' for the good/best posts in a topic.

Now, note also that we have 5 emoji's now. The info I have is that @W1zzard linked these emojis to the scores up here. What I struggle with now, is how that is doing the intent of this user moderation a service... it really doesn't. What we're also lacking is the filter that is supposed to come with ranked posts - on Tweakers.net, you can filter posts on 0 / 1/ +1 etc. This way you have user moderation backed up by a user controlled filter, making it a very powerful tool to keep content accessible and useful.

Bottom line, the intent of the -1/+1 system is to make life better for the individual (receiving!) user! The Spotlight +3 score promotes input that adds useful information as well. The intent is/was never to silence individuals or anything like that. On the contrary even, because filters are a nice way to 'live and let live'.
that'd require people to actually read and follow the guidlines instead of using "-1" as "I don't like you"
the mods still need to do the work
using the rating system became just another form of trolling/spamming but with no consequences
 
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Tatty_One

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Personally apart from being old and simple (hopefully in habits and not in mind :oops:), I too would opt for just a thumbs up like and a thumbs down dislike, funny thing is I have never disliked or down rated a post so just a thumbs up in fact would do for me. As for -1 mentioned above as "I don't like you", if members really think that means they are not liked by someone rather than their post was not agreed with then I worry!
 
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Personally apart from being old and simple (hopefully in habits and not in mind :oops:), I too would opt for just a thumbs up like and a thumbs down dislike, funny thing is I have never disliked or down rated a post so just a thumbs up in fact would do for me. As for -1 mentioned above as "I don't like you", if members really think that means they are not liked by someone rather than their post was not agreed with then I worry!
-1 was never meant to be used as "I don't agree with you" in the first place.If the contents of the post do not warrant a low quality marking but still get a -1 then it's just spamming downvotes.
 

Tatty_One

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-1 was never meant to be used as "I don't agree with you" in the first place.If the contents of the post do not warrant a low quality marking but still get a -1 then it's just spamming downvotes.
For me, low quality and let's call it a downvote are 2 different things, in my experience most low quality tags by moderators are for off topic remarks that in themselves may be harmless so possibly may not warrant a deletion, the downvote system was introduced to allow a member to disagree with a post/comment, but I agree it was dragged away from that and abused by some.
 
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I don't know what the value is in post reactions one way or another but most sites use the upvote system. If you spend some time in the forums here then you know who is a good person to take into account what they have to say.

iirc there was a thanks number in a users avatar box at one time but it's gone. I doubt many people look at that anyway when evaluating advise or opinions.
 
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I'd like to run a poll on what people think about the current reactions and whether they should be replaced with something a little bit more professional and grown-up.
Currently we have: Like, Love, Ha-Ha, Wow, Sad, Angry ( View attachment 125041 )

I propose we change this to:

Positive:
  • Like/Agree
  • Informative
  • Insightful
  • Interesting
  • Funny
Negative:
  • Dislike/Disagree
  • Trolling
  • SPAM
We still have the comment box emoji's. However, I actually like these suggestions but think they should be in addition to the existing ones. I would also like to see the return of the old "Thanks" thumbs up the site used to have. It was really very handy.

I would just like to reiterate that TPU is not a user-run organization. Unless W1zzard has given the ok to evaluate alternate “Like” symbols, then this is all just wasted time.

If you look back historically, rarely has a community poll/discussion changed the way things are done.

This is not a condemnation of him, just an observation of the way things are . W1z likes things the way he likes them.
There is no harm in exploring the possibilities. W1zzard has in the past taken the input and opinions of the users of the site into consideration when tinkering/tweaking with site functionality. From what I have observed, he actually seems to enjoy hearing from us when it is constructive, civilized and respectful.
 
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Actually i rarely use them
 
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I'm fine with the smilies the way they are but definitely don't want negative ones. That can be abused.
 
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Like or dislike is just fine for me. It's not Facebook, after all.
 
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no likes or any little endorsement. If you have something to say, say it.
 
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no likes or any little endorsement. If you have something to say, say it.
Sorry, I have to disagree. Back went the "like" was "Thanks" instead it was very useful for acknowledging a comment or thanking someone for there thought without actually making a comment. The like is similarly useful. However, the additional selections offer some granulation to what can be expressed.
 
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Like/Dislike, Thumb up or down. Keep it simple, Stupid.
:lovetpu:
 
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I run a forum somewhere else and some members suggested dropping the like system entirely because they felt it discouraged active participation in threads. But I disagreed, mainly because you might like a post, but you might not necessarily want to take part in the exchange. You might just be passing by, so to speak.
 
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I'd like to go back to the original format or preferrably no like/dislike system at all.
 
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Honestly, a plain upvote/downvote system (not the stupid -1, +1, +2 and +3 system we had before,) would be a brain dead simple solution that's pretty fair.
 
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Quite often I will read through a discussion, which like most people I naturally do more than post, not because I am lazy (when I do post I go 'all-in') but because I have nothing that will drive it forward. Sometimes there is simply nothing to add, but what's there is worth noting. Even if I have nothing to add, there will still be posts where I want to show agreement/solidarity or let the person know that I appreciated their contribution, or that it was of help to me, so that they get a better picture of what their contributions are... what of their content is of value and meaning. I want to be able to encourage that person to continue putting forth content like that without derailing the discussion. I believe this affects you on an intuitive level. I can say that for me it does influence my posting style. There's fishing for likes (which is an unfortunate side-effect of these systems) and then there is paying attention to what is working in your interactions and using that knowledge to have more higher-quality interactions and better connect with the people you wish to connect with.

That is to say I appreciate getting likes as well... lets me know that I'm hitting home on things and that what I'm trying to say is being heard. I don't really care about the little dopamine hit, hence why I avoid social media for the most part. I enjoy good discussion more than affirmation. I don't care if people agree with me so long as we are having a forward conversation. It's just good to know when you've done something right, for the sake of building a functional communication style. I appreciate having a way to gauge efficacy in a situation where people might otherwise silently approve/disapprove and leave me wondering if what I'm doing is serving myself and others as well as I'd hope. I'm not afraid of negative outcomes in the least, I just want to know whether or not that is the case where people might otherwise not bother. Anything that makes it easier for people to make that known is useful to me in better expressing myself and connecting with people over a means of communication that is not natural for humans. And that's the thing... none of this is natural. So much more is left to interpretation by either party, leading to misunderstandings. That needs to be accounted for and tempered. The more limited the means of communication (and comparatively forums are VERY limited,) the harder it gets to navigate. And the outcomes will suffer for it.

There's something lacking in text-based interaction that is immediate in face-to-face... all sorts of signalling through facial expressions, gestures, and body language. You almost always know how you come off. Not so online - it's so much more primitive by comparison. The feedback system we've evolved to rely upon no longer serves us. I welcome any way of filling that gap. Rating posts isn't perfect and has many downsides, but I think on the whole our ability to communicate is greatly improved by the inclusion of such means. Much of human communication is nonverbal, after all. It's easier in real life to show a great many things than it is to sit and actually explain it by typing on a keyboard. That's not laziness or shallowness... it's just that much of human communication is not explanatory in nature - it's intuitively observed. It'd be super-weird if we always had to directly tell each other how we felt. Imagine how clunky and inefficient that would be. That's why our faces are built to be able to cover a very wide and granular range of movements.

I'd argue that if a feedback system appears to devalue the content within a community, the discussion itself probably is not all that interesting or valuable. People are always going to want to be heard and understood when it comes to discussing things that matter to them. A rating system cannot change that. It can be abused. People can use it in a shallow way, but the same thing happens in everyday interaction, too. You only get to choose what channels it goes through, not if it manifests.

That said, it does need to be simple and some of the current options are a little ambivalent. Like the "angry" option. Is this person angry at the poster? Angry at the ideas? Angry about the facts, but in agreement? Hard to tell sometimes. Simple positive feedback is easier to understand. The negative side gets dicey. Saying "I don't like this." without substantiating that with comment or criticism isn't beneficial to anyone at best... and at worst is simply inflammatory. At the same time, there needs to be that balance in these systems, just as it is important to spot discomfort or frustration in face-to-face encounters. You need to have ways of recognizing when you're failing to come across to people. If all a person ever sees is positive affirmation or nothing at all, they're not always going to grow as much. It can really hurt you in the long run, leaving you with a distorted image of yourself and the net value of your interactions.

Fortunately, people are much quicker to voice dissent or disagreement than they are to issue affirmation. A healthy community should sort out the negatives organically, via direct interaction. That's really the crux of it, I suppose. If you need to make it easier for people to voice healthy dissent, you've got bigger problems. Having a button for that doesn't fix it. Most people will have no problems doing that on thier own and moderator intervention is the only real solution to tempering it. Yet on the other hand, people are less inclined to come out and say that they agree with something or offer encouragement... maybe that's just how we're all wired. In real life, agreement tends more to be expressed through tone and nonverbal means, whereas disagreeableness tends to manifest more directly through words and actions. Things that are considered bad stick out more and that's not always a good thing for ethos or morale.

I think the current system is okay... really too new to say what would need changing, if anything. It varies from place to place. Sort of like wearing-in a new pair of shoes.
 
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How about just a thanks? Is this facebook? Trying to be a SM platform? Thanks is painless and effective and doesn't allow a gang mentality to rule.

These smilies are cute, in an elementary school kind of way, but I don't think they have a place in a forum especially ones like this where polarizing posts, immaturity, and toxicity tend to reign supreme (*bites apple - if anyone knows what show that is... I'll give you a cookie!). Get rid of the riff raff and allow mods to actually do work in sections they don't have control over and things would settle down a bit and in a more timely manner.

Upvote, downvote is still a ridiculous e-peen thing and you'll see side A piling on side B. I use them because they are here, but that doesn't mean they are good for much. The +/- failed as many predicted.

Poll is MEH because it doesn't have an option to get rid of them. Voted 'other' since that was the best I could do.
 
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A thanks is a great idea :)

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