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Quad Core Review

Discussion in 'General Hardware' started by magibeg, Nov 2, 2006.

  1. magibeg

    magibeg

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  2. Alec§taar New Member

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    Never once thought they were... & agree w/ you on your closing note: Have been saying that for years now, & why I initially bought "SMP" rigs from the Pentium I 100mhz era onwards typically/mostly.

    APK
     
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  3. ktr

    ktr

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    4% increase is not much, but hey, it cost the same as the x6800...3dmarks06 is useless, becuase it is programed to use all avaible cores.

    in what, 2-3 years from now??? But when multithreaded apps and games come out, quad core is gonna rock.

    as i said before...(taken this on an old post of min)

     
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  4. Alec§taar New Member

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    A gain, is a gain... & will be better still as game coders learn more about HOW to leverage the added cores.

    The SOURCE engine is a great example, recently!

    That's the start, + above & beyond IDSoftware's already demonstrated gains using Quake 4 SMP 1.3 over its single-threaded predecessor (more @ lower resolutions, & less @ higher resolutions (w/ a STRONG vidcard), but nevertheless, gains were up to 87% & generally avg.'d out over all ranges @ around 45%).

    Personally? I think it's demonstrative of HOW to leverage the cores & is a "look @ the future" in & of itself, for game coders.

    They have been out, like mad, for years now, for your general apps! The OS' themselves have been ready actually since 1992-1993 (NT-based Windows genre)... & the general apps you use have multiple thread design for years now... they're "inherently/implicitly" ready. The OS "process scheduler" kernel subsystem sees to the rest, running threads on least saturated CPU cores present when/if needed.

    (Taskmgr.exe will demonstrate that to you IF you use its PROCESS tab & from its menus, use the VIEW menu, SELECT COLUMNS submenu, & choose threads to be visible on each of your processes - you'll see 95% of what you run IS multithreaded most likely, or more).

    Games are the "final frontier" & already starting up... I give it a year, 2 @ most, before this becomes mainstream programming style in games, especially licensed engines from companies that already use it (such as the SOURCE engine, & IDSoftware already are into & have done).

    :)

    * Things have a way of working out, & getting better, all the time in this field... which is part of WHY I like it!

    APK
     
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  5. ktr

    ktr

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    it still faily useless if it aint mainstream, but time shall fix this.
     
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  6. zekrahminator

    zekrahminator McLovin

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    :laugh: Beat me to it guys, I'll have a newspost ready in a few minutes for users with RSS feeds to TPU (and lazy people who don't have forum accounts).
     
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  7. Alec§taar New Member

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    It is? How so??

    I demonstrated cleanly, & allow you a method of seeing that multithreaded code design IS indeed, mainstream (in your general apps & OS for a decade++ now or more on Windows based OS (NT-based)) & works!

    (Plus, enough data is out there for most apps in that capacity, but as far as gaming? You also now have @ least 3 examples I know of, 2 are noted above).

    :)

    * Time's already "fixed it" for most of your 2d apps, & OS... now, it's just games, & I think we're @ most, 2 years off before many ARE multithreaded... if not off licensing engines alone for new games, which happens & IDSoftware for one does this quite a bit... but from SOURCE engine & the other out there (Battlefield series? Not sure, but I think they also have a multithread possible engine as well for gaming).

    APK
     
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  8. magibeg

    magibeg

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    well if you look at games like quake4 which now use SMP its pretty mainstream. Its just babysteps. Heck quad core isn't even out yet, of course its going to have limited support. The fact of the matter is though that there is still a lot of programs that gain from having 4 cores, it just seems to be games that are lagging behind for the most part. If you can futureproof your rig with 4 cores for the same price as 2 you'ld definately be smiling in a year or 2.
     
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  9. ktr

    ktr

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    i understand os's being mainstream to multithreading, but proof has been give that it doesnt work that great becuase the lack of pirotizing processes. i had a dual pentium pro unit running nt4.0, i disable on cpu, and didnt do jack to perfomance. but when i ran unix, it did a lot. as for games and apps, slowly comming, but still not mainstream...time is the key.

    possible when vista comes, it will have the logic to send processes to each core indvidually...

    and the 6700 is worth the cost if its around the same price as the 6800...
     
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  10. Ketxxx

    Ketxxx Heedless Psychic

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    what a bunch of crap. coders are only just looking at dual core nevermind quad. the underlying point is by the time coders are making even adequate use of those 4 cores that $815 CPU is going to be absolutely worthless where much faster CPU parts are available.
     
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  11. Alec§taar New Member

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    That was a LONG time ago, NT 4.0... it has gotten MUCH BETTER in this very capacity, w/ every new iteration of the NT-based OS family since 2000/XP/Server 2003!

    ? - this IS what it does, & HOW the process scheduler partially does it...

    By core-per-process even!

    (E.G.-> This is prioritization of processes which YOU even have SOME control over @ the RPL 3/Ring 3/UserMode level, via taskmgr.exe right click on processes, but not @ Driver level (kernelmode/Ring 0/RPL 0) usually (though there ARE registry level hacks for this via certain subsystems, recently I applied one to Tcp/IP in fact - ThreadPriority)).

    Already happened... way, WAY happened, since NT 4.0 (the version of this OS family you're noting) & programs as well (most of what you run, I wager, is multithread designed & ready for SMP/Dual-or-more-core systems).

    Again: That is part of EXACTLY what the process scheduler does on multithreaded code, especially when one processor core is nearing total saturation!

    APK

    P.S.=>
    Agreed on general apps & OS', & even for gaming to an extent... especially considering how much "licensing" of the game engine itself is done, & IDSoftware does QUITE a bit of that... apk
     
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  12. i_am_mustang_man New Member

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    the hexus.net review shows quake @ 1920x1200 with full everything, and it's like a 2% diff between slowest and the fastest cards
     
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  13. Alec§taar New Member

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    That high up? Possible. Go lower, you see more. Nobody is denying that. But, a gain is a gain & I'd take it in a firefight (advantage) especially.

    Any amount! Best part is? There is always SOME gain, on an SMP ready rig, using multithreaded code in gaming... Pure CPU-driven gain, no less - not just graphics card "oomph"...

    :)

    * I play Quake 4 SMP 1.3 usually @ resolutions between 800x600 Full out everything on, up to 1024x768 typically (less on AA here & less as I go upwards, AntiIsotropic I like & use the WHOLE way though)...

    What did tests from AMDZone & such show @ those ranges? Between 30-87% iirc...

    EDIT - Here they are, for both NVidia & ATI videocards results (all else in systems was same):

    ATI

    [​IMG]

    NVidia

    [​IMG]

    QUOTE FROM THE ARTICLE (CONCLUSION):

    "That however is not the case, at least with the company that has been the leader in computer gaming graphics tecnology, id software. Always one to aim for the most optimized engine possible, their SMP patch does wonders with 50% improvements and is a must download for every dual core owner out there, AMD or Intel. If this isn't enough we also have word from Tim that in the 1.1 update to Quake 4 we will see even more SMP improvements and fixes, so we will definitely be testing that out.

    Also where id leads, others follow. Obviously for id to patch the game and enable this SMP support and show what a huge advantage it can have goes against some of the naysayers earlier. Hopefully we start to see more companies utilize this second core in coming time and congrats to id software for being the first."

    AND REMEMBER: That's just the BETA code... see the above 2nd bolded statement within the quote from the article, or its URL here:

    http://www.amdzone.com/modules.php?...s&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=225&page=2

    APK

    P.S.=> Before anybody says "I use FULL Anti-Aliasing (AA) @ resolutions above 800x800?"

    Well, I'd have to say you are literally wasting CPU & GPU time: Graphics don't distort their edges much @ all @ resolutions 1024x768 & up!

    Multi-CPU core ready code, via multithreaded design, gave them those boosts you see above, & that's JUST THE BETA CODE, & RIDDLED W/ DEBUG CODE SLOWING IT UP NO LESS as well as NOT being fine tuned totally as the Quake 4 SMP 1.3 is (vs. 1.05 BETA above)! apk
     
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  14. Ketxxx

    Ketxxx Heedless Psychic

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    hmm... i havent read every post, mainly because its nothing i havent seen a thousand times before. but to bring things into perspective, using quake 4 to "prove" the performance gains of dual core is somewhat pointless. Q4 is locked down @ 60FPS because if it runs faster phhysics and voice acting are all thrown totally out of whack. use comparisons that are relative and meaningful sums it up really, aka; any game that doesnt have its FPS capped. "50%" gains are all well and good, but if you cant actually use it without it adversely affecting things (as in Q4 with the physics etc), inevitably that gain is lost, and just becomes waste.
     
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  15. Alec§taar New Member

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    It's easily unlocked - been doing that since day #1...

    :)

    I note nothing "out of whack" animations, physics, or otherwise, except incredible frame rates... & fun!

    I actually own & play this game by the way, & can tell you point-blank, that if someone told you that is the case w/ either Doom III &/or Quake 4? They're not telling you the truth - the game plays FINE w/ the framerate cap OFF!

    APK

    P.S.=> The proof's in the pudding above that PURE CPU-DRIVEN FRAMERATE GAINS ARE POSSIBLE USING MULTITHREADED CODE IN GAMES...

    Tests from AMDZone & BETA CODE ONLY show it cleanly, & of course, w/ someone w/ a dualcore & multithreaded ready code (and actually plays the game, in myself) turning up gains thru the ENTIRE RESOLUTION RANGES POSSIBLE, that aren't "GPU" driven...

    Now, what I find funny is, gamers using AntiAliasing turned ALL THE WAY UP in resolutions like 1024x768 & beyond... wasting GPU & CPU time! It's unneeded @ those resolutions... apk
     
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  16. i_am_mustang_man New Member

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    you make good points, but it's more immersive at higher resolutions and quality settings, AF and AA included, for me at least, it really helps make the game



    and even @ 16*12, when i look at things like rounded hand rails or trees in the distance, AA really helps!
     
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  17. Alec§taar New Member

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    Thanks, & of course - I actually own & play this game, & have a decent bit of experience w/ it in its original single-thread design AND, also the newer multithreaded design.

    I generally don't have too much time for that:

    Generally, I am too busy "keeping alive" (Quake 4 SMP is a VERY fast, high action/high intensity game for much of it).

    I don't use AntiAliasing above 800x600: Why bother?

    After all - The imagery doesn't distort on its edges beyond that... However, using AntiIsotropic I do like & keep turned WAY up!

    Depends on HOW you play the game... & what you like here. I like a balance of SPEED and nice looks.

    APK

    P.S.=> HOWEVER/BOTTOM-LINE: The MAIN point is, right up there from legit test done from an AMD based site no less, that PURE CPU DRIVEN GAINS, AVERAGING 50% IN FACT, RESULT NO MATTER WHAT RESOLUTIONS ARE USED, & all via multithreaded code design usage in games...

    And above? There was always CPU-driven gains, no matter how LARGE or how SMALL and from BETA code no less (avg. 50%)... not GPU, & they happen all thru the res & AA+AF ranges (sometimes decreasing depending on the mix used here), but NEVER A LOSS!

    NEVER A LOSS! What would have COST YOU in single-threaded games using settings of HIGH Anti Isotropics & possibly (though imo, needlessly, @ higher resolutions (e.g.-> 1024x768 & beyond)) HIGH AntiAliasing, does not result in losses, ever, using the multithreaded engine of this game.

    Think it got WORSE in the FINAL BUILD? No way! apk
     
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  18. stealthfighter

    stealthfighter New Member

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    Im looking forward to goy integrated cpus, after a year or so as they came out. Fast CPU bys, not slow add-on card bus like today (lets take pci-e (100mb) vs 533fsb... 100 mb fs 533 mb...)
     
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  19. pentastar111

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    ALL of this stuf is going to be really cool in about a year and a half!! I can wait. by then we should see some cool "unbuggy," fully utilized, high perf hardware.
     
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  20. Ketxxx

    Ketxxx Heedless Psychic

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    it is all out of whack. ive modified the game engine, hence i tested it without the FPS cap obviously, do some googling, last i looked there was plenty out there saying the physics etc were all out of whack without the cap. I'll go make a short movie with and without the cap if I have to... that seems somewhat pointless though to show whats already known. You may not experience it however if you have vsync enabled @ say 65hz, as im sure everyone knows, vsync on = FPS wont go far over vsync limit.
     
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  21. Alec§taar New Member

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    Quad-Core CPU's will allow Physics Processing & other gains (per VALVE software development team quote here from this URL):

    http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/02/quad_core_enthusiast_system/

    "According to Valve, quad-core will be resulting in more performance and some new features for the user immediately and a lot more features down the road. The company mentioned that frame rates will improve to a certain degree. But at some point, better frame rates may not be the only satisfying feature anymore and we will begin to see new and substantially upgraded features that cannot be supported by today's single- and dual-core processors. Those features will include especially particle simulation, which comes very close to what gamers perceive as physics simulation today. Valve explained that a substantial part of particle simulation needs to be supported by the CPU: In fact, the game developer said that quad-cores are capable of running physics - without the real need of SLI physics, Crossfire physics or a discrete board that carries Ageia's physics processor."

    THE NEXT PAGE OF THAT ARTICLE EVEN GETS MORE "INTENSE" ON HOW SMP READY CODE VIA MULTIPLE THREADED DESIGN WILL WORK OUT FOR EVEN MORE GAINS IN DIFF. AREAS & FEATURESETS ON MULTICORE RIGS (QUAD CORE SPECIFICALLY).

    More threads = MORE ARMS to do work with, independently from one another, basically.

    :)

    * SO, "wake up & 'abres los ojos' fellas" - It's the future guys, & if you think it won't help & the above data regarding Quake 4 SMP build frame rate improvements (always gains, no matter how large or how small thru all res. ranges, but NEVER A LOSS) didn't convince anybody?

    Well, perhaps that article & quote above will...

    APK
     
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  22. Alec§taar New Member

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    Well, I submit that you modded it wrong possibly... I see NO problems in Quake 4 either in singlethread builds OR SMP builds when I pull the frame rate cap.

    You've seen my mod file for Quake 4 .cfg files... it goes a LOT farther than yours does (and I saw yours as well conversely)... & it works.

    APK

    P.S.=> Make any film you want, but see the quote from VALVE above since you think CPU driven gain is b.s. using multithreaded code... & I know very well, it is FAR from it...

    E.G. #1:

    Why else has so much "SMP readiness" via multithreaded code design been implemented & it works for performance gains in "normal software" & OS', AND YES, gaming...?

    I think that you folks forget it's guys like that (or even guys like W1zz & myself that write code of varying types as well) which design your games, your OS, & yes general softwares (and even the BIOS code in your hardwares)...

    E.G. #2:

    John Carmack (of IDSoftware) is one of the best & brightest out there... why on earth would he implement multithreaded code builds of his game engines then, if they DID NOT BENEFIT GAMERS?

    Possibly strongest point there is, right there... he is a better coder overall than I am.

    Developers tend to know what we're doing in this area, & where it works + why/how & since it has been so widely implemented in everything from OS, to general software, to gaming code (and even drivers)?

    WELL, You have to ask yourselves WHY...

    Answer: Because it works (on SMP/multicore rigs, & actually slows you down on singlecore rigs), especially to offset 'weight/bloat' (worst case, best case are the gains shown above) that other features may have added!

    E.G. #3:

    "Features"/things like turning up AA/AF (or possible physics processing as VALVE notes), which ordinarly result in frame rates losses & especially thru HIGHER resolutions?

    Due to multithreaded code design, aren't losses but instead gains (albeit smallish ones @ higher res & AA/AF settings, which is STILL better than losses by far) when multithread builds of games are compared to single thread ones... apk
     
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  23. cdawall

    cdawall where the hell are my stars

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    well hmm in gaming it made no f***king difference for quad core so why would someone spend money on that?
     
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  24. Alec§taar New Member

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    Right now, even games that bear 2 separate "coarse threads", working on 2 diff./discrete datasets show they can make gains, & never losses, even w/ AA/AF turned up FULL which on a single core rig would hit you FAR HARDER & create "losses" where small gains are seen using multithreaded designs, instead of losses!

    (Even MORE gains, IF you lay off the AA, which imo, again, is a waste beyond 800x600 since image borders & 'frames' they are on tend not to distort @ those res!).

    This much, on "only" dualcore rigs, we're all fairly certain of & have seen, if only in other apps that bear multiple thread designs, & only 2-3 games so far.

    BUT, w/ QuadCore (or more)?

    They'll get more out of them doing "coarse" multithread, for things like Physics processing such as the folks from VALVE allude to above of course, but more efficiency's are coming & will be 'mainstream'.

    * Give it 6 months to a year... see these quotes from the article this thread is about/refers to (w/ other game developers following suit on John Carmack's, one of the "best & brightest" out there today, & his already proven in practice (games like Quake 4 SMP) results):

    -----------------------------

    "Furthermore, games are coming out with more complex AI, physics, pathfinding, and other effects that will tax the CPU more than ever before. At that point, it will be time for us to redo the way we test video games, because 'canned' benchmarks won't take things like AI and physics into consideration. In the coming months, several games will be released that are designed with quad CPU directly in mind. These games are expected to push the boundaries of immersion more than you could imagine. The idea is to let the graphics card to its work, and let the CPU do the rest, including AI, pathfinding, physics, etc" Article Author

    &

    "Multi-core computing is the new standard for PC games, and we at Epic are thrilled to see Intel leading the industry forward with Core 2 Extreme. Its four high-performance CPU cores enable a new level of realism in games, with realistic physics simulation, character animation, and other computationally-intensive systems." -- Tim Sweeney, Epic Games

    "The introduction of Quad Core processor based PC’s allows Remedy to create real next generation games as demonstrated by our Alan Wake, a psychological action thriller to be published by Microsoft Game Studios. Dividing complex programming tasks into multiple threads is the way to exploit performance that allows us to create more realistic and dynamically generated environments and thus enjoy fantastic game worlds like never before." -- Markus Maki, Remedy Entertainment

    "Gas Powered Games has had the opportunity with our Supreme Commander title to be on the leading edge of working with Intel’s Quad Core. The performance and experience enhancements we’ve seen implementing our multi-threaded architecture on Intel’s multi-core systems has shown us that these technologies will represent the minimum bar for the future of advanced gaming." -- Kent McNall, Gas Powered Games

    "Quad-core will change every aspect of PC gaming. It will change how we create our games, how we provision our service, and how we design our games. The scalability we've seen in graphics over the last few years will now extend to physics, AI, animation, and all the systems which are critical to moving beyond the era of pretty but dumb games." -- Gabe Newell, Valve.

    -----------------------------

    Do/ or would you gain today using a Quad Core? Possibly!

    Now, iirc?

    The tests mentioned in this thread DID mention 'small gains possible to none', & not flat-out zero though as you state, by running their tests on a QuadCore rig...

    AND, the more threads a particular task had, the greater the gain was on tests in that review (see the first set of tests in fact, CPU test suite, which stresses multitasking (as best as they can or needed to, today)).

    See, you have to figure that other running processes sending interrupt requests to the present CPU cores will have more core to be "spread across", leaving the one(s) your game needs to get access to, freer (freer of other program child & main threads making interrupt requests on the CPU(s) your game is running on)!

    Tomorrow?

    They'll gain even more as the coders of these games move from 'coarse' multithread designs into more 'delicately designed' ones such as what is known as "fine" multithreading.

    Most of what you see done today, is of the "coarse" nature, & pretty good, but not as good as it CAN be imo & yes, those of others.

    APK

    P.S.=> Would I buy a Quad Processor now? No... don't require it, as games I currently own wouldn't get much out of it, only indirectly (because other processes running's threads would be spread to more CPU cores present, leaving the cpu core(s) the game is running on freer to service the game's interrupt requests)

    Plus, I only buy once every 4 years... by then? It will be commonplace commodity goods... & priced lower, most likely!

    Still this last quote from the article's conclusion should "seal the deal" on this one:

    "See what I'm getting at here? The future is multithreading. Intel knows it. AMD knows it. Microsoft and Sony know it. We saw big gains in performance across the board, and in the few cases where we didn't, we can still consider the intangible benefits of having more than a couple cores."
    ... apk
     
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