• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Radeon PhysX Creator: 'NVIDIA Offered To Help Us', 'Expected More From AMD'

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
34,490 (9.19/day)
Likes
17,517
Location
Hyderabad, India
#1
In a dramatic turnaround of events, NGOHQ.com, the creators of a special system software that allowed users of the ATI Radeon graphics accelerators to use proprietary features of NVIDIA graphics accelerators such as GPU-accelerated version of the NVIDIA PhysX game physics API, claim that in fact NVIDIA wanted to help them with this effort. On June, the 26th we had covered reports of the said outfit improvising a driver after proving that NVIDIA's proprietary GPGPU architecture, CUDA was flexible enough to work on a ATI RV670 graphics processor.

The NVIDIA PhysX API has gained immense popularity with the industry off late though the standard itself is not very recent, with the former Ageia having been in the industry for a while before its takeover by NVIDIA. The recent popularity surge of this API owes to the fact that PhysX processing plays a significant role in affecting the scores of the 3DMark Vantage benchmark, where a certain CPU test routine evaluates the computer's physics processing abilities. This gives users of the latest line of GeForce graphics accelerators an advantage over their Radeon counterparts since they get a significant increment in the benchmark score. The PhysX API functions as a CUDA application on GeForce, where the GPU's shaders are used by the process to process physics. With NGOHQ.com being successfully able to modify CUDA to function on ATI GPUs, it was only a formality to run any CUDA application on it, the PhysX process included. NGOHQ.com has gone on record saying that enabling PhysX support on Radeon cards is not particularly difficult, and might not be much be a technology problem but an issue of corporate dynamics.

The team sought support from AMD in the form of a Radeon HD4800 series sample, so they could work out a similar solution for it, but AMD rejected it telling it wasn't a venture worth investing product samples and PR information on, clearly a case of them downplaying the issue to evade possible action from NVIDIA on supporting the use of its proprietary technologies in violation of license agreements. After being denied support from a company they were banking the most on, they were left to their own plight against NVIDIA who have a history of an aggressive business model, even more so after it was known NGOHQ.com may have reverse engineered drivers, a clear violation of the EULA.

The dramatic turnaround of events has caused a little more than a ripple across the industry, the team at NGOHQ.com now claims that NVIDIA actually offered help to them and that they want to strengthen the industry position of CUDA as a viable competitor to Intel and its processing technologies. This follows news reports of a high-ranked officer at Intel downplaying the rising popularity of CUDA and effectively counter the competitive physics API, Havoc, which uses CPU to process in-game physics. The team goes on to use phrases such as "it seems they are giving us their blessings" to highlight their appreciation for the company.

What's beneath this green sugar-coat of an M&M bean? Clear corporate agenda at play. NVIDIA gets away with the higher moral ground in the issue, of having come in support of a small outfit trying to work on technologies that enhanced their competitor's, while in reality all AMD must have wanted was to stay away from IPR headaches at a time when a reinvigorated Radeon line is going head on against GeForce, the way NGOHQ.com portreys their approach looks more like they shied away from a challenge, in their views.

With inputs from NGOHQ.com
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
148 (0.04/day)
Likes
139
System Name Franck-PC
Processor i7-4770K @ 4.2Ghz
Motherboard Asus Maximus VI Hero
Cooling Be quiet! DARK ROCK PRO 2 Silent
Memory 2x8GB Kingston HyperX Beast 2400 DDR3
Video Card(s) MSI Gaming-X RX480 8gig
Storage SanDisk EXTREME II 480GB SSD + WD 2TB HDD
Case Fractal design Arc MIDI R2
Power Supply Corsair HX620W Modular
#2
Can anyone say : Foolish games!
 

X-TeNDeR

New Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
110 (0.03/day)
Likes
12
Location
Sharpening The Underdog's Teeth
Processor AMD Athlon II X4 630 Propus C2 (2.8GHz) 95w
Motherboard Asus M4A89GTD Pro/USB3 (AMD 890GX/SB850)
Cooling Scythe Yasya+MX-3, 3x140mm+1x120mm case fans
Memory Mushkin 2x2gb DDR3 1600MHz 6-8-6-24 1.65v
Video Card(s) Club3D Radeon HD 4850 512mb (Stock Fan+MX-3)
Storage WD 1TB SATA3 + WD MyBook 1TB ext+Toshiba 160gb ext
Display(s) LG W2486L '24 FHD Led 1920x1080
Case Lancool Dragonlord K62R1 (AMD Edition)
Audio Device(s) ASUS Xonar DX+Microlab X16 2.1+Senn 448 'Phones
Power Supply Seasonic M12II-620 80+ Bronze Modular
Software Micro$oft Windows 7 Ultimate 64 Bit
#3
Can it be, that NVidia is aiding these efforts, in order to push physx deeper into the gaming scene? if ATI cards could run it too, it might have more grip in the market. as long as NVidia call the shots, ofcourse.

Indeed, games :)
 

Megasty

New Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
1,263 (0.35/day)
Likes
81
Location
The Kingdom of Au
Processor i7 920 @ 3.6 GHz (4.0 when gaming)
Motherboard Asus Rampage II Extreme - Yeah I Bought It...
Cooling Swiftech.
Memory 12 GB Crucial Ballistix Tracer - I Love Red
Video Card(s) ASUS EAH4870X2 - That Fan Is...!?
Storage 4 WD 1.5 TB
Display(s) 24" Sceptre
Case TT Xaser VI - Fugly, Red, & Huge...
Audio Device(s) The ASUS Thingy
Power Supply Ultra X3 1000W
Software Vista Ultimate SP1 64bit
#4
Well obviously ATi should take no part in this in fear of being swamped by NV. NV may want to better promote CUDA in this way but don't they have more important things to do in light of recent events. Anyway, all the better for us.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
2,751 (0.73/day)
Likes
868
Location
Police/Nanny State of America
System Name More hardware than I use :|
Processor 4.7 8350 - 4.2 4560K - 4.4 4690K
Motherboard Sabertooth R2.0 - Gigabyte Z87X-UD4H-CF - AsRock Z97M KIller
Cooling Mugen 2 rev B push/pull - Hyper 212+ push/pull - Hyper 212+
Memory 16GB Gskill - 8GB Gskill - 16GB Ballistix 1.35v
Video Card(s) Xfire OCed 7950s - Powercolor 290x - Oced Zotac 980Ti AMP! (also have two 7870s)
Storage Crucial 250GB SSD, Kingston 3K 120GB, Sammy 1TB, various WDs, 13TB (actual capactity) NAS with WDs
Display(s) X-star 27" 1440 - Auria 27" 1440 - BenQ 24" 1080 - Acer 23" 1080
Case Lian Li open bench - Fractal Design ARC - Thermaltake Cube (still have HAF 932 and more ARCs)
Audio Device(s) Titanium HD - Onkyo HT-RC360 Receiver - BIC America custom 5.1 set up (and extra Klipsch sub)
Power Supply Corsair 850W V2 - EVGA 1000 G2 - Seasonic 500 and 600W units (dead 750W needs RMA lol)
Mouse Logitech G5 - Sentey Revolution Pro - Sentey Lumenata Pro - multiple wireless logitechs
Keyboard Logitech G11s - Thermaltake Challenger
Software I wish I could kill myself instead of using windows (OSX can suck it too).
#5
Maybe Nvidia is trying to push out Intel. It would be a smart move if you ask me and good for both companies.
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
15,007 (4.00/day)
Likes
2,940
Location
In a library somewhere on this earth
System Name Haru
Processor i7 3770k @ 4.5ghz
Motherboard Biostar Tz77xme4
Cooling Koolance C370si loop
Memory 8gb G. Skill Trident X 2400mhz at 10-11-11-28
Video Card(s) XFX Double D 7950 / Zotac 620 for physx
Storage Samsung 830 128gb (os)Muskin Chronos 120gb, Pyro 120gb
Display(s) Viewsonic VX2450WM-LED 24" & Hanns G 28"
Case Cooler Master Cosmos II
Audio Device(s) Auzentech X-fi Forte 7.1 Opamp modded
Power Supply Silverstone Strider Plus 1000w pp05 cables
Software Win7 Pro64
Benchmark Scores i5 750 4.62ghz pi runs // Evga FTW p55
#7
I'm just glad that this isn't going to be like the Creative issue a while back.. Work with one another for the same goal. Then we will see how good these companies can be!
 
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
7,662 (1.97/day)
Likes
536
Location
c:\programs\kitteh.exe
Processor C2Q6600 @ 1.6 GHz
Motherboard Anus PQ5
Cooling ACFPro
Memory GEiL2 x 1 GB PC2 6400
Video Card(s) MSi 4830 (RIP)
Storage Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320 GB Perpendicular Recording
Display(s) Dell 17'
Case El Cheepo
Audio Device(s) 7.1 Onboard
Power Supply Corsair TX750
Software MCE2K5
#8
So I, ati is going to knowingly support a faction that is breaking my biggest competitor's EULA?

jigga plz.
 

Kreij

Senior Monkey Moderator
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
13,817 (3.46/day)
Likes
5,524
Location
Cheeseland (Wisconsin, USA)
#9
From my post on 6-26 when this was first announced ..
I'm not so sure that Nvidia will make a big fuss about it.
The fact that it can be used on ATI cards or any others is a feather in their cap, not a detriment.
If they allow it, the open source community will hail them as heroes of the cause.
Looks like they agreed with me :D
 

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
34,490 (9.19/day)
Likes
17,517
Location
Hyderabad, India
#10
Maybe on the opensource, or EU. Who knows, maybe an year or so down the line, EU would have slapped anti-competition charges against NV? As for CUDA, while the compiler that's part of the SDK is derived from an open-source Open64, everything else (binaries...libs...headers...) are proprietary, you can haz dem for free nao but no source code given to you (of everything).
 

InnocentCriminal

Resident Grammar Amender
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
6,477 (1.37/day)
Likes
844
System Name BeeR 6
Processor Intel Core i7 3770K*
Motherboard ASUS Maximus V Gene (1155/Z77)
Cooling Corsair H100i
Memory 16GB Samsung Green 1600MHz DDR3**
Video Card(s) 4GB MSI Gaming X RX480
Storage 256GB Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Display(s) 27" Samsung C27F591FDU
Case Fractal Design Arc Mini
Power Supply Corsair HX750W
Software 64bit Microsoft Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores *@ 4.6GHz **@ 2133MHz
#11
Well written btarunr, I enjoyed reading that.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
2,751 (0.73/day)
Likes
868
Location
Police/Nanny State of America
System Name More hardware than I use :|
Processor 4.7 8350 - 4.2 4560K - 4.4 4690K
Motherboard Sabertooth R2.0 - Gigabyte Z87X-UD4H-CF - AsRock Z97M KIller
Cooling Mugen 2 rev B push/pull - Hyper 212+ push/pull - Hyper 212+
Memory 16GB Gskill - 8GB Gskill - 16GB Ballistix 1.35v
Video Card(s) Xfire OCed 7950s - Powercolor 290x - Oced Zotac 980Ti AMP! (also have two 7870s)
Storage Crucial 250GB SSD, Kingston 3K 120GB, Sammy 1TB, various WDs, 13TB (actual capactity) NAS with WDs
Display(s) X-star 27" 1440 - Auria 27" 1440 - BenQ 24" 1080 - Acer 23" 1080
Case Lian Li open bench - Fractal Design ARC - Thermaltake Cube (still have HAF 932 and more ARCs)
Audio Device(s) Titanium HD - Onkyo HT-RC360 Receiver - BIC America custom 5.1 set up (and extra Klipsch sub)
Power Supply Corsair 850W V2 - EVGA 1000 G2 - Seasonic 500 and 600W units (dead 750W needs RMA lol)
Mouse Logitech G5 - Sentey Revolution Pro - Sentey Lumenata Pro - multiple wireless logitechs
Keyboard Logitech G11s - Thermaltake Challenger
Software I wish I could kill myself instead of using windows (OSX can suck it too).
#12

InnocentCriminal

Resident Grammar Amender
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
6,477 (1.37/day)
Likes
844
System Name BeeR 6
Processor Intel Core i7 3770K*
Motherboard ASUS Maximus V Gene (1155/Z77)
Cooling Corsair H100i
Memory 16GB Samsung Green 1600MHz DDR3**
Video Card(s) 4GB MSI Gaming X RX480
Storage 256GB Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Display(s) 27" Samsung C27F591FDU
Case Fractal Design Arc Mini
Power Supply Corsair HX750W
Software 64bit Microsoft Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores *@ 4.6GHz **@ 2133MHz
#13
HEH HEH HEH!

Even better, good man!

:rockout:
 

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
34,490 (9.19/day)
Likes
17,517
Location
Hyderabad, India
#14
Are we missing the fact that it's also NV's long-term strategy of pushing CUDA against AMD FireStream and AMD's own GPGPU architecture? I would add that to the basket.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
4,435 (1.23/day)
Likes
733
Location
where everyone wants to be
System Name Everchanging
Processor Core i7 4790K
Motherboard ASUS ROG Maximus VII Hero
Cooling Custom loop
Memory 4x4GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 2800MHz 11-14-14-35
Video Card(s) 2xEVGA GTX 970 SSC
Storage SSD Main, 7TB backups
Display(s) Samsung 40" 4k UHD
Case Corsair 900D
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster thingy
Power Supply Enermax Revolution 85+ 1050w
Mouse Steel Series Sensi
Keyboard Thermaltake eSports Posiden Z Cherry Blues
Software Windows 10 x64
#15
I hope that now since NVidia has offered to help NGOHQ with their quest, maybe ATI/AMD will step up and get on board again since with NVidia seemingly being ok with the venture they won't press any charges.
 
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
7,662 (1.97/day)
Likes
536
Location
c:\programs\kitteh.exe
Processor C2Q6600 @ 1.6 GHz
Motherboard Anus PQ5
Cooling ACFPro
Memory GEiL2 x 1 GB PC2 6400
Video Card(s) MSi 4830 (RIP)
Storage Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320 GB Perpendicular Recording
Display(s) Dell 17'
Case El Cheepo
Audio Device(s) 7.1 Onboard
Power Supply Corsair TX750
Software MCE2K5
#16
The fact is not that they want it to run on amd cards fro the "greater good" but they want to corner the market in essense cause if it runs on both cards they will become a standard and push out havok
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
24,413 (5.50/day)
Likes
10,549
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 8700K@4.8GHz(Quick and dirty)
Motherboard AsRock Z370 Taichi
Cooling Corsair H110i GTX
Memory 32GB Corsair DDR4-3000
Video Card(s) PNY XLR8 GTX1060 6GB
Storage 480GB Crucial MX200 + 2TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive with 128GB OCZ Synapse SSD Cache
Display(s) QNIX QX2710 1440p@120Hz
Case Fractal Design Define S
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply Corsair HX850
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
#17
PhysX's biggest competitor is Intel's solution, so it only makes sense that nVidia would want to help promote their technology in any way possible, even if that means helping to get it running on ATi's hardware. It's a good move by nVidia, IMO.
 

adrianx

New Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
323 (0.09/day)
Likes
21
Location
Bucharest ROMANIA
System Name Blue Monolith (working on name)
Processor AMD Phenom II 1090T... on H2O
Motherboard Gigabyte GA-890FXA-UD7
Cooling EK-Supreme with 2 radiators for the moment ~ 22 celsius
Memory Kingston HyperX 2x2GB DDR3 1600mhz 8-8-8-24 KHX1600C8D3K2
Video Card(s) hd 6870 Sapphire 1GB
Storage 8x 500GB Seagate Barracuda on LSI controller
Display(s) Samsung 206BW
Case Aplus Black Pearl WCR with water cooling mounts :)
Audio Device(s) Creative X-FI Platinum Fatal1ty Champion
Power Supply Gigabyte ODIN GT-800 (that with software)
Software Windows 7 Ultimate
Benchmark Scores WORKING IN PROGRESS P10464 in VANTAGE(this is the old score)
#18
so in the clear future will not see any driver with ageia support for ati :)

if nvidia want to help ati (this is strange), I think the nvidia have same interest in that.

I don't see the nvidia working for free to improve the AMD/ATI products.

Also, read about the AMD and HAVOK agreements about the physics accelerations on the HD cards. So I believe that cost same money from AMD.
 

InnocentCriminal

Resident Grammar Amender
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
6,477 (1.37/day)
Likes
844
System Name BeeR 6
Processor Intel Core i7 3770K*
Motherboard ASUS Maximus V Gene (1155/Z77)
Cooling Corsair H100i
Memory 16GB Samsung Green 1600MHz DDR3**
Video Card(s) 4GB MSI Gaming X RX480
Storage 256GB Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Display(s) 27" Samsung C27F591FDU
Case Fractal Design Arc Mini
Power Supply Corsair HX750W
Software 64bit Microsoft Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores *@ 4.6GHz **@ 2133MHz
#19
I can't help but see ATi as the clear winners here. They're supporting Havoc and nVIDIA aren't bothered about PhysX working on their cards. Brilliant!
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Messages
6,885 (1.48/day)
Likes
1,501
System Name MY PC
Processor E8400 @ 3.80Ghz > Q9650 3.60Ghz
Motherboard Maximus Formula
Cooling D5, 7/16" ID Tubing, Maze4 with Fuzion CPU WB
Memory XMS 8500C5D @ 1066MHz
Video Card(s) HD 2900 XT 858/900 to 4870 to 5870 (Keep Vreg area clean)
Storage 2
Display(s) 24"
Case P180
Audio Device(s) X-fi Plantinum
Power Supply Silencer 750
Software XP Pro SP3 to Windows 7
Benchmark Scores This varies from one driver to another.
#20
Based on Nvidia's politics regarding DX10.1 I don't see AMD/ATI being so gracious as to support Cuda. But time will tell.
 

WarEagleAU

Bird of Prey
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
10,809 (2.57/day)
Likes
529
Location
Gurley, AL
System Name Boddha Getta Boddha Getta Bah!
Processor AMD FX 6100 @ 4.432Ghz @1.382
Motherboard ASUS M5A99X EVO AMD 990X AMD SB950
Cooling Custom Water. EK 240MM Kit, Supreme HSF - Runs 35C
Memory 2 x 4GB Corsair Vengeance White LP @ 1.35V
Video Card(s) XFX Radeon HD 6870 980/1100
Storage WD Caviar Black 1.0TB, WD Caviar Green 1.0TB, WD 160GB
Display(s) Asus VH222/S 22: (21.5" Viewable) 1920x1080p HDMI LCD Monitor
Case NZXT White Switch 810
Audio Device(s) Onboard Realtek 5.1
Power Supply NZXT Hale 90 Gold Cert 750W Modular PSU
Software Windows 8.1 Profession 64 Bit
#21
I dont really see the point in all of this. Who cares if AMD/ATI didnt want to violate some licensing. I Think that is smart. Boo hoo for not throwing us a freaking bone here.
 

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
34,490 (9.19/day)
Likes
17,517
Location
Hyderabad, India
#22
I dont really see the point in all of this. Who cares if AMD/ATI didnt want to violate some licensing. I Think that is smart.
That's an important explanation behind not sending samples to NGOHQ.com, as if they couldn't afford it themselves for $199.

Boo hoo for not throwing us a freaking bone here.
Syntax error.
 

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
19,735 (5.12/day)
Likes
5,146
System Name PCGOD
Processor AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory 16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s) NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s) Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software Windows 7 Pro 64
#23
i smell a big rat.:shadedshu
 
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
1,132 (0.30/day)
Likes
160
System Name Grandpa
Processor i5 4690K
Motherboard Gigabyte Z97X-UD5H-BK
Cooling water
Memory 8GB Corsair Vengence 2400MHz
Video Card(s) Gigabyte 5850 x2
Storage Samsung SM951
Display(s) Catleap 27"
Case coolermaster stacker
Power Supply corsair AX860i
Mouse logitech g5 original
Keyboard Ducky
Software Windows 8.1
#24
i smell a big rat.:shadedshu
So do I. What is next? AMD backing Phys-x? Has Nvidia got a fancy chipset in waiting that can further capitalise on CUDA? Maybe they are positioning themselves in preparation for Nehalem?