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Ray Tracing performance of Xbox sx and PS5

Nahid070

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I have questions. That is, will the Xbox sx and the PS5 GPU have physical Ray Tracing and AI cores like Nvidia?
And how much the performance will be compared to Nvidia rtx 2080 ti?

I'm expecting answers from who actually knows about the inner technology and can measure real world performance based on theoretical numbers on paper..
 
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Both MS and Sony have said there is hardware for RT.
AMD patents hint at the functions being similar to what Nvidia does - accelerating specific operations (BVH traversal and intersection testing) that are basic part of various raytracing applications.
Nobody publicly knows about RT performance of PS5, XSX or RDNA2/Ampere.
 

Nahid070

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Both MS and Sony have said there is hardware for RT.
AMD patents hint at the functions being similar to what Nvidia does - accelerating specific operations (BVH traversal and intersection testing) that are basic part of various raytracing applications.
Nobody publicly knows about RT performance of PS5, XSX or RDNA2/Ampere.
So it does mean the Ray Tracing will be good as Nvidia?
 
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So it does mean the Ray Tracing will be good as Nvidia?
We do not know.

AMD, Microsoft and Sony have shared nothing useful for their RT implementations that would show how good it is. In fact, even what their actual hardware will do is an educated guess at this point based off AMD patents. We will get some idea when RDNA2 is launched. I would not expect to get a good idea from RDNA2 announcement or console releases. These will include technical details that help understand what their RT units do and 1st party test results which are obviously skewed but we need hardware in hand to test and quantify the performance.

If AMD is sane, their RT implementation will support DXR and same or similar Vulkan extensions as Nvidia's. We should be able to test and compare directly.
 
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I have questions. That is, will the Xbox sx and the PS5 GPU have physical Ray Tracing and AI cores like Nvidia?
And how much the performance will be compared to Nvidia rtx 2080 ti?

I'm expecting answers from who actually knows about the inner technology and can measure real world performance based on theoretical numbers on paper..
No sorry no one will be able to answer that question until consoles get released.
 
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I have questions. That is, will the Xbox sx and the PS5 GPU have physical Ray Tracing and AI cores like Nvidia?
And how much the performance will be compared to Nvidia rtx 2080 ti?

I'm expecting answers from who actually knows about the inner technology and can measure real world performance based on theoretical numbers on paper..
XSX has DXR Tier 1.1 which improves RT efficiency. Turing RTX also supports DXR Tier 1.1.
 
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XSX has DXR Tier 1.1 which improves RT efficiency. Turing RTX also supports DXR Tier 1.1.
Tier 1.1 is API/software/driver change, nothing changes in hardware.

DXR does not require hardware RT acceleration, technically. Based on GTXs' DXR support that does seem to be true (instructions/operations can be run on shaders). For any reasonable performance, of course hardware bits are needed.
 
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Impossible to say until the RTRT implementation gets detailed but if its tied to the amount of compute units each GPU has the series X has something like 44% more than the ps5.
 

Nahid070

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We do not know.

AMD, Microsoft and Sony have shared nothing useful for their RT implementations that would show how good it is. In fact, even what their actual hardware will do is an educated guess at this point based off AMD patents. We will get some idea when RDNA2 is launched. I would not expect to get a good idea from RDNA2 announcement or console releases. These will include technical details that help understand what their RT units do and 1st party test results which are obviously skewed but we need hardware in hand to test and quantify the performance.

If AMD is sane, their RT implementation will support DXR and same or similar Vulkan extensions as Nvidia's. We should be able to test and compare directly.
Thank you for your detailed reply! Although the UR engine 5 was looking good in PS5 for triangles mapping.. Can you give me any ideas about that compared to rtx 2080 ti?
Tia
 
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Thank you for your detailed reply! Although the UR engine 5 was looking good in PS5 for triangles mapping.. Can you give me any ideas about that compared to rtx 2080 ti?
Triangle mapping as shown in UE5 demo does not have much to do with RT (or AI). Epic does not seem to have many technical details available about Nanite but from what they have said the goal seems to be more about automatic asset and level-of-detail processing than anything else. It takes a highly detailed model with a lot of geometry and does it magic so that just enough of them remain on screen. This is normally done manually by developer (well... artist, designer, modeller) and the main selling point seems to be streamlining that process. This is an engine-level deal, so software. It should translate to all platforms it can run on (and UE runs on almost anything) with performance dependent on general GPU performance as usual.

PS5 GPU at max clocks is in RTX2080 range and XBX GPU is close to RTX2080Ti. Not necessarily an exact comparison because both RTX cards exceed their spec Boost Clocks in gaming and PS5 GPU will run at lower clocks while gaming. This is general performance, as said before, we do not know what RT performance will be like.

Impossible to say until the RTRT implementation gets detailed but if its tied to the amount of compute units each GPU has the series X has something like 44% more than the ps5.
There are some guesses that RDNA2 RT units could be in or tied to TMUs, not CUs.
 
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Thank you for your detailed reply! Although the UR engine 5 was looking good in PS5 for triangles mapping.. Can you give me any ideas about that compared to rtx 2080 ti?
Tia
It wouldn’t matter, UE5 demo was not using hardware ray tracing.
 
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It wouldn’t matter, UE5 demo was not using hardware ray tracing.
I bet it was. UE has added RT effects to the engine since RTX came out. Lumen definitely includes capabilities for RT and considering both consoles have RT hardware it is more than likely that RT was used. GI/AO/shadows are the likely suspects. There are some moments where you can spot delay in lighting when light source is moved, this is characteristic of temporal filtering that RTRT implementations tend to use.

Edit:
I was wrong, UE5 demo does not feature raytracing. Digital Foundry piece says it does not:
 
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I bet it was. UE has added RT effects to the engine since RTX came out. Lumen definitely includes capabilities for RT and considering both consoles have RT hardware it is more than likely that RT was used. GI/AO/shadows are the likely suspects. There are some moments where you can spot delay in lighting when light source is moved, this is characteristic of temporal filtering that RTRT implementations tend to use.

Edit:
I was wrong, UE5 demo does not feature raytracing. Digital Foundry piece says it does not:
I mean yeah, I wouldn’t just put it there if I wasn’t sure. My fault for not linking article though.
 

Nahid070

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Triangle mapping as shown in UE5 demo does not have much to do with RT (or AI). Epic does not seem to have many technical details available about Nanite but from what they have said the goal seems to be more about automatic asset and level-of-detail processing than anything else. It takes a highly detailed model with a lot of geometry and does it magic so that just enough of them remain on screen. This is normally done manually by developer (well... artist, designer, modeller) and the main selling point seems to be streamlining that process. This is an engine-level deal, so software. It should translate to all platforms it can run on (and UE runs on almost anything) with performance dependent on general GPU performance as usual.

PS5 GPU at max clocks is in RTX2080 range and XBX GPU is close to RTX2080Ti. Not necessarily an exact comparison because both RTX cards exceed their spec Boost Clocks in gaming and PS5 GPU will run at lower clocks while gaming. This is general performance, as said before, we do not know what RT performance will be like.

There are some guesses that RDNA2 RT units could be in or tied to TMUs, not CUs.
Another thing is, after the PS5 UR engine 5 teaser released most of Playstation players saying that the performance could possible because of the good speed of pcie gen 4 ssd.
Is it really possible for a speedy ssd to do something like that other than loading programs faster by a minimal margin and transfer all usable data at the beginning to the system or video memory?
 
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Most engines use texture streaming or asset streaming of some sort so if a developer codes specifically for the playstation 5 storage speeds it could be beneficial for that.


I don't see cross platform developers doing this unless it's super easy though.
 
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I thought I remember reading something about AMD stating their ray tracing will use a hardware and software combination instead of trying to brute force hardware it only like tensor cores do.

Honestly the most exciting software is DLSS 2.0 and how AMD responds to that, I think we can all agree it's time to focus on DLSS 2.0 and a universal open source 3.0 variant that both AMD and Nvidia work on together and all future games require it that run on either platform... that would be a dream come true. Man the performance level of Control on DLSS 2.0 is absolutely mind blowing and still gorgeous to look at. This is the future there is no doubt about it. A shame this technology is not more polished in time for the next gen consoles, otherwise we could seriously be looking at 4k 120hz console games - DLSS enabled and upscaled from 1080p. It's really not even that far fetched of a dream, DLSS 2.0 has already shown us as much.
 

Nahid070

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Most engines use texture streaming or asset streaming of some sort so if a developer codes specifically for the playstation 5 storage speeds it could be beneficial for that.


I don't see cross platform developers doing this unless it's super easy though.
Well. So usual bandwidth of today's SSD isn't enough for that? As system memory comes in the first place for rendering data directly to all processing units.. And there RAM is way faster than even pcie gen 4 nvme ssd..
 
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On PC they code with hdd in mind so typically the only benefit ssd give us is loading times and maybe slightly better assets streaming.


It's a pretty big unknown at this point but my guess is people on hdd and sata ssd may have lesser performance or more lod issues a couple years from now.
 
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I would think the move to SSD.. if most have not adopted, will become ten fold.
 

Nahid070

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On PC they code with hdd in mind so typically the only benefit ssd give us is loading times and maybe slightly better assets streaming.


It's a pretty big unknown at this point but my guess is people on hdd and sata ssd may have lesser performance or more lod issues a couple years from now.
What if we use pcie gen 4 nvme m.2 ssd as boot driver and install all our application in there?

I got a conception that is I think permanent storage usually transfer all usable data in the system memory according to the need of a system at beginning, then storage has nothing to do much with the performance rather than delivering few more data if needed in term of a good amount of system memory which is lot faster..
I want to know if it's right or wrong..
 
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Most engines use texture streaming or asset streaming of some sort so if a developer codes specifically for the playstation 5 storage speeds it could be beneficial for that.
I don't see cross platform developers doing this unless it's super easy though.
There are specific improvements to how NVMe drives can be accessed in PS5 (and XSX) plus the drives are fast. Still, the base functionality is useful across different configurations and the specific speeds and amounts of data are a matter of optimization, not the engine. Texture and asset streaming is done by practically all engines today.
I thought I remember reading something about AMD stating their ray tracing will use a hardware and software combination instead of trying to brute force hardware it only like tensor cores do.
Raytracing is already using a combination of hardware and software, the component added recently is hardware in form of RT cores in Nvidia's RTX cards. Brute force or not brute force is a matter of software more than hardware as we are not likely to see sufficient hardware for brute forcing RTRT any time soon. Tensor cores do not do raytracing. These can be used for either filtering or upscaling, both of which can be used as part of raytracing sections of rendering but are not inherently tied to it.
 
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PS5 GPU at max clocks is in RTX2080 range and XBX GPU is close to RTX2080Ti. Not necessarily an exact comparison because both RTX cards exceed their spec Boost Clocks in gaming and PS5 GPU will run at lower clocks while gaming. This is general performance, as said before, we do not know what RT performance will be like.
I highly doubt its gonna be in that range of performance and i would bet RT won't be up there either since its first rls of RT on AMD side so.
 
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On PC they code with hdd in mind so typically the only benefit ssd give us is loading times and maybe slightly better assets streaming.


It's a pretty big unknown at this point but my guess is people on hdd and sata ssd may have lesser performance or more lod issues a couple years from now.
We already have several examples of games with streamed content that benefit massively from SSD or are straight up unplayable (stuttery) on HDDs, especially slower ones. I don't see any reason for this trend to take a different turn. After all, why not use the storage medium more to achieve efficiency in the pipeline. It doesn't have to push everything into RAM straight away. We now have fast internal storage devices readily available.

I only applaud this because it will also finally make pcie SSDs useful and not just wasted additional speed and bw. All for it if that can push gaming to a higher level... and this is also a development that needs to begin in a console and not the PC. It needs to become a norm for gaming if we want this to gain traction. In a way, this is an example of the beneficial relationship between consoles and the PC, even if they share target audience. A bunch of PC users already have the hardware. No chicken/egg problems and you will only need to expand or replace one storage device to buy in as well. This means adoption will be much faster than for example this RT affair, where even today there is still only one very weak range of cards capable.

I highly doubt its gonna be in that range of performance and i would bet RT won't be up there either since its first rls of RT on AMD side so.
Well... RT is mostly a software affair, once the hardware resources are available its just a matter of programming, tweaking, finding the right balance in IQ and perf. We're also seeing a big efficiency push when it comes to displaying the viewport, for example with this 'render only what you see' stuff. Detail and fidelity is becoming extremely dynamic.

This is part of what I was waiting for when Turing launched, and was missing at the time. Nobody mentioned stuff like this, or any roadmap to a solution to the explosive increase in render requirements.
 
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We already have several examples of games with streamed content that benefit massively from SSD or are straight up unplayable (stuttery) on HDDs, especially slower ones.
@Vayra86, SSDs already benefit from this and it does not have to be build for SSDs specifically. All the new console generation will do is raise the lower limit of OK storage performance. Current console generation is built with HDD in mind.
 
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