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Renoir laptops never got high end GPU's for reasons other than a weak PCIe

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Please take this with a grain of salt.

What surprises me the most is that Cezanne still is PCIe 3 x8.. the rest is business as usual. :roll:

 
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I thought it was obvious, there was a conspiracy behind this to block AMD from high end GPUs
 
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It's the usual Intel contra-revenue. The same reason Dell won't offer an Optiplex 5xxx Ryzen system with more than 4 cores.

Sadly the only way I can see to suddenly break this, AMD would have to have a mobile chip that's like 200% faster then Intel with 10 hr battery life without needing extensive chipset tweaks. THEN be lucky enough that some laptop OEM (like clevo or MSI) finds that compelling enough to endure the resultant stinkeye from Intel (so probably not clevo or MSI - they would lose "subsidy" / "discounts" from Intel to NOT use AMD - and that is SIGNIFICANT money) could build and release such a thing - and it be undeniably faster and make the big OEMs on Intel's payroll look stupid.

This is unlikely to happen - if only because jumping x2 ahead of the competition performance wise, while keeping battery life on wintel platform to beat the 10 year head start Intel has optimizing laptop chipset power under Windows (which, no sarcasm, is credit to Intel) is unreasonable to expect. But sadly that's what it would take for John Wholesaler to take notice (it would have to be sooo much faster that it would make them look stupid for staying with Intel)

Also I hate that this makes me sound like some crazy anti-Intel conspiracy theorist. But that's how the game works. While I may think this is playing dirty, it's also VERY SMART and Intel is no fool.

On a positive note though, like the partnership with Microsoft with the Surface lines really is HUGE that even though the initial Ryzen Surface models kinda suck (using old gen Ryzen) the fact that MS was open to this is a great sign that at least MS is open for trying to get AMD chipset power perf optimized. Because the lessons learned with Ryzen surface directly translate to ALL promontory platform.

Or if you want to get really out there... if MS ever wanted to toy with making a(nother) ARM Surface, I'm pretty sure there's company out there that'd be more than happy to (keep) working with them. ;p
 
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Nothing new, whenever Intel and Nvidia can’t compete they resort to this kind of stuff.
 
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Nothing new, whenever Intel and Nvidia can’t compete they resort to this kind of stuff.
Well it's weird, cause I don't know why nVidia would benefit from this, but I'm obviously missing some angle. I mean it's not like Intel and nVidia are cozy bed buddies either. There would have to be some sort of leverage to influence laptop maker on "well, why not use a Radeon if nVidia sandbags" but then .. I haven't kept up with Radeon mobile. I suppose right now there really isn't a comparable perf Radeon for the power to match 2060m ? I honestly haven't kept up in the mobile space.

Not trying to defend anyone. I mean, the whole "Gen 3 PCIe x8 is a restriction for a 2060" ... like.. seriously? Sorry marketing folks, desktop 2060 is a low end card, if an "old" 1080ti still keeps 97% of it perf through a 4x Gen 2 slot, not sure I buy that excuse. (trying to find source, but i'm pretty sure a Gen3 x8 slot is MORE than enough for even a desktop 2060, let alone a nerfed mobile version).

EDIT ADD:

ARGH: so... I hate it that - technically - they are probably right (which I'm sure they knew cause legal reasons) but in reality it's not enough to care.


So a GTX 1080 is a bit faster than a 2060, even if minor.... it does indeed show some bottlenecking. Technically. Enough that... they're not lying. Legally. grrr
In reality it's still BS, cause the (AT MOST) 5fps you "lose" from the bottleneck would be more than made up by the +xx fps the next model up would offer.

I dunno, maybe the angle I'm missing is if you're short of GPU allocation, you'd rather give AMD the finger rather than Intel? I dunno. ugh
 
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Intel mobile 10th gen is faster than Renoir at gaming; with the same mobile 2060 at 90W TDP, 10750H (6cores) is 7% faster than 4800H (8 cores). Renoir is more suited for workstation laptop while Intel 10th Gen is more suited for gaming.

Not to mention that Intel mobile 10th gen can be undervolted to improve performance, some laptop came with Intel CPU pre-undervolted already (ThrottleStop is still way better).

With Cezanne, AMD is sure the capture the performance crown at 1080p, therefore it make sense to have the high end Ampere mobile option with Ryzen 5000 laptops.
 
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It's the same PCI-E limit as Picasso: Dedicated video card slot limited to 8 lanes.
 
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Intel mobile 10th gen is faster than Renoir at gaming; with the same mobile 2060 at 90W TDP, 10750H (6cores) is 7% faster than 4800H (8 cores). Renoir is more suited for workstation laptop while Intel 10th Gen is more suited for gaming.

Not to mention that Intel mobile 10th gen can be undervolted to improve performance, some laptop came with Intel CPU pre-undervolted already (ThrottleStop is still way better).

With Cezanne, AMD is sure the capture the performance crown at 1080p, therefore it make sense to have the high end Ampere mobile option with Ryzen 5000 laptops.

This cannot be ignored. AMD is not exactly giving priority to mobile at all. Not for CPU, not for IGP and not for GPU.

They make great server chips that work fantastically in many other use cases. They don't make the best mobile chips. We can whine about companies kissing the old boys network ass, but there is a definite competitive gap here, especially in a form factor where every % per W matters.

At the same time you can see the market share for AMD's Zen chips is on the rise in virtually every other market segment. I don't buy the usual rhetoric of AMD being the sad puppy. If they have better product, they will get their share. Maybe not the first gen, but certainly, as numbers show, if they can keep the momentum and provide the reassurance that in ten years these chips will still be relevant. Companies buy a functional component, and that includes a long period of support. They want that certainty so they won't jump ship directly.
 
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This cannot be ignored. AMD is not exactly giving priority to mobile at all. Not for CPU, not for IGP and not for GPU.
Well I mean, in AMD's defense, and also to Intel's credit - Intel has done a LOT of work with OEMs AND microsoft (windows drivers) and honestly pretty awesome with linux driver work in optimizing their chipset/platform power. Yea we all got mad all those years where Intel just kinda sat there and milked it processor side (the the reverse argument is - AMD was down and not there to push them) at least their engineers for the chipset/ platform were still super industrious scraping out a watt here and there on the chipset side. So credit to Intel for that.

Again, to be fair to Intel, AMD had to prove itself for a few gens of Ryzen to OEMs - especially in mobile. Like now that it looks like AMD is back solid in desktop, and server - and they don't have some franken platform (like the piledriver APUs) and Ryzen arch isn't going to change crazy off the rails - AMD can offer a competitive and establish mobile platform worth building on for OEMs they now have a chance.

That said, that still puts AMD behind Intel by like 6 years but again, that entire Ryzen Microsoft Surface project I think really is a jumpstart on that effort.

I'm not trying to evangelize Intel, but they really do deserve credit for focusing on reducing x86 PLATFORM power - for lack of better word. Like, all of the chipset, monitor, keyboard, all that "everything else" things in a mobile computer - like, hammering that stuff down power wise really adds up. It's not that AMD is "bad" it's just, I think this is the first time since the K6-III+ where they actually have had a "general" core design that could seriously be put in a battery powered laptop, let alone over a long enough time where OEMs couldn't write it off as a fluke. Yea they had the APU's before, but it's like OEMs treated those like Intel Atom SOCs - it was a package deal we throw together and toss out the door, not a "platform" to consider optimizing over multiple product cycles.

Sorry this was a ramble. I could be totally wrong, but Intel's delays in process node combined with AMD's amazing execution has given AMD a chance to lodge in some CPU mindshare to the general public in the first time in like 20 years. It just sucks that this time around, Joan and John Q Public honestly don't care about PC's, just that their portable iWidget get them on facebook quicker. *sigh*
 
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I think mobile is going to be increasingly less keen on doing much of any local processing anyway. And it might very well be true AMD knows this and is therefore also giving mobile the least of attention. Their money is in enterprise, and some mindshare in consumer desktop. Like you say by the time they have secured their place in mobile, ARM might have taken over the segment altogether. I think x86 will remain the powerhouse for non-mobile computing, local processing power, and a segment of gaming. None of the specific demands those segments have are served by mobile right now - not on ARM and not on x86 laptops. Well maybe gaming and workstation... but even then a laptop is a formfactor of limitations where ARM will have more wiggle room.

Additionally I wouldn't deem it impossible for especially GPU, but also CPU chips to get larger footprints. Smaller nodes are presenting ever bigger problems in every single way and if you don't absolutely need to be small, you can be big and have your unique selling point in providing major performance gaps to mobile chips. For CPU this has already become a norm (Threadripper). GPU dies are next.
 

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This is why AMD wants to make good APU's, and make their own GPUs to pair with them - they know they're getting shafted


Then when they offer good all in-house products, the competition will suddenly want a slice of the revenue
 
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Well it's weird, cause I don't know why nVidia would benefit from this, but I'm obviously missing some angle. I mean it's not like Intel and nVidia are cozy bed buddies either.

Nvidia knew that sooner or later AMD will have their own really fast dedicate GPUs to be put in these laptops along side their CPUs and be able to offer much better deals to OEMs and consumers in general.

This is a mind share battle, the more Nvidia can keep the AMD brand away from the high end/gaming laptops the better they'll fare when that happens.

If you are an average consumer and you never see AMD options being paired with high end GPUs you'll assume they aren't that great.
 
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Sadly in my super pragmatic mind, "we" (PC enthusiast) are already done. One of the most brilliant things Microsoft did was... the entire DirectX project. It's not just that yea games are awesome, it's that - this is how you get mindshare for the next generation of users for your platform. I mean, come on - kids don't grow up inspired to write the sucessor to visicalc (well, i mean, except that special one ;p) but like, it's inspirational and pushes the platform. Today we don't run Windows cause we love windows, we run it cause we can assume it will run anything we reasonably would want, and bonus Microsoft's backward compatibility honestly something amazing that i never understood idiots bashing.

Anyway back to point... kids now? It's all tablets, phones ... web apps. We've lost a generation!

And then the beginning years ago with the crypto mining BS cornholing our hobby (sorry, but crypto never gave anything back to hobby it raped - PC gaming - and honestly, they could care less if PC gaming burns and dies - it's all about the money fuck everyone)

and now the TSMC bottleneck (not enough 7nm capacity) like... I honestly didn't expect the resurgence of crypto to rape our hobby again, but with covid, the 7nm shortage, and another year of this like...

The PC gaming hobby is going to end up like Star Wars figures. Like 10 years after everyone got bitter and gave up, all these video cards and crap will dump out of the market as the crypto crowd is done squeezing their money outta em, but it will have been so long nobody will be left to remember or even care.
 
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Intel mobile 10th gen is faster than Renoir at gaming; with the same mobile 2060 at 90W TDP, 10750H (6cores) is 7% faster than 4800H (8 cores). Renoir is more suited for workstation laptop while Intel 10th Gen is more suited for gaming.
The AMD CPU also uses less power, which in turn can benefit GPU performance when enabling overboost. With overboost enabled, both machines actually uses the same amount of power.
1611142695006.png


With overboost enabled, the difference is now 3 %

3 % slower, for a machine the cost 6 % less. Big deal.
1611142330823.png

Looking at 1 % low FPS, it's now a tie.
1611142411741.png

Productivity is a different story.
1611142574574.png


This cannot be ignored. AMD is not exactly giving priority to mobile at all. Not for CPU, not for IGP and not for GPU.
Not really. The 15 W Renoir still can't be touched by anything Intel throws at it, even after a year. It's still the 8 core 15 CPU available, and the second generation is coming next month. The Intel counterpart is still a 4 core here. AMD has never had a mobile CPU even close to this.

Don't disregard it just because it's 15 W. It may not be what you and I are looking for, but saying that AMD isn't giving it priority is just wrong.

Sadly the only way I can see to suddenly break this, AMD would have to have a mobile chip that's like 200% faster then Intel with 10 hr battery life without needing extensive chipset tweaks. THEN be lucky enough that some laptop OEM (like clevo or MSI) finds that compelling enough to endure the resultant stinkeye from Intel (so probably not clevo or MSI - they would lose "subsidy" / "discounts" from Intel to NOT use AMD - and that is SIGNIFICANT money) could build and release such a thing - and it be undeniably faster and make the big OEMs on Intel's payroll look stupid.

This is unlikely to happen...
I guess you didn't read the link, or have seen the latest APU presentation. Mobile RTX 3080 is coming to AMD laptops, next month. Availability? Who knows.. :D
 
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The AMD CPU also uses less power, which in turn can benefit GPU performance when enabling overboost. With overboost enabled, both machines actually uses the same amount of power.
View attachment 184776

With overboost enabled, the difference is now 3 %

3 % slower, for a machine the cost 6 % less. Big deal.
View attachment 184773
Looking at 1 % low FPS, it's now a tie.
View attachment 184774
Productivity is a different story.
View attachment 184775


Not really. The 15 W Renoir still can't be touched by anything Intel throws at it, even after a year. It's still the 8 core 15 CPU available, and the second generation is coming next month. The Intel counterpart is still a 4 core here. AMD has never had a mobile CPU even close to this.

Don't disregard it just because it's 15 W. It may not be what you and I are looking for, but saying that AMD isn't giving it priority is just wrong.


I guess you didn't read the link, or have seen the latest APU presentation. Mobile RTX 3080 is coming to AMD laptops, next month. Availability? Who knows.. :D
Sorry but their G-series with IGP is still trailing development, and mobile has only just now become even remotely interesting.

This is not a long term presence. They just got started. A minor, almost margin of error gap in efficiency or performance is not going to dethrone a partner who has been reliably providing and improving product lines for over a decade.

Customers think the same way: they are not following tech news and know Renoir has come this close. They will only open their eyes if marketing shows them AMD has a significant lead on mobile. And they really don't. And even the more tech savvy users, the gaming laptop/workstation audience, has a similar mindshare for Intel as the HEDT or gaming king.

If AMD had made a mobile-first CPU architecture, they would have owned this segment already. But they didn't. They made a jack-of-all-trades, master of yields architecture.

And on top of this... isn't AMD also capable of producing their own GPU? How the fuck are they not feeding the market with mobile ones?! This just circles back to the eternal AMD-underdog-circlejerk where lots of puppy eyes totally ignore the fact AMD is not providing either. (not saying you are - but the gist of that article certainly inspires it)
 
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The AMD CPU also uses less power, which in turn can benefit GPU performance when enabling overboost. With overboost enabled, both machines actually uses the same amount of power.

With overboost enabled, the difference is now 3 %

3 % slower, for a machine the cost 6 % less. Big deal.

Looking at 1 % low FPS, it's now a tie.

Productivity is a different story.

Untitled.png


The cost of running 110W on the 2060 is that it's running at 86C, which is the soft thermal limit (max temperature for Turing GPU is 88C), this is testing at 21-22C ambient.
Incidentally max temperature for Ampere is 93C, so there is more wiggle room for OEM to play with thermal. What this means is OEM can save on R&D cost and use the same heatsinks on their Intel or AMD models, just that the AMD ones allow GPU to run at higher TDP and not thermal throttle like crazy.
 
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Sorry but their G-series with IGP is still trailing development,
Compared to what? They still have the fastest desktop IGP, no matter how much you want it to be three times faster.
This is not a long term presence. They just got started.
Now you're switching form not giving priority to not having a long term presence. AMD started from the bottom and it's all their own fault. Everyone knows that.
Customers think the same way: they are not following tech news and know Renoir has come this close. They will only open their eyes if marketing shows them AMD has a significant lead on mobile.
Nope, you're just making that up. It holds true for f*nboys, I give you that, although they probably won't jump ship either way. Price is just as important as performance, and that's what put Ryzen on the map in the first place. Bang per buck, without being the performance king in everything. Even the 1600AF is still on todays amazon top ten CPU list.

Just look at the Desktop sales amazon. This is from last spring, six months before Ryzen 5000. The not-so-exciting 3200G and the 2600 outsold EVERY Intel CPU in the US, kind of unbelievable. I seriously doubt we can let the 3950X *halo* take credit for this, as no AMD CPU could beat Intel in gaming.
1611146355122.png

Besides, AMD took huge market shares from Intel even before Ryzen 3000, when it was 8 cores maximum.
If AMD had made a mobile-first CPU architecture, they would have owned this segment already.
Probably not, see OP. If Renoir was like you described, i.e better, the OP situation would have been even more relevant for its competitors.
And on top of this... isn't AMD also capable of producing their own GPU? How the fuck are they not feeding the market with mobile ones?!
Who knows. This goes both ways tho (and I know we're both off topic here). Why wasn't the 14 nm Rocket Lake launched two years ago? Why is Tiger Lake still only 4C?
Yeah, I know why, the eternal Intel-stuck-on-fourteennanometer++++++-tennanometer-hasn't-worked-for years-BUT---------and-hear-me-out---------::::::::::::-tomorrow-it-will-w0rKz!!111
-oh-noes-it-diduhn't------again-for-the sevenhundredth-time-----sad-face-circlejerk.
This just circles back to the eternal AMD-underdog-circlejerk where lots of puppy eyes totally ignore the fact AMD is not providing either. (not saying you are - but the gist of that article certainly inspires it)
It does, but that's off topic here. AMD laptops should be able to use Nvidia GPU's, and AMD's lacking mobile GPU lineup doesn't change that fact.
The lack of AMD GPU's is simply a different topic, and an important one, but it makes no sense to bring it up in the very same article.
 
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Compared to what? They still have the fastest desktop IGP, no matter how much you want it to be three times faster.

Now you're switching form not giving priority to not having a long term presence. AMD started from the bottom and it's all their own fault. Everyone knows that.

Nope, you're just making that up. It holds true for f*nboys, I give you that, although they probably won't jump ship either way. Price is just as important as performance, and that's what put Ryzen on the map in the first place. Bang per buck, without being the performance king in everything. Even the 1600AF is still on todays amazon top ten CPU list.

Just look at the Desktop sales amazon. This is from last spring, six months before Ryzen 5000. The not-so-exciting 3200G and the 2600 outsold EVERY Intel CPU in the US, kind of unbelievable. I seriously doubt we can let the 3950X *halo* take credit for this, as no AMD CPU could beat Intel in gaming.
View attachment 184783
Besides, AMD took huge market shares from Intel even before Ryzen 3000, when it was 8 cores maximum.

Probably not, see OP. If Renoir was like you described, i.e better, the OP situation would have been even more relevant for its competitors.

Who knows. This goes both ways tho (and I know we're both off topic here). Why wasn't the 14 nm Rocket Lake launched two years ago? Why is Tiger Lake still only 4C?
Yeah, I know why, the eternal Intel-stuck-on-fourteennanometer++++++-tennanometer-hasn't-worked-for years-BUT---------and-hear-me-out---------::::::::::::-tomorrow-it-will-w0rKz!!111
-oh-noes-it-diduhn't------again-for-the sevenhundredth-time-----sad-face-circlejerk.

It does, but that's off topic here. AMD laptops should be able to use Nvidia GPU's, and AMD's lacking mobile GPU lineup doesn't change that fact.
The lack of AMD GPU's is simply a different topic, and an important one, but it makes no sense to bring it up in the very same article.

Fair counter arguments, but none of them conclusive. Dont get me wrong, I too believe there are under-the-counter agreements in place however informal or implicit they may be. But most of those stem from a mutually beneficial relationship and if AMD wants to enter that arena it needs a long breath. In the end this is just how lots of business works and is being done. You get trusted partners over time and you don't easily let them go.

In terns of priority & long presence and how they relate: - if AMD already had several great mobile generations things would have looked different by now. I'm not quite buying a grand conspiracy to keep AMD out of business, just yet. At the same time, if this is actually true, I'd expect action from AMD, not some news outlet. Surely they have some sort of strategy in that event, after what has transpired in the past...?
 
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Well it's weird, cause I don't know why nVidia would benefit from this, but I'm obviously missing some angle. I mean it's not like Intel and nVidia are cozy bed buddies either. There would have to be some sort of leverage to influence laptop maker on "well, why not use a Radeon if nVidia sandbags" but then .. I haven't kept up with Radeon mobile. I suppose right now there really isn't a comparable perf Radeon for the power to match 2060m ? I honestly haven't kept up in the mobile space.

Not trying to defend anyone. I mean, the whole "Gen 3 PCIe x8 is a restriction for a 2060" ... like.. seriously? Sorry marketing folks, desktop 2060 is a low end card, if an "old" 1080ti still keeps 97% of it perf through a 4x Gen 2 slot, not sure I buy that excuse. (trying to find source, but i'm pretty sure a Gen3 x8 slot is MORE than enough for even a desktop 2060, let alone a nerfed mobile version).

EDIT ADD:

ARGH: so... I hate it that - technically - they are probably right (which I'm sure they knew cause legal reasons) but in reality it's not enough to care.


So a GTX 1080 is a bit faster than a 2060, even if minor.... it does indeed show some bottlenecking. Technically. Enough that... they're not lying. Legally. grrr
In reality it's still BS, cause the (AT MOST) 5fps you "lose" from the bottleneck would be more than made up by the +xx fps the next model up would offer.

I dunno, maybe the angle I'm missing is if you're short of GPU allocation, you'd rather give AMD the finger rather than Intel? I dunno. ugh
I agree with the direction of your performance analysis, however, does it account for most mobile laptops running with Optimus (and whatever AMD calls their version of it)? In those, the dGPU doesn't output any video at all, and the framebuffer is sent back to the IGP via the PCIe bus. Even 8 bit 1080p 60Hz is nearing 4Gbits, before the overhead of PCIe, timing (and its affect on bufferbloat), etc.

I know, from my experience with eGPUs, that running things on the internal laptop display (eGPU feeding the data back to the IGP) vs running on an external display (eGPU directly driving a desktop monitor), there was a noticeable performance difference. In testing from eGPU.io, it was ~30% (eGPU Performance: Internal vs. External Display - eGPU.io).

In my case, it was in the 20% range with a GTX 1050 eGPU. Of course, those are eGPUs are running over TB3, which is limited to being less than a PCIe 3.0 x4 setup.

Then, we have to consider something, which eGPU.io and TPU both failed to test. Effect on 1% lows/mins.

Meanwhile, even on the worst Intel H series laptop, we got at least 20 lanes. 16 to dGPU, 4 to the chipset (shared among NVMe, WiFi, ethernet, SD, cellular, etc).

My guess as to why AMD 5000 sees a turnaround: sure, Intel might be a part of it, but I doubt it's as direct as decades past (discounts and direct payments). Doesn't make sense for Nvidia to part of it (remember, Intel and Nvidia have went to legal war already, with Nvidia losing their x86 license in the process and Intel being forced to license Nvidia GPU IP for a few years - Intel changed to licensing AMD GPU IP as soon as they could). I think Intel's platforms are just so weak in 2021, that there is no other choice for Nvidia. They have to promote AMD or be forced out of the laptop segment. Tiger Lake H (not the H35, which is a rebranded Tiger Lake U) is still nowhere to be seen, and rumors have it being Intel Xe-only for dGPU (probably due to limited volume, IMO). Tiger Lake U is laughably outclassed (even when rebranded as Tiger Lake H35), and it has the same bandwidth limitation. Skylake+++ (Vomit Lake) is just plain unacceptable in 2020, nevermind 2021.

Given the choices available in 2021, AMD 5000 is the only way forward for Nvidia. Going to be a tough few years for Nvidia laptop products, IMO. AMD never signed the agreement to keep PCIe on their APUs (part of the Intel-Nvidia lawsuit settlements, was Intel had to keep some PCIe lanes on their mobile chips). They can very easily excise Nvidia from their lineup and only allow for Infinity Architecture (née Infinity Fabric).
 
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Like the article says, this seems to be a thing of the past as it doesn't affect upcoming Ryzen 5000 APU's.

Last years APU's were all sold out anyway, the laptop makers could have raked in a bit more money from higher end SKU's, but AMD sold out either way. Renoir didn't even go retail desktop. In theory, AMD could've done better, but in reality there's obviously never enough TSMC 7 nm chips.

 
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